SFLC Files Bizarre Legal Action Against Its Former Client, Software Freedom Conservancy (Conservancy Blog)
Registrant's SOFTWARE FREEDOM CONSERVANCY Mark is confusingly similar to Petitioner's SOFTWARE FREEDOM LAW CENTER Mark." On November 2, SFC filed a response that lists the defenses it plans to use. From the blog post: "
We are surprised and sad that our former attorneys, who kindly helped our organization start in our earliest days and later excitedly endorsed us when we moved from a volunteer organization to a staffed one, would seek to invalidate our trademark. Conservancy and SFLC are very different organizations and sometimes publicly disagree about detailed policy issues. Yet, both non-profits are charities organized to promote the public's interest. Thus, we are especially disappointed that SFLC would waste the precious resources of both organizations in this frivolous action."
Posted Nov 3, 2017 17:34 UTC (Fri)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (98 responses)
One way or the other, they've just made it solidly unambiguous what the difference between the companies is.
Posted Nov 3, 2017 17:41 UTC (Fri)
by branden (guest, #7029)
[Link] (82 responses)
...the Linux Foundation?
Posted Nov 3, 2017 21:42 UTC (Fri)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (41 responses)
Posted Nov 3, 2017 23:38 UTC (Fri)
by branden (guest, #7029)
[Link] (26 responses)
If someone did some journalism along these lines, that would be fantastic.
Two lines of questioning to pursue:
1) Cui bono?
Posted Nov 4, 2017 7:14 UTC (Sat)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (25 responses)
I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see it.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 14:46 UTC (Sat)
by branden (guest, #7029)
[Link] (6 responses)
I see no way in which the LF benefits from a naming dispute between these two operations. If the Linux Foundation is uncomfortable anyone doing GPL enforcement independently of them, then if the SFC and SFLC render themselves inert, whether it's by hemorrhaging money to legal fees or simply loss of face and gravitas, how does LF not benefit? And as for the enforcement statement...remember that this statement was originally put together by the LF TAB, with help from the LF lawyers, and was put out with the LF's full support. Why would the LF somehow get the SFLC to do this weird thing if the SFC comes out in favor of it too? My understanding is that the enforcement statement originated outside the LF. If it couldn't be stopped, then the politic thing to do is to be seen as part of the team putting it in place. What would the alternative have been? To openly scold Linux kernel hackers for adopting it? That's not how one cultivates a reputation as an unquestionable authority. Once the train's left the station, you make sure you're on it. And if you don't like where it's going, you decouple the locomotive from the passenger cars afterward.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 21:33 UTC (Sat)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (3 responses)
I have talked at length with many people at the Linux Foundation about GPL enforcement. I wish the LF would take a more active role there, but they don't see active enforcement as part of their mission. They do put a lot of resources into educating companies on what it means to be in compliance and how to get there. They have put resources into fixing up licensing issues in the kernel's code base. The hostility to the GPL that some people attribute to the LF is not something I have observed in practice.
The enforcement statement has my name on it. I was there from the beginning, and through the entire process of its development. I know where it came from. If your information sources say that the LF was somehow opposed to it, or was not involved since the beginning, you may wish to re-evaluate the trustworthiness of your sources.
The LF is far from perfect, there are some aspects to it that worry me, and many things that I would change. But I honestly think that this is off-the-rails conspiracy theory stuff. A simpler and more realistic explanation can be had, I think, by looking at the history of the two groups involved without introducing evil external masterminds.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 23:16 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link] (1 responses)
I don't think it has anything to do with the enforcement statement, but it does have something to do with VMware.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 2:34 UTC (Sun)
by metasequoia (guest, #119065)
[Link]
I feel it's on a collision course with free software. Its a binding international agreement and it deserves to be far better known because it changes everything in ways most people disagree with intuitively. For example, its behind what amounts to a existential threat to the provision of public higher education, health care, water, etc. unless 'supplied in the exercise of governmental authority".
A service supplied in the exercise of governmental authority" is limited to only "any service which is "supplied neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition with one or more service suppliers".
That widely used definition seems to me to directly conflict with FOSS. The GATS also contains both ratchet and standstill mechanisms which are legally binding equivalents of a noose around public services necks. Although I have no knowledge of same, not only wouldn't I be surprised if it was behind a great deal of otherwise inexplicable policy impinging on FOSS. I would be surprised if it wasn't.
Its clearly an attack on governments provision or encouragement of anything for free or below market cost (unless its 'minimally trade restrictive') that is elsewhere sold in a country. Its been kept out of the media for a reason and few people know of it, let alone understand it for that reason. Therefore, its and similar agreements that are related to it, all of their legitimacy is very questionable, especially in this area of essential services. Because they basically amount to deals behind closed doors to roll back much of the progress humanity had made in the latter part of the twentieth century, by stealth. Nothing less. And, its working.
For example, its arguably why both both healthcare and financial services regulation are broken in the US. For a number of reasons, including its one line citation in a document submitted to the WTO in February 1998 as the reason the US had to 'reform' the Depression era Glass-Steagall Act, GATS was behind the 2008 financial disaster.
