Installing Debian on modern hardware [LWN.net]

By Jake Edge
January 20, 2021

It is an unfortunate fact of life that non-free firmware blobs are required to use some hardware, such as network devices (WiFi in particular), audio peripherals, and video cards. Beyond that, those blobs may even be required in order to install a Linux distribution, so an installation over the network may need to get non-free firmware directly from the installation media. That, as might be guessed, is a bit of a problem for distributions that are not willing to officially ship said firmware because of its non-free status, as a recent discussion in the Debian community shows.

Surely Dan Pal did not expect the torrent of responses he received to his short note to the debian-devel mailing list about problems he encountered trying to install Debian. He wanted to install the distribution on a laptop that was running Windows 10, but could not use the normal network installation mechanism because the WiFi device required non-free firmware. He tracked down the DVD version of the distribution and installed that, but worried that Debian is shooting itself in the foot by not prominently offering more installation options: "The current policy of hiding other versions of Debian is limiting the adoption of your OS by people like me who are interested in moving from Windows 10."

The front page at debian.org currently has a prominent "Download" button that starts to retrieve a network install ("netinst") CD image when clicked. But that image will not be terribly useful for systems that need non-free firmware to make the network adapter work. Worse yet, it is "impossible to find" a working netinst image with non-free firmware, Sven Joachim said, though he was overstating things a bit. Alexis Murzeau suggested adding a link under the big download button that would lead users to alternate images containing non-free firmware. He also pointed out that there are two open bugs (one from 2010 and another from 2016) that are related, so the problem is hardly a new one.

While they are hard to find, there are unofficial images with non-free firmware for Debian, as Holger Levsen noted; he also pointed to his 2017 blog post that he uses to rediscover those images when he needs them. It is a rather strange situation; Emanuele Rocca put it this way:

So the current situation is that we make an active effort to produce two different types of installation media: one that works for all users, and one broken for most laptops. Some sort of FOSS version of an anti-feature. Then we publish the broken version on the front page, and hide very carefully the version that works.

This absurdly damages our users without improving the state of Free Software in any way, while Ubuntu puts the firmware back into the images and can rightly claim to be easier to install.

But Jeremy Stanley took exception to that characterization:

The one you say "works for all users" doesn't "work" for me because it contains proprietary closed-source software I don't want. This boils down to a debate over whether the Debian community values convenience over ideals. It can be argued that for users who value convenience more, Ubuntu already exists. Why compete with that and compromise Debian's ideals at the same time?

That is, of course, the crux of the matter. Debian has a set of ideals about the kinds of software it distributes, enshrined in the Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG); non-free licenses do not fit within those ideals. In addition, the Debian Social Contract (which contains the DFSG) specifically notes that "non-free works are not a part of Debian". But the problem at hand is that potential users may not even be able to install Debian (or use it once installed) if they cannot access the network; it is hard for some to see how that advances the cause of free software, which is also a part of the contract.

In response to Stanley, Russ Allbery pointed out that there is a middle ground. No one had suggested removing the official images that do not have the non-free firmware, but there are some interested in making it easier to find the images needed for much of today's hardware.

The point is to make things easier for our users. Right now, we're doing that for you but not for the users who don't care whether firmware is non-free. I think the idea is that we should consider making things easier for both groups of users. There's no reason to make things worse for you and others who want the fully free installer in the process.

The official installer does offer the option of installing non-free firmware from a USB drive, "but very few people use it", Andrew M.A. Cater said. Allbery described the process he goes through to try to use that mechanism; it is far from straightforward even for someone quite familiar with Debian:

I have always managed to get it to work, but usually it's an hour of cursing and Googling things and making different USB sticks in different formats with different file systems and retrying parts of the installation until I hit on the magic combination of factors to make it work.

One can only imagine that new users who encounter this wall are unlikely to continue to down the Debian path. Allbery said that an installer with non-free firmware would work much better for him, but he wasn't able to find the specific one he needed (for the "testing" version of the distribution). Andrey Rahmatullin said that the inability to find these images is caused by a "failing of the Debian websites"; there should be an easier path to find the alternate installation images. Russell Stuart said that he always runs into the same problem that Allbery reported and that, even though Stuart is a strong proponent of the separation of free and non-free in Debian, firmware is a different beast:

[...] these firmware blobs are peculiar. They don't run on the same CPU, we talk to them with strictly open API's and protocols. In that way, they aren't anything new. We already talk to and depend on megabytes of nonfree software to get our laptop's booted, but we tolerate it because it lives in ROM. We don't consider firmware in ROM to be part of Debian even though it must be running for our Debian machines to run.

After Paul Wise pointed out that there actually are unofficial images with non-free firmware for the testing distribution, Holger Wansing suggested some changes (and as a patch) for the web site to make it easier for users to find these images when needed. As Marc Haber said, though, the installation experience is likely the first impression a potential new user will get; "we should not be trying THIS hard to be a failure in this very important part of the relationship our product is building with the user". But pointing users at the unofficial images is different from Debian officially distributing this non-free firmware, as Steve McIntyre pointed out:

There's a major difference here - do we want Debian's *official* media to include non-free stuff? We've had this discussion a few times, including in person back at DC15 [DebConf 15] at least. Back then, the overwhelming response was *no*. We can change that, but it's not something to do lightly.

Haber feels strongly that being purists about firmware is only leading to fewer new users. Wise agreed in part: "the current situation wrt hardware and software freedom is pretty catastrophic". He suggested making things clearer for users and potential users, perhaps by way of an "installer launcher app". That app would analyze the needs of the existing hardware to help guide (and presumably educate) users in their installer choice.

While there were lots of ideas of how to make things better, this problem has existed for a long time in Debian. Marco d'Itri said that he had raised the issue back in 2004, but it likely goes much further back than that. Ansgar Burchardt said that in 2016 he had proposed creating a new section in the repository to hold the non-free firmware (separate from the rest of the non-free software), which might be a preliminary step. But consensus was not reached and that effort died on the vine. As with the open bugs, these accounts show that the distribution has been struggling with this issue for quite some time.

