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Who controls glibc?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 19:57 UTC (Mon) by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
Parent article: Who controls glibc?

This is the beginning of the end of glibc and probably GNU. It's a really bad sign when people start making non-technical changes to accommodate unreasonable people who would take serious offense at a dumb joke in a man page. It shows the maintainers have lost their judgment. Organizations die one paper cut at a time. RIP


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Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 20:27 UTC (Mon) by raegis (subscriber, #19594) [Link]

Or, perhaps it's just that when the leadership of an organization gradually changes over time, the values of the organization change with them. I think saying this signals the end of Glibc is a stretch.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 20:40 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (69 responses)

It's a joke that ties a technical subject to one that has strong emotional connotations, one that many readers may have personal experience of. As a result, it impairs the primary role of the documentation (ie, making it easy for people to find out what this function does and then get on with their life) and removing it is justifiable at a technical level.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 20:52 UTC (Mon) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (53 responses)

With genuine all due respect, this is exactly the sort of convoluted logic that leads projects to eventual demise. Designing documentation for exceedingly rare situations is inefficient design. Reality check: the vast majority of people (including those who have had abortions) would take little to no offense to this joke. Even further, most people wouldn't even realize this is a joke about abortion. https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Aborti...

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 21:10 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (49 responses)

It's not about people being offended. You could say something that reminds me of a recently deceased loved one, and that would generate a distracting emotional response in me - but you wouldn't have said anything offensive. If you *knew* that saying that was likely to trigger that response in me it still wouldn't be offensive, but it would be inconsiderate. This joke is a direct reference to a sensitive topic that can be reasonably assumed to have an affect on a proportion of readers, which in turn reduces the utility of the documentation for those users. The removal is entirely justifiable on technical grounds.

(And if most people fail to understand that it's a reference to abortion then it's even worse - you're arguing that most people who read this joke aren't going to understand it, in which case removing it makes the documentation less confusing)

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 21:23 UTC (Mon) by andresfreund (subscriber, #69562) [Link] (1 responses)

I find the joke unfortunate *in that context* and I'd vote for removing it (if I had a vote). Even though I find the global gag rule abhorrent.

But the governance implications are the really concerning thing for me. Allowing RMS to come in and make calls over the actual maintainers' objections on random small things isn't healthy. I think there's cases where non-majority calls could be reasonable, but I utterly fail to see how that could be a case of hat. It's quite the pattern over time and projects too.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 4:21 UTC (Tue) by warrax (subscriber, #103205) [Link]

> Allowing RMS to come in and make calls over the actual maintainers' objections on random small things isn't healthy.

Yes, this struck me as being a pretty absurd style of "leadership".

RMS even says (paraphrased) "I'm usually very hands-off, but THIS... THIS is where I draw the line" on a completely innocuous change which has absolutely no impact on the technical content of the manual.

(Not that this is remotely any sort of existential crisis for glibc as some have claimed.)

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 21:25 UTC (Mon) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (45 responses)

Replace "it's offensive" with "it invokes an emotional response" in my point and it still stands.

I honestly don't think that reading the words that constitute the joke will invoke an emotional response in any significant proportion of its readers and, in the rare case that it does, they most likely have much bigger problems than the GNU manual.

Now if you genuinely think that a significant proportion of the population will be emotionally affected by those words, then by all means remove it. That just doesn't reflect the reality in which I live.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 21:32 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (44 responses)

> Now if you genuinely think that a significant proportion of the population will be emotionally affected by those words, then by all means remove it.

Ok so you agree that it's entirely technically justifiable to remove it if this is the case?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 21:59 UTC (Mon) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (43 responses)

>> Now if you genuinely think that a significant proportion of the population will be emotionally affected by those words, then by all means remove it.

> Ok so you agree that it's entirely technically justifiable to remove it if this is the case?

Yes, it's reasonable to get rid of it if it genuinely prevents a significant percentage of its audience from understanding the document. Again, that is likely not the case here.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 2:57 UTC (Tue) by likryol (guest, #115542) [Link] (42 responses)

Thought experiment: 100 people read a joke like this (maybe not exactly this joke in this subject), 99 are not negatively emotionally affected but 1 person is. It actually ruins their day. They decide to stop pursuing the technical subject for a period or possibly for good because they already experience enough of this insensitivity day-to-day; they don't need it in their deep technical work too.

Was it worth it? Maybe like 10 of those other 99 people got a small snort out of the joke, the other 89 ignored it because it's noise and we're adults reading glibc documentation, not 13 year old boys sneaking into Deadpool.

It's insensitive and useless. It disgusts a subset of people that could be valuable contributors.

If anything it needs to be removed purely to put RMS in his place and establish this as a technical project and not a repository of his outdated and sophomoric jokes.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 3:25 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (38 responses)

If someone quits a technical field because of this extremely subtle and innocuous joke, it's likely they would have quit anyway since everyday life is orders of magnitudes more difficult.

We can't design our systems around these hypothetical and extremely rare worst cases. The cost is too high and the benefits are too low. No reasonable person would otherwise make trade-offs like those.

