GNOME 3.4 released
From: | Matthias Clasen <mclasen-AT-redhat.com> | |
To: | gnome-announce-list-AT-gnome.org, devel-announce-list-AT-gnome.org | |
Subject: | GNOME 3.4 released | |
Date: | Wed, 28 Mar 2012 10:20:59 -0400 | |
Message-ID: | <1332944459.28950.2.camel@localhost> | |
Archive‑link: | Article |
GNOME 3.4 Released ==================== Today, the GNOME Project celebrates the release of GNOME 3.4, the latest version of the popular, multi-platform free desktop and of its developer platform. This timely release marks the first birthday of GNOME 3. GNOME 3.4 is the second major update of GNOME 3. It builds on the foundations that we have laid with 3.0 and 3.2 and offers a greatly enhanced experience. The exciting new features and improvements in this release include a new virtual machine and remote access application, a completely revamped web browsing user experience, integrated document search, first-class web applications, better graphics tablet support, application menus, and many more. For more information about the major changes in GNOME 3.4, please visit our release notes: http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.4/ GNOME 3.4 will be available shortly in many distributions. Live images of GNOME 3.4 are currently being prepared and will appear soon at: http://www.gnome.org/getting-gnome/ This six months effort wouldn't have been possible without the whole GNOME community, made of contributors and friends from all around the world: developers, designers, documentors, usability and accessibility specialists, translators, maintainers, sysadmins, companies, artists, users and testers. GNOME would not exist without all those people. Thanks very much to every one of them! Our next release, GNOME 3.6, is planned for September 2012. Until then, enjoy GNOME 3.4 ! The GNOME Release Team _______________________________________________ gnome-announce-list mailing list gnome-announce-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-announce-list
Posted Mar 28, 2012 15:50 UTC (Wed)
by avtechmjc (guest, #50477)
[Link] (67 responses)
Posted Mar 28, 2012 16:01 UTC (Wed)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Mar 28, 2012 16:35 UTC (Wed)
by avtechmjc (guest, #50477)
[Link] (3 responses)
What configuration option are you referring to?
Posted Mar 28, 2012 18:02 UTC (Wed)
by jimreynold2nd (guest, #75341)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 28, 2012 18:14 UTC (Wed)
by avtechmjc (guest, #50477)
[Link]
I knew about it, but my less-computer-savvy users don't - unless I tell them. Which is silly.
Posted Mar 28, 2012 20:54 UTC (Wed)
by AndreE (guest, #60148)
[Link]
Posted Mar 28, 2012 16:17 UTC (Wed)
by drago01 (subscriber, #50715)
[Link] (33 responses)
Posted Mar 28, 2012 16:48 UTC (Wed)
by drdabbles (guest, #48755)
[Link] (32 responses)
Making Gnome easier to use is a fantastic goal, but obscuring certain things like shutdown or reboot behind a key combination, the requirement of an extension, or the changing of a setting is a _really_ bad idea. It's been discussed at least a thousand times, so I'll leave it there.
Posted Mar 28, 2012 17:51 UTC (Wed)
by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784)
[Link] (5 responses)
Synonymous for you, anyway. The cultural connotations of symbols are neither time-invariant nor space-invariant, and the symbol "Ctrl-Alt-Delete" has had an assortment of connotations over the course of the more than 25 years I've been aware of it.
Posted Mar 28, 2012 21:04 UTC (Wed)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 2:04 UTC (Thu)
by drdabbles (guest, #48755)
[Link] (1 responses)
To attach that stigma and historical baggage to something used to simply signal your UI shell that you want to reboot, logout, or shut down is unintuitive to uses moving from the windows world to the Linux desktop. You and I perfectly understand, because we're advanced users. My girlfriend simply wouldn't get it.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 9:52 UTC (Thu)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
It does not looks this way from this side. Have you actually tried to see just what you get in Windows Vista or Windows 7 when you press ALT+CTRL+DEL? Take a look on bottom right corner. What? Why? Why is it fine in Windows world, but not in Linux world? Do you mean they can only find red “power” button in bottom right corner and can not find it when it's closer to the center of the screen?
Posted Mar 29, 2012 10:28 UTC (Thu)
by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784)
[Link]
For me, the strongest connotations Ctrl-Alt-Delete has had are:
Posted Apr 3, 2012 14:31 UTC (Tue)
by sorpigal (guest, #36106)
[Link]
Posted Mar 28, 2012 21:09 UTC (Wed)
by elanthis (guest, #6227)
[Link] (25 responses)
On the modern incarnations of that OS, Ctrl-Alt-Delete is the "System Menu" command. It is that command specifically because the OS specially catches that key combination and does not pass it on to any application, nor allow any application to alter the behavior of the command (short of modifying system DLLs and such, of course).
One of the uses for it is on the login screen. Pressing ctrl-alt-delete there is a safety feature. Since no application can catch/override it, you can guarantee that if you press the key combination, you will either see the real login screen (not some malware pretending to be the login screen) or the system menu (if you were in fact not at the real login screen).
This is one of the several ways in which modern Windows incarnations are actually more secure than Linux. On Linux, there's basically no way to be sure that the screen you're looking at is really your desktop or admin panel or whatever and not some other malware that injected itself via the a hole in the non-sandboxed Firefox processes Linux users are still primarily using as their Web browsers.
