Toward a "modern" Emacs [LWN.net]

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 1:20 UTC (Sun) by loox (guest, #142138) [Link] (9 responses)

Forget other editors, it’s not a matter of competition. Instead, Emacs does not appeal to the “modern” user because of some glaring lacks. I use BBEdit on Mac and would be willing to switch to emacs. I do not care about Visual Code Studio or TextMate, I’m happy with BBEdit and I’d be glad to be happier with emacs. Here follow the main facts that keep me from investing time on emacs:

1) I’m European. We live with accents and other exotic characters. More, being 2020, I use emoticons. Emacs _as is_ doesn’t work with Unicode. Please, don’t tell me how easy it is to fix it. Just fix it for me, thanks. Any other, er, modern editor is Unicode-enabled, period.
2) I’m in bed at the moment, writing with my iPad. Tomorrow morning I’ll wake up, I’ll wake my Mac up, and I’ll instantly work with whatever document I was working now on the iPad. This means:
2a) I want emacs on my iPad. I sorely miss BBEdit in my iPad. A reason to switch to emacs would be the ability to u se it from my iPad. I realize that having emacs on a iPhone borders with absurd; ok. Having it on the iPad doesn’t.
2b) Synchronization. Please make Emacs iCloud-ready, Dropbox-ready, Pcloud-ready, Box-ready, whatever-ready if you don’t want to create emacs’ own sync service.
I fully understand the conflicts between GPL and the App Store. Sorry, I’m not a lawyer; I’m a user. Want emacs to appeal more to users? Make it work for users, then. Write GPL4 if needed, talk with Apple and Google, kiss a frog. This crusade against app stores is not in the interest of users. If an app is universally available to whoever wants to download it, freedom of redistributing it is actually pointless. GPL should contemplate an exception in this case.
3) Import-Export. Make it easy to import and export common formats. I know you’re programmers; I’m more of an editor, Please make easy, really easy, to output a PDF, writing in Markdown, preview an HTML document.

The chatting about dark mode or video tutorials is moot. It would be more useful, in fact, a graphical app with a micro-emacs inside, that people can try to discover the capabilities of emacs while getting work done in the while.

Thanks for the attention.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 12:24 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (6 responses)

Having it on the iPad doesn’t.

Of course it's absurd. Apple made it impossible to make GPLed programs for iPad and don't think FSF would be willing to compromise.

Please make Emacs iCloud-ready, Dropbox-ready, Pcloud-ready, Box-ready, whatever-ready if you don’t want to create emacs’ own sync service.

FSF would never do that and you know why.

I fully understand the conflicts between GPL and the App Store. Sorry, I’m not a lawyer; I’m a user.

If you say that then you don't understand the conflict.

Write GPL4 if needed, talk with Apple and Google, kiss a frog.

Lol. And what would be the end result? More users? But FSF's end goal is not to make users happy!

Users are just a means to get more developers and developers are needed to make free software. If the price of getting more users is making software not free... then the whole point of attracting them is lost.

It would be more useful, in fact, a graphical app with a micro-emacs inside, that people can try to discover the capabilities of emacs while getting work done in the while.

How would that help to produce more free software? That the main goal here, remember?

P.S. Please don't tell me that it's absurd to put the needs/wants of the users lower then the needs/wants of some piece of software (software is not alive, it doesn't have needs, after all). I know that and kind of agree with that. But situation is different from FSF's POV: that's the organization which is specifically made to promote free software and not to make popular software which makes users happy.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 21:27 UTC (Sun) by loox (guest, #142138) [Link] (5 responses)

>Users are just a means to get more developers and developers are needed to make free software. If the price of getting more users is making software not free... then the whole point of attracting them is lost.

Excluding one and half billion machines from running GPLed software, in order to promote free software, is not smart. Are you telling me that Firefox isn't free software? What about vim? VLC? I can run these apps, as well as plenty of other free software, on iPad. Find common ground with Apple; create it if needed; solve the issue. The current standoff is not promoting free software; it is making emacs increasingly irrelevant. Excellent work, FSF. My compliments.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 22:46 UTC (Sun) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Find common ground with Apple; create it if needed; solve the issue.