Come back to reality, the joke is harmless, RMS is not a monster, let it go.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 3:40 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (37 responses)

The cost is minuscule (it's actually easier not to write these things than write them in the first place) and the potential benefit large (more people use free software, and potentially more people contribute to free software). What metrics are you using?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 8:35 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (32 responses)

It's not the joke itself that's at stake here. It's the decision making process. It can't be "this offends someone out there therefore let's take it out." Sooner or later you have nothing left (in terms of cultural values).

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 8:40 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (31 responses)

I'm not arguing that it should be removed because it's offensive, so this doesn't seem like a relevant objection.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 8:47 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (30 responses)

Sub offensive with whatever judgment you have of the joke. Point still applies.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 9:02 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (29 responses)

"This is likely to discourage some number of people from contributing to the project, does nothing to encourage additional people to contribute to the project, and serves as a distraction from the actual purpose of the work that contains it, therefore let's take it out"?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 9:28 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (18 responses)

Yes, the decision making process of "this will discourage some small % of potential contributors so let's take it out" is precisely the wrong way to make decisions. The cost of setting that precedent is the organization around the project itself.

The right way to make decisions is "this will encourage a large % of potential contributors so let's add it." Glibc is very far from that. Like I said, RIP.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 9:40 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (17 responses)

Ok, so that sounds like you don't think adding it in the first place was justifiable. What's the problem with reversing that (incorrect) decision?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 10:57 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (16 responses)

The problem is that the justification for the original patch in question is weak. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. When those types of changes start being encouraged, it's the beginning of the end. The project has no direction. People are now wasting their precious limited time looking for, preparing, and submitting one-line patches that have virtually no effect on the project. Then they go ahead and pat themselves on the back for having a productive day. There are hundreds of open bugs on bugzilla, but they are ignored in favor of these pseudo productive patches. This is the future of glibc.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 11:02 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (13 responses)

> It's a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

The problem exists.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 11:13 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (10 responses)

Hypothetically yes, but not in any way that solving it will drastically improve the state of glibc for its users. It's not that it's not okay to fix small things but there should be good reason for it, not some hypothetical "what if," especially when so many other things are broken. Has any actual user ever complained about this joke?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 12:38 UTC (Tue) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link] (1 responses)

Fixing small things should only require small reasons. If you have to think very carefully for days, consult dozens of people, do a cost-benefit analysis and write up an extensive rationale document every time you clean up a bit of code or a bit of documentation, it clearly won't be worth the effort. Then the project will collapse under the combined weight of a million tiny problems that nobody bothered fixing.

Efficiently fixing trivial issues seems like a requirement for sustainable software development, not a sign of its demise. (And it sounds like this patch was being handled efficiently until Stallman got involved). Sometimes projects will explicitly talk about paper cuts (minor usability bugs that are individually unimportant, but a user who encounters dozens of them will be strongly put off) and technical debt (problems that weren't worth fixing in the short term, but their cost will accumulate until they seriously impede development) because they're aware they need to deal with those minor issues - it's tempting to ignore them and focus on the highest-priority issues instead, but it's important for the project's long-term health to work on the little things too.

(Besides, in this specific case it's easy to find people like https://stackoverflow.com/questions/48445031/why-would-it... who seem genuinely confused by the statement and wasted an appreciable amount of time trying to understand it, so it's not a hypothetical problem.)

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 13:17 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link]

An obscure stack overflow thread does not justify this as a problem that is holding back glibc in any significant way. Do you genuinely believe removing this joke has moved the needle at all?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 12:58 UTC (Tue) by likryol (guest, #115542) [Link] (7 responses)

You're right, removing it won't (at least in the short term and likely not in the long term) drastically change anything for anyone. You've been saying this is a waste of time while other bugs are still festering, but consider for a second how much time it actually took to make this change happen. Someone saw the "joke", deleted it, committed it. What is that like 30 seconds of work? This isn't a bug that needed hours of time to discover and fix technically or socially, and the quick change could have some benefits for the project in the form of more contributors.

The real issue (and time waster) was when RMS came in and exerted authority he no longer deserves to have (I understand he is an ideological lead and not someone doing technical work, correct me if I'm wrong) thus creating an argument that anyone watching from the outside will see RMS as an overstepping grossly immature leader. Again, not for the joke but because of the authority he is trying to exercise over something so minuscule. If anything deserves "RIP for glibc" it's his behavior, not the 30 seconds of work it took to remove a dumb joke. And if jokes like that aren't turning people away, it will be seeing arguments like his unfold that will make potential contributors go "oooh...maybe I don't want to get into the middle of that culture..."

And all of that you could ultimately blame on someone making minor changes that don't need to happen, fine whatever maybe you're right. But the trigger for this argument and his excessive use of authority could have been more technical and we'd have the same argument at hand, it's probably happened before. This specific instance is easy to separate the technical from the not and so it ends up being reported on.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 13:11 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (2 responses)

Start to finish it takes much longer than 30 seconds for an outside contributor to get that change checked in. What kind of engineer goes through that just to remove a dumb joke? Those are the kinds of contributors glibc has these days. These aren't the types that make a project great.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 19:15 UTC (Tue) by rra (subscriber, #99804) [Link] (1 responses)

Do you follow glibc development closely? I ask because to me this is a bizarre statement given how dramatically better glibc has gotten in the past few years, in ways that are the exact opposite of what you're implying. It makes me think you're out of touch with current glibc development.

