Groklaw shutting down in May
I know a lot of you will be unhappy to hear it, so let me briefly explain, because my decision is made and it's firm. In a simple sentence, the reason is this: the crisis SCO initiated over Linux is over, and Linux won. SCO as we knew it is no more. There will be other battles, and there already are, because the same people that propped SCO up are still going to try to destroy Linux, but the battlefield has shifted, and I don't feel Groklaw is needed in the new battlefield the way it was in the SCO v. Linux wars." Pamela, you did great work; we hope your next project is as fruitful and satisfying.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 0:24 UTC (Sun)
by csamuel (✭ supporter ✭, #2624)
[Link] (61 responses)
Big thanks to PJ for Groklaw, she really set the standard for this kind of effort! Also good on her for being able to let go when it is time to and for knowing that there is more to life than just one cause. Valē Groklaw!
Posted Apr 10, 2011 1:07 UTC (Sun)
by Ed_L. (guest, #24287)
[Link] (60 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 5:20 UTC (Sun)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (59 responses)
"But there are higher callings for her talent." The word "her" needs citation. There was an avatar named "PJ", who claimed that "PJ" meant "Pamela Jones", but there was never any verifiable track record, such as past and current employers, and "PJ" never presented "herself" in public. I just explained in another comment here that this lack of transparency wasn't reasonable. But assuming that "PJ" is a person, I don't know what you mean by "talent". "PJ" claimed to be a paralegal, admitted not to have programming knowledge, and very apparently failed to understand the world of business. In other words, we talk about a person who apparently would have liked to become a lawyers but failed to get there, and who missed some other important perspectives that "she" would have needed to provide holistic analysis of the issues "she" covered.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 6:45 UTC (Sun)
by dbruce (guest, #57948)
[Link]
The research on Groklaw stands for itself. The real-life identity of the blogger is no concern of ours.
I think Groklaw has been enormously valuable - far more so than other online resources related to e.g. software patents. I'm sad to see it go.
DSB
Posted Apr 10, 2011 6:55 UTC (Sun)
by SEJeff (guest, #51588)
[Link] (5 responses)
Give credit where it is due and if you don't have anything nice to say then shut up.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 9:50 UTC (Sun)
by tdwebste (guest, #18154)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 9:52 UTC (Sun)
by tdwebste (guest, #18154)
[Link]
Posted Apr 10, 2011 10:39 UTC (Sun)
by MisterIO (guest, #36192)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 21:13 UTC (Sun)
by tdwebste (guest, #18154)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 11, 2011 22:26 UTC (Mon)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Florian WAS a good ally in the fight against software patents. But he seems to have become a "disillusioned collaborator". He's quite happy to argue - with mathematicians - that "software isn't maths".
He argues "we've lost the fight against patents, we need to live with it". Well, software patents are illegal, and we need to make sure that that comes out!
What Florian wants is for the GPL and patents to "mutually coexist". Never mind that mutual coexistence will promptly trigger the GPL's self-destruct clause. But, given his behaviour in the MySQL case, it's highly likely that's what he wants...
Cheers,
Posted Apr 10, 2011 9:55 UTC (Sun)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link] (40 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 13:14 UTC (Sun)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (39 responses)
It's not about a "disdain for all things PJ". The problem is that Groklaw has constantly tried to capitalize on many people's desire for simple fairy-tale-like black-and-white views. Groklaw has, partly in its articles and partly in discussions, engaged in character assassination. The net effect of that big brainwashing effort is that some of the more credulous and less informed people now distrust a very smart analyst like Rob Enderle, very smart journalists like Maureen O'Gara and Dan Lyons, or a very smart author like Ed Bott, only because they comment on certain issues with greater sanity than Groklaw.
I don't have a problem if Groklaw cancels its plans and continues beyond May 16. My blog started a year ago, and most of the issues I analyzed aren't even covered by Groklaw (other than occasional news picks at most). I just think that sites promoting black-and-white thinking and a shoot-the-messenger attitude do people a disservice.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 13:38 UTC (Sun)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link] (25 responses)
You can deny your disdain but in your past comments towards her you would be lying with your couched character assassinations of her. So if your the "big guy" you want us to believe you would stop trying to make Groklaw out to be something it was not.
For you to site the "smart analysts" you have does you no service; unless you want everyone forget the bias of at least MOG and Enderle. As for the latter he has stated he is nothing more than a biatch of Microsoft and then pretends to be a fair and balanced journalist.