Wow, next you'll tell us you have a plan for peace in the Middle East.

(I'm reminded of the saying "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.")

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 22:55 UTC (Sun) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link]

I have seen posts about people getting Emacs running in iOS so it's not a technical problem with the code. I should point out that the GNU project doesn't provide pre-built binaries for ANY platform. It's up to someone else to build the software and distribute it. So, if that's not being done for iPad it's not really the GNU project's problem: that's not what they do. The problem is that no one else has done it.

So why has no one else done it? I don't know. Maybe you do?

I have heard three different things: one is that Apple doesn't allow interpreters in programs that run on the iPad. If that's true, the entire basis of Emacs (which is a Lisp enterpreter) is not allowed. How do you suggest that this be worked around? Other people say this is not true, or it was true but is not true anymore, and that other examples of interpreters exist. So maybe that's not the problem.

I've also heard that Apple won't allow an application to download other software. If that's true, it means that you can't use Emacs' package facility to install extra elisp packages. If all you care about is vanilla Emacs I guess that's fine but most people use at least one add-on package. Perhaps whomever created Emacs for the iPad could add in a bunch of the most popular external elisp packages--but the odds that it will include everything you might want are slim. But still, someone could publish Emacs if this were the only issue.

I've also heard that Apple won't allow any program licensed under the GPLv3 to appear in the app store. If this is true, then this certainly would be something that could not be solved by a user who wanted to publish an iPad version of Emacs. If this is the problem, how do you suppose this should be worked around?

When you say "work it out", is it your belief that Apple will agree to some compromise where both parties give some ground to come to a resolution? If that's how you think it would work I recommend you read about the current situation between Epic Games and Apple.

What you're really saying is, the GNU project should give in completely to Apple and do whatever they want, in order to increase their user base to include a group of people who either don't know or don't care about the fundamental reason the FSF and the GNU project exists, or anyway don't care enough to avoid buying hardware that is completely anathema to that reason.

That MIGHT make sense if the goal of the GNU project was to get as many users as possible. Although, the aforementioned Epic Games shows that even if that is your goal you might not be able to come to terms with Apple.

However, the GNU project isn't about increasing market share, it's about increasing software freedom. Compromising their principles to gain a group of users who are happy buying hardware that will only work with pre-compiled software that is selected for them by a single company who exercises absolute control over anything they could run on that hardware is... not an attractive deal for them, to say the least.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 28, 2020 8:29 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Are you telling me that Firefox isn't free software? What about vim? VLC?

As distributed on iPad/iPhone? All of these are not free. FSF even includes nice diagram to underscore it

I can run these apps, as well as plenty of other free software, on iPad.

No. You can't. All that software, as per FSF's definition is non-Free. And FSF argues that free software is better than open source. If you can run certain free software program then that means that their authors have given up on the free software and produced proprietary version for you to consume.

The current standoff is not promoting free software; it is making emacs increasingly irrelevant.

That's more-or-less what FSF heard about… well, few times per year for it's 35 years of existence. Their chances haven't changed. I don't think your rant would impress them all that much.

Excellent work, FSF. My compliments.

I know have meant that to be sarcastic... but I actually applaud them. At one time I was sure “open source” won and “free software” lost… but today… I'm not so sure anymore.

Think Clang vs GCC. Currently Clang is ahead… but just barely — and that's when it's about 10x (if not 100x) more popular among developers of derived products. Why? Because only Google pushes Clang itself. Everyone else are doing their own proprietary forks… and development effort spent on these, sooner or later, becomes a loss.

I'm not 100% sure which side would win (is it better to attract lots of users and developer even if 90% of development would go to waste… or is it better to have fewer developers — but the ones who care?), but I can certainly see where FSF comes from.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Oct 8, 2020 19:33 UTC (Thu) by markjanes (guest, #58426) [Link] (1 responses)

> Are you telling me that Firefox isn't free software? What about vim? VLC? I can run these apps, as well as plenty of other free software, on iPad.

