|
|
Subscribe / Log in / New account

I don't get it

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 21:52 UTC (Wed) by jackb (guest, #41909)
Parent article: The dark side of open source conferences

If someone commits sexual assault or solicits prostitution then the correct answer is for the affected individual to call the police on the spot and file criminal charges, not write a code of conduct.


to post comments

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 22:01 UTC (Wed) by davide.del.vento (guest, #59196) [Link]

Yes criminal charges are a way to deal with this issue, but the "code of conduct" can be much more quick, powerful and effective, especially for international conferences, where one would have to deal with foreign laws.
Do you have an employer? If so, chances are that there is an anti-harassment policy from it. My employer does, and I am glad it does: it does not replace US laws, but it does help in keeping a nice climate on the workplace.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 22:04 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (14 responses)

The process of filing a lawsuit may be time consuming, stressful and unproductive - especially if you're in a foreign country (as many conference goers will be) and don't have any witnesses, were drinking at the time or any of the myriad of other possibilities that tend to turn these cases into "I'm sorry, we're dropping the case".

The answer isn't "Lawsuit or it didn't happen". It's "Do whatever is necessary to stop these people from behaving this way", and if a written harassment policy helps that then it's part of the solution.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 22:06 UTC (Wed) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (11 responses)

Actually I wasn't thinking lawsuits; I was thinking arrests. But I didn't consider the case of a conference in a country where those type of actions might not be illegal.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 22:09 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (9 responses)

Arrests that will involve witness statements, testimony and potentially having to turn up to court where a defence lawyer will then proceed to spend time attempting to convince people that you're a liar? I don't blame anyone who's unwilling to go through with that, and we shouldn't attempt to place the onus of fixing things on the victim.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 22:15 UTC (Wed) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (8 responses)

Putting the onus of reporting a crime on the victim of said crime is too much to ask yet demanding that the rest of society bend over backwards to bubblewrap the world isn't?

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 22:21 UTC (Wed) by chromatic (guest, #26207) [Link] (1 responses)

How is publishing a code of conduct (which basically says "Treat other people with respect!") a demand in any way, let alone an unreasonable demand? Why should the penalty for behaving badly to anyone else require filing criminal charges? (I can think of many examples of poor behavior which are not illegal.)

I don't get it

Posted Dec 3, 2010 4:50 UTC (Fri) by jzbiciak (guest, #5246) [Link]

Agreed. One would hope such a code of conduct would also be redundant/unnecessary, but clearly folks need to be reminded. Also, making it explicit sends a more positive overall message, so long as the organizers also make sure to uphold it so that it gets taken seriously.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 22:23 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't object to it being the victim's responsibility to report the crime. If they're unwilling (for whatever reason) to do so then the justice system won't be involved. That's not a problem. But when you say that "the correct answer is for the affected individual to call the police on the spot and file criminal charges", the implication is that it's the victim's problem, not the conference's. That's not a constructive way to improve things.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 16:52 UTC (Thu) by sorpigal (guest, #36106) [Link] (1 responses)

So have the victim report it to the conference organizers and have them call the cops.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 16:59 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

"I'd like to report a crime. The victim doesn't want to be involved in the case and there were no other witnesses, but we'd like you to arrest the offender anyway. Hello? Hello?"

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 22:42 UTC (Wed) by bfields (subscriber, #19510) [Link]

I would've thought that the world-bubblewrapper would be anyone objecting to (mostly relatively minor) consequences for any behavior that manages to fall short of the obviously criminal. Criminal prosecutation rightly requires a high standard of procedure, but that doesn't mean the same standard is required before you can, say, asking someone to stop being a jerk, or even to leave your meeting.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 23:00 UTC (Wed) by james_w (guest, #51167) [Link]

"demanding that the rest of society bend over backwards to bubblewrap the world"

No, just asking them not to assault or harass attendees.

If that's not a reasonable request to make then it's not a conference that I want to attend.

James

I don't get it

Posted Dec 8, 2010 8:11 UTC (Wed) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]

Writing down community standards is a useful thing!