Or how about their famous NDA with SCO and then went on to proclaim to world+dog there was indeed infringement. I needn't remind you of that outcome.They for what ever reason allowed themselves to be duped and I think I am safe in saying they lost a whole lot of credibility at that point. Though it does not surprise me you hold them in esteem since your level has the appearance to be the same as theirs.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 13:44 UTC (Sun)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (24 responses)
Once you have a similar wealth of information in place about "PJ", you can come back to me and ask for more.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 13:48 UTC (Sun)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link] (15 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 13:51 UTC (Sun)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (14 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 14:12 UTC (Sun)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link] (13 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 16:26 UTC (Sun)
by cyd (guest, #4153)
[Link] (12 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 16:34 UTC (Sun)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (11 responses)
Apart from that, I defended, at the EU level, the biggest revenue source (broadcasting rights) of the world's #1 club in the world's #1 spectator sport, and as a side effect of this effort, high-ranking EU politicians up to the current European Commission Vice President in charge of competition enforcement joined a newly founded fan club.
You can also find my name in the credits of three Blizzard Entertainment titles.
Moreover, I have in recent months been quoted by the world's two leading financial papers (WSJ, FT) and three leading news agencies (Reuters, AP, Bloomberg). In addition, CNN.com, BBC News, Le Monde, El País... I don't know when Groklaw was quoted by media of that profile.
So what does "PJ" bring to the table? A blog full of rants that never had any actual effect on a decision -- it was just a propaganda device all the time.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 16:58 UTC (Sun)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link]
Oh my. No wonder that you sound so bitter.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 17:44 UTC (Sun)
by spaetz (guest, #32870)
[Link] (5 responses)
Initially, I accepted the category award, not enthusiastically but because I did not want to cause any impression of an emotional overreaction by immediately declining it.[...] Before the photograph, I gave the award trophy back to Mr. Dennis Landsbert-Noon, the publisher of the European Voice, and left.[...] In his acceptance speech, he [Rocard, a MEP] mentioned Microsofts sponsorship of the EV50 awards several times.[...] I told Mr. Landsbert-Noon that I had, after serious consideration, 'decided not to accept the award', and that I will issue further statements after obtaining legal advice.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 17:47 UTC (Sun)
by spaetz (guest, #32870)
[Link] (3 responses)
Can we get the 5 minute embargo in which I can still edit my own article even after publishing please?
Posted Apr 10, 2011 18:09 UTC (Sun)
by zooko (guest, #2589)
[Link] (2 responses)
Not saying there was anything wrong with yours in particular, but everyone including me would be well served by time to reflect and by a slower pace of conversation.
Regards,
Zooko
Posted Apr 10, 2011 18:31 UTC (Sun)
by spaetz (guest, #32870)
[Link]
I agree. Such a 5-minute embargo would be quite useful indeed. For everything more hot-headed than this, there could be an IRC channel :-).
Posted Apr 10, 2011 18:37 UTC (Sun)
by jrn (subscriber, #64214)
[Link]
Posted Apr 10, 2011 17:49 UTC (Sun)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link]
After that disagreement over the process I had some follow-up correspondence with the European Voice. I won't disclose the details of that discussion, but the net effect is that I was always listed as the winner of the award (currently on this page), also in the European Voice weekly, and the European Voice quoted me in connection with Oracle/Sun, which I believe demonstrates that neither they nor I had any problem with a past disagreement.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 17:57 UTC (Sun)
by cyd (guest, #4153)
[Link] (3 responses)
I am flattered and pleased that you have deigned to reply! Not even in my dreams have I conceived of conversing, even over the Internet, with someone worthy enough to have been credited in three separate (!) Blizzard Entertainment titles. However, I sense that you are being overly coy in stating your qualifications. No doubt there are numerous employee-of-the-month and high school yearbook awards that you have omitted to mention, due to a misplaced sense of modesty. Please, don't hold back on this account.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 18:01 UTC (Sun)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 20:11 UTC (Sun)
by elanthis (guest, #6227)
[Link]
I know you're responding to someone claiming you're a nobody, but just as a friendly (really) bit of advice: waving your fame-dick around in public just makes you look like you're trying to compensate for something else, and doesn't impress anybody at all.
The correct response to the original accusation of anonymity would be to just say "google me" and leave it at that, if you felt a need for a response at all.
Posted Apr 12, 2011 4:05 UTC (Tue)
by malor (guest, #2973)
[Link]
And your attacks on PJ are disgusting; it doesn't matter in the least who she is. Not one iota. Deeds, not words, Florian, that's what's important. And she's had a profound and very positive impact on Linux directly, and Free Software more generally.
