Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps [LWN.net]

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 1:20 UTC (Sun) by loox (guest, #142138)
In reply to: Toward a "modern" Emacs by Cyberax
Parent article: Toward a "modern" Emacs

Forget other editors, it’s not a matter of competition. Instead, Emacs does not appeal to the “modern” user because of some glaring lacks. I use BBEdit on Mac and would be willing to switch to emacs. I do not care about Visual Code Studio or TextMate, I’m happy with BBEdit and I’d be glad to be happier with emacs. Here follow the main facts that keep me from investing time on emacs:

1) I’m European. We live with accents and other exotic characters. More, being 2020, I use emoticons. Emacs _as is_ doesn’t work with Unicode. Please, don’t tell me how easy it is to fix it. Just fix it for me, thanks. Any other, er, modern editor is Unicode-enabled, period.
2) I’m in bed at the moment, writing with my iPad. Tomorrow morning I’ll wake up, I’ll wake my Mac up, and I’ll instantly work with whatever document I was working now on the iPad. This means:
2a) I want emacs on my iPad. I sorely miss BBEdit in my iPad. A reason to switch to emacs would be the ability to u se it from my iPad. I realize that having emacs on a iPhone borders with absurd; ok. Having it on the iPad doesn’t.
2b) Synchronization. Please make Emacs iCloud-ready, Dropbox-ready, Pcloud-ready, Box-ready, whatever-ready if you don’t want to create emacs’ own sync service.
I fully understand the conflicts between GPL and the App Store. Sorry, I’m not a lawyer; I’m a user. Want emacs to appeal more to users? Make it work for users, then. Write GPL4 if needed, talk with Apple and Google, kiss a frog. This crusade against app stores is not in the interest of users. If an app is universally available to whoever wants to download it, freedom of redistributing it is actually pointless. GPL should contemplate an exception in this case.
3) Import-Export. Make it easy to import and export common formats. I know you’re programmers; I’m more of an editor, Please make easy, really easy, to output a PDF, writing in Markdown, preview an HTML document.

The chatting about dark mode or video tutorials is moot. It would be more useful, in fact, a graphical app with a micro-emacs inside, that people can try to discover the capabilities of emacs while getting work done in the while.

Thanks for the attention.

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Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 12:24 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (6 responses)

Having it on the iPad doesn’t.

Of course it's absurd. Apple made it impossible to make GPLed programs for iPad and don't think FSF would be willing to compromise.

Please make Emacs iCloud-ready, Dropbox-ready, Pcloud-ready, Box-ready, whatever-ready if you don’t want to create emacs’ own sync service.

FSF would never do that and you know why.

I fully understand the conflicts between GPL and the App Store. Sorry, I’m not a lawyer; I’m a user.

If you say that then you don't understand the conflict.

Write GPL4 if needed, talk with Apple and Google, kiss a frog.

Lol. And what would be the end result? More users? But FSF's end goal is not to make users happy!

Users are just a means to get more developers and developers are needed to make free software. If the price of getting more users is making software not free... then the whole point of attracting them is lost.

It would be more useful, in fact, a graphical app with a micro-emacs inside, that people can try to discover the capabilities of emacs while getting work done in the while.

How would that help to produce more free software? That the main goal here, remember?

P.S. Please don't tell me that it's absurd to put the needs/wants of the users lower then the needs/wants of some piece of software (software is not alive, it doesn't have needs, after all). I know that and kind of agree with that. But situation is different from FSF's POV: that's the organization which is specifically made to promote free software and not to make popular software which makes users happy.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 21:27 UTC (Sun) by loox (guest, #142138) [Link] (5 responses)

>Users are just a means to get more developers and developers are needed to make free software. If the price of getting more users is making software not free... then the whole point of attracting them is lost.

Excluding one and half billion machines from running GPLed software, in order to promote free software, is not smart. Are you telling me that Firefox isn't free software? What about vim? VLC? I can run these apps, as well as plenty of other free software, on iPad. Find common ground with Apple; create it if needed; solve the issue. The current standoff is not promoting free software; it is making emacs increasingly irrelevant. Excellent work, FSF. My compliments.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 22:46 UTC (Sun) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Find common ground with Apple; create it if needed; solve the issue.

Wow, next you'll tell us you have a plan for peace in the Middle East.

(I'm reminded of the saying "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.")

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 22:55 UTC (Sun) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link]

I have seen posts about people getting Emacs running in iOS so it's not a technical problem with the code. I should point out that the GNU project doesn't provide pre-built binaries for ANY platform. It's up to someone else to build the software and distribute it. So, if that's not being done for iPad it's not really the GNU project's problem: that's not what they do. The problem is that no one else has done it.

So why has no one else done it? I don't know. Maybe you do?

I have heard three different things: one is that Apple doesn't allow interpreters in programs that run on the iPad. If that's true, the entire basis of Emacs (which is a Lisp enterpreter) is not allowed. How do you suggest that this be worked around? Other people say this is not true, or it was true but is not true anymore, and that other examples of interpreters exist. So maybe that's not the problem.