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 8:31 UTC (Thu) by rvfh (guest, #31018) [Link]

Not necessarily a legality issue, but in some countries the police officer might not be impressed if you talk about sexual assault because someone touched your breasts or bum. A lot of paperwork for them, and they really don't care: "you're not dead, are you?"

Note: I do not agree with this attitude. I sure don't enjoy unwanted physical contact, on any part of my body.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 22:48 UTC (Wed) by mbcook (subscriber, #5517) [Link] (1 responses)

I think the idea of a "conference blacklist" of people who are known to cause these kind of troubles would be a good idea, but very hard to setup.

That said, I agree with direct action. If sexually assaulted in any way (such as gropes, grabbing and kissing, etc) then physical self defense seems like the best thing to do. After a couple of women yell "rape" really loud and punch or kick the guy harassing them it will be an immediate and unmistakable message. If police are called, all the better. I'd say call them yourself.

Of course, this won't work for simple cat calls and lewd remarks. Reporting people to the conference and seeing if it's taken seriously is the best you can do there.

Lawsuits do take a while, but you can always decide not to file. Just getting the guy a visit from the police will send a pretty strong message too.

I realize it's tough and scary to have to physically defend yourself, but short of a large scale boycott/walkout I'm not sure what else could be done (especially by an individual) to get the message across REAL fast.

(Note: I'm assuming the US or similar treatment of such sexual assaults. If the country wouldn't help or would actually go after you for defending yourself, your only choice besides status quo would be not going)

Legal/privacy issues with blacklists

Posted Dec 2, 2010 0:51 UTC (Thu) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]

Using, maintaining and/or "exporting" a common blacklist would be illegal in many countries because of privacy laws. IOW, not really an option...

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 22:14 UTC (Wed) by sez (guest, #71571) [Link] (2 responses)

I understand your view Jack but for all sorts of reasons criminal proceedings fail. Most of those reasons don't have anything to do with whether the behavior was actually criminal, or even wrong. Also it might be months before the matter is dealt with in court. And all the person is free to come and go from the conference - the police aren't going to lock a person up for a week waiting for a court appearance. What the conf does with regard to dealing with the matter here is crucial - do they fail to act, sit on their hands and say "its up to the authorities" ...? How will that look if/when the authorities fail?

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 22:17 UTC (Wed) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (1 responses)

Having someone taken away in handcuffs or even just be forced to explain themselves to the police is a pretty powerful deterrent even if prosecution fails.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 7, 2010 15:04 UTC (Tue) by sez (guest, #71571) [Link]

You've watched too many cop shows.

Investigations into matters like this involve medical examinations, and taking of statements from witnesses and the complainant.

Cowboy ideas about the offender being dramatically carted away minutes after calling the police are unrealistic in my experience.

Even if eventually the person is spoken to by police he will be released on bail, and is free to return to the conference the next day.

Unless the conference organisers do something about it.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 23:07 UTC (Wed) by PaulWay (guest, #45600) [Link]

> If someone commits sexual assault or solicits prostitution then the
> correct answer is for the affected individual to call the police on the
> spot and file criminal charges, not write a code of conduct.

Yeah, and instantly become the centre of attention, have to make embarrassing claims which you may not be able to verify, have a whole bunch of your peers ostracise you for a "minor thing", and miss a bunch of cool technical talks. Yeah, that's really going to be a popular option.

A lot of the worst behaviour isn't grabbing people's breasts or anything so obvious. It's implications, insinuations, slights, embarrassing personal comments or 'accidental' contact. It's all stuff that can be later 'denied' as 'totally innocent' or 'not meant that way'. This is worse because everyone around including the victim knows it's rude or offensive, but there's nothing that's actually actionable - and because you can either just shut up and pretend it didn't happen and get on with the conference or say something and suddenly be the centre of unwelcome attention.

Most guys I know can't really get their head around this. They think that it's all clear cut. They think that it'd be easy to just speak out. It isn't.

And the sad thing is that geeks and nerds have traditionally been picked on and bullied at school - we know how these things work. Yet, like abusive parents, some guys just carry out the same warped behaviour that tormented them, because they've implicitly realised that it makes them look better if they put someone else down.

What I learnt from my years of being bullied is that I didn't want to do that to anyone.