Right now, glibc is blessed with numerous people who are tackling large-scale, impactful work in substantial patch sets on topics ranging broadly from better standards compliance to security improvements to Y2038 issues. I have never seen the project healthier, and I've been following it for over a decade. Even the Hurd port is being resurrected from the dead, which regardless of one's opinions of the importance of this to the broader community is definitely not a trivial or minor effort. And this is happening without, so far as I can see, any slowing down of other work, which speaks to the breadth and capacity of the current development community.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 9, 2018 11:35 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I concur. glibc's gone from being a project that was verging on moribund to a project that's so active that keeping up with the mailing list alone, let alone the patch flow, is quite a lot of work. It's *lively*, and the changes taking place there are extremely nontrivial. (Even some of the changes with no functional effect -- e.g. classifying every entry point according to its multithread-safety.)

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 17, 2018 22:37 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (1 responses)

I can't blame RMS for not wanting his project to be taken over by ideologists. It's called Free Software for a reason. Freedom includes the freedom to say and write potentially hurtful things. And for the record, I *don't* think that joke is actually hurtful, and so far nobody has been able to produce an example of a person who was actually hurt or offended by this silly little joke. I don't believe there is such a person.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 24, 2018 17:34 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

If you think glibc is, in any meaningful sense, "RMS's project", you are deluding yourself. Before this thread, Richard had a total of five commits, all in 1995, all to either config.sub or config.guess, none more then 50 lines. (Its history starts in 1989, when the first RCS commit was made.)

This was Roland's project, then Roland and Ulrich's and a few others. Now it is a shared, community-governed project, and frankly RMS's trying to exert dictatorial control over it feels quite offensive, given that there is no sign of him in that community of developers at all.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 25, 2018 18:54 UTC (Fri) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (1 responses)

"You're right, removing it won't (at least in the short term and likely not in the long term) drastically change anything for anyone"

leaving it would not drastically change anything either, and would have taken 0 seconds.

"The real issue (and time waster)" is the removal patch. which created a Streisand effect on an obscure joke that pretty much no-one was aware of.

The stackoverflow link above, when I looked at it had been vewed 790 times.. and I bet most of it was because it was linked above.
but, I been consulting man pages for years, on myny different boxes and distro. I've never seen the 'joke' before
and it still not visible in any 'man abort' I've just ran on a few varied boxes.

iow: that joke has very little visibility, certainly epsilon wrt to 'floss user'. removing it will have 0 effect wrt to drafting new contributor, it it will have a small cumulative effect wrt to discouraging existing ones.... just like the wave of pronoun-war patches inflicted on floss, which had real effect of getting an actual maintainer to call it quit, for what SJW swear were hordes of 'potential contributor' that were not showing up because of it.... yeah .. how things are going in node.js world ?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 27, 2018 0:52 UTC (Sun) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

I've never seen the 'joke' before and it still not visible in any 'man abort' I've just ran on a few varied boxes.

That's probably because it isn't in the man page, it's in the Info documentation. Still doesn't make it funny.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 17, 2018 22:19 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

I'm sure it does exist in your head.

Who controls glibc?

Posted Aug 1, 2018 11:57 UTC (Wed) by diegor (subscriber, #1967) [Link]

If people is offended by abort, we should remove the abort() function. The joke does'nt add anything.

So why we don't censor every reference to "kill children" (process). Maybe someone have lost his kid, and be reminded of her lost.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 12:24 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (1 responses)

There are hundreds of open bugs on bugzilla, but they are ignored in favor of these pseudo productive patches. This is the future of glibc.

So Stallman thinks that as the notional “project leader” he gets to decide that his lame paragraph (I won't dignify it by calling it a “joke”) must stay in, but he doesn't think that as the notional “project leader” he ought to see about getting those hundreds of open bugs fixed? Some leadership.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 17, 2018 22:38 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

RMS always made it quite clear that he cares about freedom and not about software quality.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 17:08 UTC (Tue) by fuhchee (guest, #40059) [Link] (9 responses)

Counterpoint: "The presence of less-than-100%-PC humour is likely to *attract* some number of developers to the project. Therefore let's leave it in."

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 22:12 UTC (Tue) by jubal (subscriber, #67202) [Link] (8 responses)

Re-counterpoint: unfounded assumption.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 22:22 UTC (Tue) by fuhchee (guest, #40059) [Link] (5 responses)

Well the point is what is the burden of proof? I could point to ... myself ?! ... as someone who generally prefers a more relaxed type of community. I'm not the only one. So this is a reciprocal of the "if it turns someone, anyone away, it's bad" argument.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 23:22 UTC (Tue) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link] (2 responses)

Interesting point. I usually sometimes find myself re-phrasing and re-phrasing commit messages and even code comments over and over, especially when it's correcting a mistake someone made, at least at work. It's easier for private projects, but the potential to offend genuinely scares me.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 10, 2018 11:16 UTC (Thu) by zenaan (guest, #3778) [Link] (1 responses)

To paraphrase you: "The work to avoid offending the various categories of snowflake safe-space-junkies, can be a real cost, can be significant, is a detriment, and the chilling effect this all has is real."

THAT is the reason this particular joke (by RMS) should stay in the glibc manual.

"The triggered" and "the oppressed" are redefining permissible speech - which is ironically apropos RMS' original joke.

The redefinition of allowed speech is dangerous and literally tyrannical in the underlying intent of doing so (whether conscious, or unconscious) - refer Dr Jordan Peterson who puts this exact point so succinctly.

Create your world, folks,

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 10, 2018 22:11 UTC (Thu) by tvld (guest, #59052) [Link]

You keep advertising this opinion throughout this comment thread. But do you actually know the glibc developer community? Do you know what they think works well for them, and what helped them make all the technical progress on the project in the recent years? Have you attended a GNU Tools Cauldron, for example, to see how they work together and what kind of environment the actual developers want? The glibc community *is* building the environment they want.

Speaking as someone who has contributed to glibc in the recent years, my impression was that nobody was or felt bullied. Developers just *wanted* to be friendly to each other. IOW, you misjudge what drives this.

There's nothing wrong with a majority wanting to be friendly people in the first place and not being interested in bothering with unfriendly behavior.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 9, 2018 0:02 UTC (Wed) by likryol (guest, #115542) [Link] (1 responses)

I hear you but I think we can have a "relaxed community" without making questionable jokes in an official, long lived, and widely seen media.

Also I derailed the original point of this comment thread which is I think to say that if anything is adding up to "RIP glibc" it isn't the removal of OT content, it's the BDFL being excessively authoritarian.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 10, 2018 16:43 UTC (Thu) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link]

I think that's also something people in this debate often forget, the intent of the original committer is probably not to censor RMS or derail the project by starting this debate.

Who controls glibc?

Posted Jun 6, 2018 17:32 UTC (Wed) by clicea (guest, #75492) [Link] (1 responses)

Have a counterexample: I've stayed very far away from Rust just because they seem very heavy-handed on policing their developers.

Who controls glibc?

Posted Jun 7, 2018 16:27 UTC (Thu) by peter-b (guest, #66996) [Link]

Yes, I agree that the Rust community moderation policy works really well at fostering a productive and friendly atmosphere.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 17, 2018 22:17 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (3 responses)

The benefit is 0 because nobody has yet been able to demonstrate that *anybody* was actually offended by the joke, let alone anybody who actually makes a difference. OTOH, I find this whole debate extremely off-putting, and so do plenty of other people, which is something you seem to completely ignore.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 18, 2018 8:40 UTC (Fri) by gevaerts (subscriber, #21521) [Link] (1 responses)

Why should anyone care about you finding anything off-putting? Isn't the whole point of most of your comments that that's fine? Why are you being such a crybaby?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 18, 2018 9:33 UTC (Fri) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

The point is that nobody has yet been able to produce an example of a person who was *actually* hurt by that joke while there clearly are people who are annoyed by this sort of political correctness nonsense. LLVM lost a major contributor recently because of that sort thing.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 18, 2018 12:45 UTC (Fri) by sdalley (subscriber, #18550) [Link]

Yes, this whole debate *is* extremely off-putting, which is why I'm astonished that you're still blathering away about it when our esteemed editor has already told you to shut up.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 17, 2018 22:11 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (2 responses)

> Thought experiment: 100 people read a joke like this (maybe not exactly this joke in this subject), 99 are not negatively emotionally affected but 1 person is. It actually ruins their day. They decide to stop pursuing the technical subject for a period or possibly for good because they already experience enough of this insensitivity day-to-day; they don't need it in their deep technical work too.
Show me *one* cases where this joke has that effect. Because if you can't, you're just making shit up

> It's insensitive and useless. It disgusts a subset of people that could be valuable contributors.
So what about the people who are disgusted by this sort of SJW drama? Because I know I am. But you know what? I'd still contribute to glibc if I were interested, despite this nonsense. That's because I'm a grownup.

What you don't seem to understand is that the world is not a safe space. If you are in a psychological state that doesn't allow you to tolerate this kind of joke, you need to sort that out (see a therapist or something), because the world's not going to change to accommodate that. Nor should it.

That's enough

Posted May 17, 2018 22:15 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (1 responses)

OK, only warning. You've had three postings to insult others, you need to stop here, please.

Remember: this was not an article about a joke.

What are you even talking about?

Posted May 17, 2018 22:32 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

I honestly didn't mean to offend anybody here, and I'm not even sure why you would think that.