At this point, it is not at all clear what will happen. The discussion may just fade away, only to be picked up again down the road. The problem is real and making the situation better, at least, does not seem all that difficult, nor particularly harmful to Debian's overall goals. But that has been true all along and here we are. It would seem that there has simply not been enough "push" to make progress, but with any luck, this time around things will be different.

to post comments

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 1:04 UTC (Thu) by thumperward (guest, #34368) [Link] (3 responses)

When it was released I posted a comment which discussed what it took for me (a developer with ~20 years of linux experience) to get working on a relatively mainstream if somewhat aged (~9 years) Dell laptop. Unsurprisingly this resulted in a number of comments from LWN regulars confidently and condescendingly posting links to firmware ISOs they hadn't used, based on 1 second of Googling, along with another bunch implying either moral or technical failing on my behalf for either having dared to own a 2010-era laptop which didn't have free wifi firmware or for having not both written firmware for such and gone through the gauntlet required to submit it to Debian.

Debian already surreptitiously distributes all of this stuff, either in nonfree repos or in dubiously-blessed-and-yet-still-available ISOs. Making users go through a pseudo black market for it for the sake of allegedly appeasing the Free Software Foundation (which already disavowed Debian as unacceptably impure over two decades ago) or the kooks that the project hasn't yet flung out (who mercifully grow fewer by the year, but who obviously never stop posting in LWN comments sections) does not in any way make Debian a better free software project, while it does have the effect of making newcomers bounce off almost immediately.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 1:54 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

Nevermind that both the "fully free, official" and "unofficial, with bad non-free firmware" images are both generated by Debian, and are distributed via debian.org.

(And yes, most users don't have a choice of hardware; they are limited to what they already own..)

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 11:34 UTC (Thu) by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375) [Link] (1 responses)

My moral and technical failings in the last year include buying an AMD GPU and not being able to patch its driver shim for DKMS to build the modules for kernel 5.9 because kallsyms_lookup_name() was no longer EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL between 5.6 and 5.9 [1], and writing some more code to achieve its goal for specific graphic functions lost out to just using kernel 5.6.

1: https://lwn.net/Articles/813350/

K3n.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 18:54 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

... why are you using the driver shim and dkms at all? The amdgpu driver is in-tree!

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 1:46 UTC (Thu) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link] (4 responses)

I think a big improvement would be that installing nonfree software should include an explanation that the user is giving up some freedom and what that means, as in https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/install-fest-devil.en.html . It should also require some explicit action on the user's part, last I checked a few years ago, the installer already did that.

I think a separate repo for non-cpu firmware is a good idea, but I'd also limit it to firmware significantly hampers installing the OS itself. For example, if some firmware just enables 3d acceleration of a graphics card, keep it it the general nonfree repo.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 16:16 UTC (Thu) by sandsmark (guest, #62172) [Link] (3 responses)

> I think a separate repo for non-cpu firmware is a good idea, but I'd also limit it to firmware significantly hampers installing the OS itself. For example, if some firmware just enables 3d acceleration of a graphics card, keep it it the general nonfree repo.

Why is CPU firmware, of all things, okay? Or do you mean CPU firmware should not be distributed at all?

And limiting the types of firmware will just decrease the perceived quality of Debian, the user won't blame the hardware for a lack of 3D acceleration (and no users read popups or dialogs, in case you were thinking about showing an explanation before, during or after installation).

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 21:14 UTC (Thu) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link]

Sorry for the confusion, I meant nonfree firmware which does not run on the cpu could be in its own repo. Nonfree firmware that runs on the cpu should remain in normal nonfree repo like other software.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 21:47 UTC (Thu) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (1 responses)

The CPU presumably gets special treatment because it's already “tainted” by the time the OS gets to run on it. In addition to that, nowadays we usually know what a given microcode update is for (i.e. it's accompanied by a logo and domain name). Most manufacturers don't even have the decency to say that their blobs changed, never mind why.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 30, 2021 1:32 UTC (Sat) by immibis (subscriber, #105511) [Link]

Other way around. "CPU firmware" (i.e. drivers) is just software. Non-CPU firmware is something that the vendor would've just put in ROM, but they wanted to leave open the possibility of updates. And we seem to all have agreed that it's okay to have proprietary firmware in ROM - so surely "not ROM because updates" should be a very similar category?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 2:53 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (10 responses)

Is anyone working on any of these ideas?

We need to convince OEMs to stop requiring Intel signatures on Intel's open source Sound Open Firmware project and for Intel to provide a workaround when they do.

We need GPU vendors to stop requiring signatures on their GPUs and for them to provide workarounds for existing GPUs.

We need hardware vendors to release their firmware source code, at minimum in escrow form to the LVFS, to be released under a free license after the company no longer exists, or after the hardware is no longer sold, whichever is sooner.

We need lots of folks to learn firmware reverse engineering and start working on replacing all the non-free firmware.

Does anyone have any further ideas?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 10:37 UTC (Thu) by ale2018 (subscriber, #128727) [Link] (6 responses)

> We need hardware vendors to release their firmware source code, at minimum in escrow form to the LVFS, to be released under a free license after the company no longer exists, or after the hardware is no longer sold, whichever is sooner.

To push hardware vendors seems to be the only reasonable effect that Debian might hope to obtain by insisting on purity. In that case, however, they should put hardware guides more prominently on Debian web site. Perhaps I would have bought a different laptop, had I known which one is compatible with Debian. As a matter of fact, I use Ubuntu on the laptop.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 11:08 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (5 responses)

It is very unlikely WiFi vendors care about Debian, let alone Linux enough to liberate their firmware.

The problem for Debian is there is so much hardware out there with new models and variants every year that it isn't feasible to buy all of them and check which variants have which WiFi chips. We do have a set of pages about installing Debian on individual devices but those are of inconsistent quality, cover old hardware more than new hardware and there is no comparison between different devices.

https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 15:38 UTC (Thu) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

It is very unlikely that many of the companies even have the right to distribute said firmwares 'freely' as they will include code from parts they outsource 1 or 2 levels down. That said, there are currently only negative economic incentive to do this either (aka the people who do this find out it costs them more or they don't get the increase in sales to cover the costs.) Until that changes via some outside force to 'level/subsidize' the playing ground, this will only get worse with SoC's as you end up needing firmware to run the cpu inside the cpu which is running the CPU your computer runs.