I wholeheartedly support any code of conduct like this and will do my best to make all conferences I attend a friendlier and equal place for everyone.

Have fun,

Paul

If its REAL, call the cops, otherwise STFU

Posted Dec 1, 2010 23:22 UTC (Wed) by brianomahoney (guest, #6206) [Link] (2 responses)

If its REAL, call the cops, otherwise STFU

If its REAL, call the cops, otherwise STFU

Posted Dec 2, 2010 1:28 UTC (Thu) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]

Yes, of course -- the only appropriate responses to disagreeable events are to call the cops or STFU.

Since you decided to comment instead of STFU, I assume you've called the cops on the poster above? Or were you more worried about being nasty than about making sense?

If its REAL, call the cops, otherwise STFU

Posted Dec 7, 2010 15:09 UTC (Tue) by sez (guest, #71571) [Link]

Cops release the guy on bail, he comes back and does it again.

Conference organisers act - eject him, deal with it, revoke his registration - no badge, no entry, no more problems.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 1, 2010 23:59 UTC (Wed) by xtifr (guest, #143) [Link] (28 responses)

A lot of people have pointed out negative issues with calling the police, but there's another factor you're ignoring here, Jack. There's a lot of behavior that falls short of "sexual assault or solicit[ing] prostitution"--behavior that is not illegal, but is <em>absolutely</em> unacceptable in civilized society. To pick a non-sexual example, using the "N" word would hardly be the basis for any sort of police involvement, but it's far beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior for many (I hope most) of us.

If a woman is left with no recourse but to call the police, then any behavior that falls short of illegal is tacitly accepted. But I don't accept it! If you can suggest something <em>besides</em> a code of conduct that would cover behavior in the range between acceptable and outright illegal, I'm all ears, but until then, I'm all in favor of Val's suggestion or something like it.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 0:07 UTC (Thu) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (7 responses)

The thing that the world is full of jerks (of both genders). You can't legislate them out of existence and when people are determined to be a jerk they'll find a way to do it no matter what kind of rules you try to apply to prevent it.

When you find yourself (no matter your gender) dealing with a jerk your options are basically as follows: ignore it, deal with it yourself or complain about it. If you reach adulthood without learning how to deal with the jerks yourself then that's really your own problem.

It would be great if that skill wasn't necessary but wishing that jerks didn't exist in the world isn't going to make it so. If people would focus more on standing up for themselves rather than appealing to authority figures they'd make a lot more progress.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 0:29 UTC (Thu) by AndreE (guest, #60148) [Link]

Ummm

No one is legislating against anything.

We are applying our right to self selection.

People are free to be jerks, and others are free to ignore them and exclude them from their community

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 2:01 UTC (Thu) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link] (3 responses)

> If people would focus more on standing up for themselves rather than appealing to authority figures they'd make a lot more progress.

Really? Because authority figures have, you know, authority. I mean, standing up for yourself is a fine thing to do, but there's a limit to what you can do as a random attendee, and I don't see how it'd be some moral failing to ask the organizers to do their damn job. If someone is harassing people, the appropriate response is to kick them out, and I can't do that, but the conference organizers can (and should). Or would you prefer, like, some sort of vigilante justice?

The fact is, in a conference setting, some people have more authority than others. So those people have to make a choice. They can use that authority to back up the jerks (e.g., by egging them on from the podium or just ignoring legitimate complaints) or to back up the non-jerks (e.g. by kicking out people who harass others and not inviting them back).

And the nature of authority is that whichever option they pick is likely to have much more of an effect on how the conference turns out than whatever I do. So in practice, telling attendees that they should stand up for themselves and stop whining means (1) you're saying that it's okay for people with authority to back up the jerks, and (2) it's the responsibility of individual (female) attendees to take on not just the jerks, but the whole conference apparatus.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 9:49 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (2 responses)

Or would you prefer, like, some sort of vigilante justice?
I cannot imagine how horrifying libertarian conferences must be (if there are enough libertarians even in the US to have conferences of any kind).