The radical ideology in 'GATS' is now being extended by the Trade in Services Agreement (TiSA) which was also the creation of a powerful lobby of US and EU corporations. They include companies like Google, Facebook, and so on. To understand their "TiSA" which seeks to lower the costs of labor globally and lock in ever increasing levels of deregulation and privatization, similarly to GATS, and penalize countries which regulate in the public interest financially, one very much has to understand its predecessor, particularly its intentionally vague Article I which defines its scope, which is very broad. I think that this web of back room deals fighting the concept of a public good globally is in conflict with FOSS 'on principle'. And to anybody with any foresight, its principles are very scary ones.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 23:40 UTC (Sat)
by branden (guest, #7029)
[Link]
It is perfectly possible for there to be unhappy history between SFC and SFLC principals, _and_ people at the LF who'd like to see one or both organizations (1) go away or (2) come to heel.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 9:44 UTC (Mon)
by glikely (subscriber, #39601)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 6, 2017 13:21 UTC (Mon)
by branden (guest, #7029)
[Link]
Posted Nov 4, 2017 18:53 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link] (17 responses)
It's a years-long sequence of events related to the VMware lawsuit. 2015: VMware suit filed in Germany and funded by SFC. LF retaliates by pulling funding of SFC. SFC responds with a fund drive and new supporters. Early 2016: Karen Sandler merely states she might run for the Linux Foundation community board representative position. LF board meets in a panic and does away with the current community representative and the position. Later 2016: Eben Moglen, president of SFLC, lobbies against GPL enforcement at LF events and elsewhere. FSF fires Moglen, who has been their general counsel for, oh, I think about 40 years. Richard and friends are reported to be heartbroken. 2017: SFLC files to take SFC's name.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 3:14 UTC (Sun)
by pr1268 (guest, #24648)
[Link] (2 responses)
This has to be one of the saddest posts I've read here on LWN... And to think that VMWare is at the heart of it all. Just what kind of wildly-addictive narcotic is VMWare, anyway, to persuade Moglen, Kuhn, SFLC, LF, et al over to the Dark Side™? Why not just come into compliance with the GPL (or whatever the 2015 suit demands) instead of dragging everyone into a (dare I say it) another SCOshow?
Posted Nov 5, 2017 3:24 UTC (Sun)
by jra (subscriber, #55261)
[Link] (1 responses)
Bradly is the President of the Software Freedom Conservancy, who is the defendant in this case, not the aggressor. He is not associated with the other organizations you mention.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 8:57 UTC (Sun)
by pr1268 (guest, #24648)
[Link]
Yes, I did mean Bradley Kuhn. And yes, that is an error. My apologies to LWN readers, and especially to Mr. Kuhn. Others' comments notwithstanding, whether this whole episode has its roots with the VMware suit *or* GPL enforcement "style", it has the potential to drive a large wedge in the Linux/FLOSS community. I, personally, would hate to see that happen.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 7:41 UTC (Sun)
by gregkh (subscriber, #8)
[Link] (10 responses)
As proof of just one thing wrong here, it was _I_ that requested the LF to stop funding the SFC based on the long email conversation that happened in 2016 about Linux kernel GPL enforcement "style", in public, for the whole world to see. It was only then that this happened, not before, and had nothing at all to do with vmware.
For your other claims here, well, I doubt that any of them are true either, as you seem to be reporting hearsay from others, which is never a trustworthy source :)
Posted Nov 5, 2017 7:59 UTC (Sun)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
- VMWare suit filed
You're a fellow of the Linux Foundation.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 14:07 UTC (Sun)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link]
Posted Nov 5, 2017 16:31 UTC (Sun)
by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164)
[Link]
As I'm sure you agree this lawsuit seems quite insane, perhaps you can propose internally in the LF to make a statement threathening to withdraw funding from the SFLC if it doesn't stop wasting its resources on what could be little more than a personal vendetta? Makes both the conspiracy go away and might encourage the SFLC to think of more constructive ways to deal with any conflicts they might have with the SFC... At least it might encourage them to give some more public explanation behind the reasons for their actions. Justifying the use of their resources as well as those of the (sponsors of the) SFC would be very nice. Downey proposes it has to do with the new service the SFLC wants to offer, similar to what the SFC provides.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 1:51 UTC (Mon)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link] (5 responses)
Greg, Well, I don't think you meant to, but you just admitted to LF pulling funds over SFC's participation in enforcement. Pray tell, if VMware wasn't the enforcement which was at least implied in the discussion, which was it? I know the Busybox cases were over by then. I also want to know what part of their "style" is a problem? I have helped attorneys for GPL violators negotiate with SFC. They never asked any of my customers for any significant money, and walked away from one enforcement when they were convinced the violator was serious about coming into compliance, without even waiting for the violator to get done. If someone's going to enforce on your company, there was never a nicer enforcer than SFC.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 16:35 UTC (Mon)
by gregkh (subscriber, #8)
[Link] (4 responses)
That's not what I said at all, nor is what happened, please go read my statement again, and the huge email thread where this all happened, in public, over a year ago. Why is this a surprise to anyone? Everyone involved knows what happened and was ok with it.
The fact that you were making stuff up, when this is all public record already, is what I was correcting in your previous statements.
And this is way off-topic for this thread now, sorry for the noise to everyone else, I'll stop responding now as this is just digging up old history for no good reason other than people seem to love a nice fight and making up crazy conspiracy theories when it comes to other people and organizations.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 16:55 UTC (Mon)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link] (2 responses)
Your timeline is off, cf. this helpful LWN link which puts the date of LF ending support for SFC to 2015, with SFC clearly thinking there's a causative link between the VMWare lawsuit the LF decision to cut off SFC. One would think that when you make harsh statements about other people making stuff up, you'd at least use some care when providing your version of reality.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 17:14 UTC (Mon)
by gregkh (subscriber, #8)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 6, 2017 20:46 UTC (Mon)
by JWatZ (guest, #114023)
[Link]
It had left the page as of the June 15, 2015 version: https://web.archive.org/web/20150615134453/http://sfconse...
It has remained on the page since Jan 18, 2016, up to the current time: http://web.archive.org/web/20171106204447/https://sfconse...
Which does seem ... confusing ... considering the multiple people claiming the LF doesn't support SFC any more... This does not seem to be supported, at least not by this page.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 17:39 UTC (Mon)
by spaetz (guest, #32870)
[Link]
Ahem, the SFC sued the SFC now, so learning about the causes and reasons is very much of relevance, IMHO. And it is not like 2016 was ages ago. I hate fights between stakeholders and proponents of floss and would love to see the put to rest. Learning about what ongoing law suits be about is a necessary evil, though.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 17:29 UTC (Mon)
by spaetz (guest, #32870)
[Link]
Dear Greg, calling Bruce Perens random people is strong. You might like him or not, but he is not random and his oldishbaccount here shows it is really him, not some impersonator.
As for you asking to revoke funding for the SFC, Bruce translation of "LF retaliates by pulling funding of SFC." seems pretty much correct even after reading your reply.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 7:05 UTC (Mon)
by if.gnu.linux (guest, #88877)
[Link] (2 responses)
As end user of a GNU/Linux distribution, I am glad that there are people like Bradley Khun in our community.
[1] https://lwn.net/Articles/705416/
P.S.: My native language is not English.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 22:39 UTC (Mon)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
Which reminds me, good time to go donate to SFC.
Posted Nov 10, 2017 18:51 UTC (Fri)
by lsl (subscriber, #86508)
[Link]
Posted Nov 3, 2017 23:38 UTC (Fri)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link] (7 responses)
While you are looking into this, look into:
Why is Eben Moglen no longer listed as counsel for, or affiliated in any way with, the Free Software Foundation? He certainly had a long history with them.
Why is Bradley Kuhn not ever accepted as a speaker at Linux Foundation events? He does submit papers regularly.
Posted Nov 3, 2017 23:51 UTC (Fri)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link]
Posted Nov 4, 2017 19:05 UTC (Sat)
by dd9jn (✭ supporter ✭, #4459)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Nov 4, 2017 19:15 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Nov 6, 2017 17:07 UTC (Mon)
by dd9jn (✭ supporter ✭, #4459)
[Link] (1 responses)
There is a lot of GPL "enforcement" going on in Europe. It is just that almost always this does not go public and is solved in a favorite way for the violator AND the free software community.
Posted Nov 7, 2017 3:05 UTC (Tue)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link]
Posted Nov 6, 2017 0:13 UTC (Mon)
by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 6, 2017 2:00 UTC (Mon)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link]
Start by reading this. Eben makes some mistakes I would not expect of him. The organizations he cites as rejecting GPL in granting research funding are arguably not doing it because the GPL is scary. I think they are doing it because they are publicly funded, and the GPL is not necessarily the best license to grant maximal utility in a publicly funded project to all of the people, including the proprietary software manufacturers who presumably pay taxes like everyone else (acknowledging arguments that Microsoft hasn't had any Federal income tax bill in some years). The BSD license was created specifically for that purpose. Second, why does it worry Eben now that the GPL is scary? Hasn't it been an uphill fight all of the way?
