GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
If you haven't been paying attention to GNU grep recently, you should be happily surprised by some of the new features and options that have come about with the 2.5 series. They bring it functionality you can't get anywhere else -- including the ability to output only matched patterns (not lines), color output, and new file and directory options."
Posted Jun 1, 2006 19:16 UTC (Thu)
by elanthis (guest, #6227)
[Link] (25 responses)
On the other hand.. if it _was_ already possible before, do we need it all in one utility? GNU is rather notorious for feature-bloating its software.
My general opinion though is that this is a good thing, and I'm quit happy to have these features available in grep. Anything that saves me some typing and reduces the chances of making a mistake eases my life.
Posted Jun 1, 2006 20:53 UTC (Thu)
by coriordan (guest, #7544)
[Link] (17 responses)
I remember hearing a BSD guy complaining about GNU. He didn't like the number of extra options that GNU It also reminds me of the Real men use 'ed' mail.
Speaking of nifty free software projects, I put my 10 favourite software tools online today.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 0:42 UTC (Fri)
by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Jun 2, 2006 5:27 UTC (Fri)
by xoddam (subscriber, #2322)
[Link]
Fourteen, eight ... I guess libc used to be smaller :-)
Posted Jun 2, 2006 8:16 UTC (Fri)
by davidw (guest, #947)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Jun 2, 2006 13:29 UTC (Fri)
by micampe (guest, #4384)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Jun 2, 2006 17:06 UTC (Fri)
by carcassonne (guest, #31569)
[Link] (2 responses)
I just got the cedet kit for emacs and although I've not had the time to configure it yet, it provides (the semantic part of it) 'intellisense' completion (that is, based on the code, not the regular completion emacs has based on what you type).
And it does not seem to add any more memory use to emacs.
For refactoring, there's xref for emacs, but that's a commercial product.
As for real-time error checking, I dunno. I guess I'd prefer the actual compiler to check this out. It's pretty good at that.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 22:08 UTC (Fri)
by micampe (guest, #4384)
[Link] (1 responses)
I just got the cedet kit for emacs and although I've not had the time to configure it yet, it provides (the semantic part of it) 'intellisense' completion (that is, based on the code, not the regular completion emacs has based on what you type). There's more than just intellisense. Intellisense is so 90s. If that does it for you, fine by me, but I prefer using a tool with an user interface designed in this century, doesn't require configuration to be used and three years to master (and I still doubt that tool can be considered on par with Eclipse JDT). As for real-time error checking, I dunno. I guess I'd prefer the actual compiler to check this out. It's pretty good at that. It is the actual compiler doing that. Eclipse (like most other IDEs) is much more powerful than a text editor launching a compiler.
Posted Jun 8, 2006 7:38 UTC (Thu)
by lysse (guest, #3190)
[Link]
Likewise, I guess writing code that doesn't assume infinite memory and CPU cycles and actually takes care to conserve its resource usage is so 80s...
"I prefer using a tool with an user interface designed in this century"
Whereas a goodly number of developers prefer using a tool whose UI has been under constant development for 20 years and is customisable to a degree where it works with their muscle memory. Good engineering simply doesn't become obsolete, and I'd rather have an intuitive command set than a pretty picture any day.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 8:47 UTC (Fri)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
But of course not all of that is *loaded* at once :)
Posted Jun 2, 2006 8:56 UTC (Fri)
by sitaram (guest, #5959)
[Link] (2 responses)
I prefer "openssl enc" to "gpg -c" -- it's almost an order of magnitude faster sometimes! Here're some speed ratios from my machine:
Enc Dec Enc+Dec
You may want to evaluate it yourself and consider this if you are doing this often or to large files.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 8:57 UTC (Fri)
by sitaram (guest, #5959)
[Link]
Posted Jun 2, 2006 12:40 UTC (Fri)
by coriordan (guest, #7544)
[Link]
You know what needs to be done? 'tar' needs to be given support for 'gpg -c', just like it supports gzip and bzip2 compression.
Of course password stuff isn't as secure as public key encryption, but it's great when you don't want your local proxy to keep an unencrypted copy of something, and it's good to ecrypt something and tell the password to the recipient when you meet them in person.
I haven't heard of people doing this with 'openssl enc' - I'll look into it.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 14:27 UTC (Fri)
by jabby (guest, #2648)
[Link] (3 responses)
Ken makes this very clear: "No amount of source-level verification or scrutiny will protect you from using untrusted code." GCC is a Free compiler for C, written in C and is thus just as vulnerable to this hack as any other self-referential code.
Anyone could download GCC, follow the steps that Ken outlined and eventually install a version on their system that contains the trojan but with no trace in the source code. If that person were an insider at the place that compiles the binaries for your GNU/Linux distribution of choice, it wouldn't matter that you had access to the source code. Once you accept the binary from that trusted source, you are vulnerable. If you were to recompile the compiler from pristine source code with the trojaned gcc binary, you would still get a trojaned gcc!
Admittedly, having an entirely free system helps tremendously in raising the bar of trust, but depending on a wide and farflung community also means casting a wide net of trust. I trust the Free Software community, but the four freedoms do not prevent this particular hack. It all comes down to trust.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 16:11 UTC (Fri)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
It's still not infinitely high, but it's higher.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 20:17 UTC (Fri)
by coriordan (guest, #7544)
[Link] (1 responses)
It's not perfect, and some trust is still required, but that is a fact of life and cannot be avoided. All we can do is aim for "as good as it gets" - and that involves the four freedoms.
When I was writing that paragraph in my blog, I wondered if I should go into the explanation, but I decided against because it was supposed to be a paragraph about GCC.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 20:32 UTC (Fri)
by jabby (guest, #2648)
[Link]
And your paragraph in the context of GCC is not incorrect. It's absolutely true that Free Software helps to prevent source-borne trojans. Only in the context of the whole ACM article does this argument fall short and, as you say, that was not your aim in your short "top 10" list.
Posted Jun 4, 2006 2:55 UTC (Sun)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (1 responses)
What happened to the Unix philosophy of small tools that do one thing, and do it well, that can be combined endlessly?
Sure, it is nice to have all this in one package, but on the other hand it is infuriating to see that the "same functionality" (regular expression patterns, processing directories recursively, the list is seemingly endless) are implemented differently in several tools, and what would be handy to combine with other tools sometimes can't be done as it is bound to a specific program.
Posted Jun 5, 2006 12:49 UTC (Mon)
by coriordan (guest, #7544)
[Link]
It's worth noting that that the problem with multiple implementations is not as big a problem as "design purity" people sometimes claim it is. Factoring the regex code out into a library and standardising on that (as GNU usually does), greatly reduces problems such as inconsistency.
Posted Jun 1, 2006 20:53 UTC (Thu)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (6 responses)
As for grep -P, it's implemented using PCRE, so no bloat at all.
(Of course there will never be a pgrep or `prep' (ugh) as suggested in the article: egrep and fgrep are *already* obsolete, with grep -E and grep -F their preferred forms. Introducing more obsoleteness on top seems... peculiar.)
Posted Jun 2, 2006 12:00 UTC (Fri)
by jond (subscriber, #37669)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Jun 2, 2006 16:14 UTC (Fri)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Jun 4, 2006 2:21 UTC (Sun)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (3 responses)
Yet another reason to consider the coding standard to be braindamaged.
Posted Jun 5, 2006 9:56 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (2 responses)
POSIX agreed: hence grep -E and grep -F, and the deprecation of look-at-argv[0] programs.
Posted Jun 8, 2006 7:41 UTC (Thu)
by lysse (guest, #3190)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jun 8, 2006 12:34 UTC (Thu)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
busybox is also a bit of a special case, in that 'size is everything', so the heaps-of-symlinks approach actually makes sense.
(But you don't necessarily need any of the symlinks. If you're running everything from a busybox shell, you can tell it to find busybox commands first regardless of the absence of symlinks.)
The BSDs have a tool called crunchgen which smashes a bunch of programs into one which conditionalizes off argv[0] in much the same way. (Except that busybox is smaller and doesn't penalize the rest of the system by forcing the *default* tools to be little featureless ones.)
Posted Jun 1, 2006 21:35 UTC (Thu)
by mjr (guest, #6979)
[Link] (10 responses)
Probably not a problem most of the time, and one can always normalize the files separately. A bit cumbersome, though.
Posted Jun 1, 2006 22:27 UTC (Thu)
by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167)
[Link] (9 responses)
Some languages have minor distinctions between characters (think like "case sensitivity" in English) that sometimes need to be ignored when searching. Some have special rules that treat several characters as one in certain circumstances (e.g. imagine if "qu" was not treated as a "q" and a "u" in English, but as a unit "qu", while both "q" and "u" continued to exist separately in other words so that a search for "u" would not match "queen"). Some have the reverse (imagine if English treated W the same as VV so that a search for "veek" would match "week")
On the whole this is a big enough can of worms to deserve a completely new piece of software, one specifically aimed at locale sensitive searching.
Posted Jun 1, 2006 22:36 UTC (Thu)
by mjr (guest, #6979)
[Link]
Posted Jun 1, 2006 23:00 UTC (Thu)
by kingdon (guest, #4526)
[Link] (2 responses)
Google might have something of the sort. I know I've searched for non-ASCII strings but haven't played extensively with things like a-with-an-accent (as one character) versus a plus accent-which-combines (as two characters).
But if Lucene does anything like this, the Lucene FAQ doesn't seem to say so (it just says that Lucene uses Unicode and doesn't elaborate).
Oh, and having the search behave differently based on locale is the wrong approach (IMHO). It is a common case that you have a lot of documents, some in one language, some in another, and some in more than one. Sure, giving up locales might cause you to lose some rules where language A treats character X one way, and language B treats it differently (hopefully obscure, but I'm not expert enough to say). Most of the time it would work to just look at the characters in the document and the search string, and ignore the locale.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 6:40 UTC (Fri)
by MortFurd (guest, #9389)
[Link]
German has vowels with the umlaut (the two dots above the character.) The standard way to type these on a key board that doesn't have the umlauted characters is to substitute a two character combination (ae for umlaut a, ue for umlaut u, etc.) Google properly find words containing the umlaut characters, and also find matches to the double cahracter substitute if you give it an umlaut (my home computer has a german keyboard, my work computer has an amercain keyboard, so I get to see both sides of the problem.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 9:40 UTC (Fri)
by ibukanov (subscriber, #3942)
[Link]
It is not necessary for Google to know anything about combined characters etc. since Google search is strictly a word search. So they just need to assemble the list of all forms for particular word and map them to the same index entry.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 6:11 UTC (Fri)
by dvdeug (guest, #10998)
[Link]
Posted Jun 2, 2006 9:47 UTC (Fri)
by stijn (subscriber, #570)
[Link] (3 responses)
At one time I worked at PICA in the Netherlands. Together with a colleague (Geert-Jan van Opdorp) I worked on implementing Unicode search with support for wild cards etc. We made extensive use of the icu libraries (IBM Internationalization Code for Unicode), and IIRC Geert-Jan implemented Udi Manber's (et al) search algorithms to work with Unicode. That was quite a feat. All this was of course in the context of indexes and indexes to indexes, and it built on the already existing infrastructure. But it is doable.
One of my previous projects was the development of a macro language + its processor. It is currently byte (and even ASCII) based. Someone once enquired about 'Unicode support'. I still wonder what possible meanings Unicode support could take on in that context, and I wonder to what extent Unicode should permeate the command line. IIRC perl6 might have Unicode tokens. Is that sane (whether it's true or not)? I am attracted to the idea of keeping Unicode for content, but perhaps that assumes a distinction that cannot be maintained.
Posted Jun 2, 2006 10:32 UTC (Fri)
by arcticwolf (guest, #8341)
[Link]
Posted Jun 2, 2006 12:40 UTC (Fri)
by niner (subscriber, #26151)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jun 2, 2006 13:10 UTC (Fri)
by stijn (subscriber, #570)
[Link]
I was thinking of this:
Which is taking it a little step further. I am sure I don't like it.
(The comment editor does not let me enter «» alas so I cut and pasted French quotes into the comment - apparently that works)
Posted Jun 2, 2006 9:53 UTC (Fri)
by stijn (subscriber, #570)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Jun 2, 2006 9:56 UTC (Fri)
by stijn (subscriber, #570)
[Link]
Posted Jun 8, 2006 12:37 UTC (Thu)
by dougm (guest, #4615)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jun 10, 2006 21:59 UTC (Sat)
by jzbiciak (guest, #5246)
[Link]
I doubt gauging the page size to optimize reads really helps for much other than pipes, and even then I don't know how much it helps.
These are definitely useful. Doing the same thing generally takes a rather more complex sed line, grep/sed combination, or grep/find combination.GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
do we need it all in on utility? yes please!
ls has. As if it proved his argument, he pointed out that BSD ls was only 18kb while GNU ls was a massive 75kb. Who cares if one tiny binary is 5 times the size of the other tiny binary? It's not "bloat", it's the stuff I want so that I can to get my work done easier.
Emacs, of course, is everyone's favorite target for complaining about bloat. Remember "Eight do we need it all in on utility? yes please!
Megs And Constantly Swapping"? But the funny thing is, Emacs has remained relatively constant
in memory usage over the years, so that nowadays, that eight megs does not look so bad.
Compare it to Eclipse, or Mozilla, or even some individual component programs of GNOME or
KDE, and, well...gee. Emacs suddenly doesn't look so bloated.
eight megs and constantly swapping
PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
5915 jmaddox 15 0 14192 11m 8752 S 0.0 1.1 0:56.04 emacs
Yeah, I still can't quite figure out what Eclipse *does* with all that memory. It's an order of magnitude bigger than a fully-loaded Emacs session.do we need it all in on utility? yes please!
In short, it builds a model of your code, to provide smart completion suggestions, real-time error checking, refactoring and more.do we need it all in on utility? yes please!
In short, it builds a model of your code, to provide smart completion suggestions, real-time error checking, refactoring and more.
do we need it all in on utility? yes please!
do we need it all in on utility? yes please!
"Intellisense is so 90s."do we need it all in on utility? yes please!
XEmacs has grown, because of all the packages: there's 120Mb of Lisp alone shipped with it.do we need it all in on utility? yes please!
I went to that link (10 fav software tools), and I noticed that "gpg -c" is a favourite!do we need it all in on utility? yes please!
Blowfish 9.39 6.95 8.2
AES256 6.09 4.05 5.08
CAST5 4.87 2.67 3.7
Rats! Forgot the formatting...
do we need it all in on utility? yes please!
Enc Dec Enc+Dec
Blowfish 9.39 6.95 8.2
AES256 6.09 4.05 5.08
CAST5 4.87 2.67 3.7
I like the 'gpg -c' functionality because I think most people don't realise that GnuPG can do that. I reckon most people think that you can't only use it for public/private key encryption, and that's too complicated for some (at least as a first step).why "gpg -c"
I read your 10 favorite tools in which you refer to the Ken Thompson article on the C compiler/login trojan in the context of GCC. You seem to be missing his point, though...trust, GCC, and Ken Thompson's compiler trojan thesis
The bar is raised yet more if you initially cross-compile your bootstrap GCC using a completely different compiler, preferably on a different architecture.trust, GCC, and Ken Thompson's compiler trojan thesis
I agree with Ken that no one can verify all the code, but access to the source is better than no access to the source, and knowing that everyone has access to the source, and can analyse it in any way they want, and that if one person finds a trojan, they can remove it and publish the patch, is probably as good as it gets.ok, the longer version then
I agree. Access to source is a huge advantage. And keeping source code in a version control system goes a long way toward monitoring changes and preventing even the fully baked Ken Thompson exploit.ok, the longer version then
do we need it all in on utility? yes please!
Sometimes there is a conflict between the goals of design purity, and giving the user what they expect. I don't think either goal is perfect, so decisions or compromises have to be made.purity vs. functionality
--only-matching's code is 24 lines long. Bloat? Not hardly.GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
egrep and fgrep are just shell scripts that call grep -E and grep -F on my system (sarge). I found this out the hard way, when I was using fgrep in a busy loop.GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
This is true in the upstream distro, and has been true since at least 2002. (Before that they were three separate binaries with different behaviours; having a single program that acts differently depending on its name is a violation of the GNU Coding Standards, so it wasn't implemented like that except for a brief period in 2002.)GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
...having a single program that acts differently depending on its name is a violation of the GNU Coding Standards, ...
The reasoning is entirely sensible: it is counterintuitive to have a program act differently simply because you mv'ed it to a different name. Among other things, having grep behave differently simply because you called it egrep *bans* you from making egrep a wrapper script, unless there is some other way to get at egrep's behaviour.GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
Where does that leave BusyBox?GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
busybox isn't specified by POSIX nor is it a GNU project (nor does it even slightly conform to the GNU Coding Standards).GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
I've yet to need it myself, but for a while it's been on my mind that grep should really be able to normalize Unicode strings for search purposes. After all, often we'd like to get at matches incorporating the given characters, not just the literal octet streams.Unicode normalization
Once you start thinking along these lines you really want a completely localised search feature. Unicode normalisation only reduces identifiable Unicode characters to a single representation (e.g forcing LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E followed by COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT to LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E WITH ACUTE, or vice versa) in a reproducible manner. That's maybe useful in a search program, but it's not enough to make it suitable for many non-English and particularly non-European languages. IMO it's fine to provide a separate tool for pre-processing text into one of the accepted Unicode normalisations.Unicode normalization
Fair points. Drawing the line would perhaps be less straightforward than I thought.Unicode normalization
Sure it is complicated, but is anyone really doing much work on the problem (either in grep or in a separate tool)?Unicode normalization
Google does a decent job with that kind of thing - at least for what I do.Unicode normalization
> Google might have something of the sort. Unicode normalization
Unicode normalization may not be enough for localized searching, but it's the only _correct_ way to search Unicode text. LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E followed by COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT is the exact same thing as LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E WITH ACUTE according to the Unicode standard, and a program that will match one and not the other is not conforming to the standard. It's not unreasonable to ask for grep to at least provide an option to conform to the standard and work the way that users expect? Only a character set geek will understand why those two items don't match, and only such a person should have to understand that.Unicode normalization
Unicode normalization
If you use utf8, Perl 5 already allows you to use Unicode in identifiers, for example, actually.
Unicode normalization
Even perl 5 supports unicode in program text (not just string constants, but all identifiers). Just use utf8;perl
perl
.. a version with French quotes «» that does interpolation before splitting into words
On a side note, when implementing file reads I had a look at the grep code because it was so astoundingly fast. It works by gauging the native page size (getpagesize.h in the grep source code) and then doing read(1)s of that size. It is probably a well known fact of life - very useful.GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
s/1/2/ to make it read(2)s.GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
Shouldn't the libc stdio functions already be doing that? They're supposed to buffer input with the GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)
"appropriate" buffer size...
Some read()'s will mmap(), others will just do typical buffering w/ read system calls, still others will be more daft. GNU has control over glibc, but not other libc implementations.GNU grep's new features (Linux.com)