I expect that in some ways, the purists on this will become the equivalent of the American Amish with a culture that becomes a tourist attraction.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 22:30 UTC (Thu) by joib (subscriber, #8541) [Link] (1 responses)

Maybe Debian needs something like popcon but for hardware?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 22:36 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

There is already the cross-distro Linux Hardware Database and hw-probe for that, but it still needs adding hardware info submission into Calamares and the Debian installer and then also figuring out how to use the database in order to inform user purchasing decisions.

https://wiki.debian.org/Hardware/Database
https://linux-hardware.org/
https://github.com/linuxhw/hw-probe
https://github.com/calamares/calamares/issues/1454
https://bugs.debian.org/964853

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 25, 2021 21:45 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (1 responses)

Nevermind that what chip your specific device gets might depend on which parts line it was on and what time of day can change that too. IIRC, XPS 13 Developer Editions had a chance of some crap chip or Intel. Needless to say, I bought my own Intel chipset for $20 to avoid problems with the crap chip.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 26, 2021 2:41 UTC (Tue) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

You were wise to buy Dell instead of Lenovo, who would have blocked you from swapping out the WiFi chip unless you hacked the boot firmware.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 12:26 UTC (Thu) by amacater (subscriber, #790) [Link] (1 responses)

Given that Lenovo now explicitly support Linux on their machines - ask them to lean on Intel and AMD and the firmware vendors? - but I don't hold out much hope.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 13:01 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

Lenovo are a part of the problem, for example Intel's open source Sound Open Firmware (SOF) project has published, openly licensed and fully buildable source code, but Lenovo and other OEMs require Intel-signed builds of SOF by default. Some laptop vendors do not require signatures for firmware running on Intel's sound hardware though. Also they don't have any plans to support coreboot.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 9:45 UTC (Fri) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> We need to convince OEMs to stop requiring Intel signatures on Intel's open source Sound Open Firmware project and for Intel to provide a workaround when they do.
> We need GPU vendors to stop requiring signatures on their GPUs and for them to provide workarounds for existing GPUs.

A more sensible request would be a "developer" switch like the one in Chromebooks or the one in UEFI that turns off secure boot.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 6:20 UTC (Thu) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (3 responses)

I have long since given up on trying to help people find a Debian image that will install successfully. I, personally have never succeeded in figuring out how to install drivers separately. I doubt there actually is a way; or if there is, that anybody can figure it out just from what is published. Why they are asked to try is an enduring mystery.

Instead, I tell them to install the Debian flavor of Mint, which publishes installers that, y'know, *install*. Once Debian-flavor Mint installation is finished, you have a Debian system that works.

Most people don't ask me, and install Ubuntu instead, which they always seem to think works, although it always works badly, for me. Driving people away to Ubuntu does neither them nor Debian any good.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 12:23 UTC (Thu) by amacater (subscriber, #790) [Link] (2 responses)

"Our priorities are our users and Free Software". There's a trade off between end user convenience and philosophy - ease of install and pragmatism.

The problem with firmware - and GPU drivers - is that they are "ever so nearly free" - Debian can put a wrapper round them to install them, can package them so that they fit with the rest of the free distribution, can (normally) distribute them [Broadcom, I'm looking at you where the Debian installer has to go and cut firmware from out of a blob - and that also feeds into the similar discussions around vendoring code here recently] but can't reverse engineer them / fix them when they go wrong. That - as much as the unavailability of source - is the reason why they are non-free and why we tell users they are not part of Debian proper. Here be dragons: support is, at best, best endeavours: if it breaks, you get to keep both pieces

Wifi drivers are the worst for this - because most end user laptops need them - but it's hard putting pressure on the likes of Realtek, Broadcom and Qualcomm to free the software. The expectation of users is that WiFi just works because it works on Windows or in other Linux distributions. They don't notice the download of third party drivers because its hidden. Other Linux distros don't care as much - Ubuntu / Mint, perhaps - or care far more and don't supply drivers - Trisquel. For video cards - as pointed out in the discussion - you may need non-free firmware to intiialise the card to install at all.

The official images contain only free software: the unofficial images bundle firmware - but not all firmware. It's still equally possible that we just end up pointing people at the unofficial image and getting as many queries and problems. Andrew Cater
[Interested party: I am a Debian developer, member of the Debian images team and able to edit the website as part of the web editors group.]

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 19:02 UTC (Thu) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (1 responses)

Everybody gets all of that. It's right there in the mission statement.

But principles are one thing, and choices are another. Choices are what have consequences. Choices with absolutely predictable consequences have to be evaluated according to those consequences.

When the absolutely predictable consequence is "#%^$#% Debian! I'm installing Ubuntu", that demonstrates that a bad choice has been made, and a better choice is needed. The bad choice was having concealed from them the installer, which has been built and posted, that they actually need to complete a successful install.

A better choice would be to put the installer they need on the Downloads page where they can find it. The best choice would be to have just the one installer, with the choice offered to the user, instead, during installation: "Here are the network interfaces found. This one depends on a non-Free firmware blob. Do you want to install it anyway, or proceed without?"

An installation that doesn't finish is an installation that has failed in every way.

Changing the installers so that they will actually succeed will be worth an announcement, so people will know that they can stop avoiding official Debian installers, and can now recommend Debian to their colleagues without embarrassment or apology.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 19:46 UTC (Thu) by joib (subscriber, #8541) [Link]

A combined installer image sounds like a sensible proposal. Could even have some "yes to all", "no to all", "explicit choice for each firmware" option.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 7:54 UTC (Thu) by madhatter (subscriber, #4665) [Link] (19 responses)

I do think some of the comments posted so far are slightly missing the point: the discussion is, au fond, about which of "user convenience" and "user freedom" is of higher value to Debian. That is a legitimate question to ask, and I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of the LWN readership on it: but presupposing that "user convenience" is the obvious winner is not the best way to approach the question.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 15:56 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (12 responses)

It's not presuposition, but basic logic: you cannot have software freedom without working hardware. So the choice is closed hardware+propierary software vs closed hardware+free software.