I don't get it

Posted Dec 3, 2010 14:01 UTC (Fri) by RussNelson (guest, #27730) [Link] (1 responses)

Hehe, you don't actually know any libertarians, do you? Libertarians are fine with rules ... they just want the rules to be voluntarily agreed-upon. In the case of a conference or a meeting, there are rules. Break the rules, and get the punishment ... or don't attend in the first place. THAT is how libertarians work in the real world (rather than your fantasy libertarians).

I don't get it

Posted Dec 5, 2010 1:16 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Oh, I know quite a lot of them. Every one says something different and says that the *others* are not real libertarians. You are about opinion fifty.

Adult harassment victims did nothing wrong

Posted Dec 2, 2010 2:50 UTC (Thu) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]

> If you reach adulthood without learning how to deal with the jerks
> yourself then that's really your own problem.

What you are saying is that adult victims of any kind of harassment (be it sexual harassment at open source conferences, bullying at work, war rape, ...) have to deal with it on their own, because it's their own fault?

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 4:24 UTC (Thu) by james_w (guest, #51167) [Link]

> and when people are determined to be a jerk they'll find a way to do it no matter what kind of rules you try to apply to prevent it.

True, but we can make it very difficult for them to do it at our conferences.

This isn't about stopping everyone in the world from being jerks, this is about keeping it out of our conferences, so that a minority don't spoil them for everyone else, and prevent us from getting more contributors.

One jerk can do a lot of damage, including stopping 10 or 100 people from contributing to a project or attending a conference.

James

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 0:16 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (19 responses)

replying to you in particular, but to many posts in this thread in general.

complaints on these issues need to be separated between the clearly illegal (putting hands down someone's pants for example) where the right thing to do _is_ to call the cops (after all, what can the organisers do other than to call the cops on your behalf, but if you aren't willing to talk to the cops about the issue, there's not much that the organisers can do about it) and the ones that are 'setting a bad tone' by insinuation.

mixing them up doesn't really help, if for no other reason than that the people who are just setting the bad tone are going to look at this and say "I'm not doing that sort of thing" and continue to ignore the things that they are doing that are merely offending people.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 0:35 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (16 responses)

"after all, what can the organisers do other than to call the cops on your behalf, but if you aren't willing to talk to the cops about the issue, there's not much that the organisers can do about it"

There's plenty the organisers can do. They can eject the individual concerned. They can prevent them from attending the conference in future. They can let other conference organisers know what trouble they had and how they dealt with it. They can make it clear that this kind of behaviour is not tolerated. They are in no way bound by a requirement that law enforcement be involved, and if they insist on that then they are failing in their duty towards their attendees.

It's a scale. Some inappropriate acts can be dealt with by simply taking the person concerned aside and suggesting that they modify their behaviour. Other acts are sufficiently serious that the involvement of law enforcement may be required even if the victim isn't willing to do so themselves. But they're different extremes of the same thing, and talking about both in the same context isn't mixing things up.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 2:07 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (15 responses)

ejecting people opens the organisers up to lawsuits from the people being ejected. How many people are willing to accept that sort of liability?

and please don't say that false accusations never happen, it's been very clearly proven that they do (and to be clear, I am in no way stating or implying that the people interviewed for this article are in any way misstating what actually happened)

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 2:41 UTC (Thu) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link] (2 responses)

*Not* ejecting people also opens organizers up to lawsuits from the people being harassed. (Especially when the harasser is a repeat offender that everyone knows about but ignores anyway. Even if we ignore the *ethical* aspects here, that'd be a *far* more difficult lawsuit to defend against.)

And, for that matter, pretty much everything else involved in running a conference *also* opens one up to lawsuits -- e.g., guess who's on the hook if some attendees trash the venue.

So we have standard ways to deal with this -- written policies (if the form when you signed up said "attendance may be revoked on whim of organizers" then you hardly have a legal leg to stand up if your attendance did get revoked), and running the conference under the auspices of a limited liability corporation with a civil liability insurance policy.

This is all so standard that when I see the liability argument I always feel like the person advancing it is just trying to find some logical justification to back up their gut reaction. Sorry if that's not the case here, but that's how I feel.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 7:14 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

I was in San Jose (Silicon Valley) a few weeks ago, and the hotel I was staying at apparently has problems with weekend parties.

they had a written policy that they apparently hand out to guests staying for the weekend talking about eviction if there are noise complaints.

one interesting thing about this was that it wasn't hotel security that would evict them. The hotel would call the police and have the police evict them.