Posted Nov 4, 2017 18:56 UTC (Sat)
by mdolan (subscriber, #104340)
[Link] (4 responses)
Worse it ultimately makes rationale people less inclined to engage at all for fear of being the next target.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 19:36 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link]
Mike, I am sorry that you are frustrated, but I have a right to my own speech as much as you do. Also, I have been following this situation for years, and nothing I've written has been "speculative". It would be better if you would participate by honestly explaining your side in the events I've mentioned. I am sorry to have to say that I suspect you will not be allowed to participate in the discussion that way. In that case, please refrain from accusations that we're fomenting conspiracy theories. We have sufficient facts.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 23:40 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
If you want to make it seem like the conspiracy theories have substance, this is just how to go about it.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 7:05 UTC (Sun)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
Posted Nov 5, 2017 18:38 UTC (Sun)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
Fortunately, there's a really simple and easy solution to it! The LF can just have a representative come out and make an official statement in plain words, “we have nothing to do with this frivolous legal action nor do we support it”. Honesty and transparency costs nothing.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 19:12 UTC (Sat)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
I'm half hoping the real story will be something along the lines of “one of our new hires turned out to be clueless” and we can go back to business as usual.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 0:13 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link]
Yes. SFC are the good guys in this. SFLC appears to be out to destroy SFC on behalf of Linux Foundation. LF just doesn't like GPL enforcement. SFC continues to support the GPL and enforcement brought under the community principles. The community principles are incredibly nice to the defendants compared to what the law would have of them. I have helped companies come into compliance, and SFC asked for no significant money at the time, just their costs and compliance. They might ask for a bit more now since they don't get funding from LF as they used to, but much less than the law would give them. SFLC has the Linux foundation as their main funder. LF was the main funder of both SFLC and SFC from the start, but the character of Linux Foundation has changed over time and they stopped funding SFC years ago. These days, Linux Foundation is sort of like loggers claiming to speak on behalf of the trees. Their executive board currently includes an entity which is defendant in a GPL enforcement brought with the assistance of SFC. They quickly removed their community board position when it appeared that Karen Sandler might run for the seat, Karen being the executive director of SFC.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 18:44 UTC (Sat)
by mdolan (subscriber, #104340)
[Link] (38 responses)
It's unsettling and disturbing that you enable and encourage this nonsense to propagate here. Over time it may seem as though it's acceptable - even though I know many subscribers who think this is just a few people and their crazy talk.
I personally found out after a talk I gave at a SFLC event at Columbia Law School yesterday when the blog post came out and someone texted the link to me. I think most of us in the room found out the same way. It was also awkward to see it come out when Karen was also at the SFLC's event.
For anyone with knowledge of what has happened over the years between the people involved at the SFLC and SFC, this situation is maybe less shocking given the history between those involved and what has happened at the FSF. They are all adults and make their own decisions and are responsible for their own actions and the consequences. Blaming the LF as a boogie man for everything is ridiculous.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 19:30 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link] (1 responses)
Mike, I founded the organization you work for under the name "Linux Standard Base". I am sorry for you that you weren't informed of what was going on before you heard about it from an outside source. But it's quite fair to accuse LF of being behind this as SFLC's main funder, as an organization with VMware on its board, and since LF and SFLC have been operating an anti-GPL-enforcement campaign. It's that campaign that got Eben fired from FSF. I don't think you can claim to have learned of the situation yesterday. This has been going on since the start of the VMware lawsuit. The trademark dispute is just the latest escalation. It was inevitable that an organization with a pay-for-say board would eventually turn against the community. It's doubly ironic that LF failed to learn the lessons of the consortia that Open Source defeated.
Posted Nov 8, 2017 20:52 UTC (Wed)
by Guest54321 (guest, #119504)
[Link]
Posted Nov 4, 2017 21:25 UTC (Sat)
by oldtomas (guest, #72579)
[Link] (30 responses)
From appeals to the editor ("that you enable and encourage this nonsense") to unfounded disparaging of arguments ("conspiracy theories"), but yet, not much of substance.
And for me, it'll take quite a bit of substance to put in question what Bruce et al put forward. Much more so given their reputation.
Hoping for more, to have a constructive discussion.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 22:15 UTC (Sat)
by armijn (subscriber, #3653)
[Link] (29 responses)
Posted Nov 4, 2017 22:26 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link] (28 responses)
Oh come on. This is not a private dispute between two companies about similar trademarks. It's an organization that legally represents a large number of Open Source projects and holds their assets, and that organization is under attack by an entity funded by Linux Foundation. Obviously, I've contributed my own work to at least two of the member organizations and have a right to know. Moreover, it's a matter of public interest since SFC is holding on to software that thousands of people have contributed to and millions use.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 22:35 UTC (Sat)
by armijn (subscriber, #3653)
[Link] (27 responses)
Posted Nov 4, 2017 22:51 UTC (Sat)
by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935)
[Link] (2 responses)
Even without subscribing to any theory, I cannot help wondering if they may be right this time.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 7:12 UTC (Sun)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (1 responses)
One has to wonder if "tie the SFC up and drain their time and resources with frivolous legal side-shows" is the goal of the SFLC and their backers.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 9:03 UTC (Mon)
by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935)
[Link]
Posted Nov 4, 2017 23:16 UTC (Sat)
by rahvin (guest, #16953)
[Link] (22 responses)
I'm with everyone else, this is VmWare and people at LF attacking SFC for GPL enforcement. I don't think anyone will be convinced otherwise without some good evidence to the contrary. This is dirty, it's slimy and it reeks of the worst of corporate law tactics.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 23:24 UTC (Sat)
by armijn (subscriber, #3653)
[Link] (21 responses)
Posted Nov 4, 2017 23:32 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link] (20 responses)
Posted Nov 4, 2017 23:42 UTC (Sat)
by armijn (subscriber, #3653)
[Link] (19 responses)
Posted Nov 5, 2017 1:48 UTC (Sun)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Nov 5, 2017 9:16 UTC (Sun)
by armijn (subscriber, #3653)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 5, 2017 16:14 UTC (Sun)
by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164)
[Link]
I do think it is sane to wonder where this ridiculous trademark lawsuit comes from - taking it at face value seems indeed very naive given the relationship between SFLC and SFC as described by others here. Blaming the largest (?) sponsor of SFLC and bringing in the alleged dislike of the LF for GPL enforcement is a little far fetched, I agree, but I don't see an alternative theory being proposed. If you have any, I'd love to hear it. For sure, until then, my sympathies are with the SFC - I don't see them doing any bad work (feel free to correct me on that) and having them being attacked by a supposedly pro-Free-Software organization which certainly has better ways to use its funds is a little enraging. I sure feel strongly motivated to donate to the SFC right now and the SFLC won't get any of my symphaty or support any time soon unless the SFLC can explain itself. Neither will the LF unless it, as a major sponsor of the SFLC, speaks up against this nonsense. Meanwhile mdolan came with a bit of an alternative explanation. Reading between his sarcasm he considers it a personal feud between Bradley and Eben (which I could blieve). If THAT would be the reason for this lawsuit I find it incredibly sad that the other people at the SFLC allow Eben to waste the resources of their organization as part of a conflict between two individuals. I could believe it, based on what I've heard and read, but again - wow. SAD.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 16:00 UTC (Sun)
by mdolan (subscriber, #104340)
[Link] (15 responses)
Posted Nov 5, 2017 16:20 UTC (Sun)
by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164)
[Link]
So you're saying the SFLC team is allowing Eben to mis-appropriate the resources of their organization, wasting them on a insane fight with the SFC/Bradley due to the personal feud between the two. Well, it is the first alternative theory I've seen here and knowing a little of the history between the two (seriously, just a little, based on hearsay) it makes some sense. Seems like a lawyer move, too, taking something that (to me) seems barely relevant or real and using it as a stick to hit another organization. But wow, how vindictive and angry must one be to go on such a kamikaze-crusade, abusing the resources of a charitable organization this way... Wow. And you'd have to be a good talker to get others to go along with it. I'd still would love to see the LF step up, as major sponsor of the SFLC, and threathen to withdraw funding if they don't stop this idiocy. Now THAT would be a good move to make, perhaps publicly? It would certainly help the conspiracy theories a lot.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 17:21 UTC (Sun)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (4 responses)
This is not even close to what happened.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 21:02 UTC (Sun)
by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Nov 5, 2017 21:26 UTC (Sun)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link]
Posted Nov 6, 2017 2:28 UTC (Mon)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link]
Bradley can't defend himself, as it's normal legal hygiene not to talk about a case in progress. So, I'll just say what I know about him. Bradley had to bring the Busybox lawsuits without involving me, as Erik Andersen and Rob Landley expressed a preference not to have me represented. The minute Bradley was no longer representing them, he called me up and apologized. That's what he's like. A very nice guy with a very strong ethical sense who always wants to do the right thing, even if it takes years. I also once asked Bradley to continue to be involved in the Free Software movement when he had the option to take a job that would pay a tremendous lot more than he made then and probably makes today - and that money would have made a big difference for his family. He turned down the money and stayed involved in Free Software. This is just not a person who does things out of spite.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 21:01 UTC (Sun)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link]
Posted Nov 6, 2017 0:19 UTC (Mon)
by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955)
[Link]
He just seems to have a funny way of promoting it lately.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 2:20 UTC (Mon)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link]
Mike, You haven't any idea of what sort of relationship Eben and I have had, and you were in Junior High when Eben and I first interacted.
Posted Nov 8, 2017 19:28 UTC (Wed)
by mdolan (subscriber, #104340)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2017 19:47 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Nov 8, 2017 20:14 UTC (Wed)
by mdolan (subscriber, #104340)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Nov 9, 2017 6:37 UTC (Thu)
by MarkVandenBorre (subscriber, #26071)
[Link] (1 responses)
Also, a somewhat off topic observation. You made an effort to correct your previous unaccurate statement. On the web. A very rare thing to happen. A powerful sign of integrity, and courageous. Can't have been easy. I wish we would see people own their mistakes more often, like you just did...
Posted Nov 9, 2017 11:29 UTC (Thu)
by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164)
[Link]
While we all know it is wrong to reply out of frustration (I make that mistake still often enough), it isn't always bad to show your true feelings. In this case, I think it brought some counterweight to the theory that this was the LF being behind this. While not all facts might be entirely like you described (such personal and social things being always to some degree in the eyes of the beholder anyhow), I did hear also from others that the personal relation between Bradley and Kuhn was a major factor in this.
Seeing the reply from the SFLC, which was entirely void of any reasoning behind their attack (yes, despite the weasel words it is still an attack), it does feel more personal.
I'm baffled that the SFLC didn't bring any reasons for this, by the way. They talk about having 'issues' to 'resolve' and discuss with the SFC. I can entirely believe that, but what I don't believe is that in 3 years they didn't manage to talk. As they themselves, said, Karen was at the SFLC event - must be possible to talk to her, there, right? I know her well enough to be certain that that is possible.