I was surprised to find out that Firefox is prevented from running add-ons when running on iOS. For example, you cannot install adblock or extensions to ensure your browsing privacy.

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-ons-firefox-ios

Firefox as implemented on iOS is not free, because I am not free to run it in the manner that I choose.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Oct 9, 2020 13:51 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

Well, Firefox (or any browser really) on iOS is just a reskinned Safari. So you get syncing at least. But without the actual engine, how many add-ons actually work? But doing a vetted list of add-ons makes sense to me there. They seem to be doing something similar on Android too. For example, uBlock Origin works on Android, but Intention has not yet been allowed (I presume they do some performance metrics to avoid churning needless battery?). I also assume that they're using metrics to figure out which ones to focus on first.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 13:45 UTC (Sun) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link] (1 responses)

>1) I’m European. We live with accents and other exotic characters. More, being 2020, I use emoticons. Emacs _as is_ doesn’t work with Unicode. Please, don’t tell me how easy it is to fix it. Just fix it for me, thanks. Any other, er, modern editor is Unicode-enabled, period.

What problem do you have with accents in Emacs? I have not had any problems with them in Emacs for a long time. No configuration needed, either.

Emacs also supports emojis, I just tried and got a grinning face *in color* on screen in Emacs. Granted, I had to choose a font that supports emojis, and I had to enter it using "C-x 8 RET grinning face RET". How do you do that in your "modern, Unicode-enabled" editor? Is your keyboard equipped with a key that has a yellow grinning face printed on it?

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 21:03 UTC (Sun) by loox (guest, #142138) [Link]

>What problem do you have with accents in Emacs? I have not had any problems with them in Emacs for a long time. No configuration needed, either.

You're right; I stand corrected on this. Thanks!

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 27, 2020 6:11 UTC (Sun) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link] (1 responses)

VSCode is not superior to Emacs as a *text* editor. VSCode as an editor (with the default settings) is essentially Windows Notepad embedded in an IDE. Basic usage depends heavily on reaching for the arrow keys and the mouse or trackpad. Of course, VSCode supports more complex editing commands, but they all have esoteric key bindings you will have to learn, and they all have functional equivalents in Emacs.

Now, as an IDE for, say, working on a Java project VSCode is far superior to Emacs. Install the Java Extension Pack with a few clicks and you have Java syntax highlighting and checking, completion and automatic imports. Not only that, you get support for building the project within VSCode, and an integrated debugger out of the box. For these reasons, I use VSCode instead of Emacs when working with Java, *but* with the Vim emulator extension to be able to use a real text editor.

By the way, I find it funny that, when talking about CUA (Common User Access), the examples given are the Ctrl-X, Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V key bindings. These key bindings are not in the CUA document, they were introduced by the Apple Macintosh as Command-{X,C,V}, and later ported to Windows as Ctrl-{X,C,V}. In CUA the Cut command is Shift+Del, Copy is Ctrl+Ins and Paste is Shift+Ins.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 27, 2020 6:16 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

I'd been VSCode as my text editor for Markdown documents. It supports all I need out of the box: navigation with bookmarks, columnar selection, search&replace and a clipboard ring. All of them can be learned through visual menus.

I honestly don't know what you want more from a pure text editor.

And yes, there's an IDE on top of VSCode if you need it (though I prefer IntelliJ products).

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 27, 2020 10:13 UTC (Sun) by pgdx (guest, #119243) [Link] (10 responses)

> Atom exists. VSCode exists. Both are superior editors to Emacs. --- Cyberax

Atom is good, vscode is good.

You cannot linearly order editors (that much should be clear by now). I can come up with many tasks that I can do much faster, easier, and more comfortably in Emacs than you can do in either of your editors.

Here's a thing I did the other day that was quite easy in Emacs: open a CSV file, sort by second column, make into a latex table and generate a nicely typeset pdf. Bonus points if you can inspect that very pdf in your editor. But that's just Emacs showing off, I guess...