If you want to throw someone out and make it stick, you really should involve the professionals, either police or other local security personnel.

if someone is merely misbehaving, telling them to calm down, but the off-color jokes, etc is very definitely appropriate for anyone who witnesses the bad behavior to do (definitely NOT limited to event staff), but if you are talking about behavior bad enough to throw someone out (the abuse/assault level of behavior) that is a different story.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 3, 2010 5:19 UTC (Fri) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]

Dunno what your hotel story has to do with anything? Are we just changing the subject from talking about the liability risks of throwing people out to talking about the exact mechanisms that should be used to do it?

Anyone who's running a conference should hopefully be competent enough to handle this kind of situation in an appropriate manner; whether that involves calling the cops is going to be situation dependent, but it's certainly an option.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 3:19 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (3 responses)

"ejecting people opens the organisers up to lawsuits from the people being ejected. How many people are willing to accept that sort of liability?"

Really? The terms and conditions for most conferences I've signed up to make it clear that the organisers are free to eject me if they see fit. What's the worst that can happen? Refunding of admission fee on a pro-rata basis?

"and please don't say that false accusations never happen, it's been very clearly proven that they do (and to be clear, I am in no way stating or implying that the people interviewed for this article are in any way misstating what actually happened)"

False accusations happen. It's a dreadful reality, and I feel deeply for anyone who's been affected by it. But it's a minority of situations, and while it's true that a false accusation can affect someone's life, so does sexual assault. Working on the assumption that accusations are false until proven true protects may be fine for a criminal justice system, but in a community it hurts a small number of innocents while harming a large number of innocents. If I sexually assault someone in a back room at a conference, without any witnesses, what do you expect law enforcement to do? What do you expect the outcome of me continuing to attend and speak at conferences to be? Is my victim ever going to be enthusiastic about showing up to any event I'm presenting at? Is anyone that my victim ever speaks to?

There's a straightforward way to avoid false accusations. Behave in a manner such that nobody believes you're capable of anything you're accused of. It turns out that people predisposed to inappropriate behaviour generally manage to creep out other people beforehand.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 4:38 UTC (Thu) by bfields (subscriber, #19510) [Link] (1 responses)

"But it's a minority of situations"

Yes, and what on earth does it have to do with having an anti-harassment policy, anyway? Organizers can ask people to leave now, and probably have to every now and then. They could do it on flimsy pretenses already.

This is silly.

All this carping about procedure is beside the point--if there were a pattern of people running around conferences giving wedgies, and the organizers said "cut that out, or you're not welcomed", we wouldn't be having this argument.

The real argument is over whether you should feel like you screwed up because you used a "slide of bikini-clad women" for some throwaway joke. So, go browse around the wiki a little, and come back and argue specific points if you really want to.

Meanwhile, you consider this just a matter of a few thin-skinned people being "offended", and you resent being asked to visit some confusing alien ultra-politically-correct culture--fine, so just take this all as a sort of guide to the quaint customs of our culture. They're not that hard, honest. And stop worrying that you're going to be booted out for some minor slip-up--unless you're totally nuts, the worst that's going to happen is you'll have the slightly uncomfortable experience of somebody in a staff t-shirt asking you to stop doing something....

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 6:27 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

you are very much putting words in my mouth.

I was talking strictly about the assault-level events

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 9:08 UTC (Thu) by KSteffensen (guest, #68295) [Link]

"There's a straightforward way to avoid false accusations. Behave in a manner such that nobody believes you're capable of anything you're accused of. It turns out that people predisposed to inappropriate behaviour generally manage to creep out other people beforehand."

In Denmark where I live, for the last couple of years we've had quite a high focus on peadophilia in daycare centers, sports communities, boy scouts, etc. Since peadophilia is such a horrible crime and so hard to prove conclusively in a court, an accusation of peadophilia is enough to ruin a persons life, even though the accused is acquitted in court. This leads to a situation where men I know refuse to do paid or charity work in these settings, for the fear of being accused of touching the children.