XACE and SELinux were supposed to fix this for Linux years ago, but they're still unused and in most WMs completely unimplemented. And to implement them properly, the kernel itself really does need to take control of ctrl-alt-del and ensure that only very select applications can respond to it (the login screen or a fixed system control panel).
Posted Mar 28, 2012 21:32 UTC (Wed)
by Pawlerson (guest, #74136)
[Link] (11 responses)
http://www.h-online.com/security/news/item/Study-analyses...
Posted Mar 29, 2012 7:26 UTC (Thu)
by imgx64 (guest, #78590)
[Link] (10 responses)
So, is there a way, when I sit on a computer, to know that I'm entering my password in XDM and not in some other program a malicious user ran?
Posted Mar 29, 2012 15:43 UTC (Thu)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link]
Posted Mar 29, 2012 15:52 UTC (Thu)
by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link] (4 responses)
Well, let's go bit by bit.
1. Ctrl-Alt-Del is only a relatively safe. The code that handles it is secure only because it belongs to the Windows kernel, but it resides in a file on the filesystem, and in memory addressable by code running in ring-0. So any exploit that gives you write permissions for that file, or ability to run ring-0 code (install a driver) can allow you to subvert it. Unfortunately there's a TON of such exploits, so I guess this only serves to prevent wannabe hackers and pranksters.
2. Is your login the only password you type on your computer? I bet not. What about all those? Depending on the software you use and web sites you vist it can be a considerable number of passwords entered. And probably those include the ones a malicious program would really be interested in, actually.
3. And yes, there is: configure your XDM so that it looks different from the default. Don't forget to mark the configuration files to be only readable by root.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 16:48 UTC (Thu)
by abo (subscriber, #77288)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 21:46 UTC (Thu)
by blujay (guest, #39961)
[Link] (1 responses)
I hate having to press Ctrl+Alt+Del to log in. It's an awkward, two-handed chord, and Windows uses it as a crutch because of its inferior security model. Sure, if Linux had such a system from the kernel up through X, it'd be a tiny bit more secure--but with the fundamentally more secure model, and by using trusted binary repositories, I don't think it's necessary. Besides, what are you going to do, press Ctrl+Alt+Del every time you have to type your password? Ugh!
BTW, SELinux on Ubuntu works quite well with Firefox. I can't vouch for how well it stops exploits, but it's there, and is kept up-to-date by Ubuntu.
Posted Apr 7, 2012 6:09 UTC (Sat)
by abo (subscriber, #77288)
[Link]
Posted Mar 30, 2012 1:49 UTC (Fri)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link]
Posted Mar 29, 2012 16:31 UTC (Thu)
by Pawlerson (guest, #74136)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 5, 2012 12:21 UTC (Thu)
by elanthis (guest, #6227)
[Link] (1 responses)
You absolutely do not know me, in the least. You have never met me, never had a conversation with me, and couldn't guess my motivations or beliefs to save your life.
That said, there's no FUD here. Windows is more secure in that it offers user-facing security features that Linux never has. There's absolutely no argument here. Sure, maybe Windows -- offering tons of features and subsystems that the Linux desktop does not -- has more lines of code and hence more places for mistakes to be made is truth, but that's entirely different than the _design_ of Windows being one focusing on desktop security, where as Linux focuses on ancient POSIX-compatible time-shared system security.
On the desktop, security is not "user A cannot negatively affect user B." On the desktop, security is "user A accessed something that could find a hole in random application he's using, but that still shouldn't negatively affect user A."
Linux has almost no solution here, besides adding SELinux (only even used on one major-ish distro) and some weak sand-boxing. Windows has numerous features that help to ensure that even if the sand-boxing mechanisms (which, according to more than a few places, are more complete and secure on Windows than on Linux) are broken, the conscientious user still has means to do a basic sanity test of the screen he's staring at.
Yes, the Windows mechanisms can be hacked by modifying Windows, but then the same can be said about Linux. I've seen root-kit'd Linux systems. They're a thing. Maybe you're not aware.
But hey, claim you know me, say that basic facts are "FUD," and then try to discredit me. That's the kind of response reasonable people expect out of folks who make emotional -- rather than logical -- attachments to technology, and isn't doing "your side" (which I'd say I'm on; I don't post here just to make fun of people, but rather to point out the dumb things that the Linux community could be doing better with) any favors. :(
Posted Apr 5, 2012 16:33 UTC (Thu)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
Oh, but there is. Right here: Security can not be measured by counting features. In fact often additional features make security worse, not better. Windows ACL model is quite powerful and convenient, but I'm not sure it offers better security. It's complexity is it's worst enemy. When I try to remove SYSTEM-owned file in FAR from Administrator account it explains to me that it can not be done. Unless I'll give permission agree to “try harder” - then it repeats with DEBUG permissions and file is gone. That's not security, that's snake oil. Windows is designed for convenience, not for security. Sure, Windows NT was designed with some good security ideas in mind, but when it become obvious that they hurt performance and usability most of them were abandoned and subverted. Only after huge outcry when totally insecure design of Windows XP (let's not even talk about Windows 9X, ok) created plethora of malware Microsoft started adding features which can provide real security on desktop. Some of them are genuinely useful, some are more of snake oil. Actually seccomp sandboxing can be quite robust, but hard to use. There are interesting development in this direction under Linux which makes it more useful. FUD education 101:
Basic fact: in Windows you can do X, Y and Z, in Linux it's impossible. Where are your facts? Here is an example of your “fact”: First of all it mixes the issues (Chrome uses pretty robust sandbox on Linux), then it includes true statement (yes, Windows's Ctrl-Alt-Del is pretty robust protection against some kinds of attacks) but omits an important detail (in Windows Vista and above you don't need to press Ctrl-Alt-Del before you'll be asked to enter Admin's password). The sad truth is that Ctrl-Alt-Del was useful security feature in Windows NT 3.1, but over time Microsoft worked long and hard to make it less and less useful. Today Microsoft have trained users to enter password after screen “flash” instead of doing it after Ctrl-Alt-Del. Which turned Ctrl-Alt-Del from genuine protection to snake oil security. This “fact” is FUD, plain and simple. Good, high-quality FUD (it includes genuinely true statements and lies mostly by omission), yes, but it does not make it less FUDish.