Hardware freedom is a highly desirable thing to have, of course, but maybe it should be a task for another entity, which we may call the Free Computing Foundation if you like.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 16:27 UTC (Thu) by madhatter (subscriber, #4665) [Link] (11 responses)

That seems a very black-and-white view, when things are in fact greyer. These binary peripheral firmware blobs don't make all peripherals work: it's only WiFi cards that seem to have developed that way. So if you decide you value freedom over convenience you can still have a happily working setup, it just may need an ethernet cable.

It's clear - not least from Jeremy Stanley's comment as quoted in the original article - that some people would make exactly that choice, and it's not clear that Debian shouldn't be supporting them.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 16:52 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

> it just may need an ethernet cable.

And an ethernet adapter to plug that cable into.

And an ethernet port for the other end of the cable too.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 30, 2021 1:34 UTC (Sat) by immibis (subscriber, #105511) [Link] (1 responses)

are you... suggesting that's a *problem* at all?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 30, 2021 2:03 UTC (Sat) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

If you don't have an ethernet adapter, a cable, and something to plug said cable into, then yes, that qualifies as a pretty big problem.

And why would you have an ethernet adapter lying around? After all, you haven't needed one for the last five years or so.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 19:43 UTC (Thu) by joib (subscriber, #8541) [Link] (1 responses)

Won't the people who value freedom over convenience be able to exercise their freedom to not use wifi, regardless of whether their install image contains wifi firmware or not?

What freedom is taken away from the user if the install image contains also non-free firmware, but the user chooses to never load them?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 5:10 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

Exactly! Who is respecting my freedom by hiding from me the installer I need to get the laptop that I have fully functional? Why does that not feel anything like respect, or freedom?

If I feel like I am being made a pawn in somebody's doomed power struggle with people unaware they (or I) exist, is it because that is precisely what is going on? To throw around the word "respect" so ironically becomes recognizably more akin to contempt.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 0:45 UTC (Fri) by fung1 (guest, #144307) [Link]

The quote was taken somewhat out of context, and if you read the ML thread I clarify my position in followup. Debian currently has two official flavors of install media: one where you can choose to supply missing firmware necessary to complete the install, and one which ships with a collection of so called "non-free" firmware and tools which will be automatically installed for you if it matches the detected hardware. The message to which that quote was replying suggested the latter installer "works for everyone," and I was countering that I still personally found value in Debian providing an installer which does not automatically install opaque binary firmware blobs.

I don't object to using an installer containing some software which isn't provided under a free/libre open source license, for me it's about consciously reviewing what bits of it I absolutely need and being able to choose to not install bits I don't require (perhaps for system components I have no interest in using). Hunting down and sneaker-netting firmware in on separate removable media isn't convenient no, and it's not as if I take any enjoyment or personal satisfaction in making additional work for myself. I simply want to have the choice as to what compromises of my ideals I'll need to make to get a GNU/Linux distribution onto the hardware I have, and know where to focus my efforts in freeing up those components or knowing what to research more closely and try to avoid before making further hardware purchases.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 1:09 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] (2 responses)

Over the last few months I have seen increasing amounts of new laptops at my friend's households where you can't plug in an Ethernet cable.

Just this week, I ordered a USB to Ethernet adapter for a friend to enable her working in a wired LAN.

Are you sure that your assumptions about what you "may just need" are realistic for current laptop hardware?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 21:27 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

We're planning to replace my wife's "ancient" laptop (it came with Windows 8). It has no ethernet port, so I dunno about just "modern" stuff, a lot of older stuff needs an adapter as well ...

Cheers,
Wol

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 23, 2021 18:12 UTC (Sat) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link]

Yep. I have a Dell XPS 13 from I dunno, 2012? The first Ubuntu Developer version. It has no Ethernet port.

These days I almost think the adapters are better. If you want to you can get a 10 Gbps adapter. I doubt you'll find a laptop with a built-in 10G Ethernet.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 28, 2021 9:58 UTC (Thu) by davidgerard (guest, #100304) [Link] (1 responses)

> So if you decide you value freedom over convenience you can still have a happily working setup, it just may need an ethernet cable.

Laptops frequently don't come with Ethernet ports these days - just blob-dependent wifi.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 29, 2021 1:16 UTC (Fri) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

> Laptops frequently don't come with Ethernet ports these days - just blob-dependent wifi.

Or USB ports? Mine came with a USB-Ethernet dongle but they are that expensive to buy separately.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 15:46 UTC (Fri) by ayers (guest, #53541) [Link] (3 responses)

I've been using Debian for decades, not just for myself but also install it mostly on servers for my customers. The wifi isn't that much of an issue on the server side but the same issues can arise with RAID controllers on servers that customers have already bought. In one case I actually went so far as to install Ubuntu Server and libvirt KVM to run Debian in a VM (that has since been remedied by replacing the hardware).

I feel strongly about working with free software. I do very much respect the fact that I can install Debian via the default installation ang be reasonably certain, that there is no non-free software on my system. I am aware that I'm missing CPU microcode and network drivers or whatever, that may make me miss out on some features or make my hardware slower, less efficient or, in the worst case, possibly even unreliable.

I can relate to the sentiment, that there has to be a significant convenience hurdle to entice users to complain to hardware manufactures for not supporting free software distributions. But I also believe there must be a better way than to put such a high burden on prospective users.

I had always imagined that these non-free components be stowed away in a separate part of the install media and that the user might have to go through some process of identifying the offending hardware component and be obliged to register it at some portal to nag the vendor and manufacturer but also be able to actually install the non-free component, albeit marking the system as tainted. Possibly by providing both a command line tool and a desktop app to repeat the nag once a year or so...

But yeah... that's not really something I would want to spend my time setting up and I'd definitely not be willing to go through the persuasion needed to actually get that into Debian, let alone deal with the push back that's bound to result from such a mechanism.
There needs to be a better way to solve the issue of non-free firmware, which burdens the vendors and manufactures instead of the users.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 17:14 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

> I am aware that I'm missing CPU microcode and network drivers or whatever, that may make me miss out on some features or make my hardware slower, less efficient or, in the worst case, possibly even unreliable.

That proprietary firmware (which you are already running, only it's the "okay" copy embedded into the device instead of the "evil" one that the host CPU is being asked to transfer) can have significant security implications. So the worst case is that you suffer a data breach, get sued or fined, losing a pile of money, your business, and in extreme cases, possibly your liberty.