Behaving in a manner such that nobody believes you're capable of anything you're accused of is not necessarily as straightforward as you say.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 3:43 UTC (Thu) by vaurora (guest, #38407) [Link] (2 responses)

A conference is a private event. Generally speaking, the organizers have as much legal right to eject someone from a conference as you do to kick someone out of your house. If you are a conference organizer, it's your party, you can invite - or kick out - anyone you like.

Hm, I feel like I wrote this before. Oh, that's because I did!

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-harassment_policy...

(Search for "private event.")

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 17:06 UTC (Thu) by sorpigal (guest, #36106) [Link] (1 responses)

Having taken time to actually read this link I am now confused. Is this the policy referenced in TFA? It seems like it would be better described as an Anti-Harassment HOWTO for conference organizers, a thing which clearly would be beneficial and not at all harmful. Describing it as a "policy" and referencing the Ubuntu code of conduct suggests that this is some kind of affidavit that each attendee would have to agree to live by, which sounds draconian and unreasonable.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 18:17 UTC (Thu) by maco (guest, #53641) [Link]

No, the one in TFA is: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harass...

You're right that the one she linked in the comments is just an explanation of anti-harassment policies and issues surrounding them.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 5:51 UTC (Thu) by stewart (subscriber, #50665) [Link]

> ejecting people opens the organisers up to lawsuits from the people being > ejected. How many people are willing to accept that sort of liability?

Just about all of them.

Those that aren't, I don't want to go to.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 7, 2010 15:16 UTC (Tue) by sez (guest, #71571) [Link] (3 responses)

Ejecting people opens $conf up to lawsuits. Where is your evidence for this claim?

Sounds like FUD to me.

Certainly for our conference our insurance policy explicitly *does not cover* claims under molestation, so if someone experiences that at our conference and we have done nothing to prevent it, we are wide open to being sued.

But as far as ejecting people goes - no problem.

False complaint?? What are you talking about?

This is not a kangaroo court, no-ones being charged with anything here. If the worst possible thing happens under this policy and the person gets ejected, too bad - so sad, they go back to work and tell their buddies whatever they want. Its a minor inconvenience.

If the conf organisers don't eject them and the offender goes on to grope and harass more people, the class action lawsuit, not covered by insurance is going to go as high as the national debt.

You want to pay for that?

I don't get it

Posted Dec 7, 2010 19:20 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (2 responses)

if you refund the person's air fare, hotel, and conference registration, then it can approach 'too bad, so sad' but even then it's not a non-event.

your opinion seems to be 'better to punish a hundred innocent people by throwing them out than to miss throwing out one bad person', aka a presumption of guilt.

At least in the US, this is not how things are supposed to work.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 7, 2010 20:30 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

I think you're mistaking judicial process and a private event.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 7, 2010 20:31 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Where did sez talk about throwing out hundreds of people?

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 2:28 UTC (Thu) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

I think it's important to keep the plainly illegal actions separate from the merely obnoxious ones in terms of how we respond to them, but not to the point that we treat them as completely separate issues. They aren't. Bad behavior is self reinforcing. You can bet the plainly illegal behavior is far more common at events where simple obnoxiousness is tolerated than at events where any level of sexism is considered unacceptable.

And the less egregious behavior is an area where the community can really do something. If you think somebody is setting a bad tone, don't just shrug it off because it doesn't affect you. Challenge them on it.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 10:27 UTC (Thu) by mdz@debian.org (guest, #14112) [Link]

"after all, what can the organisers do other than to call the cops on your behalf, but if you aren't willing to talk to the cops about the issue, there's not much that the organisers can do about it"

Their first responsibility is to avoid this situation happening in the first place.

I don't get it

Posted Dec 2, 2010 2:02 UTC (Thu) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] (17 responses)

You're right, you don't get it. The worst offenses- the sexual assault and soliciting prostitution- feed on minor ones. When sexual harassment is shrugged off with a nod and a wink, it gives would be attackers the message that women are acceptable prey. On the other hand, a code of conduct that bans even minor examples of sexism will make it clear that any kind of unequal treatment is unacceptable- as long as the words are backed up with concrete action.