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 27, 2020 12:35 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (9 responses)

Here's a thing I did the other day that was quite easy in Emacs: open a CSV file, sort by second column, make into a latex table and generate a nicely typeset pdf. Bonus points if you can inspect that very pdf in your editor.

Wow. That's pretty cool. Maybe you can write an article which would explain how I, as complete novice who have never opened the manual and just wants to do that… can repeat that daring feat.

And if the answer is no, you can't, you need all the 600 pages of manual first… then that is where you have lost 90% of users. Now you are fighting for the remaining 10%… with VIM.

But that's just Emacs showing off, I guess…

Not Emacs, but you, I suspect. Yes, Emacs can do that and more… but only for someone who knows how to program. Which is not the majority of users our there. And no, I'm not talking about the need to write actual lisp code. That can be avoided, I suspect. But the need to understand how programs work in principle… these are unavoidable. And majority of text editor users… have no idea about that.

So before Emacs would decide what to do… it's developers have to decide if they want to try to pull more of that 10% users or they are audacious enough to fight for the remaining 90%. Strategy would depend on that…

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 27, 2020 14:18 UTC (Sun) by pgdx (guest, #119243) [Link] (8 responses)

It's three steps, so it's not like you need an engineering degree to
achieve it. Also, you don't need to read 600 manual pages if you are
willing to just use a search engine.

Open csv file in csv-mode, run C-c C-s (for alphabetic sort) or C-c C-n
(for numeric sort). If you haven't selected a region of the file
(typically the entire file or the entire file minus the header), Emacs
will select the entire file and ask you it you indeed want to sort the
entire file (including the first row). Then Emacs asks you which
column, and it defaults to the column your cursor is in (select 2).

Now, enter org-mode, select the table and run C-c |. (Sounds weird, but
pipe is column separator in org-mode, so it's quite natural if you're
familiar with org-mode.) If you want to make the first row the header
row, you simply press C-c -, which inserts a separator line under your
cursor.

Finally, run C-c C-e l p (again, possibly weird, but C-c C-e is
org-export, and then l p means LaTeX and PDF).

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 28, 2020 9:24 UTC (Mon) by beagnach (guest, #32987) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes, it's simple, three steps, but the point is that a new user is never going to figure this out unaided.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 28, 2020 10:30 UTC (Mon) by pgdx (guest, #119243) [Link]

Yes, it's simple, three steps, but the point is that a new user is never going to figure this out unaided.

No, that's not the point. It's certainly a point, but it's not my point. My point was that the statement

Atom exists. VSCode exists. Both are superior editors to Emacs

isn't correct, at least not for me. I just tried to say that there are things I'd rather do in Emacs than attempt to achieve in either of the other two.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 28, 2020 23:26 UTC (Mon) by gus3 (guest, #61103) [Link] (5 responses)

> Open csv file in csv-mode

How to do that?

> Now, enter org-mode

Again, how to do that?

You're trying to explain how to do all this without reading 600 manual pages, right? If you're going to explain how to do something, make sure your entire audience (not just your expected audience) can get a clue, a feel for the task.

I'm writing this solely as someone with a glancing familiarity with Emacs.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 29, 2020 7:10 UTC (Tue) by pgdx (guest, #119243) [Link]

>> Open csv file in csv-mode
> How to do that?

M-x csv-mode (it defaults to that if you open a CSV file, though, so probably unnecessary).

>> Now, enter org-mode
> Again, how to do that?

M-x org-mode.

If you're not familiar with M-x, it is (usually) Alt-x and then you type in your command, e.g. help, apropos, whitespace-cleanup, org-mode, markdown-mode, csv-sort-fields, sort-lines, magit-blame, etc.... The set of available commands depends on your "current mode" (e.g. java, csv, org, markdown, text, mail, ...).

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 29, 2020 7:41 UTC (Tue) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link] (3 responses)

This is getting ridiculous. The task at hand obviously is not easily solvable by a "complete novice" of any tool, unless the tool is specifically coded for the task. It is definitely not solvable by the praised Emacs competitors like Atom and VS Code, without coding an extension in Typescript or some such. In Emacs the needed pieces are readily available, and if you don't feel like reading the manual you may be able to find someone who can whip up a semi-friendly front end that makes use of the existing Emacs csv-mode and org-mode packages.

You don't need to read 600 pages of manual to start using Emacs. You can start using it just like Windows Notepad (or a Notepad-like editor like VS Code): open a file by choosing Open File... in the File menu. Move around in the text using the arrow keys (or Ctrl-arrow for moving by word), the Page Up and Page Down keys, Home, End, Ctrl-Home, Ctrl-End. Edit the text using the Backspace and Delete keys; again, you can combine these keys with Ctrl to delete by word. Click on and select text using the mouse, if that's the way you want to work.

Unfortunately, for historical reasons, a few common Ctrl key combinations are different, so you will have to learn the Emacs alternatives for cut, copy, paste and undo (which, by the way, are also available for selection in the Edit menu). Oh well, I guess that's too much for the typical attention span of people today...

One more thing: the Real CUA key combinations for cut (Shift-Del), copy (Ctrl-Ins) and paste (Shift-Ins) are also available. Apple forced us to learn new key combinations for those functions.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 29, 2020 9:00 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> You can start using it just like Windows Notepad (or a Notepad-like editor like VS Code): open a file by choosing Open File... in the File menu.
I've actually tried this route back in 2006. And quickly discarded it. Back at that time I was already used to a "standard" layout: the project tree in the left and the tabbed editor on the right.

When you open a file in Emacs you get a full screen of it. There are no tabs and navigation between open files (who said "buffers"?) is NOT trivial. And it's a completely different model from everything else.

So basically you HAVE to start with reading the manual and un-learning all the muscle memory. CUA mode doesn't particularly help. As far as I remember, even text selection worked differently (not the usual shift+movement keys).

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 30, 2020 2:20 UTC (Wed) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link] (1 responses)

Omitting the Emacs/Unix-specific step of invoking LaTeX, Excel or just about any spreadsheet can do it just fine. Again, the old joke is "Emacs is a great operating system, lacking only a decent editor". Why should I open a CSV file in a text editor and expect it to be treated like a spreadsheet?

> One more thing: the Real CUA key combinations for cut (Shift-Del), copy (Ctrl-Ins) and paste (Shift-Ins) are also available. Apple forced us to learn new key combinations for those functions.

Because the original ones were horrible? Maybe if any two keyboards kept Del and Ins in the same spot, I could learn to touch-type with them, but that would still require moving my right hand from the normal position.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 30, 2020 6:26 UTC (Wed) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link]

>Omitting the Emacs/Unix-specific step of invoking LaTeX, Excel or just about any spreadsheet can do it just fine. Again, the old joke is "Emacs is a great operating system, lacking only a decent editor".

I really doubt a complete novice (not my words) could do it with Excel either. But the general expectation seems to be that if you are unable to do something in Excel, then "stop complaining and start learning". My objection was directed at commenter pgdx who complained that if a "complete novice" can't do this convoluted task without reading 600 pages of manual then "then that is where you have lost 90% of users." Isn't it a bit unfair to expect Emacs to enable someone who has always lived under a rock to be able to handle CSV files using it, without first learning the basics?

Another joke is that Emacs stands for "Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping". Oh, the horror.

>Why should I open a CSV file in a text editor and expect it to be treated like a spreadsheet?

You don't have to, if you don't want to. I guess the example was just to demonstrate how powerful and extendible Emacs is. If you don't care about org-mode or csv-mode, then please ignore them. They don't bloat Emacs, other than taking up a bit of disk space.

>Because the original ones were horrible? Maybe if any two keyboards kept Del and Ins in the same spot, I could learn to touch-type with them, but that would still require moving my right hand from the normal position.

My comment on the CUA key bindings was written with tongue in cheek. My point was that key bindings have not been set in stone since the beginning of the IT era, and also that talking about Ctrl-x/c/v as "Common User Access Keys" is a misnomer.