> I can relate to the sentiment, that there has to be a significant convenience hurdle to entice users to complain to hardware manufactures for not supporting free software distributions. But I also believe there must be a better way than to put such a high burden on prospective users.

The thing is, most folks don't deploy servers (or whatever) for the heck of it; equipment gets deployed because it needs to accomplish specific tasks, and thus needs to be fit for purpose. Why struggle with Debian on your hardware when Ubuntu, CentOS, (or worse) Windows running a Linux VM under WSL2 just works out of the box?

(FWIW, the only proprietary userspace stuff on my servers are the RAID administration tools. But while the rest of it is all Free Software, Linux and everything else is running on top of/alongside highly proprietary system & peripheral firmware)

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 17:29 UTC (Fri) by ayers (guest, #53541) [Link]

> The thing is, most folks don't deploy servers (or whatever) for the heck of it; equipment gets deployed because it needs to accomplish specific tasks, and thus needs to be fit for purpose. Why struggle with Debian on your hardware when Ubuntu, CentOS, (or worse) Windows running a Linux VM under WSL2 just works out of the box?

Exactly... so most folks should go ahead and deploy Ubuntu or whatever. They have that option. I took that option as a temporary workaround. But please don't mess with my option of deploying a widely used distribution that actually respects my freedom by default. (and not hidden in some hardly tested install option).

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 23, 2021 8:32 UTC (Sat) by alex31 (guest, #67059) [Link]

| Why struggle with Debian on your hardware when Ubuntu, CentOS, (or
| worse) Windows running a Linux VM under WSL2 just works out of the
| box?

I consider Debian as a building block, as Gnu utilities or Linux kernel. For me, the fact that Debian is not usable for most end users is not a problem as long as it stays a valuable building block for the ones that develops user-friendly distributions.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 16:14 UTC (Fri) by ema (subscriber, #17750) [Link] (1 responses)

There's no trade-off between "convenience" and "freedom" here. In a trade-off between A and B, if A decreases B increases. We don't gain any more freedom by removing firmware from netinst images and thus breaking the installer, we just break it.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 24, 2021 22:09 UTC (Sun) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

It is actually worse than that. Freedom at the expense of convenience comes at the expense of freedom.

At the moment, by far the most reliable, efficient, and straightforward way to get a Debian box up and running with as little friction as possible, is to click the "new compute instance" button in GCP or AWS. Which technically does give you a "free" OS, but the entire virtualization stack below it is closed. Both of the companies involved produce scads of proprietary software as part and parcel of their respective business models, and your compute fees go to supporting those business models.

(Disclaimer: I work for Google, and this is obviously just my opinion.)

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 8:10 UTC (Thu) by joib (subscriber, #8541) [Link] (21 responses)

From a freedom perspective, I see no difference between a) firmware permanently burned into the device ROM during manufacturing b) updateable firmware stored in flash on the device c) firmware stored somewhere else and uploaded to the device by the driver upon initialization.

Taking the stance that it would be even better if we had the source for the firmware (which, sure, it would), and thus option (c) above is evil whereas (a) and (b) are fine, is just inconsistent.

And if one takes the stance that all of (a), (b), and (c) are evil, where do you then draw the line? Should we demand free Verilog (or whatever) sources for all the chips in the system? I mean, that would be nice, but also wildly unpragmatic for the time being.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 11:02 UTC (Thu) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link] (13 responses)

The FSF's view, I believe, is that (a) is acceptable because then the manufacturer and user are on an equal footing. Neither can change the firmware. The device is considered a fixed piece of hardware. But if the manufacturer is able to make changes to the firmware and publish new versions to upload to the device, users should have that same freedom.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 11:20 UTC (Thu) by joib (subscriber, #8541) [Link] (12 responses)

So what if a nasty bug is discovered in a type (a) device, and the manufacturer offers the users a slight discount for a new device, provided that the user RMA's the old buggy device. The vendor then desolders the RAM chip from the RMA's device, and replaces it with a RAM chip with a newer fixed firmware and then sells the fixed device to someone else. Has Freedom(TM) been preserved?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 12:23 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (10 responses)

0 What if the ROM is socketed and can be swapped by the user?
1 What if the ROM is actually an EPROM? (ie UV-erasable?)
2 What if the ROM is actually an EEPROM? (not erasable in-system)
3 What if the ROM is an EEPROM programmable in-system?
4 What if the "ROM" is a file on disk and sent over at initialization time?

Why is the line drawn at (a) or (1) but these other five not okay?

(I've personally experienced the 2->3 and 3->4 transitions that resulted in a device having it's "blessed" status being revoked)

Also, there's (5), where the host has to send over some opaque binary blobs that are not technically "firmware" but instead are data tables used by the ROM'd firmware or hardware state machine. Does that somehow "respect your freedom" less than if those tables were burned into non-updatable ROM instead?

*shakes head* Since the very beginning of the Free Software movement, "hardware" has nearly always [1] been non-Free. Free Software was only feasible because those systems had the technical capability of replacing some (not even most, and definitely not all) of the software that runs on those systems, while continuing to run necessary non-Free software. By insisting on peripherals that lack the technical capability of being modified, that pretty much guarantees that Free Software will *never* run on those peripherals.

[1] with very rare exceptions. The only modern systems that come to mind are Raptor's Talos POWER boxes. But even those probably have non-free microcode in the CPU that can (must?) be updated at runtime.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 17:29 UTC (Thu) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link] (1 responses)

> Why is the line drawn at (a) or (1) but these other five not okay?

Huh? There is no (a), and in the next sentence you say 2 is ok?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 18:02 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

(a) was from a post two levels up, that is "firmware is burned into non-replaceable ROM"

If the rationale is that "the user has the same rights/ability as the manufacturer to replace the firmware" then anything other than mask ROM on the ASIC is arguably unacceptable. If the ROM is replaceable, why would the technical means used to replace it affect the device's "freedom"? (ie physically swapping a mask ROM vs out-of-band programming an EPROM or EEPROM)

Similarly, if the device uses an EEPROM, why would the technical ability to update it in-band (from the host) affect the device's "freedom"?

Finally, how does the CPU used to copy firmware into the device's RAM affect the device's "freedom" in any manner? Either its firmware is proprietary, or not.