Less NOT More

Posted Dec 2, 2010 14:02 UTC (Thu) by brianomahoney (guest, #6206) [Link] (16 responses)

This has to be in and of America, where the law is not enough, and the self-identified victims want to create more specifically tailored politically correct crap. That is what this is, pure crap.

Women and GLT are entitled to the same respect and protection under the law as anyone else, no more, no less. That already deals with harassment and unwanted advances, un-wanted flirting need to be delt with firmly by the flirtee.

Less NOT More

Posted Dec 2, 2010 14:46 UTC (Thu) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (15 responses)

Women and GLT are entitled to the same respect and protection under the law as anyone else, no more, no less.
Of course that's not enough. It never will be until all the wrongs are set right and atoned for. Of course when someone has a carte blanche to keep inventing new wrongs the process will never be complete.

Only in ivory tower academia or government circles are views like this taken seriously any more. The rest of the culture has moved on and doesn't give the people who spout off that kind of BS much credibility.

please stop.

Posted Dec 2, 2010 19:17 UTC (Thu) by wingo (guest, #26929) [Link] (13 responses)

Please stop, both of you. You are attempting to smear the people you disagree with as being out-of-touch, but do yourself a favor and count the number of commenters here that agree with you.

I live in Europe, work in industry, and agree with Val.

Thank you.

please stop.

Posted Dec 3, 2010 6:28 UTC (Fri) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]

See, but you're only counting the people who feel safe posting on an anonymous internet bulletin board. You need to also count the lurkers who support him in email.

please stop.

Posted Dec 5, 2010 16:12 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Likewise, very strongly. In fact in Europe I'd hope that these things were stamped on much harder than in the US. Certainly there are longer legal teeth in some countries, but I'm not sure about cultural ones: the EU is culturally diverse and in some places, e.g. Italy, all sorts of appalling things appear to be acceptable if one uses the antics of political leaders as an indication of what is marginally tolerable.

please stop.

Posted Dec 7, 2010 11:57 UTC (Tue) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (10 responses)

I live in Europe
Considering how your enlightened European laws are sufficiently accommodating to arrest Julian Assange on trumped up charges I'm not sure that's something worth bragging about.

Coincidentally, did you notice that the crime he's being accused of only exists because of the radical feminist doctrine that women can retroactively withdraw consent? (men, of course, do not have this privilege)

please stop.

Posted Dec 7, 2010 14:23 UTC (Tue) by vaurora (guest, #38407) [Link] (8 responses)

"Can retroactively withdraw consent" - bullshit, this is not an accurate description at all. I think this quote sums it up well:

"The New York Times reported that the two women claimed that "each had consensual sexual encounters with Mr. Assange that became nonconsensual.""

Basically, they started have sex, she said, "Okay, time for the condom!", he said, "Condom, schmondom" and proceeded against her wishes. Sorry, folks, but even after everyone has taken off all their clothes and are getting all snuggly, it's still possible to commit rape. Just imagine any number of things you would not like to have done to yourself while naked in bed. Go on, I'm sure you can think of something. Now imagine your next sex partner decided to do them to you and wouldn't take no for an answer. Also imagine that your sex partner is bigger and stronger than you and a worldwide hero and that thousands of self-righteous internet commenters will come to their defense.

If you think this is an okay way to have sex, do, please, post your name and photo so we can avoid you just as assiduously as Julian Assange. Thanks.

please stop.

Posted Dec 7, 2010 14:33 UTC (Tue) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (7 responses)

Before you make concrete in your mind that version of events, you may wish to read this alternative account of the events that lead to the accusations around Assange: http://t.co/K4SIHRP

(Warning for those who don't have an istyosty plugin installed: It's a dailymail link, but this one is at least interesting, and its author claims to be basing it on the actual police charges, combined with talking to associates of those involved. The latter of course not infrequently turns out to be highly biased / unreliable, but the author at least seems to try to differentiate what info came from what kind of source).

please stop.

Posted Dec 7, 2010 15:58 UTC (Tue) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link] (1 responses)

You can use actual links on lwn.net, you know. It's not Twitter -- you don't have to fit within 140 characters.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336291/Wikileaks...

please stop.

