Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Posted May 7, 2018 19:57 UTC (Mon) by spacemachine (guest, #124210)Parent article: Who controls glibc?
Posted May 7, 2018 20:27 UTC (Mon)
by raegis (subscriber, #19594)
[Link]
Posted May 7, 2018 20:40 UTC (Mon)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (69 responses)
Posted May 7, 2018 20:52 UTC (Mon)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (53 responses)
Posted May 7, 2018 21:10 UTC (Mon)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (49 responses)
(And if most people fail to understand that it's a reference to abortion then it's even worse - you're arguing that most people who read this joke aren't going to understand it, in which case removing it makes the documentation less confusing)
Posted May 7, 2018 21:23 UTC (Mon)
by andresfreund (subscriber, #69562)
[Link] (1 responses)
But the governance implications are the really concerning thing for me. Allowing RMS to come in and make calls over the actual maintainers' objections on random small things isn't healthy. I think there's cases where non-majority calls could be reasonable, but I utterly fail to see how that could be a case of hat. It's quite the pattern over time and projects too.
Posted May 8, 2018 4:21 UTC (Tue)
by warrax (subscriber, #103205)
[Link]
Yes, this struck me as being a pretty absurd style of "leadership".
RMS even says (paraphrased) "I'm usually very hands-off, but THIS... THIS is where I draw the line" on a completely innocuous change which has absolutely no impact on the technical content of the manual.
(Not that this is remotely any sort of existential crisis for glibc as some have claimed.)
Posted May 7, 2018 21:25 UTC (Mon)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (45 responses)
I honestly don't think that reading the words that constitute the joke will invoke an emotional response in any significant proportion of its readers and, in the rare case that it does, they most likely have much bigger problems than the GNU manual.
Now if you genuinely think that a significant proportion of the population will be emotionally affected by those words, then by all means remove it. That just doesn't reflect the reality in which I live.
Posted May 7, 2018 21:32 UTC (Mon)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (44 responses)
Ok so you agree that it's entirely technically justifiable to remove it if this is the case?
Posted May 7, 2018 21:59 UTC (Mon)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (43 responses)
> Ok so you agree that it's entirely technically justifiable to remove it if this is the case?
Yes, it's reasonable to get rid of it if it genuinely prevents a significant percentage of its audience from understanding the document. Again, that is likely not the case here.
Posted May 8, 2018 2:57 UTC (Tue)
by likryol (guest, #115542)
[Link] (42 responses)
Was it worth it? Maybe like 10 of those other 99 people got a small snort out of the joke, the other 89 ignored it because it's noise and we're adults reading glibc documentation, not 13 year old boys sneaking into Deadpool.
It's insensitive and useless. It disgusts a subset of people that could be valuable contributors.
If anything it needs to be removed purely to put RMS in his place and establish this as a technical project and not a repository of his outdated and sophomoric jokes.
Posted May 8, 2018 3:25 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (38 responses)
We can't design our systems around these hypothetical and extremely rare worst cases. The cost is too high and the benefits are too low. No reasonable person would otherwise make trade-offs like those.
Come back to reality, the joke is harmless, RMS is not a monster, let it go.
Posted May 8, 2018 3:40 UTC (Tue)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (37 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 8:35 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (32 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 8:40 UTC (Tue)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (31 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 8:47 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (30 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 9:02 UTC (Tue)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (29 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 9:28 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (18 responses)
The right way to make decisions is "this will encourage a large % of potential contributors so let's add it." Glibc is very far from that. Like I said, RIP.
Posted May 8, 2018 9:40 UTC (Tue)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (17 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 10:57 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (16 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 11:02 UTC (Tue)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (13 responses)
The problem exists.
Posted May 8, 2018 11:13 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 12:38 UTC (Tue)
by excors (subscriber, #95769)
[Link] (1 responses)
Efficiently fixing trivial issues seems like a requirement for sustainable software development, not a sign of its demise. (And it sounds like this patch was being handled efficiently until Stallman got involved). Sometimes projects will explicitly talk about paper cuts (minor usability bugs that are individually unimportant, but a user who encounters dozens of them will be strongly put off) and technical debt (problems that weren't worth fixing in the short term, but their cost will accumulate until they seriously impede development) because they're aware they need to deal with those minor issues - it's tempting to ignore them and focus on the highest-priority issues instead, but it's important for the project's long-term health to work on the little things too.