I've personally witnessed these latter two scenarios play out with respect to the Prism2/2.5/3 family of wifi controllers.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 17:59 UTC (Thu) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link] (7 responses)

> Since the very beginning of the Free Software movement, "hardware" has nearly always [1] been non-Free

No, I think you have that all wrong. When you say "hardware" you seem to be talking about the lowest level software. The free software movement was a reaction to changing the decades old standard of free to non-free, it didn't need a name or movement before then. Modern programming where you type a program with a keyboard, you can easily retrieve it from storage and modify, started around 1965 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360. Software and the hardware information needed to program them were almost always free as in freedom to their users until the early-mid 1980s. For RMS, who became a programmer in 1971, the first decade of his career, all the software he encountered was free, including at the lowest levels. Insisting on what was standard for decades does not "guarantee" it will never happen.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 18:37 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (6 responses)

> For RMS, who became a programmer in 1971, the first decade of his career, all the software he encountered was free, including at the lowest levels.

Technically speaking software wasn't copyrightable in the US until a few years after after RMS got his start, so all software was technically free back then. But that ship formally sailed over forty years ago. and we are stuck dealing with today's legal reality that all software is automatically covered by copyright.

> Software and the hardware information needed to program them were almost always free as in freedom to their users until the early-mid 1980s.

But the hardware was anything but free, in both the cost and libre senses. What good is "free software" when you have no access to a computer?

(Even the cheapest pre-assembled personal/home computers introduced in the late 1970s cost the equivalent of over $2000 today. More capable ones were _much_ more expensive. And of course by then, libre software

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 21:19 UTC (Thu) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link]

> so all software was technically free back then

Not at all. You basically need 2 things for software freedom: source code and a license. The license part was not an issue before copyrightability, but you could still distribute binaries without source code.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 21:25 UTC (Thu) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link] (1 responses)

> But the hardware was anything but free, in both the cost and libre senses.

In the sense that it only came with free software and explicitly supported it with thorough documentation, it was libre. We are talking about free software here, and that is the kind of libre needed out of hardware to support software freedom. If you are talking about the license of the designs or related things, it probably wasn't, but that isn't a matter of software freedom.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 23:35 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> In the sense that it only came with free software and explicitly supported it with thorough documentation, it was libre. We are talking about free software here, and that is the kind of libre needed out of hardware to support software freedom.

Back in the day, that sort of documentation (and support) was critically essential for folks to be able to use that hardware, as there was such a diversity of potential uses that it was infeasible for the manufacturer to do so. But today, there are pretty much only two barely-overlapping volume markets left; Windows and Android [1][2]. Once you have some binary drivers hacked together well enough for those to work, that's going to cover 99.8% of your volume shipments. Why spend the time and effort to produce [3] proper documentation when you won't see enough additional sales to see a return on that investment?

(BTW, The majority of my Free Software contributions involve reverse-engineering hardware to enable use with/by Free Software.)

[1] Android, not Linux.
[2] I leave out Apple because they are so vertically integrated that 3rd-party hardware is for all intents and purposes, nonexistent.
[3] And translate it into something other than Chinese.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 21:42 UTC (Thu) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link] (2 responses)

> What good is "free software" when you have no access to a computer?

This just reads like a troll. I'm happy for with good things happening for other people even if it doesn't happen to me.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 23:00 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

No, I'm perfectly serious here.

"Software freedom" only applies when you have hardware capable [1] of running said software.

How is it somehow more liberating to users to require them to throw out their hardware? Isn't it better to provide ways for them to make the most of what they already own?

Look, I strongly agree with copyleft principles, and use GPL (v3!) whenever I have a choice in the matter.

But.

Every peripheral in or attached to this system I'm using to write this (and everything else in my home) has some from of processor running non-free software in it, from the keyboard to the displays, and everything in between. Do I like this? Of course not. All other (semi-)viable options are similarly afflicted. This leaves me with two basic choices:(a) accept that there will be some level of non-free software running that won't be excise-able without building my own hardware, or (b), completely opt out of modern society in the name of ideological purity.

Personally, I chose (a). And, time permitting, I do what I can to modestly add to the Free Software corpus.

Why is it okay to recommend using a cellular modem (itself a giant pile of proprietary software, written by companies actively hostile towards Free Software) to install Debian, but not a wifi adapter whose manufacturer contributes to Free Software, solely because the embedded software it runs is stored on the host instead of an EEPROM? What difference does it make, ethically or morally, if some of those proprietary blobs are transported by the host processor?

Is proprietary software morally acceptable if it's "hidden" behind some sort of physical interface? (not unlike a brown paper bag covering a bottle of liquor) Why is it okay if that interface is an embedded module, but not okay if that interface is smartphone-shaped?

[1] Legally as well as technically. Frankly, the biggest ongoing threats to Free Software are, and IMO have always been, the former.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 9:42 UTC (Fri) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

Thank you for this useful reality check.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 12:36 UTC (Thu) by joib (subscriber, #8541) [Link]

> ... desolders the RAM chip

This should be replacing the ROM chip containing the firmware, that is.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 15:29 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

(b) blocks that reverse engineering on the vendor releasing in some form code that implements the update protocol

(a) potentially blocks that reverse engineering altogether, depending on what tech is used for the storage

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 8:14 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (4 responses)

This is exactly what I am puzzled about. Back when the FSF started, there were computers like the BBC Micro that booted directly into a BASIC prompt that was hardcoded into the ROM. Imagine two versions of that computer: (a) the version that existed, with BASIC burned into the ROM, and (b) a version that instead loaded the BASIC interpreter from a binary blob on a floppy disk, that could in theory be modified. According to the FSF (and Debian), (a) is better. Why?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 23, 2021 15:41 UTC (Sat) by MatejLach (guest, #84942) [Link] (3 responses)

Because presumably you looked at what the device is doing at some level and purchased it because you are happy with its current "fixed" function if you will. But the moment the OEM can upgrade the firmware, the hardware can become many things that you don't want it to be, see PS3 "Other OS" functionality removal for a good example.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 23, 2021 18:11 UTC (Sat) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

There is a big difference between "Sony forced you into choosing between removing OtherOS support or playing newer games/movies" and providing the end-user with the technical means to update/replace the system software/firmware.