Posted Dec 7, 2010 16:36 UTC (Tue) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

A better link would be via istyosty (a proxy), to minimise the clicks given to the Daily Hate: http://istyosty.com/2r1

please stop.

Posted Dec 7, 2010 16:30 UTC (Tue) by vaurora (guest, #38407) [Link] (4 responses)

Oh, my mistake - they had sex with a condom, then they want to sleep, then he had sex without a condom against his partner's wishes. In the other incident they had sex with a condom, the condom broke, and he went on to have sex without a condom against his partner's wishes.

I'm afraid this doesn't change my disagreement with the original poster at all. No consent was withdrawn retroactively, it was not given at the time of the act.

please stop.

Posted Dec 7, 2010 16:40 UTC (Tue) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

Do you always automatically take accusations against people as true? The precise nature of consent is at best unclear, and there are no allegations of force or duress of any kind (least none public at least).

please stop.

Posted Dec 7, 2010 16:47 UTC (Tue) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Ah, and just after I wrote that, details of charges come out in the court hearing and they include use of force. Still, needs to be tried before judgment...

please stop.

Posted Dec 7, 2010 17:07 UTC (Tue) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (1 responses)

A actual rape victim does not go out the next morning, buy food, cook breakfast for her attacker, eat it with him and only later deciding to file charges.

It's a sham that only makes sense under the twisted ideology of "all men are automatically rapists".

Of course it's all geopoliticaly motivated but the incident does serve to illuminate just how outrageous those laws have become.

please stop.

Posted Dec 7, 2010 17:33 UTC (Tue) by jake (editor, #205) [Link]

We seem to have gotten pretty far afield from the topic of the article. I imagine there are plenty of places to discuss Wikileaks/Assange and the charges against him. Howzabout we stop discussing it here?

thanks,

jake

please stop.

Posted Dec 10, 2010 12:15 UTC (Fri) by randomguy3 (subscriber, #71063) [Link]

They may be trumped up. They may not be. We (random people on the internets) certainly don't have enough information to say one way or the other. They are certainly serious, though.

What we have are courts to hear the evidence and come to a conclusion. Largely open courts, whose decisions can be scrutinised by the press and public.

Mr Assange is attempting to avoid the confrontation with the courts. He believes he is in danger of either a miscarriage of justice or extradition to the US. These things may be true, but the world will be watching carefully.

Anyway, this is something of a digression from the topic of the article, but your automatic assumption that the women involved must be lying simply because his arrest is convenient for various governments certainly won't endear you to other readers. And you are somewhat undermining your earlier argument about how the police are the right people to deal with issues at conferences given how little faith you apparently have in European legal systems.

Less NOT More

Posted Dec 3, 2010 19:39 UTC (Fri) by AdamW (subscriber, #48457) [Link]

This is an interesting fallacy because it becomes so clearly absurd if you apply it to, well, any other area at all.

To make it clear, the fallacy is 'the only rules of conduct that matter are the law of the land. Nothing else matters'.

So, let's see. Would you go to a church, stand up in the middle of the service, and yell "YOU'RE ALL MORONS! GOD IS DEAD!"

Would you consider that acceptable behaviour? Even if you don't believe in God? *I* don't believe in God, and I wouldn't do that.

But it's not illegal. So, why wouldn't you do that (assuming you wouldn't)? Because you recognize that it would be outside the accepted code of behaviour in that environment. It would be rude.

If you did this, the church in question would likely ask that you not attend any events there in future. Would you say they would be unreasonable to do so?

Okay, more examples. Would you sign up for LKML and send five hundred messages discussing the NFL? Again, this isn't illegal at all. But would you think it would be a reasonable or polite thing to do? Would you be surprised if you were banned from the list for doing it? But it's not illegal! What right does LKML have to enforce its cruel and arbitrary standards of behaviour on you when you're not breaking the law?

See, it *really* doesn't stand up at all. But for some reason, you think it's fine to apply the bizarre idea that behaviour can only possibly be wrong if it's illegal to the sphere of sexual harassment.


Copyright © 2025, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds