Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 15:56 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
In reply to: Installing Debian on modern hardware by madhatter
Parent article: Installing Debian on modern hardware

It's not presuposition, but basic logic: you cannot have software freedom without working hardware. So the choice is closed hardware+propierary software vs closed hardware+free software.

Hardware freedom is a highly desirable thing to have, of course, but maybe it should be a task for another entity, which we may call the Free Computing Foundation if you like.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 16:27 UTC (Thu) by madhatter (subscriber, #4665) [Link] (11 responses)

That seems a very black-and-white view, when things are in fact greyer. These binary peripheral firmware blobs don't make all peripherals work: it's only WiFi cards that seem to have developed that way. So if you decide you value freedom over convenience you can still have a happily working setup, it just may need an ethernet cable.

It's clear - not least from Jeremy Stanley's comment as quoted in the original article - that some people would make exactly that choice, and it's not clear that Debian shouldn't be supporting them.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 16:52 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

> it just may need an ethernet cable.

And an ethernet adapter to plug that cable into.

And an ethernet port for the other end of the cable too.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 30, 2021 1:34 UTC (Sat) by immibis (subscriber, #105511) [Link] (1 responses)

are you... suggesting that's a *problem* at all?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 30, 2021 2:03 UTC (Sat) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

If you don't have an ethernet adapter, a cable, and something to plug said cable into, then yes, that qualifies as a pretty big problem.

And why would you have an ethernet adapter lying around? After all, you haven't needed one for the last five years or so.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 19:43 UTC (Thu) by joib (subscriber, #8541) [Link] (1 responses)

Won't the people who value freedom over convenience be able to exercise their freedom to not use wifi, regardless of whether their install image contains wifi firmware or not?

What freedom is taken away from the user if the install image contains also non-free firmware, but the user chooses to never load them?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 5:10 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

Exactly! Who is respecting my freedom by hiding from me the installer I need to get the laptop that I have fully functional? Why does that not feel anything like respect, or freedom?

If I feel like I am being made a pawn in somebody's doomed power struggle with people unaware they (or I) exist, is it because that is precisely what is going on? To throw around the word "respect" so ironically becomes recognizably more akin to contempt.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 0:45 UTC (Fri) by fung1 (subscriber, #144307) [Link]

The quote was taken somewhat out of context, and if you read the ML thread I clarify my position in followup. Debian currently has two official flavors of install media: one where you can choose to supply missing firmware necessary to complete the install, and one which ships with a collection of so called "non-free" firmware and tools which will be automatically installed for you if it matches the detected hardware. The message to which that quote was replying suggested the latter installer "works for everyone," and I was countering that I still personally found value in Debian providing an installer which does not automatically install opaque binary firmware blobs.

I don't object to using an installer containing some software which isn't provided under a free/libre open source license, for me it's about consciously reviewing what bits of it I absolutely need and being able to choose to not install bits I don't require (perhaps for system components I have no interest in using). Hunting down and sneaker-netting firmware in on separate removable media isn't convenient no, and it's not as if I take any enjoyment or personal satisfaction in making additional work for myself. I simply want to have the choice as to what compromises of my ideals I'll need to make to get a GNU/Linux distribution onto the hardware I have, and know where to focus my efforts in freeing up those components or knowing what to research more closely and try to avoid before making further hardware purchases.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 1:09 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] (2 responses)

Over the last few months I have seen increasing amounts of new laptops at my friend's households where you can't plug in an Ethernet cable.

Just this week, I ordered a USB to Ethernet adapter for a friend to enable her working in a wired LAN.

Are you sure that your assumptions about what you "may just need" are realistic for current laptop hardware?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 21:27 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

We're planning to replace my wife's "ancient" laptop (it came with Windows 8). It has no ethernet port, so I dunno about just "modern" stuff, a lot of older stuff needs an adapter as well ...

Cheers,
Wol

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 23, 2021 18:12 UTC (Sat) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link]

Yep. I have a Dell XPS 13 from I dunno, 2012? The first Ubuntu Developer version. It has no Ethernet port.

These days I almost think the adapters are better. If you want to you can get a 10 Gbps adapter. I doubt you'll find a laptop with a built-in 10G Ethernet.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 28, 2021 9:58 UTC (Thu) by davidgerard (guest, #100304) [Link] (1 responses)

> So if you decide you value freedom over convenience you can still have a happily working setup, it just may need an ethernet cable.

Laptops frequently don't come with Ethernet ports these days - just blob-dependent wifi.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 29, 2021 1:16 UTC (Fri) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

> Laptops frequently don't come with Ethernet ports these days - just blob-dependent wifi.

Or USB ports? Mine came with a USB-Ethernet dongle but they are that expensive to buy separately.