Sure, you can't have the former without the latter, but without the latter Free Software won't be possible either.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 23, 2021 18:48 UTC (Sat) by MatejLach (guest, #84942) [Link]

The FSF position, as far as I know, is that upgradeable firmware is fine as long as it is not exclusively the OEM who can do it. So if both the OEM and the user can upgrade the firmware then that's fine as long as the OEM upgrades are not of the silent over the air variety.

When the choice is between fixed firmware or OEM-only upgradeable firmware, then the FSF's position becomes that fixed is better.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 23, 2021 19:13 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

You missed where people had a physical problem with the PS3, sent it in for repair, and it came back totally useless because Sony upgraded the firmware at the same time.

Cheers,
Wol

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 30, 2021 1:35 UTC (Sat) by immibis (subscriber, #105511) [Link]

The main issue I see there is the distribution terms for the firmware.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 9:09 UTC (Thu) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link] (2 responses)

Well, as a Debian user I'm not an idealist, I'm a pragmatist, so I have non-free firmware packages installed and I'm mostly in favor of including them in the install images. I understand the concerns but I believe this fight cannot be won. But if Debian is not ready to accept this new reality, I like the idea of a hardware checker which serves also as a guide in selecting an appropriate installl image. But the wording in the guide must be chosen carefully - to not insult the user, and not make Debian look like a fringe fanatic cult (we already have the FSF for that). Thankfully I know that Debian has people who are very sensible so I'm not overly worried about this :)

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 23, 2021 15:50 UTC (Sat) by MatejLach (guest, #84942) [Link] (1 responses)

> But the wording in the guide must be chosen carefully - to not insult the user, and not make Debian look like a fringe fanatic cult (we already have the FSF for that).

In politics it is generally known that if you want some position represented, that position will get watered down many times over by various opposing groups, lobbyists etc. to the point where you have to start with a somewhat 'radical' version of your true position so that by the time the watering down is done it still at least somewhat represents your *true* position, which was in fact much more moderate.

If you start negotiations with the moderate position, you'd get something that does not represent it at all after the watering down process.

Voices like the FSF/RMS are much needed for exactly this reason.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 29, 2021 5:16 UTC (Fri) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> Voices like the FSF/RMS are much needed for exactly this reason.

Voices, sure. "Radical" control over popular and important software projects on the other hand...

Slow news day

Posted Jan 21, 2021 10:34 UTC (Thu) by magfr (subscriber, #16052) [Link] (1 responses)

Most papers print filler news like "Man bites dog" in slow news days but LWN seems different.
On a slow news day debian-devel never fails to provide an infected debate that is worth reporting about.

Slow news day

Posted Jan 22, 2021 19:12 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

... the 20th January 2021 was a slow news day?

This is the first evidence I've had that there are actual aliens (as in, people living on other planets) or possibly people living in parallel universes contributing to LWN :P

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 10:42 UTC (Thu) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (8 responses)

Most people do not realize it, but USB network adapters are cheap and have progressed far beyond the crappy state of wifi adapters. Much easier solution than trying either an offline or wifi installation (when the wifi part is crap).

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 11:26 UTC (Thu) by billypilgrim (subscriber, #143835) [Link]

Or similarly you could tether your phone over USB for the installation, presumably?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 12:32 UTC (Thu) by amacater (subscriber, #790) [Link] (5 responses)

Absolutely - and at least one commentator in debian-devel suggested these and even pointed to a source - but that then expects some classes of users to understand how to sort out Ethernet and cabling and interface names. I think I've written essentially the same post in debian-user about four times in four weeks to explain how to install either wifi drivers or non-free graphics firmware for new users.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 26, 2021 16:58 UTC (Tue) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (4 responses)

> but that then expects some classes of users to understand how to sort out Ethernet and cabling and interface names.

Why is that more complicated than for wifi?

Should be simpler, authentication rarely ever required...

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 27, 2021 12:15 UTC (Wed) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (3 responses)

WiFi tends to be something that everyone has working nowadays. In contrast, for wired Ethernet, I have to find a cable route from my home router to my work desk, run the cable, connect it to the router and the PC (noting that I may need to buy a switch, too, if I don't have enough wired ports, and then find power for that), and then put the cable route back into a nice state for my family to cope with (no trip hazards for the children, no messy holes to annoy the adults).

It's a considerable amount of complication compared to using the WiFi that already works for everything else - compare that to "type in the password and go", as is all I need on Windows 10 or MacOS 11.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 29, 2021 5:13 UTC (Fri) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (2 responses)

My question was about "interface names", sorry I should have been clearer.

On your last message: I understand wifi is more convenient that wired, but I assume you can easily download and install the wifi firmware after the installation has been performed over a _temporary_ wired connection. I mean if that's not against your religion, which is the case of the person who initiated this whole discussion.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 29, 2021 9:23 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

Sure, but even setting up a temporary wired connection would be a pain in the neck at my in-law's house. I'd be operating the computer in a cold garage (because that's where the router with wired ports is) rather than being in a warm office with WiFi. Or, if I want to be in the warm office, I need to get out the SDS+ drill, cut holes in the walls, and route cables.

In other words, you're talking a lot of hassle for a potential user to use wired connectivity.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 29, 2021 10:54 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Even temporary connections might not be feasible. My GF's house has a WiFi mesh system, with the main router in a hard-to-access location in the basement.

USB, yes!

Posted Jan 21, 2021 20:53 UTC (Thu) by Herve5 (guest, #115399) [Link]

Indeed I installed Debian testing, non-free, with a very easily found official image, via an USB disk on my new Lenovo P53 a couple of months ago already.
I had no special issue, not even with the non-free Nvidia drivers that I added later on (with just the GUI Synaptic app), for I had bought that laptop specifically to get a separate Nvidia GPU to get Darktable faster.

Not wanting to look snappy, but I only feel sorry for the poor souls that never met USB yet...

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 16:24 UTC (Thu) by ededu (guest, #64107) [Link] (2 responses)

I tried the image from https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd... from today and three days ago. Both of them yield error during installation: "No kernel module found. [...] mismatch between the kernel" used by installer and archive.

It seems that the image with firmware starts kernel 5.9, whereas the modules are for 5.10 (the current kernel version)...

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 16:58 UTC (Thu) by amacater (subscriber, #790) [Link]

Try here - https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd... as the base location for stable images and
then specifically https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd... and select for your architecture - usually amd64.

You hit daily unstable firmware images which aren't always guaranteed to work - and yes, there has been a recent change to 5.10 kernel.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 21, 2021 18:01 UTC (Thu) by liori (guest, #117124) [Link]

This is a Sid installation image, which AFAIR is not really tested. And it doesn't matter whether the problems are with non-free firmware or anything else. The recommended procedure is to install Debian Stable and, if you really want to go to Sid, upgrade an already existing installation.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 18:49 UTC (Fri) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] (3 responses)

Out of curiosity, do people have modern laptops that have optical media drives? If the normal thing now is to write the image you download to flash via either USB or SD, it might make sense to use the fact that the medium supports random access to provide a way to set up your boot image with multiple files you download. If you're going to install non-free packages after you boot, there's no reason not to download them before you boot, and it would be nice not to have to download any non-free software beyond what you've decided you want.

For that matter, if I read the installation manual strictly, I can't actually install Debian on any modern computers I personally have, since they only boot from USB and are presently running Gentoo (or, in the case of my work computer, macOS).

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 22, 2021 19:00 UTC (Fri) by amacater (subscriber, #790) [Link] (2 responses)

Debian CD / DVD size images can be written direct to USB stick and will boot from that. A second USB stick with firmware on can be used to add firmware - or you can write the unofficial image which has the non-free firmware files included onto a USB stick (for i386 and amd64).(and there are also larger 16G / Blu-Ray size images

For other architectures, the installer may be written to SD card especially for arm variants.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 23, 2021 17:55 UTC (Sat) by floppus (guest, #137245) [Link] (1 responses)

A second USB stick is already a huge nuisance. One possibility would be for the installer image to include a large empty VFAT partition, so that after writing the image to your USB stick or SD card, you could simply mount that partition and copy the necessary files onto it.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 23, 2021 18:10 UTC (Sat) by amacater (subscriber, #790) [Link]

This topic has been discussed mightily - not least because there are always discussions as to the best way to write a Debian image to a USB stick.

Use the offiicial free image with no firmware - you may need to add the firmware part way through the installation. [But for a container/VM - you may not need any firmware since it will be handled by the underlying OS]

Write the non-free unoffiical image to a USB stick and it should "just work" finding the appropriate files and installing them.
Hence the ongoing discussion in debian-devel@lists.debian.org

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 29, 2021 9:48 UTC (Fri) by timo_s (guest, #112870) [Link] (2 responses)

I think this discussion falls short esp. with regards to the kernel or drivers. So far, non-free firmware wasn't a major issue for me whenever I wanted to install and run Debian on a machine (well, maybe because most of my Debian systems are wired). But what occasionally has caused issues for me was the, at times, outdated kernel.

Please don't get me wrong. I like the stability of Debian and I'm not asking for newer kernels to be shipped with Debian per se. I just wish Debian had an easier way of installing a newer kernel on systems that require newer drivers in a fashion that also provides timely security updates. Installing newer kernels from testing or backports doesn't guarantee you will receive security fixes quickly. In Ubuntu or openSUSE Leap, for instance, there are repositories that offer regular mainline kernel builds. So, if you need a newer kernel, you can opt in to use these and, more or less, follow the upstream update schedule. The packages from those repositories receive less testing, obviously, but they usually work fine.

I had two systems a few years back, which required newer kernels to run properly. Because I wanted security updates in a timely fashion, I ended up compiling the latest longterm kernels from kernel.org myself. It worked fine, especially after I automated the process of checking for a new release on kernel.org, downloading the sources, compiling and packaging it. But it's still an effort that could easily be done by some build bot as well. And it would make it whole lot easier for a wider audience to install Debian on modern hardware. I wish Debian had such a mainline kernel repository, even if it came with a disclaimer that those kernels don't receive much testing.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Jan 30, 2021 14:16 UTC (Sat) by bjartur (guest, #67801) [Link] (1 responses)

Sounds like you’ve already done a third of the necessary work. Can you publish your Linux kernel packages?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Feb 4, 2021 20:24 UTC (Thu) by timo_s (guest, #112870) [Link]

Not really. I stopped building my own kernel packages for those two machines in question after Debian Stretch was released – meaning at that point Debian's kernel supported my hardware well enough so that I didn't need those custom packages anymore. In addition, the configuration was somewhat tailored to the specific hardware in order to keep the build time down.

What would probably be more useful than publish those outdated packages, are the scripts that I used to check for new releases and build/package them. But then again, if I were to publish them, I'd like to clean them up a bit first. There are a couple of things that I'd probably do differently nowadays. Just a brief example: Back then my scripts were still working with the release tarballs. Today, I'd probably just use git instead of downloading and extracting the whole source tree again for every release.

Binary firmware loaded into from ROM or flash is ok

Posted Jan 31, 2021 20:34 UTC (Sun) by simlo (guest, #10866) [Link]

But if it has to be loaded through the OS, it is bad?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Feb 25, 2021 8:52 UTC (Thu) by mcortese (guest, #52099) [Link] (2 responses)

I hardly understand most of the comments here, arguing whether Debian should or should not ship proprietary firmware. Debian has already taken such decision: it does package proprietary firmware, though in a separate section of the repository, and it does ship it with the installer, though under a scaring "unofficial" label.

Indeed, the topic is whether Debian should just make all this easily discoverable for the public, or keep it half-hidden in a dark corner of its website.

IMHO users who land on the download page should be presented with the two options with equal emphasis: official, 100% free installer, and unofficial, firmware-encumbered installer. Let the users decide if they feel purist or pragmatist.

I strongly believe in freedom of choice, once the users have received complete and unbiased information to make such choice.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Feb 25, 2021 11:13 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> IMHO users who land on the download page should be presented with the two options with equal emphasis: official, 100% free installer, and unofficial, firmware-encumbered installer. Let the users decide if they feel purist or pragmatist.

Wouldn't that make both of those options "official" ?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Posted Feb 27, 2021 21:28 UTC (Sat) by mcortese (guest, #52099) [Link]

They already are. Labeling something "unofficial" doesn't cancel the fact that Debian made it, intended to make it, and is set to make it in the future.