(Besides, in this specific case it's easy to find people like https://stackoverflow.com/questions/48445031/why-would-it... who seem genuinely confused by the statement and wasted an appreciable amount of time trying to understand it, so it's not a hypothetical problem.)
Posted May 8, 2018 13:17 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
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Posted May 8, 2018 12:58 UTC (Tue)
by likryol (guest, #115542)
[Link] (7 responses)
The real issue (and time waster) was when RMS came in and exerted authority he no longer deserves to have (I understand he is an ideological lead and not someone doing technical work, correct me if I'm wrong) thus creating an argument that anyone watching from the outside will see RMS as an overstepping grossly immature leader. Again, not for the joke but because of the authority he is trying to exercise over something so minuscule. If anything deserves "RIP for glibc" it's his behavior, not the 30 seconds of work it took to remove a dumb joke. And if jokes like that aren't turning people away, it will be seeing arguments like his unfold that will make potential contributors go "oooh...maybe I don't want to get into the middle of that culture..."
And all of that you could ultimately blame on someone making minor changes that don't need to happen, fine whatever maybe you're right. But the trigger for this argument and his excessive use of authority could have been more technical and we'd have the same argument at hand, it's probably happened before. This specific instance is easy to separate the technical from the not and so it ends up being reported on.
Posted May 8, 2018 13:11 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 19:15 UTC (Tue)
by rra (subscriber, #99804)
[Link] (1 responses)
Right now, glibc is blessed with numerous people who are tackling large-scale, impactful work in substantial patch sets on topics ranging broadly from better standards compliance to security improvements to Y2038 issues. I have never seen the project healthier, and I've been following it for over a decade. Even the Hurd port is being resurrected from the dead, which regardless of one's opinions of the importance of this to the broader community is definitely not a trivial or minor effort. And this is happening without, so far as I can see, any slowing down of other work, which speaks to the breadth and capacity of the current development community.
Posted May 9, 2018 11:35 UTC (Wed)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted May 17, 2018 22:37 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 24, 2018 17:34 UTC (Thu)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
This was Roland's project, then Roland and Ulrich's and a few others. Now it is a shared, community-governed project, and frankly RMS's trying to exert dictatorial control over it feels quite offensive, given that there is no sign of him in that community of developers at all.
Posted May 25, 2018 18:54 UTC (Fri)
by shmget (guest, #58347)
[Link] (1 responses)
leaving it would not drastically change anything either, and would have taken 0 seconds.
"The real issue (and time waster)" is the removal patch. which created a Streisand effect on an obscure joke that pretty much no-one was aware of.
The stackoverflow link above, when I looked at it had been vewed 790 times.. and I bet most of it was because it was linked above.
iow: that joke has very little visibility, certainly epsilon wrt to 'floss user'. removing it will have 0 effect wrt to drafting new contributor, it it will have a small cumulative effect wrt to discouraging existing ones.... just like the wave of pronoun-war patches inflicted on floss, which had real effect of getting an actual maintainer to call it quit, for what SJW swear were hordes of 'potential contributor' that were not showing up because of it.... yeah .. how things are going in node.js world ?
Posted May 27, 2018 0:52 UTC (Sun)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link]
That's probably because it isn't in the man page, it's in the Info documentation. Still doesn't make it funny.
Posted May 17, 2018 22:19 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link]
Posted Aug 1, 2018 11:57 UTC (Wed)
by diegor (subscriber, #1967)
[Link]
So why we don't censor every reference to "kill children" (process). Maybe someone have lost his kid, and be reminded of her lost.
Posted May 8, 2018 12:24 UTC (Tue)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (1 responses)
So Stallman thinks that as the notional “project leader” he gets to decide that his lame paragraph (I won't dignify it by calling it a “joke”) must stay in, but he doesn't think that as the notional “project leader” he ought to see about getting those hundreds of open bugs fixed? Some leadership.
Posted May 17, 2018 22:38 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
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Posted May 8, 2018 17:08 UTC (Tue)
by fuhchee (guest, #40059)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 22:12 UTC (Tue)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 22:22 UTC (Tue)
by fuhchee (guest, #40059)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 23:22 UTC (Tue)
by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 10, 2018 11:16 UTC (Thu)
by zenaan (guest, #3778)
[Link] (1 responses)
THAT is the reason this particular joke (by RMS) should stay in the glibc manual.
"The triggered" and "the oppressed" are redefining permissible speech - which is ironically apropos RMS' original joke.
The redefinition of allowed speech is dangerous and literally tyrannical in the underlying intent of doing so (whether conscious, or unconscious) - refer Dr Jordan Peterson who puts this exact point so succinctly.