I've also heard that Apple won't allow an application to download other software. If that's true, it means that you can't use Emacs' package facility to install extra elisp packages. If all you care about is vanilla Emacs I guess that's fine but most people use at least one add-on package. Perhaps whomever created Emacs for the iPad could add in a bunch of the most popular external elisp packages--but the odds that it will include everything you might want are slim. But still, someone could publish Emacs if this were the only issue.

I've also heard that Apple won't allow any program licensed under the GPLv3 to appear in the app store. If this is true, then this certainly would be something that could not be solved by a user who wanted to publish an iPad version of Emacs. If this is the problem, how do you suppose this should be worked around?

When you say "work it out", is it your belief that Apple will agree to some compromise where both parties give some ground to come to a resolution? If that's how you think it would work I recommend you read about the current situation between Epic Games and Apple.

What you're really saying is, the GNU project should give in completely to Apple and do whatever they want, in order to increase their user base to include a group of people who either don't know or don't care about the fundamental reason the FSF and the GNU project exists, or anyway don't care enough to avoid buying hardware that is completely anathema to that reason.

That MIGHT make sense if the goal of the GNU project was to get as many users as possible. Although, the aforementioned Epic Games shows that even if that is your goal you might not be able to come to terms with Apple.

However, the GNU project isn't about increasing market share, it's about increasing software freedom. Compromising their principles to gain a group of users who are happy buying hardware that will only work with pre-compiled software that is selected for them by a single company who exercises absolute control over anything they could run on that hardware is... not an attractive deal for them, to say the least.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 28, 2020 8:29 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Are you telling me that Firefox isn't free software? What about vim? VLC?

As distributed on iPad/iPhone? All of these are not free. FSF even includes nice diagram to underscore it

I can run these apps, as well as plenty of other free software, on iPad.

No. You can't. All that software, as per FSF's definition is non-Free. And FSF argues that free software is better than open source. If you can run certain free software program then that means that their authors have given up on the free software and produced proprietary version for you to consume.

The current standoff is not promoting free software; it is making emacs increasingly irrelevant.

That's more-or-less what FSF heard about… well, few times per year for it's 35 years of existence. Their chances haven't changed. I don't think your rant would impress them all that much.

Excellent work, FSF. My compliments.

I know have meant that to be sarcastic... but I actually applaud them. At one time I was sure “open source” won and “free software” lost… but today… I'm not so sure anymore.

Think Clang vs GCC. Currently Clang is ahead… but just barely — and that's when it's about 10x (if not 100x) more popular among developers of derived products. Why? Because only Google pushes Clang itself. Everyone else are doing their own proprietary forks… and development effort spent on these, sooner or later, becomes a loss.

I'm not 100% sure which side would win (is it better to attract lots of users and developer even if 90% of development would go to waste… or is it better to have fewer developers — but the ones who care?), but I can certainly see where FSF comes from.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Oct 8, 2020 19:33 UTC (Thu) by markjanes (guest, #58426) [Link] (1 responses)

> Are you telling me that Firefox isn't free software? What about vim? VLC? I can run these apps, as well as plenty of other free software, on iPad.

I was surprised to find out that Firefox is prevented from running add-ons when running on iOS. For example, you cannot install adblock or extensions to ensure your browsing privacy.

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-ons-firefox-ios

Firefox as implemented on iOS is not free, because I am not free to run it in the manner that I choose.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Oct 9, 2020 13:51 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

Well, Firefox (or any browser really) on iOS is just a reskinned Safari. So you get syncing at least. But without the actual engine, how many add-ons actually work? But doing a vetted list of add-ons makes sense to me there. They seem to be doing something similar on Android too. For example, uBlock Origin works on Android, but Intention has not yet been allowed (I presume they do some performance metrics to avoid churning needless battery?). I also assume that they're using metrics to figure out which ones to focus on first.

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 13:45 UTC (Sun) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link] (1 responses)

>1) I’m European. We live with accents and other exotic characters. More, being 2020, I use emoticons. Emacs _as is_ doesn’t work with Unicode. Please, don’t tell me how easy it is to fix it. Just fix it for me, thanks. Any other, er, modern editor is Unicode-enabled, period.

What problem do you have with accents in Emacs? I have not had any problems with them in Emacs for a long time. No configuration needed, either.

Emacs also supports emojis, I just tried and got a grinning face *in color* on screen in Emacs. Granted, I had to choose a font that supports emojis, and I had to enter it using "C-x 8 RET grinning face RET". How do you do that in your "modern, Unicode-enabled" editor? Is your keyboard equipped with a key that has a yellow grinning face printed on it?

Toward a "modern" Emacs - First Steps

Posted Sep 27, 2020 21:03 UTC (Sun) by loox (guest, #142138) [Link]

>What problem do you have with accents in Emacs? I have not had any problems with them in Emacs for a long time. No configuration needed, either.

You're right; I stand corrected on this. Thanks!