GNOME 3.6 released
Posted Sep 27, 2012 13:59 UTC (Thu)
by kragil (guest, #34373)
[Link] (16 responses)
Posted Sep 27, 2012 14:28 UTC (Thu)
by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118)
[Link] (15 responses)
Posted Sep 27, 2012 14:51 UTC (Thu)
by jensend (guest, #1385)
[Link] (14 responses)
Posted Sep 27, 2012 21:21 UTC (Thu)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (13 responses)
What is really most people bitch about amounts to in terms of configuration is that Gnome doesn't have a pretty dialog with a bunch of nice buttons and sliders like some other desktops do and that there is nothing you can usefully do by right clicking on the panel.
Posted Sep 27, 2012 23:35 UTC (Thu)
by bronson (subscriber, #4806)
[Link] (12 responses)
It has nothing to do with prettiness. For better or for worse, if it's not a part of the default desktop, then most people won't see it.
Posted Sep 28, 2012 14:07 UTC (Fri)
by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963)
[Link]
Posted Sep 28, 2012 20:13 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (10 responses)
It's still configurable. If you want to change it you can change it. And I _do_ change my fonts actually.
The way I figure it is that if people are going to complain they might as well do it in a constructive, thoughtful, and accurate manner. If you want to complain that there is no easy way to change the fonts by default, then complain about that. (As mentioned by the other user Linux is the only OS that seems to have issues with this. Neither Windows or OS X provides any sane way to configure fonts desktop-wide. Usually all font configuration is done on a per-application basis.)
If you want to have a nice dialog with all sorts of buttons, drop down dialogs, sliders, and all sorts of fancy wiz-bang drag and drop configuration options... then say you want that. People need to admit that they want a GUI configuration tool that is pretty and easily accessible; and that being made to install any software to tweak your system is unacceptable.
However saying that the system is unconfigurable is really missing what people are actually irritated about. It's very configurable. It's just that they don't like the manner at which it's configured.
Fundamentally it really boils down to a sense of empowerment. Nobody wants to mention it because 'feeling empowered' is a bit of a taboo subject among technical computer type people. They want to have the feeling that they are in control and a few whiz-bang sliders can provide that.
This is what needs to be talked about to improve Gnome. Admitting what is really going on and what people are really concerned about is what is going to solve problems and avoid endless trolling and trotting out useless tropes every time Gnome is mentioned in passing in any article anywhere.
Posted Sep 28, 2012 23:21 UTC (Fri)
by sjj (guest, #2020)
[Link] (8 responses)
OK, I'm done discussing Gnome. You want me to stay outside.
Posted Sep 29, 2012 3:08 UTC (Sat)
by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963)
[Link] (5 responses)
For example in the land of iOS we see people complaining about their Maps application being completely broken after Apple's recent screw up, so they're now missing essential functionality. With GNOME 3 nine times out of ten people complain either about having to use a separate program to tweak some of their settings or having to spend 40 seconds to install an extension that changes the behavior of the Suspend/Shut Down button. The horror!
If you do have useful and positive suggestions to make don't feel discouraged; people are listening. For example, the message tray in 3.6 is proof of that.
Posted Sep 29, 2012 10:06 UTC (Sat)
by Rehdon (guest, #45440)
[Link] (4 responses)
Having "to use a separate program to tweak some of their settings or having to spend 40 seconds to install an extension" is perfectly fine by me, but a) when you have to do that many many times, just to reinstate what should be considered basic functionality, you wonder if it's still worth it or if there's something really wrong about that thing you installed (that's why I ditched Unity too, btw, I could configure it to something more fitting to my needs, but it turned out to be really a hassle), and b) for a desktop environment supposed to just work right out of the box to cater for less computer-savvy people, that's just ridiculous.
Finally, while it's good that people are listening and that they realized that some specific features were done wrong and are now fixed (sort of), criticism aimed to the fundamental principles of the Gnome Shell UX have been so far been ignored or dismissed. See below GhePeU's comment about Gnome 3 workflow:
"I'm constantly switching between windows, creating new windows and destroying old windows, and all this actions now involve launching disruptive overlays and clicking around two, three or four times until I find what I wanted to see because a simple per-workspace task manager is apparently too complicated and multiple windows sharing a desktop is against the new fullscreen paradigm, not to speak of the always unpredictably changing number and order of the workspaces."