Create your world, folks,
Posted May 10, 2018 22:11 UTC (Thu)
by tvld (guest, #59052)
[Link]
Speaking as someone who has contributed to glibc in the recent years, my impression was that nobody was or felt bullied. Developers just *wanted* to be friendly to each other. IOW, you misjudge what drives this.
There's nothing wrong with a majority wanting to be friendly people in the first place and not being interested in bothering with unfriendly behavior.
Posted May 9, 2018 0:02 UTC (Wed)
by likryol (guest, #115542)
[Link] (1 responses)
Also I derailed the original point of this comment thread which is I think to say that if anything is adding up to "RIP glibc" it isn't the removal of OT content, it's the BDFL being excessively authoritarian.
Posted May 10, 2018 16:43 UTC (Thu)
by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604)
[Link]
Posted Jun 6, 2018 17:32 UTC (Wed)
by clicea (guest, #75492)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jun 7, 2018 16:27 UTC (Thu)
by peter-b (guest, #66996)
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Posted May 17, 2018 22:17 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted May 18, 2018 8:40 UTC (Fri)
by gevaerts (subscriber, #21521)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 18, 2018 9:33 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
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Posted May 18, 2018 12:45 UTC (Fri)
by sdalley (subscriber, #18550)
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Posted May 17, 2018 22:11 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (2 responses)
> It's insensitive and useless. It disgusts a subset of people that could be valuable contributors.
What you don't seem to understand is that the world is not a safe space. If you are in a psychological state that doesn't allow you to tolerate this kind of joke, you need to sort that out (see a therapist or something), because the world's not going to change to accommodate that. Nor should it.
Posted May 17, 2018 22:15 UTC (Thu)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (1 responses)
Remember: this was not an article about a joke.
Posted May 17, 2018 22:32 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link]
If you're thinking of the “see a therapist” thing, it wasn't meant as an insult. A functional human being needs to be able to tolerate this kind of joke, and if he or she can't, then yes, I believe seeing a therapist is the right thing to do.
Posted May 8, 2018 2:25 UTC (Tue)
by riking (subscriber, #95706)
[Link]
I disagree in regards to the severity here – that's not just "inconsiderate," that's flat-out malicious.
Posted May 7, 2018 23:28 UTC (Mon)
by dvdeug (guest, #10998)
[Link] (1 responses)
From the "designing documentation", how about there's advantages to avoiding tangents, even technical tangents, that make the documentation longer for little value to the average reader. There are probably a host of questions about how abort() works on various systems and its portability that this section doesn't answer, and it's wasting 10% of the documentation on a political "joke"? Cut that junk and go on.
Posted May 7, 2018 23:29 UTC (Mon)
by dvdeug (guest, #10998)
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Posted May 8, 2018 6:48 UTC (Tue)
by daniels (subscriber, #16193)
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It's difficult then to see why you're expending so much effort arguing in favour of a frankly terrible joke which would not be enlightening to 'most people'. Even with 'most people' ruled out of the audience, you'd further have to rule out the people who were already aware of the proposed legislation: it doesn't help to 'raise awareness' if you're only hitting a limited echo chamber.
If you don't want to design for corner cases, take it out (it just isn't helpful), and replace it with an explicit statement which clearly informs the reader, makes a well-argued position, and suggests how to take action. That's so clear and unambiguous that anyone will be able to follow.
Oh, and removing it also has the benefit of not raising negative reactions in others. Be it because people are offended by the discussion, or because they've had personal experience and it brings only an unexpected and unwelcome reminder, somewhere it has no place appearing and adds no value.
Posted May 7, 2018 20:58 UTC (Mon)
by shemminger (subscriber, #5739)
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Posted May 8, 2018 7:50 UTC (Tue)
by lkundrak (subscriber, #43452)
[Link] (12 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 8:37 UTC (Tue)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 18:29 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 18:32 UTC (Tue)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link]
Posted May 17, 2018 21:53 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (8 responses)
Besides, the world is not a safe space. If you're an adult and you can't handle a joke, go see a therapist.
Posted May 17, 2018 22:57 UTC (Thu)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted May 18, 2018 6:29 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (6 responses)
In fact I would argue that that is already happening in the US, especially on campus. And you have yet to prove that the joke has *actually* negatively impacted anyone.
Posted May 18, 2018 6:59 UTC (Fri)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link]
Posted May 18, 2018 7:15 UTC (Fri)
by karkhaz (subscriber, #99844)
[Link] (4 responses)
Nobody suggested either of the above consequences happen to rms. Although I recall various other incidents that I suppose you're referring to, where a developer was pilloried for making offensive comments, this is not one of them. The only "punishment" here is the removal of the joke from the manual.
> by purging this kind of silly little thing you're establishing an atmosphere that will prevent people from making jokes
In this case, I don't see much evidence that anybody is calling for censorship of abortion jokes anywhere outside the technical reference. This was a patch to remove the joke from the manual, not a mandate to prevent rms from making these jokes on his own spare time.
> The point is: if somebody can't handle this sort of joke
The strongest argument I've heard from removing this from the manual isn't that some people cannot "handle" the joke, that it is offensive, or anything of the sort. Rather, it's a totally inappropriate comment to have in a technical manual.
(Somewhat contrived) analogy: suppose that in the documentation for posix_spawn, rms had written a snarky cartouche about his favourite restaurant for eating caviar. Totally uncontroversial, nobody gets offended. But the comment ought to be removed on exactly the same grounds as the abortion one: it doesn't belong in a technical manual, and the vast majority of readers didn't ask to be belaboured with rms's sense of humor.
Posted May 18, 2018 9:35 UTC (Fri)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted May 18, 2018 23:10 UTC (Fri)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (2 responses)
I don't have a problem with jokes in a technical manual but I prefer it if the jokes are actually funny.
Posted May 19, 2018 9:17 UTC (Sat)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 19, 2018 10:26 UTC (Sat)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link]
OK, let me rephrase that. I have no problem with jokes in a technical manual as long as the jokes are actually funny and are about the technical subject matter at hand.
This would exclude jokes about US abortion laws, however hilarious, in the glibc manual because the connection – via the word “abort” – is pretty tenuous at best and may not even work in translation (both because the target language may not use the same vocabulary, and because the legal situation around abortion may be different so the “joke” is not funny at all). It would also exclude political propaganda camouflaging as lame jokes in general. The reason for this is that when you're trying to be entertaining in a technical manual, it is best to do that in a way that, as far as possible, all readers of the manual will find enjoyable, not just the ones who happen to agree with your politics.
Posted May 17, 2018 21:46 UTC (Thu)
by HelloWorld (guest, #56129)
[Link]
Oh, and since you mentioned personal experiences, here's mine. I was born in a country where people would be locked up for telling the wrong kind of joke. Now granted, nobody has proposed that (yet), but a society where you have to walk on eggshells all the time because some crybaby may be offended is not a free society, and it's sad that things have come this far in the U. S..
Posted May 7, 2018 21:06 UTC (Mon)
by andresfreund (subscriber, #69562)
[Link]
Posted May 8, 2018 1:20 UTC (Tue)
by interalia (subscriber, #26615)
[Link] (4 responses)
It doesn't actually matter that this disagreement is about some joke in documentation. Suppose Stallman insisted that a function should return EAGAIN in some obscure corner case despite the maintainers thinking it was fine that it does not. Do you think they should defer to Stallman simply because he said so? Is he actually the BDFL he claims to be if the maintainers don't recognise that authority?
Posted May 8, 2018 2:12 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 3:43 UTC (Tue)
by rra (subscriber, #99804)
[Link]
Speaking as an FSF associate member, I don't, and I say that despite a great deal of respect for what RMS has accomplished. Any governance model that empowers one person that way seems rather dangerous to me. It's also not compatible with how tax-exempt non-profits should be run in the United States. (I realize that many of them, particularly ones founded by charismatic leaders, are run that way, but I think that's a bug, not a feature.)
The Free Software Foundation, like any other tax-exempt US non-profit, has a board of directors who are legally responsible for the actions of the FSF as a whole. They certainly are, and should be, reluctant to override RMS, but they should be capable of doing so if the situation warrants. (Jokes in manuals definitely don't; questions of maintenance authority for well-run GNU projects might.)
If RMS wants an organization that he solely and exclusively controls, well, don't make it a tax-exempt non-profit. Receiving preferential treatment from society and government because your organization supports the public good comes with an obligation to be responsible to the public and a board of directors for one's actions.
And even short of that (I certainly hope this particular issue doesn't get escalated to that level), devolution of authority is generally a good thing. GNU maintainers should be empowered to make decisions about the software they maintain in areas that aren't foundational. And this fairly obviously isn't foundational -- how many people reading this even knew that passage was there? Given that, how much influence could it have possibly had over the political question it tries to address?
Posted May 8, 2018 3:53 UTC (Tue)
by interalia (subscriber, #26615)
[Link] (1 responses)
Even if he does, it would be interesting to know the political ramifications of doing so. For example, the Queen of Australia (a title held by the Queen of the United Kingdom) appoints and replaces our governor-general. Formally she has the complete power to do so, but de facto she does so only on the advice of Australia's Prime Minister, and it would be a constitutional/international incident if she "interfered" by declining to follow our PM's advice. So in practice she does not have control of who Australia's governor-general is.
Stallman may or may not formally be in control of GNU libc, but is he willing to replace all its maintainers in order to keep this one line?
Posted May 9, 2018 4:05 UTC (Wed)
by lxoliva (guest, #40702)
[Link]
Saying the FSF has ultimate power to appoint and replace maintainers of GNU projects is not true at all. That who appoints and replaces maintainers of GNU projects is the Chief GNUisance. The FSF has nothing to do with it.
The FSF manages copyrights over some GNU projects, publishes software licenses used by most GNU projects, but it doesn't control GNU.
Posted May 8, 2018 9:25 UTC (Tue)
by lordcheeto (guest, #124253)
[Link] (23 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 10:44 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (22 responses)
That's why it seems like the beginning of the end of glibc. People are spending their time focusing on random things to remove on the basis of it potentially offending someone, instead of focusing on important changes that will solve actual problems. RIP
Posted May 8, 2018 12:02 UTC (Tue)
by gevaerts (subscriber, #21521)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 18:31 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
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Posted May 8, 2018 13:42 UTC (Tue)
by siddhesh (guest, #64914)
[Link] (10 responses)
But please don't let facts get in the way.
Posted May 8, 2018 18:33 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
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Posted May 8, 2018 18:40 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 19:23 UTC (Tue)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 20:20 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted May 9, 2018 8:34 UTC (Wed)
by lordcheeto (guest, #124253)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted May 12, 2018 14:45 UTC (Sat)
by niner (subscriber, #26151)
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Posted May 25, 2018 19:43 UTC (Fri)
by shmget (guest, #58347)
[Link] (3 responses)
not at all.. the Global Gag Rule has been re-instated January 23, 2017.
Posted May 27, 2018 1:15 UTC (Sun)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (2 responses)
This is something that US presidents do as a matter of course as one of the first things after they've been inaugurated. They can do it by executive order without having to involve Congress, so it's an easy PR win with their voters. Reagan came up with it in the first place in 1984, then Bill Clinton rescinded it in 1993 and George W. Bush put it back on the books in 2001 until Obama got rid of it again in 2009. It is safe to assume that whichever Democrat takes over from Trump in (hopefully) 2021 will immediately throw it out once more, etc., ad infinitum.
In any case, the “joke” can't really be referring to the “global gag rule” because the “global gag rule” has nothing to do with domestic censorship (because 1st amendment) – it says that the USA will only fund NGOs in other countries if they aver that they do not “perform or actively promote abortion as a method of family planning”. Originally this applied only to family-planning funds; Trump's twist is that now it also extends to other types of health assistance, including HIV assistance.
Posted Jun 9, 2018 1:39 UTC (Sat)
by JanC_ (guest, #34940)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jun 9, 2018 10:39 UTC (Sat)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link]
That would only be an actual issue if the FSF was (a) headquartered outside the USA and (b) receiving funds from the US government for its family-planning or other medical work. Since neither of these premises apply, the “global gag rule” has no bearing on the glibc manual.
Posted May 8, 2018 13:56 UTC (Tue)
by lordcheeto (guest, #124253)
[Link] (8 responses)
This is a good thing.
Posted May 8, 2018 18:36 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 18:54 UTC (Tue)
by sfeam (subscriber, #2841)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 20:17 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 20:18 UTC (Tue)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 20:50 UTC (Tue)
by spacemachine (guest, #124210)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted May 8, 2018 21:14 UTC (Tue)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (2 responses)
"Number of comments" is not necessarily a problem, but large numbers of repetitive comments can only drown out the signal in the conversation overall.
Calling supporters of this change "malicious" is also heading into personal attack territory, which is not something we want here.
You are not unique in any of the above, but you stood out enough to make you an obvious intervention point when I wanted to calm things down in general. I appreciate your willingness to respect that request.
(Incidentally, I almost didn't write this article at all out of fear for what the comment stream could be. It has not come even close to what we had imagined; for that we are grateful to everybody involved.)
Posted May 8, 2018 22:19 UTC (Tue)
by andresfreund (subscriber, #69562)
[Link]
I think that's a complicating factor. But I still appreciate the article. Sometimes I wonder if this kind of article couldn't stand having comments disabled. Or at least rate-limited to one an hour or such.
Posted Nov 8, 2018 17:03 UTC (Thu)
by deepfire (guest, #26138)
[Link]
There are people who abhor the increasing influence that political correctness has on the freedom of expression, and so are extremely sensitive on any infringement -- in a way that is not entirely dissymmetric with how the people representing the political correctness side feel.
This is a profound issue, there is no mistake. And while I appreciate that formally the topic of the article is elsewhere, I'm sure we'll be back to discuss it again and again. I don't think it's really useful to try fighting the wind in this case..
That said, this is your forum, Jonathan, and I appreciate all the work you have put into it over the years!
Posted May 11, 2018 14:53 UTC (Fri)
by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989)
[Link]
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
but, I been consulting man pages for years, on myny different boxes and distro. I've never seen the 'joke' before
and it still not visible in any 'man abort' I've just ran on a few varied boxes.
Who controls glibc?
I've never seen the 'joke' before
and it still not visible in any 'man abort' I've just ran on a few varied boxes.
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
There are hundreds of open bugs on bugzilla, but they are ignored in favor of these pseudo productive patches. This is the future of glibc.
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Re-counterpoint: unfounded assumption.
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Show me *one* cases where this joke has that effect. Because if you can't, you're just making shit up
So what about the people who are disgusted by this sort of SJW drama? Because I know I am. But you know what? I'd still contribute to glibc if I were interested, despite this nonsense. That's because I'm a grownup.
OK, only warning. You've had three postings to insult others, you need to stop here, please.
That's enough
What are you even talking about?
Who controls glibc?
> If you *knew* that saying that was likely to trigger that response in me it still wouldn't be offensive, but it would be inconsiderate.
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
So you're saying that telling these people (in a humorous form) that they *should* have the right to get an abortion (and hence, implicitly, that it was wrong of other people to shame them for it) is also somehow offensive? What kind of logic is that?!
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
I disagree with that notion. I don't see anything wrong with having a joke in a technical manual.
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
This isn't really about the joke anymore. It was removed because a patch was submitted, there were no technical grounds to object to it being applied, and a consensus was reached in accordance with the rules of the community. While there was a comment on the joke from RMS saying not to remove it, the community should not be subject to his iron deference, has been maintained without his input, and this was not in the official Invariant Sections. He is welcome to his opinion, and is on the mailing list should he wish to express it. He did not, no one else did (I'm not counting this joke), and it was removed after 2 days of clear affirmations supporting the patch removing the joke.
Who controls glibc?
This is about RMS pulling rank after the fact, and Alexandre Oliva ignoring the community principles in reverting it. Specifically, "Cases likely to need more review and a longer period before pushing a commit include: changes that have previously been controversial."
The removal was not controversial—no one objected, and AFAIK, this has no historical (much less recent) controversy surrounding it. It had clearly become controversial by the point the reversion was made by Alexandre.
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
So at this point we understand well that you think little of the glibc project and you are not impressed with the patch. Could I ask that this stuff come to an end at this point? I don't see much value in arguing it further.
It's time to stop
It's time to stop
It's time to stop
It's time to stop
It's time to stop
It's time to stop
It's time to stop
It's time to stop
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
Now you've gone off the deep end. Every sentence in your last post is untrue (well, except for the "not a typo"). But you know what? It doesn't matter. The issue remains not the fate of a stupid joke but the question of whether RMS does or does not have veto authority over a decision made by the development team. Whether this issue was exposed unintentionally or through deliberate provocation, it's now out in the open.
Who controls glibc?
Who controls glibc?
I'll repeat: we get it. We know how you feel about all of this. Now would be a good time to stop posting these, please.
Request #2
Request #2
It is my wish for everybody to stop this particular back-and-forth, not just you. But, of the 111 comments on this article (as of this writing) 22 — a full 20% — were written by you. That suggests that you're the one driving this particular cycle; if you stop, I suspect that most others will as well. Though somebody will inevitably respond to one of your comments; I hope you'll be able to let that slide.
Request #2
Request #2
Request #2
Who controls glibc?
I also support and defend the right for jokes I find tasteless to exist and clutter manuals.
Wretched taste is the a key defense against Politically Correct totalitarianism.