If you're thinking of the “see a therapist” thing, it wasn't meant as an insult. A functional human being needs to be able to tolerate this kind of joke, and if he or she can't, then yes, I believe seeing a therapist is the right thing to do.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 2:25 UTC (Tue) by riking (subscriber, #95706) [Link]

>... recently deceased loved one...
> If you *knew* that saying that was likely to trigger that response in me it still wouldn't be offensive, but it would be inconsiderate.

I disagree in regards to the severity here – that's not just "inconsiderate," that's flat-out malicious.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 23:28 UTC (Mon) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link] (1 responses)

Designing documentation for exceedingly rare situations is inefficient design? That seems a bizarre way to state what's going on here.

From the "designing documentation", how about there's advantages to avoiding tangents, even technical tangents, that make the documentation longer for little value to the average reader. There are probably a host of questions about how abort() works on various systems and its portability that this section doesn't answer, and it's wasting 10% of the documentation on a political "joke"? Cut that junk and go on.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 23:29 UTC (Mon) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link]

And yeah, I do appreciate the point RMS is making. It's still not relevant to the documentation.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 6:48 UTC (Tue) by daniels (subscriber, #16193) [Link]

> With genuine all due respect, this is exactly the sort of convoluted logic that leads projects to eventual demise. Designing documentation for exceedingly rare situations is inefficient design. [...] Even further, most people wouldn't even realize this is a joke about abortion.

It's difficult then to see why you're expending so much effort arguing in favour of a frankly terrible joke which would not be enlightening to 'most people'. Even with 'most people' ruled out of the audience, you'd further have to rule out the people who were already aware of the proposed legislation: it doesn't help to 'raise awareness' if you're only hitting a limited echo chamber.

If you don't want to design for corner cases, take it out (it just isn't helpful), and replace it with an explicit statement which clearly informs the reader, makes a well-argued position, and suggests how to take action. That's so clear and unambiguous that anyone will be able to follow.

Oh, and removing it also has the benefit of not raising negative reactions in others. Be it because people are offended by the discussion, or because they've had personal experience and it brings only an unexpected and unwelcome reminder, somewhere it has no place appearing and adds no value.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 20:58 UTC (Mon) by shemminger (subscriber, #5739) [Link]

Yup, the joke was is just RMS graffiti. With about as much useful impact as that.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 7:50 UTC (Tue) by lkundrak (subscriber, #43452) [Link] (12 responses)

If I read it correctly, the joke is basically a statement in support of abortion rights. If anything, wouldn't the "strong emotional connotations" be likely to be positive in the first place?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 8:37 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (11 responses)

For someone who's had an abortion, in a society that repeatedly tells people that doing so is shameful? I know multiple people who are strongly pro abortion rights but also very sensitive to jokes that reference them due to their own personal experiences.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 18:29 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (1 responses)

Are they programmers?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 18:32 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

Yes, they are - but remember that people often develop into programmers after they've already been exposed to a project, and their perception then may still influence their desire to contribute later.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 17, 2018 21:53 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (8 responses)

> For someone who's had an abortion, in a society that repeatedly tells people that doing so is shameful?
So you're saying that telling these people (in a humorous form) that they *should* have the right to get an abortion (and hence, implicitly, that it was wrong of other people to shame them for it) is also somehow offensive? What kind of logic is that?!

Besides, the world is not a safe space. If you're an adult and you can't handle a joke, go see a therapist.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 17, 2018 22:57 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (7 responses)

Where did I say it was offensive?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 18, 2018 6:29 UTC (Fri) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (6 responses)

The point is: if somebody can't handle this sort of joke, they are not human beings capable of functioning in a free society. A society where you can't make political jokes - whether it's because you'll be locked up like in the country I was born in, or because you risk societal death for triggering some crybaby - is not a free society. The problem is that by purging this kind of silly little thing you're establishing an atmosphere that will prevent people from making jokes (or even serious statements) that would actually *not* affect anyone negatively out of sheer fear that they might and that they'll be judged for that.

In fact I would argue that that is already happening in the US, especially on campus. And you have yet to prove that the joke has *actually* negatively impacted anyone.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 18, 2018 6:59 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

Ok so you're arguing against something that I didn't actually say

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 18, 2018 7:15 UTC (Fri) by karkhaz (subscriber, #99844) [Link] (4 responses)

> A society where you can't make political jokes - whether it's because you'll be locked up like in the country I was born in, or because you risk societal death for triggering some crybaby

Nobody suggested either of the above consequences happen to rms. Although I recall various other incidents that I suppose you're referring to, where a developer was pilloried for making offensive comments, this is not one of them. The only "punishment" here is the removal of the joke from the manual.

> by purging this kind of silly little thing you're establishing an atmosphere that will prevent people from making jokes

In this case, I don't see much evidence that anybody is calling for censorship of abortion jokes anywhere outside the technical reference. This was a patch to remove the joke from the manual, not a mandate to prevent rms from making these jokes on his own spare time.

> The point is: if somebody can't handle this sort of joke

The strongest argument I've heard from removing this from the manual isn't that some people cannot "handle" the joke, that it is offensive, or anything of the sort. Rather, it's a totally inappropriate comment to have in a technical manual.

(Somewhat contrived) analogy: suppose that in the documentation for posix_spawn, rms had written a snarky cartouche about his favourite restaurant for eating caviar. Totally uncontroversial, nobody gets offended. But the comment ought to be removed on exactly the same grounds as the abortion one: it doesn't belong in a technical manual, and the vast majority of readers didn't ask to be belaboured with rms's sense of humor.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 18, 2018 9:35 UTC (Fri) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (3 responses)

> Rather, it's a totally inappropriate comment to have in a technical manual.
I disagree with that notion. I don't see anything wrong with having a joke in a technical manual.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 18, 2018 23:10 UTC (Fri) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't have a problem with jokes in a technical manual but I prefer it if the jokes are actually funny.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 19, 2018 9:17 UTC (Sat) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (1 responses)

OK, suppose there was an absolutely hilarious joke about US abortion laws in the glibc manual. Would you support that?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 19, 2018 10:26 UTC (Sat) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

OK, let me rephrase that. I have no problem with jokes in a technical manual as long as the jokes are actually funny and are about the technical subject matter at hand.

This would exclude jokes about US abortion laws, however hilarious, in the glibc manual because the connection – via the word “abort” – is pretty tenuous at best and may not even work in translation (both because the target language may not use the same vocabulary, and because the legal situation around abortion may be different so the “joke” is not funny at all). It would also exclude political propaganda camouflaging as lame jokes in general. The reason for this is that when you're trying to be entertaining in a technical manual, it is best to do that in a way that, as far as possible, all readers of the manual will find enjoyable, not just the ones who happen to agree with your politics.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 17, 2018 21:46 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link]

As an adult you're supposed to be able to handle jokes that you don't like. If you can't, then you are the problem and not the one who made the joke.

Oh, and since you mentioned personal experiences, here's mine. I was born in a country where people would be locked up for telling the wrong kind of joke. Now granted, nobody has proposed that (yet), but a society where you have to walk on eggshells all the time because some crybaby may be offended is not a free society, and it's sad that things have come this far in the U. S..

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 7, 2018 21:06 UTC (Mon) by andresfreund (subscriber, #69562) [Link]

So that's what you're concerned about, rather than RMS making unilateral project decisions about a project he's not contributed to in ages, overriding the actual maintainers?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 1:20 UTC (Tue) by interalia (subscriber, #26615) [Link] (4 responses)

It's all in the article title, which isn't "Who thinks this is too PC?" but "Who controls glibc?".

It doesn't actually matter that this disagreement is about some joke in documentation. Suppose Stallman insisted that a function should return EAGAIN in some obscure corner case despite the maintainers thinking it was fine that it does not. Do you think they should defer to Stallman simply because he said so? Is he actually the BDFL he claims to be if the maintainers don't recognise that authority?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 2:12 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (3 responses)

RMS ultimately controls Glibc, whether he's benevolent or not. Whoever thought otherwise was deluding themselves. They are free to fork if they want but the GNU project is under the authority of RMS, no question about it.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 3:43 UTC (Tue) by rra (subscriber, #99804) [Link]

Do you think it's a good thing for the GNU project to be under the single authority of RMS?

Speaking as an FSF associate member, I don't, and I say that despite a great deal of respect for what RMS has accomplished. Any governance model that empowers one person that way seems rather dangerous to me. It's also not compatible with how tax-exempt non-profits should be run in the United States. (I realize that many of them, particularly ones founded by charismatic leaders, are run that way, but I think that's a bug, not a feature.)

The Free Software Foundation, like any other tax-exempt US non-profit, has a board of directors who are legally responsible for the actions of the FSF as a whole. They certainly are, and should be, reluctant to override RMS, but they should be capable of doing so if the situation warrants. (Jokes in manuals definitely don't; questions of maintenance authority for well-run GNU projects might.)

If RMS wants an organization that he solely and exclusively controls, well, don't make it a tax-exempt non-profit. Receiving preferential treatment from society and government because your organization supports the public good comes with an obligation to be responsible to the public and a board of directors for one's actions.

And even short of that (I certainly hope this particular issue doesn't get escalated to that level), devolution of authority is generally a good thing. GNU maintainers should be empowered to make decisions about the software they maintain in areas that aren't foundational. And this fairly obviously isn't foundational -- how many people reading this even knew that passage was there? Given that, how much influence could it have possibly had over the political question it tries to address?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 3:53 UTC (Tue) by interalia (subscriber, #26615) [Link] (1 responses)

Maybe it depends how we define "control" in this situation. No doubt the FSF has ultimate power to appoint and replace maintainers of GNU projects, but does Stallman have sole power to do this on the FSF's behalf?

Even if he does, it would be interesting to know the political ramifications of doing so. For example, the Queen of Australia (a title held by the Queen of the United Kingdom) appoints and replaces our governor-general. Formally she has the complete power to do so, but de facto she does so only on the advice of Australia's Prime Minister, and it would be a constitutional/international incident if she "interfered" by declining to follow our PM's advice. So in practice she does not have control of who Australia's governor-general is.

Stallman may or may not formally be in control of GNU libc, but is he willing to replace all its maintainers in order to keep this one line?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 9, 2018 4:05 UTC (Wed) by lxoliva (guest, #40702) [Link]

I don't get why the FSF is even brought up here. The FSF doesn't control GNU any more than GNU controls the FSF. One is an independent incorporated foundation, the other is an operating system, and an independent non-incorporated operating system development project. Richard founded and presides the FSF, and he's also founder and leader of GNU (Chief GNUisance), and he's also the founder of the Free Software movement, and more.

Saying the FSF has ultimate power to appoint and replace maintainers of GNU projects is not true at all. That who appoints and replaces maintainers of GNU projects is the Chief GNUisance. The FSF has nothing to do with it.

The FSF manages copyrights over some GNU projects, publishes software licenses used by most GNU projects, but it doesn't control GNU.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 9:25 UTC (Tue) by lordcheeto (guest, #124253) [Link] (23 responses)

This isn't really about the joke anymore. It was removed because a patch was submitted, there were no technical grounds to object to it being applied, and a consensus was reached in accordance with the rules of the community. While there was a comment on the joke from RMS saying not to remove it, the community should not be subject to his iron deference, has been maintained without his input, and this was not in the official Invariant Sections. He is welcome to his opinion, and is on the mailing list should he wish to express it. He did not, no one else did (I'm not counting this joke), and it was removed after 2 days of clear affirmations supporting the patch removing the joke.

This is about RMS pulling rank after the fact, and Alexandre Oliva ignoring the community principles in reverting it. Specifically, "Cases likely to need more review and a longer period before pushing a commit include: changes that have previously been controversial."

The removal was not controversial—no one objected, and AFAIK, this has no historical (much less recent) controversy surrounding it. It had clearly become controversial by the point the reversion was made by Alexandre.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 10:44 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (22 responses)

My point is that the the existence and check-in of the original patch is evidence that the glibc maintainers and contributors aren't really focusing on important changes to glibc. Someone spent like 30 minutes or likely more preparing this diff and submitting it. I don't know about you but I like to spend my increasingly limited programming time actually, you know, programming and solving hard problems.

That's why it seems like the beginning of the end of glibc. People are spending their time focusing on random things to remove on the basis of it potentially offending someone, instead of focusing on important changes that will solve actual problems. RIP

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 12:02 UTC (Tue) by gevaerts (subscriber, #21521) [Link] (1 responses)

Do *you* never do something that someone might find less important than something else you could be doing?

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 18:31 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link]

In shared project... No, I don't.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 13:42 UTC (Tue) by siddhesh (guest, #64914) [Link] (10 responses)

The patch author is not a maintainer, (s)he was a one-off contributor and the first review didn't even assume that this is going to blow up the way it did, so it must have been a no-brainer that one would get out of their way as they take a sip of their coffee. Heck, if Zack hadn't gotten to it for another day, then maybe I would have installed it.

But please don't let facts get in the way.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 18:33 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link]

None of these facts (of which I was alresdy aware) refute anything I wrote.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 18:40 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (8 responses)

Additionally the contributed and committed aren't innocent here. There were clear instructions not to remove the joke in the source code. They were intentionally undermining RMS from the start. It's clear they were maliciously hoping he wouldn't notice.

It's time to stop

Posted May 8, 2018 19:23 UTC (Tue) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (7 responses)

So at this point we understand well that you think little of the glibc project and you are not impressed with the patch. Could I ask that this stuff come to an end at this point? I don't see much value in arguing it further.

It's time to stop

Posted May 8, 2018 20:20 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (6 responses)

Thanks for the tap (and the article), I'll honor your request. RMS should fire these maintainers, it's clear they don't respect him. Sneaky underhanded behavior kills projects.

It's time to stop

Posted May 9, 2018 8:34 UTC (Wed) by lordcheeto (guest, #124253) [Link] (5 responses)

Calling it sneaky is uncalled-for. This was the removal of a few lines of a non-technical, outdated joke comment that hasn't been touched in 26 years. 2 days passed between when the patch was submitted and when it was installed, with no serious objections. That was plenty of time for a change of this narrow magnitude. There was no reason for Zach to believe that this seemingly innocuous removal would cause such a schism.

It's time to stop

Posted May 12, 2018 14:45 UTC (Sat) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

"I'll honor your request". Goes on to completely ignore the request starting with the next sentence...

It's time to stop

Posted May 25, 2018 19:43 UTC (Fri) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (3 responses)

"outdated joke"

not at all.. the Global Gag Rule has been re-instated January 23, 2017.

It's time to stop

Posted May 27, 2018 1:15 UTC (Sun) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (2 responses)

This is something that US presidents do as a matter of course as one of the first things after they've been inaugurated. They can do it by executive order without having to involve Congress, so it's an easy PR win with their voters. Reagan came up with it in the first place in 1984, then Bill Clinton rescinded it in 1993 and George W. Bush put it back on the books in 2001 until Obama got rid of it again in 2009. It is safe to assume that whichever Democrat takes over from Trump in (hopefully) 2021 will immediately throw it out once more, etc., ad infinitum.

In any case, the “joke” can't really be referring to the “global gag rule” because the “global gag rule” has nothing to do with domestic censorship (because 1st amendment) – it says that the USA will only fund NGOs in other countries if they aver that they do not “perform or actively promote abortion as a method of family planning”. Originally this applied only to family-planning funds; Trump's twist is that now it also extends to other types of health assistance, including HIV assistance.

It's time to stop

Posted Jun 9, 2018 1:39 UTC (Sat) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link] (1 responses)

The fact that it gets rescinded & reinstated so often is another reason why it's better removed, I guess, otherwise the release manager (who might not be from the US) has to check the current status of US law before every release…

It's time to stop

Posted Jun 9, 2018 10:39 UTC (Sat) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

That would only be an actual issue if the FSF was (a) headquartered outside the USA and (b) receiving funds from the US government for its family-planning or other medical work. Since neither of these premises apply, the “global gag rule” has no bearing on the glibc manual.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 13:56 UTC (Tue) by lordcheeto (guest, #124253) [Link] (8 responses)

Every open source project has small commits that are just typo fixes, documentation updates, etc. from people that happened to stumble upon it. Often from people that have never submitted a patch or pull request before, as appears to be the case here. It gets their feet wet. It introduces them to the community and their contribution guidelines.

This is a good thing.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 18:36 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (7 responses)

This was not a typo. This was a clear contradiction of the instructions that were in the source code. Everyone knew they were disobeying a request by RMS. An innocent first time contributor wouldn't do this. The contributor had an agenda from the beginning.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 18:54 UTC (Tue) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link] (6 responses)

Now you've gone off the deep end. Every sentence in your last post is untrue (well, except for the "not a typo"). But you know what? It doesn't matter. The issue remains not the fate of a stupid joke but the question of whether RMS does or does not have veto authority over a decision made by the development team. Whether this issue was exposed unintentionally or through deliberate provocation, it's now out in the open.

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 8, 2018 20:17 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (5 responses)

You can feign ignorance but diff doesn't lie, it was provocation. 1000 things fo fix about glibc but instead the lines with clear instructions to leave alone were targetted. When patches with the purpose of provocation start to surface, it's the beginning of the end. RMS should fire all of them.

Request #2

Posted May 8, 2018 20:18 UTC (Tue) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (4 responses)

I'll repeat: we get it. We know how you feel about all of this. Now would be a good time to stop posting these, please.

Request #2

Posted May 8, 2018 20:50 UTC (Tue) by spacemachine (guest, #124210) [Link] (3 responses)

Separate question, why am I being asked to stop when it's other people that keep responding to me and ignoring my points? Why does it matter how many comments there are?

Request #2

Posted May 8, 2018 21:14 UTC (Tue) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (2 responses)

It is my wish for everybody to stop this particular back-and-forth, not just you. But, of the 111 comments on this article (as of this writing) 22 — a full 20% — were written by you. That suggests that you're the one driving this particular cycle; if you stop, I suspect that most others will as well. Though somebody will inevitably respond to one of your comments; I hope you'll be able to let that slide.

"Number of comments" is not necessarily a problem, but large numbers of repetitive comments can only drown out the signal in the conversation overall.

Calling supporters of this change "malicious" is also heading into personal attack territory, which is not something we want here.

You are not unique in any of the above, but you stood out enough to make you an obvious intervention point when I wanted to calm things down in general. I appreciate your willingness to respect that request.

(Incidentally, I almost didn't write this article at all out of fear for what the comment stream could be. It has not come even close to what we had imagined; for that we are grateful to everybody involved.)

Request #2

Posted May 8, 2018 22:19 UTC (Tue) by andresfreund (subscriber, #69562) [Link]

> (Incidentally, I almost didn't write this article at all out of fear for what the comment stream could be. It has not come even close to what we had imagined; for that we are grateful to everybody involved.)

I think that's a complicating factor. But I still appreciate the article. Sometimes I wonder if this kind of article couldn't stand having comments disabled. Or at least rate-limited to one an hour or such.

Request #2

Posted Nov 8, 2018 17:03 UTC (Thu) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link]

Jonathan, I think the topic touches an interesting phenomenon that runs deep in our society.

There are people who abhor the increasing influence that political correctness has on the freedom of expression, and so are extremely sensitive on any infringement -- in a way that is not entirely dissymmetric with how the people representing the political correctness side feel.

This is a profound issue, there is no mistake. And while I appreciate that formally the topic of the article is elsewhere, I'm sure we'll be back to discuss it again and again. I don't think it's really useful to try fighting the wind in this case..

That said, this is your forum, Jonathan, and I appreciate all the work you have put into it over the years!

Who controls glibc?

Posted May 11, 2018 14:53 UTC (Fri) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link]

I agree. I think the joke is in poor taste, and totally disagree with RMS based on personal views.
I also support and defend the right for jokes I find tasteless to exist and clutter manuals.
Wretched taste is the a key defense against Politically Correct totalitarianism.


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