That's the most important criticism that's been levelled to the Gnome devs by lots and lots of people: the new workflow is unpractical and ineffective for us. I could elaborate on this, but it's already been done in hundreds of forum posts and scores of blog entries. Can you point me to any sign of "listening" by the Gnome devs? So far what I've got is "you have to get used to it" (tried, didn't work, and in any case you're doing it backwords) or "if Gnome Shell doesn't work for you there are so many other desktop environments among which to choose" (which is a) a just more polite way to say "fsck off", and b) so ironic, since the very birth of Gnome 3 contributed to a slew of Gnome 2/3 forks ...).
I would love to see some form of "listening", but so far I noticed none, on the contrary some UI decisions are again going in a direction that I consider deeply flawed (separate menus for applications??? really?). Which is why I'm among those who voted with their feet and switched to something else: Cinnamon in my case; still following Gnome 3 development as that's the base for Cinnamon, but that's about it.
Rehdon
Posted Sep 29, 2012 15:17 UTC (Sat)
by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963)
[Link] (3 responses)
It does work out of the box for less computer-savvy people. Both my mom & dad use GNOME 3 and they don't even have tweak-tool or dconf-editor installed on their systems. They never asked for anything that would require it either. (And a little anecdote: they both learned about suspending over shutting down their laptops thanks to GNOME 3).
As for your workflow related problem: some workflows people learned in past environments simply don't work in GNOME 3 and never will. For instance, there are people that store dozens of documents or application launchers on their desktop. You could tweak GNOME 3 to poorly support that (up until 3.4), but ultimately that's not what it was designed for. It's not going to provide a great experience for users who insist on working that way, and the GNOME devs are fine with that I would imagine. They're not really trying to provide software that instantly works just like whatever users are currently used to; they're taking some steps in new directions, and some of that is going to pay off wonderfully, and some of it will need adjustments.
I'm familiar with Windows, OS X and GNOME 2 and still use them in a professional environment. For me, the experience provided by GNOME 3 with the overview, dynamic workspace management and integrated search for launching apps and documents is unmatched.
Posted Sep 29, 2012 19:56 UTC (Sat)
by Rehdon (guest, #45440)
[Link] (2 responses)
So the Gnome designers wanted to explore new directions? Sounds great, but:
- where are the usability studies proving that their approach is sound? where's the theory? f.i. from what little UI theory I know, hiding stuff from the user is bad, so why so many things (from overlay mode to the infamous press-alt-to-show shutdown dialogue) aren't immediately visible in Gnome Shell? where are the real users' tests showing that the initial design was actually sensible?
Admittedly, the last question is more Kung Pow than Gnome Shell related ;) but that's just to highlight how sometimes all of this looks a bit "unreal" to me. No offense meant, but I don't see any "big design" here, just a bunch of different ideas, some good some very less so, mixed together, prettified on the visual level and then unloaded on the unsuspecting masses. Not the way to bring "a free and open computing environment to everyone" IMHO.
Rehdon
Posted Sep 29, 2012 22:31 UTC (Sat)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link] (1 responses)
What's wrong with Classic mode?
Posted Sep 30, 2012 14:20 UTC (Sun)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
Posted Sep 29, 2012 10:20 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
I happen to think that this is a bad thing, but of course it is necessarily subjective. Apple stuff takes almost every option away from you, and people seem to like it.
Posted Oct 1, 2012 13:56 UTC (Mon)
by sorpigal (guest, #36106)
[Link]
Posted Sep 29, 2012 16:14 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
That's just crazy. Not sure about OS X, but Windows included this ability since Windows95. Perhaps even in Windows 3.x, but I'm not sure. Not all programs respect these setting, that's true, some offer their own customization tools - but is it any different from Linux? Bingo. That's as with the cake mixes: they often don't include some ingredients (like dry egg, for example) and ask you to add that before baking simply to make sure people participate in the "creation" process.
Posted Sep 27, 2012 14:43 UTC (Thu)
by jensend (guest, #1385)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 27, 2012 15:11 UTC (Thu)
by me@jasonclinton.com (subscriber, #52701)
[Link]
Posted Sep 27, 2012 18:29 UTC (Thu)
by krakensden (subscriber, #72039)
[Link] (37 responses)
Posted Sep 27, 2012 18:30 UTC (Thu)
by krakensden (subscriber, #72039)
[Link] (36 responses)
Posted Sep 27, 2012 20:22 UTC (Thu)
by sjj (guest, #2020)
[Link] (26 responses)
I will of course try this release. After my initial positive reaction to Gnome 3, I've been driven out as far as KDE and XFCE before circling back to Unity, which I'm starting to like. It too has its "interesting" quirks - just try to find your windows after you remove a second monitor for example (this is a pretty common use-case for laptop users in work environments).
To be an equal-opportunity DE hater, I couldn't believe how crappy the KDE experience was. While Gnome went to one extreme in configurability, KDE is just a mess - seems like anybody can drop in a GUI for random configuration settings. Does a desktop user really need TCP timeout fine tuning for example? The general bling content is even worse than Windows. And all those innocent pixels sacrificed for "Apply" buttons - Gnome got this right, just change the value and boom, it's changed.
Posted Sep 27, 2012 20:32 UTC (Thu)
by mmonaco (guest, #84041)
[Link] (21 responses)
Now everyone is going to start complaining that they can't suspend their computers. Is it really that hard to show both actions, make the displayed actions visible, or have the single action call up a general dialog with everything. I guess none of these alternatives are what Apple would do, in the eyes of the GNOME project.
Posted Sep 28, 2012 5:37 UTC (Fri)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
[Link] (3 responses)
You see what you did there? Used common sense? Tsk, tsk. Don't be ridiculous. I'm sure the now opposite lack of options (yes, hibernate is a valid one as well) on the menu was carefully scrutinised by the whole design team... :-)
Posted Sep 28, 2012 15:54 UTC (Fri)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (2 responses)
[1]Though, personally, that option would be my go-to (provided hibernate worked) all the time. Still leaves 3 options: power off, power save, and logout.
Posted Sep 29, 2012 0:37 UTC (Sat)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
[Link] (1 responses)
Your PS brings us to the most reasonable solution. Have some default menu items. Provide a way to change that in settings. So, if I want to have suspend/hibernate (hybrid or not)/power off, I can do that too. And it is not complicated - Gnome devs simply refuse to do it.
Sensible defaults are great. Inability to customise trivial things is not. And no, writing code (i.e. extensions) for every possible combo is not the way to do it.
Posted Sep 29, 2012 10:15 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Sep 28, 2012 7:50 UTC (Fri)
by GhePeU (subscriber, #56133)
[Link] (16 responses)
I'm still running Ubuntu 11.04 (the last 2.32 release) with selected updated packages on my work laptop (the desktop is Gentoo, so I don't envision issues there, but I'm not using it as much lately), and the support will end in a month or so, so now I will have to start researching an alternative distro.
I'm fed up and I don't have time for all this crap, I've been seriously considering getting a Win7 cd and calling it quits, after more than a decade of desktop linux. A couple of years ago I would have never believed it would've come to this.
Posted Sep 28, 2012 13:14 UTC (Fri)
by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 28, 2012 19:48 UTC (Fri)
by sjj (guest, #2020)
[Link] (1 responses)
I even used Windows for a couple of weeks (work laptop) because of Braindead Enterprise Software Vendors. Wanted to claw my eyes out soon after. That cure is worse than the disease.
Linux DEs are in turmoil right now, but the only way forward if you're a user who wants to keep using Linux, is to try to constructively engage those projects that want to hear from their users and try to influence them. And keep an open mind, not all innovations are bad.
Posted Sep 28, 2012 20:31 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link]
What sort of compatibility issues did you run into?
Posted Sep 28, 2012 14:04 UTC (Fri)
by nteon (subscriber, #53899)
[Link] (12 responses)
Also, its amusing to hear a gentoo user utter the phrase "I don't have time for this crap" :)
Posted Sep 28, 2012 15:11 UTC (Fri)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link]
Posted Sep 28, 2012 16:26 UTC (Fri)
by GhePeU (subscriber, #56133)
[Link] (9 responses)
Windows at least puts everything on a single workspace: messy but not actively hostile, I can live with it.
Posted Sep 28, 2012 17:53 UTC (Fri)
by halla (subscriber, #14185)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 28, 2012 18:55 UTC (Fri)
by GhePeU (subscriber, #56133)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 29, 2012 9:07 UTC (Sat)
by halla (subscriber, #14185)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 29, 2012 16:24 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
At least putty works. We are talking about GNOME here right? I'll take Putty over the default GNOME's terminal any day of the week: at least putty does not spend more CPU resources to show me the gcc's command line then it takes for gcc to compile complex C++ code! When I see that my terminals fully hogs the CPU core just to show the commands executed by make I weep. P.S. Just don't try to compare Linux port of Putty with anything: I'm not sure who did that port but it's awful, yes, I know. We are talking about Putty on Windows here.
Posted Sep 28, 2012 19:29 UTC (Fri)
by sjj (guest, #2020)
[Link] (4 responses)
Or ctrl-alt-T for terminal.
Still despise the stupid idea shared by Gnome3 and Unity that you're ever only going to want one window of each type and you need right click + "New Terminal" or whatever to get a new one.
Posted Sep 29, 2012 3:39 UTC (Sat)
by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963)
[Link] (1 responses)
It makes sense in most cases - the exception for me also being the terminal. I simply set up the Super+T shortcut to launch a new window and that's that.
Posted Sep 30, 2012 1:05 UTC (Sun)
by JanC_ (guest, #34940)
[Link]
Posted Sep 29, 2012 9:00 UTC (Sat)
by Otus (subscriber, #67685)
[Link]
Middle mouse on launcher also opens a new window in Unity.
Not very discoverable, but works great and is consistent with browsers.
Posted Oct 1, 2012 14:21 UTC (Mon)
by sorpigal (guest, #36106)
[Link]
Long ago I began launching apps from my terminal. The number of launcher docks I used shrank quickly to zero and I've never looked back. On Linux I've bound my favorite terminal to ALT+SHIFT+t and have a trivial shell script which I invoke to launch my graphical programs. Launcher programs are overrated; my launcher panel is as long as my memory and the time it takes to find any item is a function of the length of its name (or faster, if it tab completes quickly). I expect most people (where people != users) will prefer this sort of thing once they get used to it.
Posted Sep 28, 2012 19:04 UTC (Fri)
by GhePeU (subscriber, #56133)
[Link]
Anyway my Gentoo is still working perfectly and updated as I like it 9 years and almost 2 months after I installed it, so I can tolerate the occasional breaking :)
Posted Sep 28, 2012 14:49 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (2 responses)
Ugh, no. That's one of the things I hate about GNOME
(and now, alas, XFCE.) I like to sanity-check my changes before applying them. In some cases, if changes are auto-applied it can make the dialog very difficult to read to un-apply them.
Posted Sep 29, 2012 3:30 UTC (Sat)
by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 29, 2012 12:01 UTC (Sat)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
So then you end up with inconsistency. And you have to trust authors to get it right and know when "Apply" is necessary.
I prefer Apply always.
Posted Sep 28, 2012 15:57 UTC (Fri)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link]
Do "standard" WMs still do the one-desktop-for-all-monitors thing? One workspace per monitor (over a shared set of workspaces) works much better IMO (even if it isn't the default, for more experienced users, it can be quite nice). The main downside is keeping track of what is where and the keybindings to do different things.
Posted Sep 27, 2012 20:45 UTC (Thu)
by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935)
[Link] (8 responses)
But how do I suspend a laptop when it has an attached display? Closing the lid won't do, and I don't think I can log out first, can't I?
Posted Sep 28, 2012 6:38 UTC (Fri)
by mgedmin (subscriber, #34497)
[Link] (3 responses)
Are there actually any laptops that don't have a suspend key?
Posted Sep 28, 2012 7:44 UTC (Fri)
by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935)
[Link] (2 responses)
In all fairness GNOME 3.6 accepted my patch that lets me just close the lid, but you need gnome-tweak-tool to access it.
Posted Sep 28, 2012 19:22 UTC (Fri)
by sjj (guest, #2020)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 28, 2012 20:42 UTC (Fri)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link]
Posted Sep 28, 2012 17:44 UTC (Fri)
by mclasen@redhat.com (subscriber, #31786)
[Link] (3 responses)
There's a setting for overriding the default behaviour on lid-close with external monitors attached:
gsettings set org.gnome.settings-daemon.plugins.power lid-close-suspend-with-external-monitor true
Or, if you prefer, gnome-tweak-tool has a switch for this.
Posted Oct 1, 2012 6:33 UTC (Mon)
by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Oct 2, 2012 21:12 UTC (Tue)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Oct 3, 2012 7:27 UTC (Wed)
by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935)
[Link]
Posted Sep 27, 2012 23:29 UTC (Thu)
by Felix_the_Mac (guest, #32242)
[Link] (4 responses)
Does it have a screen saver yet?
I have an awesome collection of photos in my Pictures folder that I haven't seen for a year or more :-(
Posted Sep 28, 2012 17:06 UTC (Fri)
by scripter (subscriber, #2654)
[Link]
Posted Sep 28, 2012 19:40 UTC (Fri)
by Felix_the_Mac (guest, #32242)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 29, 2012 3:28 UTC (Sat)
by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963)
[Link]
Posted Sep 29, 2012 9:59 UTC (Sat)
by tuna (guest, #44480)
[Link]
Posted Sep 28, 2012 7:11 UTC (Fri)
by alison (subscriber, #63752)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 28, 2012 13:15 UTC (Fri)
by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963)
[Link]
GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
What exactly you'd like to configure?
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
- why did they have to effectively kill Gnome 2, making the transition so much harder for users? (and please no technicalities about how the Gnome 2 libraries can still be installed aside the Gnome 3 ones...)
- why did they start a war on existing features, depriving former users of functionality they were well accustomed to and relied upon? why the vandalism? (oh, and a nice touch f.i. when they wrote that split panel in Nautilus was removed because "not very discoverable" ... after hiding all sort of stuff)
- why did they ignore their current user base feedback? I'd better say the outrage, and believe me, it wasn't (always) fear of change: I know many people who sticked to Gnome during the 1 > 2 transition (heck, I'm one of them), and this is *not* the same thing; but anyway, why the arrogant attitude? even the most harsh and rude criticism, provided it's not just trolling, is an indication that you're doing something wrong ... and that transpired in the "official version" as well, see B. Otte's post
- isn't Betty a woman's name?
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
Not everybody likes it when Apple does it. Indeed, it's why some of us don't use OS X. If you happen to like the workflow that {Steve Jobs,$GNOME_DESIGNER} likes then you can live with the disempowerment, otherwise you go somewhere else.
Another comic success!
Another comic success!
As mentioned by the other user Linux is the only OS that seems to have issues with this. Neither Windows or OS X provides any sane way to configure fonts desktop-wide. Usually all font configuration is done on a per-application basis.
Fundamentally it really boils down to a sense of empowerment. Nobody wants to mention it because 'feeling empowered' is a bit of a taboo subject among technical computer type people. They want to have the feeling that they are in control and a few whiz-bang sliders can provide that.
GNOME 3.6 released
"Files" (the application formerly known as Nautilus)
Worth a laugh. Maybe they did it to try to ditch the bad reputation Nautilus has acquired. In that light, I anticipate that the entire GNOME project will soon be rebranded as "Computer."
GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
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GNOME 3.6 released
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GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
> only going to want one window of each type and you need right click + "New
> Terminal" or whatever to get a new one.
GNOME 3.6 released
#!/usr/bin/env bash
"$1" 2>/dev/null &1>2 & disown $!GNOME 3.6 released
Apply buttons (was GNOME 3.6 released)
And all those innocent pixels sacrificed for "Apply" buttons - Gnome got this right, just change the value and boom, it's changed.
Apply buttons (was GNOME 3.6 released)
Apply buttons (was GNOME 3.6 released)
GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
GNOME 3.6 released
Screen saver?
Screen saver?
Screen saver?
Screen saver?
Screen saver?
GStreamer 1.0 wasn't ready?
GStreamer 1.0 wasn't ready?