Add to that the fact that the issues they wanted to discuss are still entirely unclear (I doubt it is trademark, but if it is - wow) and I'm still quite looking forward do any statement from the SFLC that doesn't make them look worse.
Posted Nov 9, 2017 13:38 UTC (Thu)
by johnsu01 (subscriber, #34757)
[Link]
Posted Nov 4, 2017 23:18 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link]
Posted Nov 5, 2017 16:30 UTC (Sun)
by bkuhn (subscriber, #58642)
[Link] (4 responses)
Everything Conservancy is ready to say about the actual details of
this matter is contained in the statement on our blog from Friday,
which is referenced in the main story above. However, I will comment on one meta-issue. We at Conservancy have seen no
evidence that Linux Foundation is involved with SFLC in this legal action.
Posted Nov 5, 2017 19:32 UTC (Sun)
by mdolan (subscriber, #104340)
[Link]
Posted Nov 5, 2017 20:03 UTC (Sun)
by branden (guest, #7029)
[Link]
My hope is that we will soon read a statement from LF encouraging a rapid (and zero-monetary-cost) détente between SFLC and SFC with a tone that doesn't encourage visualizations of an Oxford-shirted spokesman reclining in his Herman Miller Aeron chair, with a headset mic at his lips, feet up on the desk, and fingers tented.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 9:56 UTC (Mon)
by glikely (subscriber, #39601)
[Link]
Posted Nov 8, 2017 0:01 UTC (Wed)
by JanC_ (guest, #34940)
[Link]
Which leaves the question open: did you see or hear evidence that one or more of the LF's corporate members were involved?
Posted Nov 3, 2017 18:32 UTC (Fri)
by downey (subscriber, #117086)
[Link]
- Conservancy's latest tax filings, from FY2015, indicate 73.3% of financial support from public sources. [1]
- SFLC's 2016 filings indicate only 21.2% [2]. "For the year ended January 31, 2016, approximately 72% of support was received from four donors, the largest of which represented 27% of the total." [2]
[1] https://sfconservancy.org/docs/conservancy_Form-990_fy-20...
Posted Nov 3, 2017 19:34 UTC (Fri)
by suckfish (guest, #69919)
[Link] (13 responses)
IANAL but I understand that trademarks owners are in a "defend it or lose it" situation - if they are not reasonably aggressive against potential infringements, then there is a risk the lack of distinctiveness will end up with the trademark no longer being valid.
Despite "bizarre" in the title of the article, this seems perfectly normal behavior on the part of a trademark owner.
Posted Nov 3, 2017 19:39 UTC (Fri)
by yodermk (subscriber, #3803)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Nov 4, 2017 12:32 UTC (Sat)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (4 responses)
Surely if there's a real problem here, the two parties could go to court mutually and ask a Judge to resolve the issue? Unless that IS what is happening here, and the court filings don't make that clear, but it does come over that it isn't.
Cheers,
Posted Nov 4, 2017 16:49 UTC (Sat)
by jbicha (subscriber, #75043)
[Link] (2 responses)
I am not a lawyer, but you may be thinking of estoppel.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 16:53 UTC (Sat)
by jbicha (subscriber, #75043)
[Link]
Oops, I meant to reply to atai's comment
Posted Nov 4, 2017 19:53 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link]
Yes, that is right. But also the fact that SFLC had a relationship with SFC as their legal counsel and filed that very mark for them. There is no way that SFLC would look professional after doing that. How could any subsequent organization accept them as legal counsel, knowing that they had done that to a previous client?
Posted Nov 11, 2017 5:40 UTC (Sat)
by happylemur (subscriber, #95669)
[Link]
You are probably thinking of filing a suit for declaratory judgment. Non-lawyer here, but my understanding is that you can only use this if there is a clear and overt threat of a lawsuit being filed against you. Just a possibility or suspicion is not enough.
Posted Nov 3, 2017 21:08 UTC (Fri)
by JanC_ (guest, #34940)
[Link] (5 responses)
If they really wanted to defend their trademark, they could easily have done so before Software Freedom Conservancy even existed.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 6:43 UTC (Sat)
by atai (subscriber, #10977)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Nov 4, 2017 21:09 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Nov 4, 2017 21:14 UTC (Sat)
by atai (subscriber, #10977)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 4, 2017 22:30 UTC (Sat)
by BrucePerens (guest, #2510)
[Link]
Well, take a look at SFC's reply listing their defenses. Unclean hands is listed right after the usual "does not state a claim". So, they feel that they can show that SFLC acted unethically in the matter. And since SFLC was their counsel, this might be easy to prove. How the heck can SFLC and Eben expect anyone to trust their law firm after this? They can only do something like this to a client once, and IMO they ended their own firm by doing so.
Posted Nov 8, 2017 0:21 UTC (Wed)
by JanC_ (guest, #34940)
[Link]
Assuming they didn't expect the SFC, once they existed, to twiddle their thumbs and do nothing, they should have known SFC would use the Software Freedom Conservancy trademark from that point on, and suddenly acting all surprised several years later is totally dishonest.
(Remember trademarks don't have to be registered; just using them already gives you protection. It's just that after registering a trademark you don't have to prove that you own & use the trademark, and the burden is on the other side to prove that either they used it before or that you abandoned it.)
To me it's looking more & more as if SFLC is trying to "steal" SFC's respected trademark so that they can set up a similar "business" and lure in "customers" who think the "new" SFC is the old one… (Let's hope that's not true.)
Posted Nov 3, 2017 21:55 UTC (Fri)
by curcuru (guest, #119436)
[Link]
The only ways you lose a registered trademark is if someone else complains and gets the USPTO to cancel or delete it (or, by neglecting to file renewal paperwork). Of course, if they can show at that point that you've regularly failed to police potential infringers, it's much easier for them to cancel your registration.
This is absolutely not normal behavior for anyone responsibly involved in major open source communities. The first answer for complaining about a trademark infringement is never to send the lawyers - it's ALWAYS to talk privately with the other party first.
What I would have expected here is a privately negotiated consent agreement, where both parties explicitly tell the USPTO that they are happy to co-exist. That preserves both side's rights without conflict, and still allows either of them to police against other infringers.
The funding research elsethread is interesting, and worth pursuing, although I don't think there's a simple answer like that here.
Posted Nov 3, 2017 19:37 UTC (Fri)
by david.a.wheeler (subscriber, #72896)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Nov 3, 2017 20:21 UTC (Fri)
by mjw (subscriber, #16740)
[Link] (8 responses)
I have no idea how these kind of issues are handled by the US Patent and Trademark Office. But wouldn't it make sense if they started by just getting these people together in a room and make them first talk to each other? I am surprised that a good faith attempt to clear up any confusion or differences before filing an official legal complaint isn't a requirement in these kind of cases.
Posted Nov 3, 2017 20:46 UTC (Fri)
by downey (subscriber, #117086)
[Link] (5 responses)
Apparently the trademark wasn't confusing back then when SFLC created it, but now that they want to compete for services "post-spinoff", they have buyers' remorse?
Way to stay classy.
[1] https://www.softwarefreedom.org/news/2006/apr/03/conserva...
Posted Nov 3, 2017 20:53 UTC (Fri)
by andrewsh (subscriber, #71043)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Nov 3, 2017 21:03 UTC (Fri)
by downey (subscriber, #117086)
[Link] (3 responses)
SFLC "established" Conservancy (with that trademark as its name & domain name) per their announcement back in the day. Now that Conservancy is independent, more respected, and better-known as an independent entity, AND they apparently want to "compete" (per the https://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/2017/sep/21/new-era-... announcement) ... they want their name back.
Not cool.
Posted Nov 3, 2017 21:27 UTC (Fri)
by mjw (subscriber, #16740)
[Link] (2 responses)
O. I missed that. Now at least it makes sense they filed that petition a day later on September 22.
But even then, that is a completely different kind of service than what the conservancy offers.
But this all makes it even more weird that the SFLC apparently didn't talk to Conservancy. Conservancy explicitly helps projects that outgrow the conservancy to transfer their assets to their own independent organization. So this looks like a great potential synergy between the SFLC and Conservancy. One can help projects with different services where the other is unable to, or the reverse. So maybe this can still be solved by a friendly phone call.
I do still wonder what the official (legal) process is here. It must be obvious that there was no good faith discussion, or someone didn't really think this through, before the petition was filed. Isn't that something that really should have happened first?
Posted Nov 3, 2017 21:32 UTC (Fri)
by downey (subscriber, #117086)
[Link]
Sort of, but read the blog post:
> "But our experience in building “collaboration organizations” such as the Free Software Support Network—non-profits that exist to help other non-profits perform tasks like fiscal administration, tax filings, etc.—means that we can help these fledgling non-profits administer their affairs appropriately and meet all their legal and regulatory compliance obligations inexpensively, by providing those services semi-centrally, in collaborator-organizations that enjoy economies of scale, but do not limit the governmental independence of the non-profits with which they work." -- https://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/2017/sep/21/new-era-...
To me at least, it seems pretty clear they're trying to drum up business for SFLC+FSSN, which perhaps (?) has only Dispora* on their rosters. http://www.freesoftwaresupport.org/about.html
Posted Nov 3, 2017 22:06 UTC (Fri)
by curcuru (guest, #119436)
[Link]
https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks-application-process/trad...
It's... weird, and they have their own processes for how entities can challenge each other's registered trademarks. From what I can tell reading trademark law blogs, it's a very different kind of court system than most people expect.
Separately: yes, the SFLC's announcement of turnkey free software non-profit creation is likely the big issue. Competing with the Linux Foundation, but for free software / community-led projects?
Posted Nov 4, 2017 5:09 UTC (Sat)
by alison (subscriber, #63752)
[Link] (1 responses)
They once had similar goals. Now, perhaps not so much. That is the point. The particular action here is a sideshow.
mdolan of Linux Foundation, since you have not apparently had an opportunity to respond to my email, perhaps you might respond to Bruce Perens' remarks here.
Posted Nov 4, 2017 12:38 UTC (Sat)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Cheers,
Posted Nov 6, 2017 20:51 UTC (Mon)
by curcuru (guest, #119436)
[Link]
https://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/2017/nov/06/conserva...
This is a mess no matter how you look at it, but the more I read, in this specific case, SFLC is overreaching and burning bridges with statements like this minimizing the issues and not addressing the real question.
Posted Nov 6, 2017 21:00 UTC (Mon)
by pyellman (guest, #4997)
[Link]
Thanks to this lawsuit and the surrounding discussion, I now have a much clearer understanding of differences between the two organizations and their respective missions. Thanks SFLC!
Posted Nov 9, 2017 8:28 UTC (Thu)
by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
[Link] (1 responses)
http://laforge.gnumonks.org/blog/20171107-sflc-sfc-lawsuit/
Posted Nov 9, 2017 14:20 UTC (Thu)
by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
[Link]
Posted Dec 12, 2017 1:17 UTC (Tue)
by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
[Link]
https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2017/dec/11/ttab-summary-j...
Posted Dec 23, 2017 0:36 UTC (Sat)
by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Dec 31, 2017 5:23 UTC (Sun)
by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
[Link]
The Frog and the Scorpion
What on earth would possess SFLC to do something like this?
The Frog and the Scorpion
If you can point to any evidence that the LF is behind this, I would be most interested in pursuing it. Does any such evidence exist?
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
2) Why now? SFC and SFLC go many months between doing _anything_ that draws LWN coverage. And then this happens ~2 weeks after https://sfconservancy.org/news/2017/oct/16/linux-kernel-e... . If I were the LF and I were unhappy with GPL enforcement, especially in the Linux kernel, exhibiting any independence of the LF, I'd want to express my displeasure with the SFC as well.
Cui bono? I see no way in which the LF benefits from a naming dispute between these two operations. And as for the enforcement statement...remember that this statement was originally put together by the LF TAB, with help from the LF lawyers, and was put out with the LF's full support. Why would the LF somehow get the SFLC to do this weird thing if the SFC comes out in favor of it too?
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
I am sorry, but this makes no sense to me.
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
A sad state of affairs, indeed
A sad state of affairs, indeed
A sad state of affairs, indeed
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
- SFC get involved
- You decry the SFC "style" of enforcing the GPL
- You get LF to pull SFC funding
Who pays your bills?
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
Date of funding stoppage
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
[2] https://lwn.net/Articles/683345/
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
the Linux Foundation was created by a merger of OSDL and the Free Standards Group. I don't recall you being one of the founders of the FSG.
You certainly aren't mentioned here: https://web.archive.org/web/20010331001205/http://www.fre...
So claiming that you founded the organization that Mike works for seems a bit misleading...
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
You seem to think that people who may have done something unethical and just plain crazy have a right to be free from accusation until after they are tried. Not so. Trials would never happen were that the case.The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
And what are you doing? What's your contribution besides suggesting, that SFC is somehow at fault here?
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
Do dig deeper.
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
there's no evidence LF is involved with this
there's no evidence LF is involved with this
there's no evidence LF is involved with this
there's no evidence LF is involved with this
there's no evidence LF is involved with this
> no evidence that Linux Foundation is involved with SFLC in this legal action.
The Frog and the Scorpion
[2] https://s3.amazonaws.com/irs-form-990/201613439349300116_...
[3] https://www.charitiesnys.com/RegistrySearch/getcontent?guid={300CAE5D-0000-CF8B-B764-964C302296E6}&orgid=21-15-53&title=Annual+Filing+for+Charitable+Organizations&project=Charities
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
Wol
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
I thought there was something - especially in US law - where you could go to the courts and ask them to rule on a material legal fact. Like if you're afraid of being sued you can ask the courts to rule and pre-empt a genuine lawsuit.
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
more of judicial estoppel
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
The Frog and the Scorpion
Huh!?
Huh!?
Huh!?
Huh!?
Huh!?
Huh!?
Assuming the SFLC somehow sees the Conservancy as competition now.
The SFLC are offering to setup a completely new independent, tax-deductible federal charity for projects.
Which is kind of the opposite of what Conservancy offers projects. Conservancy is for those projects that don't need all the headaches of an separate legal entity.
Huh!?
Huh!?
The TTAB do obliquely recommend Alternative Dispute Resolution (i.e. the parties using arbitration or something) but it's not required to file cancellations or the like.
Huh!?
Huh!?
Wol
SFLC blogs astonishing reply to Conservancy blog
SFLC Files Bizarre Legal Action Against Its Former Client, Software Freedom Conservancy (Conservancy Blog)
SFLC Files Bizarre Legal Action Against Its Former Client, Software Freedom Conservancy (Conservancy Blog)
https://blog.halon.org.uk/2017/11/software-freedom-law-ce...
SFLC Files Bizarre Legal Action Against Its Former Client, Software Freedom Conservancy (Conservancy Blog)
SFLC Files Bizarre Legal Action Against Its Former Client, Software Freedom Conservancy (Conservancy Blog)
SFLC Files Bizarre Legal Action Against Its Former Client, Software Freedom Conservancy (Conservancy Blog)
SFLC Files Bizarre Legal Action Against Its Former Client, Software Freedom Conservancy (Conservancy Blog)