Posted Apr 3, 2012 7:35 UTC (Tue)
by lindi (subscriber, #53135)
[Link]
If you just want to login securely then the best solution is to bind some key to just restart your display manager. My own prototype for this is
http://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/git/xsakd.git
but the idea is simple: it is just a daemon that reads /dev/input/by-path/platform-i8042-serio-0-event-kbd so there is no way to inject a fake key press programmatically. I wrote this to test how to make a variant of sudo that would not expose my password to all X clients:
http://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/git/sido.git/
Posted Mar 28, 2012 21:40 UTC (Wed)
by Pawlerson (guest, #74136)
[Link] (1 responses)
http://www.h-online.com/security/news/item/Pwn2Own-ends-w...
"Mozilla Firefox fell to the team of Willem Pinckaers and Vincenzo Iozzo, who together took second place overall in Pwn2Own. Their single zero day vulnerability in Firefox involved a use-after-free problem which evaded DEP and ASLR protections in Windows 7."
I wouldn't ever trust Windows. I'm sure my system is far more secure with Apparmor profiles rather than Windows' sandboxing.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 1:34 UTC (Thu)
by Fowl (subscriber, #65667)
[Link]
IE and Chrome, which are, have had vulnerabilities mitigated by sandboxing in the past. It's not perfect of course, but now you have to find an elevation of privilege vulnerability to get your remote code execution vulnerability to take over the system.
Posted Mar 28, 2012 23:19 UTC (Wed)
by pboddie (guest, #50784)
[Link] (10 responses)
This feature actually has a name and satisfies some "secure computing" criteria, but from vague memory I thought that Ctrl-Alt-Delete in a Windows session brings up the task manager, or perhaps asks you if you want the task manager. Is that the "system menu"? And out of interest, how can no application be able to trap that combination? Surely these are all normal keys. Nevertheless, Ctrl-Alt-Delete still has negative connotations. Maybe all our systems should have a BBC Micro-style Break key or a Torch Triple-X-style "soft" power button for situations like this.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 1:14 UTC (Thu)
by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167)
[Link] (7 responses)
In Windows when you press the SAK it forcibly summons a separate desktop, which you can think of as being kind of like a separate X server process. This desktop is "owned" by the System user, roughly equivalent to Unix root, so anyone with permission to tamper with it could just have replaced the entire OS kernel or whatever they wanted.
On the system desktop lives the login dialog (when nobody is logged in), the lock dialog (when somebody is logged in, but their password is needed to resume their session) and that dialog which offers you choices like changing who is logged in or starting a task manager. Because they live in a separate desktop, ordinary programs can't tamper with them and are only just barely aware they exist.
Within a single desktop (or indeed an X session) ordinary programs can snoop all keypresses, silently take pictures of other windows, send fake keypress or mouse click events, initiate phony drag-and-drop operations, impersonate other programs (e.g. popping up a SSH passphrase dialog) and other nasty tricks. They cannot, however, prevent the SAK from summoning its secure desktop.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 15:45 UTC (Thu)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 17:31 UTC (Thu)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 17:47 UTC (Thu)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Mar 30, 2012 1:13 UTC (Fri)
by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167)
[Link] (3 responses)
So you may find that in practice the story goes
User 1: "Oh, a message..." (doesn't read properly) Ctrl+Alt+Delete
Someone would have to do an experiment to check, but this wouldn't be the first time it turned out users are (in a sense) too dumb to fall for a clever trick.
Posted Mar 30, 2012 1:41 UTC (Fri)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 15, 2012 16:12 UTC (Sun)
by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167)
[Link]
I wasn't relying on users to notice that something is wrong so much as for them not to notice that anything has changed. The users I deal with don't _seem_ to read that message about pressing Ctrl-Alt-Del and you can't stop it working, so it seemed to me that if people just press it by reflex everything works out OK. Judging from the other reply though, I was wrong.
Posted Mar 30, 2012 5:50 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
Experiment showed resounding success. Only instead of “press Ctrl+Alt+Insert” they used trojans with some nonsensical premise in text and “send SMS to XXX-XXX-XXXX” (paid number, obviously) ending. Apparently this business scheme is quite profitable.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 9:59 UTC (Thu)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
Your memory is not incorrect, just obsolete. Nowadays (starting from Windows Vista) it brings up menu which includes things like “Lock this computer”, “Switch user”, “Log of”, “Change a password”, and, yes, “Reboot” and “Shutdown”. “Start Task Manager” is also there, but it's the last item in the list and is probably there for historical reasons.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 21:38 UTC (Thu)
by pboddie (guest, #50784)
[Link]
Yes, while the pundits have been racking up the hits deliberating on the issue of Linux being ready for the desktop or not for the past n years, I've been actually using it, meaning that even in work environments I've not had to worry about what Microsoft have changed with which dialogue in whichever version of Windows that is being rolled out with widespread user re-training (which of course comes at no cost whatsoever because "it's still Windows" whilst any Linux deployment can't be done even if it looks like the current version of Windows because "it would cost too much to re-train everyone").
I'd like my memory of Windows key combinations to fade further into obsolescence!
Posted Mar 28, 2012 17:51 UTC (Wed)
by tx (guest, #81224)
[Link] (23 responses)
Posted Mar 28, 2012 17:57 UTC (Wed)
by avtechmjc (guest, #50477)
[Link] (22 responses)
Posted Mar 28, 2012 18:16 UTC (Wed)
by kalev (guest, #58246)
[Link] (21 responses)
Posted Mar 28, 2012 18:35 UTC (Wed)
by avtechmjc (guest, #50477)
[Link]
Posted Mar 28, 2012 18:39 UTC (Wed)
by spaetz (guest, #32870)
[Link] (19 responses)
my box uses 25 watts when suspended, but boots in 40 secs when I turn it on from real off. Why should I necessarily want to suspend?
Posted Mar 28, 2012 19:07 UTC (Wed)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (18 responses)
It's instantaneous and it's like you never left.
Posted Mar 28, 2012 19:20 UTC (Wed)
by spaetz (guest, #32870)
[Link] (4 responses)
That "convenience" costs me around 25watt*14h*365*0.3€/kWh ~ 40€/year, nah I`ll pass :-) .
Posted Mar 28, 2012 21:14 UTC (Wed)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link] (3 responses)
News flash! GNOME shell does not scale!
Posted Mar 29, 2012 16:14 UTC (Thu)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link] (2 responses)
Assuming we are on the IPCC's A1F scenario (which seems easy day terrifyingly more like an idealistic of what could have been rather than a doomsday scenario), then the global mean temperature anomaly in 2300 is increased by much less than 1 * 10^-5 degrees C (the margin of error of my model). So we can fortunately let GNOME 3 off the hook for any noticeable damage to the planet. :)
Source: the climate model used in Fate of the World, adapted from work performed by Dr. Myles Allen [Allen, M. R. et al (2009) Warming caused by cumulative carbon emissions towards the trillionth tonne, Nature, 458:1163-1166]
Posted Mar 29, 2012 20:26 UTC (Thu)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link]
News flash! GNOME shell is not dangerous to the planet, after all! New data confirms that computer suspend is harmless to the planet (but might be relevant to your pocket), page 5.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 21:44 UTC (Thu)
by pboddie (guest, #50784)
[Link]
Posted Mar 28, 2012 19:46 UTC (Wed)
by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Mar 28, 2012 20:02 UTC (Wed)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link]
Now if they can just get fix all the programs so they pay attention to system management, we'll be somewhere. Evolution is the one that bugs me; I don't want to have to restart it manually every time I log on because it isn't smart enough to restart itself.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 6:19 UTC (Thu)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (5 responses)
No it isn't and it never worked on any OS. Suspend is fair superior.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 9:22 UTC (Thu)
by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164)
[Link] (4 responses)
It IS a very useful feature. I suspend my laptop most of the time, but when I have to reboot (say after an update) I don't have to start my apps and open my documents again. Nice. On my desktop it is even better - I don't use suspend (it boots up fast enough) so I like to not have to open my 20 apps again. Hell, I wouldn't use a web browser without session support, would you?
On my media center it's even worse as suspend there kills the HDMI output so I have to shut it down to save the trees. Session management means I continue where I left off...
The fact that you prefer to spend time with things others rather have their computer do for them doesn't mean it's an useless feature. I've got work to do, you know...
Posted Mar 29, 2012 10:35 UTC (Thu)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (1 responses)
It seems weird that you think that I said it wasn't useful when I never said anything of the sort. I am just saying it's fundamentally broken.
The fact that a few programs implement something like it in a fairly useful manner is besides the point entirely.
> Hell, I wouldn't use a web browser without session support, would you?
Despite all your assumptions and attempts to change the subject I wouldn't even notice or care, personally. Other people seem to find it useful, but that's besides the point, again.
> The fact that you prefer to spend time with things others rather have their computer do for them doesn't mean it's an useless feature. I've got work to do, you know...
Why would I spend time struggling with a feature that never worked and is never going to work for most of the applications I use when I have something that is much faster and actually works for all of them?
If I run into bugged out hardware or actually find myself caring about the minuscule amount of power it takes to maintain my ram state in my laptop then I can always just change the default to 'suspend to swap'.
Posted Mar 31, 2012 14:33 UTC (Sat)
by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164)
[Link]
So the few app maintainers which have been incapable of implementing this just need a gentle push - or a patch. At that point, we can save trees and make the reboot experience nicer - you don't have to loose all your state anymore.
Much more important, the session capabilities are put to use in a far more innovative way: Activities. Being able to save the state of a group of your applications and stopping/starting them based on what you're working on, and even more cool, moving it all to another device, is something really new and useful.
Imagine - you're at work, and are working on a task but don't want to miss the train. Transfer your work (not just the files but the whole session) to another device (say laptop, or tablet, if your desktop is smart enough to adapt to such a device) and keep working in the train!
You might think it's not possible. Maybe start using less obsolete software? Because it is - and millions of users on Linux are using it already as it was introduced on the Linux desktop years ago... This is from September 2010:
And may 2011:
(granted, the moving of activities from one system to the next isn't possible yet, but managing and using them on one system works just fine)
I think it's time to look at a calendar: yes, it is 2012 and your computer can do more than you think. Trowing around workarounds like suspend are imho just a bad excuse for unwillingness to adopt new, good, useful technologies. The idea that shutting down the computer means loosing everything you were working on is DOS era stuff. Does the fact that MS and Apple can't get their act together mean we have to be similarly restricted?
Posted Mar 29, 2012 15:57 UTC (Thu)
by davide.del.vento (guest, #59196)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 21:51 UTC (Thu)
by blujay (guest, #39961)
[Link]
Posted Mar 28, 2012 20:57 UTC (Wed)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (4 responses)
The GNOME Overlords have DECREED that thou shalt NOT power your computer off.
The GNOME Overlords further DECREE that all BLASPHEMERS who express such SICK and TWISTED desires shall choose between banishment to Extension-Land and carpal-tunnel syndrome from sixty-two mouse-clicks while holding down Ctrl-Alt-Shift-Meta-Windows to satisfy their BLASPHEMY.
(It's a joke... don't get upset! :))
Posted Mar 28, 2012 22:51 UTC (Wed)
by hadess (subscriber, #24252)
[Link] (3 responses)
When you need to say that it's a joke, then it's usually not that good a joke.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 12:57 UTC (Thu)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (2 responses)
It wasn't a very good joke, but had I not made the disclaimer, there'd have been a thread sixty messages deep from touchy GNOME developers.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 13:01 UTC (Thu)
by hadess (subscriber, #24252)
[Link] (1 responses)
Those touchy GNOME developers that think this joke isn't funny.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 13:10 UTC (Thu)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
If you say so.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 16:19 UTC (Thu)
by mgedmin (subscriber, #34497)
[Link]
This is on Ubuntu 11.10 with GNOME 3.2 in a GNOME Shell session.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 16:52 UTC (Thu)
by whitemice (guest, #3748)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 16:59 UTC (Thu)
by avtechmjc (guest, #50477)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 30, 2012 1:52 UTC (Fri)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link]
Posted Mar 28, 2012 21:44 UTC (Wed)
by b7j0c (guest, #27559)
[Link]
Posted Mar 28, 2012 22:20 UTC (Wed)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link] (40 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 3:30 UTC (Thu)
by josh (subscriber, #17465)
[Link] (39 responses)
That said, backward compatibility would suggest migrating this setting automatically.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 9:57 UTC (Thu)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link] (37 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 10:29 UTC (Thu)
by hadess (subscriber, #24252)
[Link] (36 responses)
Where's your bug report?
Posted Mar 29, 2012 10:50 UTC (Thu)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link] (33 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 10:54 UTC (Thu)
by hadess (subscriber, #24252)
[Link] (32 responses)
That certainly makes me want to fix it...
Posted Mar 29, 2012 11:06 UTC (Thu)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link] (15 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 11:19 UTC (Thu)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (14 responses)
If things are done better, great. But that takes real work. I think the bug you mentioned is still being thought what the best design is. So it is taking a while. Not done on purpose, not nice, but it happens.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 11:33 UTC (Thu)
by deepfire (guest, #26138)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 11:39 UTC (Thu)
by hadess (subscriber, #24252)
[Link]
Essential functionality like what? This particular bit of functionality has never worked correctly, and it was sheer luck that it didn't break anything else until now. See also:
Posted Mar 29, 2012 15:32 UTC (Thu)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (6 responses)
We do time based releases so you get the bugfixes every 6 months. We tried feature based releases and that had loads of drawbacks.
Loads of other projects switched to doing time based releases.
We've concluded that not every bug can be fixed.
Note that gnome-session and so on didn't change much, so your clean slate remark is incorrect. Furthermore, GNOME doesn't consist of guys solely.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 22:05 UTC (Thu)
by blujay (guest, #39961)
[Link] (5 responses)
The bottom line is that there are two choices: doing what's best for users or what's most fun for developers. Volunteers, they may be, but "with great power comes great responsibility"--they ought to be more considerate of existing, loyal users. Oh well, there's always MATE and Cinnamon.
Please, lose the political correctness. Hey, I don't typically call girls "guys" either, but many people do, and you know what he meant, so don't go picking a fight.
Posted Mar 30, 2012 7:34 UTC (Fri)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (4 responses)
Saying that this isn't best for users: I totally disagree and I explained the reasoning why 2 times in different ways.
Going from bugreports to "breaking functionality" (rather vague): terribly vague. I don't see how this relates to the way bugs are fixed or GNOME is released.
As hadess mentioned, that this worked reliability was by sheer luck. So I guess timing related. Meaning: The bug was always there, just never triggered.
If you want an answer from me, address what I say a bit more concretely please and don't bring up vague stuff.
PS: Why focus so much on a remark I placed at the end? And I do mean it, but it is not to start a fight, nor to be politically correct. I find it terribly odd you interpret it as such. GNOME has started various projects to get women involved. Yet you still see posts by women who say that they feel harassed or just excluded.
Posted Mar 30, 2012 18:02 UTC (Fri)
by blujay (guest, #39961)
[Link] (3 responses)
What if I said that I take offense at anyone's taking offense at it? That makes about as much sense. ;)
Posted Mar 30, 2012 23:57 UTC (Fri)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
It has already expanded wildly in meaning since those days (even in the UK, where that expansion is relatively recent): I don't see any problem with its expanding a little more.
Posted Mar 31, 2012 13:37 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 31, 2012 20:26 UTC (Sat)
by blujay (guest, #39961)
[Link]
Why do you suddenly change gears from sex to nationality? Bait and switch? ;)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 11:50 UTC (Thu)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 15:36 UTC (Thu)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (3 responses)
Stuff is released with known bugs. We make a list of blocker bugs, but it is more of a "what must and can be fixed before x.x.0". There are just too many bugs.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 19:12 UTC (Thu)
by Company (guest, #57006)
[Link] (2 responses)
Granted, that is on purpose, because we are iterating a lot faster than in the late GNOME 2 series, but it's worth pointing out nonetheless.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 19:46 UTC (Thu)
by josh (subscriber, #17465)
[Link]
Posted Mar 30, 2012 7:49 UTC (Fri)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link]
I'm terrible at QA: Always run the latest tarballs, but usually don't even trigger the most obvious crashers. I just rely on following Bugzilla for that (GNOME and Mageia).
I'm aiming at allowing people to follow GNOME more closely. More people tracking GNOME means hopefully more contributors (testers, triagers, and maybe eventually developers).
I do know that new applications take at least a cycle to get better. But we're releasing them early as well (which IMO is good). E.g. Boxes.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 11:20 UTC (Thu)
by micka (subscriber, #38720)
[Link] (15 responses)
Come on,people, let's not be so abrasive (also directed at me, actually).
Posted Mar 29, 2012 12:49 UTC (Thu)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link] (14 responses)
Posted Mar 29, 2012 12:57 UTC (Thu)
by hadess (subscriber, #24252)
[Link] (13 responses)
Right. But I'm not talking about most users, I'm talking about people who complain on LWN's comments thread. Anyway, dead horse is flogged now.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 16:31 UTC (Thu)
by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link] (12 responses)
Was that a complaint? And in a LWN thread no less!!! Aren't you ashamed of yourself?
I suggest that, as an act of contrition, go and file a bug in the gnome-users bug tracker. Something like this:
Bug#1 Users complain about things they don't like
Posted Mar 29, 2012 16:47 UTC (Thu)
by micka (subscriber, #38720)
[Link]
Posted Mar 29, 2012 22:07 UTC (Thu)
by blujay (guest, #39961)
[Link]
Posted Mar 30, 2012 8:00 UTC (Fri)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (9 responses)
In GNOME Bugzilla we use stock answers. Blaming and/or angry (as well as pointless messages) are not appreciated; either be friendly, or (preferably) use a stock answer (this because the stock answer has been refined over various years to explain everything).
For angry/pointless/blaming messages: You do get some leeway based on your contributions, but I don't care if a developer sends a bad message or a reporter. I don't like either.
Posted Mar 30, 2012 8:26 UTC (Fri)
by josh (subscriber, #17465)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted Mar 30, 2012 9:44 UTC (Fri)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (7 responses)
Sometimes you just don't know and have to rely on the reporter. Maybe some triagers are overactive in using it. E.g. closing just because of a new GNOME version isn't right. But if the bug is old and/or lots of new development happened in between, then it can be ok to ask if it still applies. But it is up to the triager/developer to make a judgement call.
Bugsquad decides entirely on how it is done in general for triagers. They used to ask the reporter and wait a while (e.g. 6 weeks, 3 months). But they noticed that often there was no feedback at all. So instead of leaving it open ("NEEDINFO"), they're closing it more quickly.
The reporter has the ability to reopen, so don't see anything wrong with this? It should say to please reopen, no?
Anyway, if you have suggestions on the stock answer, could you please email gnome-bugsquad@gnome.org (I tend to ignore LWN articles after a few days; hard to track if not a subscriber)? Or followup now and I'll mention it to them. Entire process change is better if you discuss directly (I'd just be a postman).
Posted Mar 30, 2012 10:11 UTC (Fri)
by josh (subscriber, #17465)
[Link] (3 responses)
I don't see anything wrong with requesting more information on a specific bug and closing it if the reporter doesn't provide that information. I just object to having to babysit a pile of bugs and mechanically reopen them each time someone mechanically closes them.
Posted Mar 30, 2012 11:29 UTC (Fri)
by alankila (guest, #47141)
[Link]
Posted Mar 31, 2012 13:34 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 31, 2012 19:30 UTC (Sat)
by josh (subscriber, #17465)
[Link]
This one demonstrates particular rudeness: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=671744
These just use the stock template I mentioned:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672014
Valid reasons to close a bug: "can't reproduce that in the current version", or "the entire subsystem you reported the bug against doesn't exist anymore in the current version, and its replacement doesn't have that problem". Invalid reasons to close a bug: "there's a new version and we don't care about the old one anymore", without actually testing that the new version doesn't have the problem, especially when it turns out that it *does*.
Posted Mar 30, 2012 14:10 UTC (Fri)
by ekj (guest, #1524)
[Link] (2 responses)
That's not the behaviour I've been seeing though. Instead what I've seen are mechanical mass-closings of the "This is 9 months old, and we're released a new version, so it's being closed", even in cases where the bug was narrowed down to specific functions that hasn't had a single change in those 9 months.
If they instead put it at "NEED INFO" and didn't get any, in a reasonable amount of time, then okay, fine, close the sucker. But I've never once seen that happen. Instead the bug goes straight from "CONFIRMED" to "CLOSED" with no questions posed.
The routine should be to *either* investigate slightly to see if there's any actual reason to think the bug is probably gone, or else, to atleast ask the submitter "Has anyone tested this with a current release ? Is it still relevant?" *then* close it if 3 weeks later there's been no response.
Posted Mar 31, 2012 13:35 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 31, 2012 15:34 UTC (Sat)
by ekj (guest, #1524)
[Link]
Posted Mar 29, 2012 22:00 UTC (Thu)
by blujay (guest, #39961)
[Link] (1 responses)
Any software project that requires its users to constantly file, "Hey, you broke this" bug reports is a failure, in my opinion. It's a double failure when the project ignores its users pleas to, "Hey, quit breaking stuff!"
The solution is so simple: don't replace working code with broken code. "But we need people to test it!" you say. People will still test it if it's called alpha or beta. It will take longer to reach parity and maturity--but so what?!
I wish desktop devs had a mindset more like Linus's: "Don't break userspace, EVER!" How about, "Don't break existing functionality, EVER!" (i.e. don't release it until it's working and equivalent).
Posted Mar 30, 2012 7:18 UTC (Fri)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link]
Posted Apr 26, 2012 19:46 UTC (Thu)
by mgedmin (subscriber, #34497)
[Link]
:(
Posted Mar 29, 2012 1:32 UTC (Thu)
by aryonoco (guest, #55563)
[Link] (2 responses)
As a former KDE3 user, who gave up on KDE with KDE4 and used various different WMs in the meantime (anything from XFCE to E17 to Unity), I finally found my home in Gnome 3. Gnome 3 has been like a breadth of fresh air in computing for me, fitting in with exactly the way I like my desktop to behave. It's brought a noticeable increase in productivity on my desktop, as well as the added bonus of being very pleasant to use.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 9:27 UTC (Thu)
by avtechmjc (guest, #50477)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 30, 2012 0:10 UTC (Fri)
by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link]
And calling a spade a spade is not hating.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 16:56 UTC (Thu)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link] (1 responses)
I am disappoint.
Posted Mar 29, 2012 17:32 UTC (Thu)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link]
Please?
Posted Mar 29, 2012 17:03 UTC (Thu)
by debacle (subscriber, #7114)
[Link] (6 responses)
My vision is not too bad, but unfortunately — maybe because of my age — it is stressful to me to look at white on black.
On Debian wheezy I could not find an obvious way to change the top panel to black on white.
There are some hints on the web that involve either editing CSS files or downloading extensions outside Debian, but I will not try such things.
Does GNOME 3.4 allow me to easily switch to black on white?
(Btw: GNOME 2 and XFCE 4 both feature black text on white background, which is also in line with most books and newspapers.)
Posted Mar 30, 2012 1:55 UTC (Fri)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Mar 30, 2012 5:58 UTC (Fri)
by debacle (subscriber, #7114)
[Link] (4 responses)
(Btw. In the default theme, the look-and-feel of GNOME 3 seems to be less uniform/consistent than GNOME 2. Some windows/dialogs look completely different than most. But maybe these things are fixed in 3.4, which I will try as soon as it is in Debian.)
Posted Mar 30, 2012 7:17 UTC (Fri)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 30, 2012 13:41 UTC (Fri)
by debacle (subscriber, #7114)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 31, 2012 13:32 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (1 responses)
They don't want to limit the options, but if you explain the reasoning (need it for a11y), then it can be properly addressed.
E.g., option in a11y dialog maybe to do slight contract change (or background). Not the full back/white stuff.
Posted Apr 3, 2012 9:54 UTC (Tue)
by debacle (subscriber, #7114)
[Link]
Thanks in advance!
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CTRL+ALT+DEL is synonymous with a badly behaving computer
Any of those connotations were positive? For me (and my blissful ignorance of CTRL+ALT+DEL for many years, at least in practice, until I entered the corporate world) all of them are negative-to-pure-evil-incarnate.
Cultural connotations
Cultural connotations
Cultural connotations
I understand the historical and current purpose and meaning of CTRL+ALT+DEL.
To attach that stigma and historical baggage to something used to simply signal your UI shell that you want to reboot, logout, or shut down is unintuitive to uses moving from the windows world to the Linux desktop.
Cultural connotations
The only connotation it has for me is "Something the user is not likely to type by mistake." When you want to be sure it was a deliberate action it *may* be because it does something drastic. Linux's magic sysrq behavior serves exactly the same purpose.
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This sort of condescending attitude isn't very productive, is it? Just because Windows is less secure than Linux overall, doesn't mean we can't learn a lesson or two from it.
Yes, you are right, but I know the person I was replying to. The problem is every argument falls on deaf ears in this case and the FUD is being spread. ;)
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That said, there's no FUD here.
Windows is more secure in that it offers user-facing security features that Linux never has.
That's entirely different than the _design_ of Windows being one focusing on desktop security.
Linux has almost no solution here, besides adding SELinux (only even used on one major-ish distro) and some weak sand-boxing.
But hey, claim you know me, say that basic facts are "FUD," and then try to discredit me.
FUD: Windows is super-hyper (according to more than a few places), Linux is meh (according to more than a few places).On Linux, there's basically no way to be sure that the screen you're looking at is really your desktop or admin panel or whatever and not some other malware that injected itself via the a hole in the non-sandboxed Firefox processes Linux users are still primarily using as their Web browsers.
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One of the uses for it is on the login screen. Pressing ctrl-alt-delete there is a safety feature. Since no application can catch/override it, you can guarantee that if you press the key combination, you will either see the real login screen (not some malware pretending to be the login screen) or the system menu (if you were in fact not at the real login screen).
Secure Attention Key
Secure Attention Key
Secure Attention Key
You've just proved cortana's point. Note how he suggested to write Ctrl+Alt+Insert instead of Ctrl+Alt+Delete - and you've missed it. Sure, a lot of peoples will miss it, too, but since it's possible to detect Ctrl+Alt+Delete (VMWare does that), program should just close that window and wait for the next opportunity. Eventually user will actually read the text, will press the Ctrl+Alt+Insert and will give the password program is seeking.
Secure Attention Key
Secure Attention Key
User 2: "Oh, a message..." (doesn't read properly) Ctrl+Alt+Delete
User 3: Ctrl+Alt+Delete "Wait did that say... whatever, it worked"
User 4: "Oh, a message..." (doesn't read properly) Ctrl+Alt+Delete
User 5: "Ctrl+Alt+Insert? What's this? Hey, you, IT guy, why does this say Ctrl+Alt+Insert, don't you get tired of changing things for no reason?"
Administrator: "Mmm, infected PC. Wipe it and re-install"
[ Malware is no longer installed ]
Secure Attention Key
Secure Attention Key
Secure Attention Key
Someone would have to do an experiment to check, but this wouldn't be the first time it turned out users are (in a sense) too dumb to fall for a clever trick.
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From vague memory I thought that Ctrl-Alt-Delete in a Windows session brings up the task manager, or perhaps asks you if you want the task manager.
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"Click on your name on the right hand corner and select Suspend."
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> "Click on your name on the right hand corner and select Suspend."
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Actually, I prefer to start a new day with a clean desk and not have that old accumulated cruft around. But I installed an extension and am happy with that, no need to argue...
Come on, €40/year is not much. Now, those 127 kwh become 67 kg of CO2 a year. If GNOME shell became really popular and was used by, say, 200 million users with your same habits, that would be about 25 GWh/year, or 13 million metric tons of CO2 delivered to the atmosphere. I have not got to converting that to degrees of global heating but it does not look good.
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Thanks for the detailed computations.
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https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/358560:kde-45-deskt...
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/opensource/how-to-use-kd...
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> sixty messages deep from touchy GNOME developers.
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> most of the user's environment. And a shell without correctly set GPG and SSH agent
> environment variables is useless to me.
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> next time you decide to start with a clean slate..
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=582436
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Don't go telling me what that I should just accept that ("guys" remark, not last sentence).
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Assigned to: nobody
Status: closed (INVALID)
Description: Users tend to complain, usually in public forums, about things
they don't like. Also, they tend to give grumpy replies when told to file
bugs on the bug tracking system, although the worst responses are gotten
when they are told that they are wrong in disliking said things, and that
it's all for their own good.
Reproducible: always
Steps to reproduce:
1. remove some feature users rely on, or change it in incompatible ways,
preferably without prior warning.
2. release the modified version with much fanfare.
3. lurk in the said public forums and wait a bit.
Comments:
#1 by deity:
This works as intended, users where designed to operate that way.
Closing as invalid.GNOME 3.4 released
Actually I don't care, I just meant one doesn't really need to be aggressve towards people that report bugs neither when they file a bug in a tracker nor when they don't.
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https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=671962
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=671894
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=671856
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=671316
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=671099
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https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=659899
Congratulations to the GNOME team
Congratulations to the GNOME team
Congratulations to the GNOME team
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Could we maybe put an end to this sort of comment? We've heard this kind of stuff already; nothing good will come from repeating it. To post something like this now is really just trolling.
Please
OT: Accessibility problem with GNOME 3.2
OT: Accessibility problem with GNOME 3.2
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OT: Accessibility problem with GNOME 3.2
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OT: Accessibility problem with GNOME 3.2
OT: Accessibility problem with GNOME 3.2