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Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

May 25, 2010

This article was contributed by Nathan Willis

On May 19, Google unveiled something that many in the open source community had been expecting (and which the Free Software Foundation asked for in March): it made the VP8 video codec available to the public under a royalty-free, open source BSD-style license. Simultaneously, it introduced WebM, an HTML5-targeted open source audio-and-video delivery system using VP8, and announced a slew of corporate and open source WebM partners supporting the format, including web browsers and video sites such as its own YouTube property.

Dueling assessments, interested parties

The move was not unexpected. Google began trying to acquire VP8's creator, the codec shop On2, months ago, and speculation began even before the acquisition was final. The public reaction to the WebM launch was not unexpected, either. MPEG-LA, the commercial sellers of license for the competitor H.264 codec, suggested that anyone who used VP8 would get sued for patent infringement. An independent H.264 hacker quickly attacked VP8 as inferior on all technical counts, and surely in violation of multiple H.264 patents as well. H.264 proponents and general news sites began circulating that blog post, more so when Apple's Steve Jobs allegedly forwarded a link to it in response to an email asking his opinion on VP8.

Responses from the open source community itself have come in two flavors. The first was a long line of multimedia projects and companies announcing support for VP8 and WebM; some (like Mozilla and Collabora) were in the know before the deal was made public and working on their code, while others just reacted swiftly following the unveiling.

The second took on the opposition, rebutting both the MPEG-LA's public statements and the attacks of the H.264 hacker, Jason Garrett-Glaser. Many pointed out Garrett-Glaser's vested interest in H.264 being regarded as the technically best codec, given that he develops the x264 encoder project, and suggested that he was prejudiced against VP8 before even examining the release. StreamingMedia.com compared the codecs side-by-side, encoding the same source media at the same audio and video data rates, which Garrett-Glaser did not do, and concluded that there was no noticeable difference for most applications. Theora hacker Gregory Maxwell addressed the technical issues in an email to the Wikitech list, arguing that the initial release of Google's VP8 encoder represents a starting point ripe for optimization.

Other naysayers dismissed VP8 on the grounds that H.264 is already widely supported in hardware devices. That may be true, but most of this hardware support is in the form of embedded digital signal processor (DSP) code, and DSP ports of Theora were already in the works. Considering that Google has already funded ARM optimizations of Theora, there is grounds to believe it will push DSP playback of VP8 as well, and the company's Android platform is a likely place for it to make an appearance.

Patents and ambiguity

More important than the current (or even the potential-future) technical performance of VP8 is the question of whether it can legally be used under the terms spelled out in the WebM license and patent grant. It is clearly a technical improvement over Theora, but if the competition proved a genuine instance of patent infringement, the codec would need to be changed before it could be safely used.

On this point, again, there are two main threads of discussion. The first boils down to debate over the belief that VP8 must surely infringe on patents used in H.264 because the codecs share such a similar structure. Garrett-Glaser takes this stance, pointing out similarities in the algorithms. Xiph.org's Christopher "Monty" Montgomery dismissed that assessment as "serious hyperbole", and others in web article comment threads pointed out that all discrete cosine transform (DCT)-based codecs utilize the same basic steps; those steps are not what video codec patents cover.

Maxwell rebuffs the similarity argument as well, saying that Garrett-Glaser "has no particular expertise with patents, and even fairly little knowledge of the specific H.264 patents" due to the fact that x264 ignores them when implementing H.264 itself. He continued:

Codec patents are, in general, excruciatingly specific — it makes passing the examination much easier and doesn't at all reduce the patent's ability to cover the intended format because the format mandates the exact behavior. This usually makes them easy to avoid.

The second discussion thread amounts to divining whether H.264's patent licensor MPEG-LA will actually sue over a patent infringement charge against VP8. Here again, the public debate is dominated by assumptions: surely Google did a patent search that completely exonerated VP8; surely On2's patent lawyers knew what they were doing as they developed VP8 — and, alternatively, surely VP8 infringes somewhere, because there are just so many patents in H.264; surely VP8 infringes somewhere, because H.264 was created by the best codec authors using the best technologies.

To get out of the "surely" mire, consider the actual possibilities case by case. It is logical to suggest that if MPEG-LA has a genuine case, it will sue. If it does not have a genuine case, the question is whether the consortium will sue anyway to cause market confusion and buy time to continue selling H.264 patent licenses. But either way, the risks in filing a lawsuit are extraordinarily high — because Google could easily counter-sue.

Despite MPEG-LA's promotional material suggesting that blanket rights to use H.264 come with a license, the actual guarantee of the patent pool is quite weak:

No assurance is or can be made that the License includes every essential patent. The purpose of the License is to offer a convenient licensing alternative to everyone on the same terms and to include as much essential intellectual property as possible for their convenience. Participation in the License is voluntary on the part of essential patent holders, however.

Clarity, please

In other words, submarine patents and patent trolls can threaten H.264 — and in theory, On2 and Google may hold such patents. So what will MPEG-LA do? CEO Larry Horn already suggested, without directly claiming, that it believes it has a genuine case against VP8. Whether it does or doesn't, actually filing an infringement lawsuit could gamble away the H.264 cash cow. The far safer route is to make noise in public, pursue licensing deals with software and hardware vendors as long as possible, and work on the next codec licensing bundle. For its part, Google has done little in public other than express its confidence that there is no patent issue.

That sounds unsatisfying to the left-brained software developer, who would prefer a clear, bright line to be drawn with VP8 either on the "safe" or "unsafe" side. Unfortunately, the modern patent game does not work that way. In practice, patents are hidden weapons that can be used to sue (and threaten to sue) opponents. All commercial players hold them, and due to the vast number of patents granted — as well as the unknown reach of those patents — many are effectively hidden away until used in an attack.

Still, some have already suggested that Google can and should provide some level of increased clarity by publicly and transparently documenting the patents it now owns on VP8, and the patent search process it used to determine that nothing in VP8 infringed on a competitor's patents. Florian Mueller of FOSS Patents commented:

At the very least I think Google should look at the patents held by the MPEG LA pool as well as patents held by some well-known 'trolls' and explain why those aren't infringed. Programmers have a right to get that information so they can make an informed decision for themselves whether to take that risk or not. It's not unreasonable to ask Google to perform a well-documented patent clearance because they certainly have the resources in place while most open source developers don't.

Rob Glidden, formerly of Sun, contrasted Google's one-shot announcement of VP8 with the process Sun used when working on the now-shuttered Open Media Stack video codec project, which "based their work on identifiable IPR [intellectual property rights] foundations, documented their patent strategy, and [was] willing to work with bona-fide standards groups to address and resolve IPR issues." By choosing to "go on their own", he added, Google actually undermines the open standards process the web relies on.

On the other hand, Google might consider it to be to its own advantage to keep the company's VP8 patent research secret, in order to force potential attackers to do more work looking for an infringement. No one does (nor should they) expect MPEG-LA to act with the clarity being asked of Google. At times MPEG-LA likes to present itself as if it is a standards body — one that produces technical work reflecting the consensus of industry, and ratifying the best possible ideas into global specifications. But that simply is not true. MPEG-LA is a for-profit business, selling its products and marketing them on behalf of its members and against all competitors.

Since its product is protection from a lawsuit by MPEG-LA itself, it gains nothing by drawing clear, bright lines. Even Horn's comment about creating a VP8 patent pool is couched in qualifiers and vague language: "there have been expressions of interest" and "we are looking into the prospects of doing so".

Of course, this is all really about HTML5 ... and money

Behind this entire fight is the availability of a free-to-implement video codec for HTML5. MPEG-LA and its pool members fought against Theora, and they will now do the same against VP8. Do not expect MPEG-LA to change its tune and support a completely free codec, ever; if it did the organization would have no reason to exist. MPEG-LA wants H.264 to win, not because it is better technically, but because it is their product.

Open source software is in a weird position in relation to MPEG-LA's licensing model. Even though it is the end users who infringe on the patents by watching H.264 content, the MPEG-LA requires anyone distributing codecs, like browser vendors, to pay for a license. That's just not possible for free software.

MPEG-LA has pushed back the date at which it will start charging royalty fees for streaming H.264 on the Internet until 2015, and even then there is a chance that they will push it back again. It does not explicitly care about the open source browser market itself; it has simply set up a fee structure that puts free software in an awkward position. The real money comes from video production and editing suites, and from large video hosting sites that transcode millions of videos.

Consequently, the real battle for VP8 adoption may be there as well. Google put out a long list of WebM-supporting partners when it unveiled the project, including several important proprietary software companies like creative-application-juggernaut Adobe and Quicktime's former star Sorenson. While MPEG-LA has more to lose than to gain by suing Google over VP8 today, that could change if these video production pipeline players start to shift over to WebM in a big way. If that happens, it might be the final straw which causes MPEG-LA to resort to the courtroom.


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Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 25, 2010 20:58 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (12 responses)

Pretty good.

I would like to see some clarification from Google on the patent situation as just a way to help reassure people on Vp8's usefullness.

Personally I am actually pretty confident on it. Not 100%, but it seems to me that for people developing a new codec that does not require compatibility AND have the resources to hire the lawyers to read patents.... then it should be relatively easy to avoid infringing on MPEG-LA patents.

Why do I feel this way?

Because all the MPEG-LA Patents are KNOWN.

They are published, listed, enforced, and so on and so forth. Soooo... What Google had to do would be to go through the patents lists published by MPEG-LA and double check that Vp8 avoided at least one claim on each patent. Then: Bingo! MPEG-LA threat nullified.

Known patents are major threat to open source when it comes to creating very compatible software. Stuff like texture compression techniques for OpenGL acceleration hardware, compatibility with MS Office formats, compatibility with H.264 and things like that. That sort of thing hurts OSS badly, but it's not the type of threat that should affect Vp8 as long as all known relavent patents are owned by Google and such.

It's the UNKOWN patents that are the biggest threat. Things owned by patent trolls that may be applied against VP8 in unpredictable ways, submarine patents, and all that crap.

It's not like MPEG-LA patents are a secret or it's impossible to find out what they cover... All patents literature and related relevent documentation is all public domain and MPEG-LA lists all of them. It's the weird unknown shit floating around owned by smaller groups and not published anywere in pools and such that is a threat against VP8..... And like it's pointed out in the article it's a threat against H.264, too!

MPEG-LA does not indemify you against patent trolls anymore or any less then Google or anybody else does. It's all a threat to anybody and avoiding Vp8 is not going to help you out any in any predictable fashion.

So I figure that unless MPEG-LA or somebody else goes out and specifically calls Google out AND lists the patents that Vp8 violates I figure Webm is about as safe as anything else to use.

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 25, 2010 21:20 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

you are right when you say the MPEG-LA patents are known, but that really doesn't matter because nothing says that all the patents that cover those codecs are part of the MPEG-LA group.

there can be unknown patents for covering any codec.

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 25, 2010 22:50 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Yes. That is exactly my point.
I do not believe mpegla is a likely threat and their patent pool is no use against unknown patents.

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 26, 2010 8:10 UTC (Wed) by liljencrantz (guest, #28458) [Link] (1 responses)

Of course, but by definition, you are not safe from those patents when paying MPEG-LA for a right to use H264 either. So you're not any more safe when using H264 than you are when using WebM.

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted Jun 8, 2010 15:58 UTC (Tue) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link]

Did you mean to say,
> than So you're not any more safe when *paying and* using H264 than you are when using WebM.

Software patents are insulting to decency and to progress. Except for the troll situation, they are protectionist, serving to protect the large producers from the small producers.

Open source gets sucker punched because our innovation is not given automatic patent protection as is the case for copyright protection (imagine if there were no GPL conditions possible for us but proprietary companies could still use aggressive copyrights against us). Thus patent holders and licensees can use our innovation all they want, but we can't use their patents without licenses. This doesn't exactly present a fair market condition, and the bias is in favor of the more secretive and greedy (who already exploit trade secret). Our patent system is a system to protect the wealthy and less productive (who can spend their days patenting theirs and others general concepts) from the majority of us working on full and high quality solutions. All small outfits suffer (including the closed source based ones) because we have our shared open source cushion removed.

Software patents violate the US Constitution because they don't promote the progress. They also violate our First Amendment right to freely express ourselves and communicate as we find necessary and proper.

Software patents surely are not needed in order to make decent income.

Patents allowed in other information fields would have done great harm, as the biggest breakthroughs and highest quality products/theories/etc, have all depended greatly on sharing and leveraging others' work and ideas. It's impossible to bypass society. "Revolutionary" breakthroughs don't overcome or exist independently of social context. Granting long broad monopolies is very arrogant, foolish, and stifling (more so because the low obviousness bar means, statistically, many above average practitioners developing ideas and products further will have their work pulled out from under them by less skilled individuals).

http://www.unionsquareventures.com/2010/02/software-paten...

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 25, 2010 21:47 UTC (Tue) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (3 responses)

ON2 Made a big deal about their codec's being "patent free" in that they had done the patent research and made sure their codec's didn't infringe any known patent they didn't own. This was long before the Google purchase. Their whole business model was "we can sell you this codec for far cheaper than the MPEG-LA license and we guarantee it doesn't infringe the MPEG-LA patent pool".

Personally I think MPEG-LA will keep blowing smoke and paying for Astroturf studies, but in the end they will never sue because they don't want to risk the patents in the pool being invalidated or providing court evidence that VP8 doesn't infringe MPEG-LA patents. If they sue and Google wins, bam the whole world shifts to VP8 and the MPEG-LA patent pool becomes worthless.

No, they won't sue, it's far to big a risk. It's far easier to spread FUD.

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 25, 2010 23:02 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Yes. And because we know this then...

The burden of proof is on mpeg-la's shoulders. If the best they can come with is fud, then that effectely means they are admitting that vp8 doesn't violate any of their patents, or Google has a patent they violate. Either way they would be toothless.

On2 vs. the MPEG LA

Posted May 29, 2010 9:35 UTC (Sat) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (1 responses)

> On2 Made a big deal about their codec's being "patent free" in that they
> had done the patent research and made sure their codec's didn't infringe
> any known patent they didn't own.

This is a hearsay rumor that gets repeated all the time, but I see no basis for it in reality. Please present us with a quote that shows On2 claiming VP8 does not infringe any MPEG LA patents.

If you look at the list of licensees in good standing for the AVC/H.264 patent pool of the MPEG LA

http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/AVC/Pages/Licensees.aspx

you will find On2 (and Google) there. There was absolutely no need for On2 to avoid any patents from that pool, they paid for using them. On the contrary, if any of the described techniques would help them reach their goal of improving their own codecs quicker, it made good business sense to use them...

On2 vs. the MPEG LA

Posted May 29, 2010 10:13 UTC (Sat) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

Licensing the AVC pool only gives you the right to use those patents in an implementation of H.264. It does not give you the right to use those patents in an implementation of VP8. So On2 being an AVC licensee is completely irrelevant here.

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 26, 2010 5:32 UTC (Wed) by brouhaha (subscriber, #1698) [Link] (3 responses)

It isn't sufficient to avoid one claim of each patent. You have to avoid ALL the claims of each patent.

There is also a very good reason for some parties NOT to study the MPEG-LA patents. If you have seen someone else's patents, and are later found to be infringing them, it establishes "knowing infringement", for which the penalty can be much higher.

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 26, 2010 9:16 UTC (Wed) by bboissin (subscriber, #29506) [Link] (2 responses)

> It isn't sufficient to avoid one claim of each patent. You have to avoid ALL the claims of each patent.

Not if you dismiss the independant claim.

> There is also a very good reason for some parties NOT to study the MPEG-LA patents. If you have seen someone else's patents, and are later found to be infringing them, it establishes "knowing infringement", for which the penalty can be much higher.

As pointed out by Tridge, this isn't really true for most open source software, as the "simple" penalty already effectively kills the project.
http://news.swpat.org/2010/03/transcript-tridgell-patents...

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 31, 2010 17:30 UTC (Mon) by mlankhorst (subscriber, #52260) [Link] (1 responses)

For open source perhaps, but triple damage on google just means the patent trolls can buy an even bigger villa at some tropical island..

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 31, 2010 17:41 UTC (Mon) by bboissin (subscriber, #29506) [Link]

But it's very likely that Google engineers (and others from big companies) do read patents, and use their legal dpt to check for potential infrigement. The problem is different than the usual small OSS project.

Confusing MPEG and MPEG-LA

Posted May 25, 2010 23:22 UTC (Tue) by Tester (guest, #40675) [Link] (8 responses)

First, you seem to be confusing MPEG (the Moving Picture Experts Group) which is a group inside ISO that defines standards like MPEG 1, 2 and 4. This is a non-profit group that writes technical standards. And then there is MPEG-LA, which is an unrelated for-profit corporation that provides patent licensing services to its members.

Second, if you read Jason's blog post correctly, he's not saying VP8 sucks. He's saying that, as a codecs geek, he's disappointed to see that there is nothing new and exciting in there, but that instead, they've applied known techniques. The On2 marketing people had claimed to be much better than H.264, but he did not see anything in there to warrant that.

Confusing MPEG and MPEG-LA

Posted May 26, 2010 0:46 UTC (Wed) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (6 responses)

His test wasn't fair either. His comparisons were done with completely different settings. You can't put one on maximum compression, and another on maximum image quality then compare image quality and bash the other codec. His article was decidedly biased and he cooked the results from the codec's with different optimizations and settings to get what he wanted.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if MPEG-LA paid him money to write the article. These days most articles of this nature are usually part of a paid advertising/FUD campaign. Only neutral sources where the entire (including all settings) testing procedure is documented should be trusted.

Confusing MPEG and MPEG-LA

Posted May 26, 2010 1:00 UTC (Wed) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link]

This is preposterous nonsense. Google gave Jason access to VP8 under NDA prior to releasing it so that he could study and comment on it. If somebody studies VP8 and the result is not what you would like it to be, conspiracy is very much not the only sensible explanation.

Confusing MPEG and MPEG-LA

Posted May 26, 2010 1:08 UTC (Wed) by Tester (guest, #40675) [Link] (1 responses)

In his basic comparison, he puts all of the codecs in maximum PSNR mode. I don't see him putting one at high and one at low quality. And he basically says that the result of the VP8 encoder is almost as good as x264's encoding in H.264 baseline.

And Jason is anything but a fan of the MPEG-LA.

Confusing MPEG and MPEG-LA

Posted May 27, 2010 3:16 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

No, he says it's better than H.264 baseline.

Confusing MPEG and MPEG-LA

Posted May 26, 2010 4:48 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (2 responses)

> Personally I wouldn't be surprised if MPEG-LA paid him money to write the article.

Attempting to destroying or damage a messenger's reputation because he expressed a message you did not like is a very very lousy way to improve the quality of a video codec.

Confusing MPEG and MPEG-LA

Posted May 26, 2010 10:22 UTC (Wed) by bawjaws (guest, #56952) [Link] (1 responses)

A related quote on damaging reputations from Dark Shikari:

"Xiph [is disliked because of] the methods that Xiph uses to market their bad technology. They have at times posted outright lies about their software and then, once proven wrong, often refuse to recant. Example: the Theora vs x264 PSNR comparison where they "accidentally" performed measurement wrong, making x264 appear 2x worse.

They use the same techniques as many of the more evil commercial companies out there, which annoys the hell out of people who disagree with such techniques. ffmpeg devs believe that open source should be about honesty and good technology, not lies and FUD. Xiph disagrees, believing that "the ends justify the means", creating a practically unbridgeable gulf.

Thus Xiph has spent the last few years spreading absurd amounts of FUD about everyone who they believe opposes them."

from here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1164764

It appears the shoe is on the other foot now that the discussion has moved from quality to patents and his own project looks to come off worst. He's posted minor updates to his piece about certain patent areas he commented on, but his conclusions still stand uncorrected and I think you'll find his words quoted all across the internet on the patent situation with regards to VP8, something which he clearly isn't an expert on.

Confusing MPEG and MPEG-LA

Posted May 26, 2010 17:25 UTC (Wed) by gmaxwell (guest, #30048) [Link]

I'm pretty sure that Jason would no longer stand by that statement-- he was simply blowing off steam there. I think that we have a good working relationship with him. It's a bit unfortunate that every comment one of makes on an obscure forum or mailing list will forever be quoted as some kind of official statement.

The comparison he did with VP8 wasn't unfair but it is important to understand it for what it is: A comparison between something very mature and well developed with something very new and raw. Even given that VP8 did reasonably well- it was quite competitive with x264's baseline profile encode.

Confusing MPEG and MPEG-LA

Posted Jun 3, 2010 17:30 UTC (Thu) by n8willis (subscriber, #43041) [Link]

I'm not the least bit confused about the differences between MPEG and MPEG-LA. All of the statements cited were by MPEG-LA and Larry Horn; MPEG itself had no direct connection to the story, and was not mentioned in it.

Nate

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 1:23 UTC (Wed) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (29 responses)

This article does not meet the quality standards I have come to expect from lwn.net.

False claims are made about Jason Garrett-Glaser's article on VP8, but not even a link to that article is given in order for the readers to draw conclusions on their own. Here is the missing link:

http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=377

Contrary to what this article claims Jason *did* post comparison images, here are two out of many:

http://doom10.org/compare/vp8.png
http://doom10.org/compare/x264.png

The apparent confusion about MPEG vs. MPEG LA has already been mentioned.

I could go on, but I just find it sad to see that most recent codec-related articles on lwn.net are often tinted by wishful thinking instead of presenting hard facts.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 1:41 UTC (Wed) by jake (editor, #205) [Link]

> Here is the missing link

While your other complaints may have some merit, this one is not correct. That link is quite prominent in the article, second paragraph in fact.

I am sorry that you didn't find it to your liking, but I don't at all think it was 'badly researched', whatever the mistakes made.

jake

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 2:05 UTC (Wed) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link] (3 responses)

I have to agree with this criticism of the article. It presents misleading or incorrect summaries of the primary sources. While the article serves a useful function in providing links to them, it does a disservice in summarizing them badly before moving on to a "follow the money" argument rather than a technical overview.

It would have been more useful, for example, to approach the issue of patent avoidance from a different angle. Jason's analysis points out several things notably missing from VP8, first among them B-frames, that one would expect could be the starting point for further improvements. But if they were deliberately omitted to avoid patent claims, then this avenue of improvement may be closed off. This issue was raised in several of the primary sources linked to in the article, but could have been brought out more clearly in the article itself.

B-frames.

Posted May 26, 2010 6:19 UTC (Wed) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link] (1 responses)

first among them B-frames,

Didn't B-frames already appear in MPEG-1? Any patent on the idea has expired or will expire soon (drafts of the MPEG-1 spec were published already in 1990 claims this).

B-frames.

Posted May 26, 2010 11:16 UTC (Wed) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]

B-frames may have been present in MPEG-1, but that does not mean the patents have expired, in every country, and that there are no other patents that continue the earlier patents, or that are worded differently enough to be considered separate patents, and hence filed later, but similarly enough to still cover the same subject matter.

This is not a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 10:08 UTC (Wed) by bawjaws (guest, #56952) [Link]

I'd read all the articles before I read this and didn't spot any that were poorly summarized, even though I personally would have added some different context to some of them.

This article has more info on what design decisions in VP8 are likely to have been impacted by patents:

http://carlodaffara.conecta.it/?p=420

I note that the original Dark Shikari article has been updated multiple times by the author (search for "update:"). The initial burst of updates where to add more damning evidence of On2/Google incompetence in not doing things the obviously better MPEG-approved way, but the later ones acknowledge that the decisions made more sense in light of patent issues he was unaware of, or of features of the VP8 encoder that he didn't fully understand.

Static v.s. moving images

Posted May 26, 2010 10:10 UTC (Wed) by AndyBurns (guest, #27521) [Link] (6 responses)

> Contrary to what this article claims Jason *did* post comparison images
> here are two out of many:
>
> http://doom10.org/compare/vp8.png
> http://doom10.org/compare/x264.png

Given several seconds to flick backwards and forwards between the images I can see differences, but not necessarily say which is better; with 24 or 30 images per second I suspect it would be even harder to decide which is best.

Static v.s. moving images

Posted May 26, 2010 11:41 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

You'd likely perceive one as "sharper" than the other, even without consciously noting the extra details. Our brains are quite good at such fast, parallel processing.

Static vs moving images

Posted May 29, 2010 17:21 UTC (Sat) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

You'd likely perceive one as "sharper" than the other, even without consciously noting the extra details. Our brains are quite good at such fast, parallel processing.

Actually, fast is one thing the brain is not. That's the reason that 24 frames per second is ususally indistinguishable from continuous motion.

Parallel, yes.

In this case, the most important feature of the brain is it's ability to track a moving object. It sees the object, not a series of scenes with the object in different places. So watching a ball move across the screen for 2 seconds is as good as staring at a single frame for 2 seconds for noticing how sharp the ball is.

Static v.s. moving images

Posted May 26, 2010 15:25 UTC (Wed) by DonDiego (guest, #24141) [Link] (3 responses)

x264 clearly preserves more detail, VP8 is blurrier. Thus x264 is better.

You are free to choose VP8 (or any other codec) nonetheless, but the quality difference is not something that can be honestly disputed.

Static v.s. moving images

Posted May 26, 2010 17:14 UTC (Wed) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link] (2 responses)

Are these images from the same bitrate and quality settings ?
The 264 one is indeed much sharper, it looks like twice the resolution of the vp8 one.

Alex

Static v.s. moving images

Posted May 28, 2010 20:23 UTC (Fri) by dododge (guest, #2870) [Link] (1 responses)

From his blog post:
all encoders are optimized for optimal visual quality wherever possible. [...] the bitrate is (as close as possible to) the same on all of these files.
He also provides the motion clips the frames came from, as well as comparisons with H.264 Baseline, Theora, Dirac, and others.

The test was unfair

Posted May 29, 2010 7:47 UTC (Sat) by bawjaws (guest, #56952) [Link]

The test *is* biased, just not in brutally obvious ways. Not that I think VP8 would have won in a fair fight with x264, but in many ways that just makes it less acceptable.

The test clip benefits greatly from an x264 feature not generally found in other encoders, even other H.264 ones. He actually calls this out earlier in the article as the greatest single improvement in x264 and links to before and after images:

before: http://doom10.org/compare/parkrun_psnr.png
after; http://doom10.org/compare/parkrun_ssim.png

Notice anything familiar? Yes, it's basically the same clip that he's been tuning for, and the problems you see in the competing encoders are very similar to the ones you see in x264 before this was added (blurring in high frequency areas).

On top of that he's done the old classic of choosing the testing bitrate so that the favoured codec looks 'bad' but the competitors look 'terrible'. If you compare with the original (conveniently not provided) you'll notice that even the best x264 encode totally wrecks the human figures, making them look like the pixelated sprites from the original Mortal Kombat. If the bitrate had been increased to make x264 look actually good then the competitors would have increased quality proportionally more, if it had been dropped lower than both would have looked different shades of terrible.

You can see this effect better in the comparisons at http://www.quavlive.com/video_codec_comparison where the bitrates where chosen to match standard Youtube sizes and bitrates. One clip, with the bee, is 'easy' so both encoders look effectively identical, while the parkjoy clip from the x264 test and another riverbed one, are difficult so both look kind of rubbish.

Maybe extreme clips and bitrates are necessary for codec quality testing when encoders start to converge in quality, and maybe comparing your known strong points against competitors' known weak points is standard practice in marketing material, but both seem out of place in an article billed as an in-depth technical analysis of a new codec. It features a single image of the codec output and it happens to be of a carefully engineered failure mode. Is it any wonder that the second most common summary of this analysis you see accompanying links to it (after "turns out it infringes H.264 patents") is "turns out it sucks".

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 10:25 UTC (Wed) by KotH (guest, #4660) [Link] (12 responses)

Badly researched doesnt really cover it.

It's realy unnerving to see how much FUD is spread over LWN when it comes to video coding. Please, if you want to write about video coding, then talk to the guys who actually do work on it. Talk to the guys from FFmpeg, VLC, MPlayer, Xine, XviD, x264,...

Then, about the article. Yes, Jason might be biased. Yes, he is an x264 developer. But if you read his blog post you'll see that he tries to have a balanced, technical analysis of VP8 compared to h.264. He isn't attacking it, neither does he bash it. And he definitly does not claim that VP8 violates any patents (he writes that the claim that VP8 is patent free is dodgy at best). And unlike most of the people who do compare different video codecs, he actually knows how to do a fair comparison without bias towards one or the other, even accounting for suboptimal implentations.

I wonder what the "long line of multimedia projects and companies announcing support for VP8 and WebM" is. FFmpeg (for those who don't know, it's the one single project that matters most when it comes to video coding as _every_ OSS video software uses FFmpeg somewhere and a lot, if not most comercial software does too) did not announce anything, neither was it "in the know before the deal was made". Also, FFmpeg did not get any patches until after the public anouncement. Some of the simpler patches were quickly commited, the rest will at least take a few weeks until all of them are ready to be included.

I also think that google should be a lot more open on whos work they are building on. For example, the container of webm is matroska, just relabled as webm. But with no word are they thanked for the great work they have done to create this container. They are simple forgotten in all the hype creation machinery.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 12:23 UTC (Wed) by liljencrantz (guest, #28458) [Link]

For the "long line of multimedia projects and companies announcing support for VP8 and WebM" that you're wondering about, look no further than the WebM home page:

Adobe
AMD
ARM
Brightcove
Broadcom
Collabora
Digital Rapids
Encoding.com
Grab Networks
iLinc
INLET
Kaltura
Logitech
MIPS
Mozilla
Nvidia
Ooyala
Opera
Qualcomm
Skype
Sorenson
Telestream
Texas Instruments
Verisilicon
ViewCast
Wildform

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 13:57 UTC (Wed) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link] (4 responses)

I also think that google should be a lot more open on whos work they are building on. For example, the container of webm is matroska, just relabled as webm. But with no word are they thanked for the great work they have done to create this container. They are simple forgotten in all the hype creation machinery.

Perhaps you'd like them to say something like this on their "about" page?

What is WebM?

WebM is an open, royalty-free, media file format designed for the web.

WebM defines the file container structure, video and audio formats. WebM files consist of video streams compressed with the VP8 video codec and audio streams compressed with the Vorbis audio codec. The WebM file structure is based on the Matroska container.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 17:36 UTC (Wed) by Sho (subscriber, #8956) [Link]

While I agree with you, it's worth mentioning that Google worked together with the Matroska folks on WebM, and that the Matroska website has posted a notice of full support, as have individual Matroska developers in their blogs.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 18:15 UTC (Wed) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (2 responses)

Yes, I would like to see that. All I can see now is

is WebM?

an open, royalty-free, media file format designed for the web.

fines the file container structure, video and audio formats. WebM files
video streams compressed with the VP8 video codec and audio streams 
ed with the Vorbis audio codec. The WebM file structure is based on the 
a container.
No mention of Matroska.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 18:37 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

Must be some problem with your browser or something. It clearly does mention Matroska and links to it even.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 27, 2010 8:54 UTC (Thu) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

There is clearly a broken interaction between their stylesheet and your browser.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 27, 2010 3:39 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (4 responses)

> And he definitly does not claim that VP8 violates any patents (he writes
> that the claim that VP8 is patent free is dodgy at best)

Right, he doesn't make any concrete claims that could be refuted, he just speculates and suggests. That's called FUD.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 27, 2010 9:37 UTC (Thu) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link] (3 responses)

>Right, he doesn't make any concrete claims that could be refuted, he just speculates and suggests. That's called FUD.


Yes, because clearly anyone trying to point out any problem somebody might have, but without investing millions in a full solution and handing it over on a silver platter with dinner and a movie, is engaging in FUD.

Please, now you're just being offensively paranoid.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 27, 2010 10:12 UTC (Thu) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

Cut the rhetoric, please. I didn't see anyone asking for a full solution on a silver platter, except you in this comment. And I'm afraid that I agree with roc; he doesn't point to patents which are infringed, and say "I think you infringe this patent". Instead, he says, "well, this is very similar to H.264 (which we know is patent encumbered), but slightly different. Ergo, the patents we know about might affect it, so you can't claim you don't need a patent licence to use it without being on dodgy legal ground".

It's no different from me saying "well, we know Microsoft have software patents on Windows and Office, and Linux with GNOME and OpenOffice.org is awfully similar to Windows and Office. Ergo, the patents we know about might affect it, so you can't claim you don't need a patent licence to use it without being on dodgy legal ground."

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 29, 2010 10:20 UTC (Sat) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (1 responses)

He didn't point out any specific problems, that's why it's FUD.

If he said something like "VP8 infringes patent #1234567 on flux capacitor tuning", that would have identified a problem specific enough to be refuted, and would not have been FUD.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted Jun 1, 2010 11:27 UTC (Tue) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link]

Do you have any idea of the kind of work you are demanding? It's fairly obvious that you are strongly biased here, so there is probably no convincing you, but let's try to take this into another domain which may be more comfortable.

Let's imagine we're talking about, say, performance. One individual has undertaken to provide a review of another's work, though it is of no benefit to them. Looking over it, they point out several sections and say: 'I think this technique might not be too good. Perhaps you could research this bit and see if you might improve it. Right now it would cost me a lot of time to look into it for you myself, and I could well be wrong, but I hope this pointer is of some use'. Is that FUD? 'He pointed out an area which looks suspicious, but didn't fully analyse or benchmark it! That monster!'.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 31, 2010 22:26 UTC (Mon) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

Would you please care to disclose your own involvement in video codec development, or other multimedia projects, or explain that there is no involvement?

Thanks.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 10:31 UTC (Wed) by liljencrantz (guest, #28458) [Link] (2 responses)

I think you're misreading the part of the article about comparison images. I believe the article does not mean to imply that Garrett-Glaser did not post comparison images, I think it meant to imply that unlike the comparison images posted by Garrett-Glaser, those posted by StreamingMedia used comparable bit rates. Ironically, the article is still wrong, as all files are between 16 and 17 MB in size, the VP8 one being among the larger.

If you read what the actual comparisons compared, though, you'll find something interesting. Garret-Glaser compared VP8 to various codecs, including H264 with either of baseline and high profile, and concluded that VP8 is roughly comparable to the baseline profile, but noticeably worse than the high profile. StreamingMedia compared VP8 only to the H264 baseline profile and also found they where very much comparable, i.e. the exact same result with a rather different slant.

The question is what people _should_ be comparing VP8 with. It seems to me that the H264 baseline profile is what is actually used in the real world today. The video players on my system (mplayer and Totem under Jaunty) could not correctly play the high profile H264-clip from Garret-Glaser's site. My n900 phone claims to support h264 but only supports the baseline profile. My previous phone, the iPhone, also only supports the baseline profile. As near as I can tell from my own experiences, if we're considering VP8 as the challenger that needs to displace the currently entrenched H264 with it's vast base of installed players, we must compare VP8 with H264 baseline, because that seems to be the only thing that can be reliably played on systems advertising H264 support. On the other hand, if we're talking pure tech and wondering about which format has the coolest technical toys, there is no reason to restrict our comparison to the baseline profile any more.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 10:36 UTC (Wed) by liljencrantz (guest, #28458) [Link] (1 responses)

Just checked, content encoded with the main H264 profile works fine on my Ubuntu system, it is only high profile that doesn't work. Also, Android devices don't support anything but H264 baseline.

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 26, 2010 21:04 UTC (Wed) by Tester (guest, #40675) [Link]

Almost all mobile DSP chips that claim to support H.264 only support the baseline profile.

This is one of the untold reasons why Flash video isn't supported on most mobile devices (because it uses the Main profile)

This is a badly researched article.

Posted May 31, 2010 22:28 UTC (Mon) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

Would you please disclose your own involvement in video codec development, or multimedia projects, or declare explicitly that you are not involved and just a user?

Thanks in advance.

WebM website

Posted May 26, 2010 8:16 UTC (Wed) by pjm (guest, #2080) [Link]

It's funny that we're describing this as a great win for interoperability & standards, when the WebM website itself won't display properly in any windows narrower than 1000px wide, and relies heavily on image display for content.

(I've optimistically sent mail to webmaster@www.webmproject.org suggesting specific changes to the stylesheet, but I don't know whether a human will actually see it.)

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 26, 2010 9:09 UTC (Wed) by xnox (guest, #63320) [Link]

I don't believe MPEG-LA will sue at all. They do not own the patents, individual pool members own the patents. If some members of MPEG-LA want to sue VP8 they might be out-of luck cause their specific patents are not infringed and they need to get other members on board for a stronger case in court. I doubt that *all* MPEG-LA members will ever agree to go after Google because most of them will be afraid of individual counter-suits which they might loose.

MPEG-LA patent pool was set up to prevent these companies from suing each other (which surely would end up in a huge industry wide mess) and some of the smaller members would like to use something else for free =) cause currently they are paying more to MPEG-LA that they are getting from it.

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 26, 2010 12:29 UTC (Wed) by sorpigal (guest, #36106) [Link] (2 responses)

What I was looking for and did not see in all of this is something from Google stating that they are submitting VP8 or VP8+Matroska+Vorbis to a standards body. It's nice if it's patent free and open source but it isn't a standard until it's a standard... and I would prefer the independent review that the process would likely entail.

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 26, 2010 13:05 UTC (Wed) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link] (1 responses)

And which standards body should be reviewing this?

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 26, 2010 14:28 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Whichever one Google prefers working with? ISO and IETF are the main technology ones. IETF requires disclosure of patents from participants, which may be a benefit (presuming ISO does not have such rules).

Swift and predictable reactions to WebM

Posted May 26, 2010 15:54 UTC (Wed) by njh (subscriber, #4425) [Link]

One thing that occurs to me: I have seen a lot of speculation and commentary on whether Google has done sufficient due-diligence with respect to the question of whether VP8 infringes on any MPEG-LA patents, but not much about the reverse question.

Between competing corporations patents tend to be something that they horde so that they can be used in defensive "mutually-assured-destruction" threats - "if you don't attempt to enforce patent X against us, we will not attempt to enforce patent Y against you ...".

On2 have been in the video codec business for a while now. I wonder if Google have inherited any On2 patents that could be used to put the thumbscrews on H.264, or other portfolios that MPEG-LA care about ... ?


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