Even if she's actually a balding gay man in a rented bread truck outside Madison, WI, with absolutely terrible shoes, she still made a very real difference in the world. Any noise from you to the contrary is simply that, noise.
Those of us who measure by deeds see right through your ham-handed and transparent character assassination attempts.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 21:54 UTC (Sun)
by frnknstn (guest, #68647)
[Link] (6 responses)
From your Wikipedia page, I saw a link to this story, attributed to you:
Then I realised /exactly/ who you are. You are one of the guys who was claiming that Google infringed on Linux's copyrights, because their libc replacement used kernel headers.
I think that's the crux of your confusion: It doesn't matter if PJ is real, or fake. It doesn't matter if she's a woman, man, space alien, shill, or a fat dude in his underwear posting from his mom's basement. It doesn't matter if she was mean to your friends. And it doesn't matter that you have pals at a game company, excel at shameless self-promotion on a self-promotion website, or that you gave legal advice to Real Madrid.
Hell, it wouldn't even matter if you played in goal for Real Madrid.
What matters is that PJ and Groklaw, for the most part, GOT THINGS RIGHT. To a society that aspires to be a meritocracy, like the Linux community does, that is the most important thing. Maybe the harsh reactions to your friend's more measured words were extreme, or even sensationalist. Maybe she should have hedged her bets more. Maybe her style of writing misrepresented how skilled the "bad guy's" lawyers were, misrepresented how close or complicated the case was.
That was all due to what PJ actually is.
She isn't a big-shot lawyer, or some kind of Nobel peace prize winner like you. She wasn't a high-paid 'analyst', and I have no idea if she is some kind of lawyer-wannabe like you so cruelly said. (As an aside, that comment actually made me think you were some kind of fake, a troll using a fancy name to get legitimacy, hoping to prop up his arguments with some grand imagined past. The level of presumtion required to assume that every paralegal secretly wants to be you is almost unfathomable.)
You, sir, may be a better lawyer than PJ will ever be, but she is a better at what she is in that blog: a journalist, whose insights into both law and open source provided correct commentary for the rest of us. That is why Groklaw will be rightly missed.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 1:20 UTC (Mon)
by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164)
[Link] (5 responses)
I've never been very interested in legal stuff so I didn't read Groklaw religiously, but I've read most of what was linked from LWN - and mostly it was interesting to me. Usually I knew not enough of the background to comment on it in any intelligent way - so I took the truth for granted.
But I've now seen a few articles I DID have background on, and boy, were they uninformed, silly ranting. So frankly, I don't take Groklaw serious anymore - if the articles I did NOT know much about are as silly as the ones I DID know about, well, it's not worth much.
(it's similar to the science page of most newspapers - ever seen them comment on IT? If the rest of the articles are as stupid as those, well, I don't think they're worth reading anymore. I just hope they're not)
Posted Apr 11, 2011 1:23 UTC (Mon)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link] (2 responses)
Sure but if someone is raising such questions, they need to disclose who they are getting paid by as well especially if there is a potential conflict of interest. In that sense, it is ironic to see who is being very loud about it.
Posted May 30, 2011 14:48 UTC (Mon)
by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 30, 2011 15:40 UTC (Mon)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 10:34 UTC (Mon)
by csamuel (✭ supporter ✭, #2624)
[Link]
Groklaw accepts donations via PayPal and also has a CafePress shop. In light of all this unnecessary hand-wringing over PJ perhaps the "I'm PJ" mousepad might make a nice gift for people.. ;-)
http://www.cafepress.com.au/cp/moredetails.aspx?productNo...
Posted Apr 11, 2011 12:33 UTC (Mon)
by frnknstn (guest, #68647)
[Link]
The quality of reporting in specialist fields always seems to be poor to terrible. I am a big fan of badscience.net, and all the great work it's owner does to identify poor medical journalism practices.
I think that groklaw is a bit better than most sources; as you say, IT-related stories in newspapers are appaling, but groklaw's coverage is better than them, at least. I also prefer silly, uninformed ranting to coverage that serious, informed, but just plain wrong.
I also didn't follow groklaw's coverage, except when linked to from one of my regular news sites. Perhaps some of the silliness was already filtered out for me. If it isn't too much trouble, I would like to see a link of a groklaw story you take objection to.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 16:45 UTC (Mon)
by felixfix (subscriber, #242)
[Link]
Posted Apr 10, 2011 16:16 UTC (Sun)
by leoc (guest, #39773)
[Link] (1 responses)
Really? REALLY?
"I expect one of them -- or perhaps a group of them -- will go too far at some point and do significant damage to the open-source movement, the ongoing litigation with SCO or their employers. I strongly believe that if September 11th showed us anything, it was that zealots of any movement represent a huge risk to that movement because they do not consider the repercussions of their actions." - Rob Enderle invoking the violent deaths of thousands of innocent people to attack the linux community.
"Freetard" - The tag Dan Lyons' uses for articles about Richard Stallman and the FOSS movement.
"These guys [SCO] in Utah are no dummies. The crunchies in the Linux community should be paying more attention." - Dan Lyons also invoking militant rhetoric about the Linux community in Forbes.
You might want to consider different people to defend if you want to claim the moral high ground here.
Posted Apr 12, 2011 18:00 UTC (Tue)
by zeke123 (guest, #60445)
[Link]
You might be tempted to call Mueller a troll.
Many respected FLOSS activists and journalists HAVE met PJ.
Listen to enough FUD and BS in your life (as a developer Ive developed a healthy aversion to our marketing dept BS) and you can spot it very easily.
Having him praise these 3 prince clowns of disinformation confirms it.
Its hard to find one FLOSS personality who hasnt figured Mueller out by now. Let's hope he goes back to video game marketing soon and rids our communities of his poisonous words and lies.
PS: Has anyone ever seen Mueller and Enderle in the same room together?
Posted Apr 10, 2011 16:35 UTC (Sun)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
PJ's reputation stands or falls on Groklaw. Nothing more, nothing less. Not on who she is, what gender or nationality nor who her parents were nor who employed her.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 21:23 UTC (Sun)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link]
I don't know (or care) about your past, present, or future employers very much. I do care about your views, and how consistent they are with other information I gather. That is what makes somebody a reputable source (or not) in my eyes. And I'm sorry, Enderle and O'Gara have shown to my complete satisfaction that they have no clue on the technical side under discussion, and get hoodwinked by the most transparent smoke-and-mirrors setups even while they are suposedly specifically looking critically at the evidence offered. They might be business-savy all they can, if they have no clue on whatever said business stands and can't (or won't) vet their evidence, their comments are at most of amusement value. See? Acording to the criteria above, your credibility just moved down a few notches here.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 4:12 UTC (Mon)
by vblum (guest, #1151)
[Link]
I spent some time over at Groklaw defending you. I now regret this.
Groklaw was right in many things, and a forum for rather open debate. At the very least, it was their right to publish at their site what they believed. You might at least acknowledge the enormous effort and value that the site represented.
Instead, I read yet another smear attack. And this is an open one. Use your own blog for that, not LWN.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 13:22 UTC (Mon)
by sitaram (guest, #5959)
[Link]
I stopped reading more than the summary from groklaw a long time ago simply due to the "tl;dr" syndrome, so I am pretty sure I was not influenced by PJ.
IMO Enderle is biased. Quite unethically so.
I will, however, freely admit that all this is more than 2-3 years old, so if you ask me to show examples I will probably have to dig a lot.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 15:56 UTC (Mon)
by RogerOdle (subscriber, #60791)
[Link] (3 responses)
What is your expertise? Programming? How does that qualify you to spout opinions on the GPL, a legal document? You have a bad reputation because you too often speak before you think. Groklaw has embarrassed you in the past because they did the research that you should have done. In other words, they did your job.
Groklaw speaks for itself. It has had a positive effect in the open source world and the legal world. It has earned respect because of its integrity.
You do everyone disrespect by suggesting that PJ has some unnatural influence on them.
As for not coming out in public. Society does not respect the privacy of "public" individuals. They can not go out in public and do the ordinary things that we lesser folk get to enjoy. They have to endure mob scenes, strangers being overly familiar in public places, and even death threats. None of these things help get the work done and the work is the only thing of real importance here. I would like to know the real reason that you need to know who PJ is? The fact is that you do not need to know who PJ is.
So leave PJ alone and go back to your fudding.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 16:02 UTC (Mon)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (2 responses)
What is your expertise? Programming? What matters in my case is the breadth and depth of my expertise spanning the technical, economic, political and legal aspects of issues. Groklaw has embarrassed you in the past because they did the research that you should have done. In other words, they did your job. A bold, baseless and grossly inaccurate claim. You don't provide an example because there isn't even one.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 16:54 UTC (Mon)
by felixfix (subscriber, #242)
[Link]
I suspect you know this, too, otherwise you wouldn't put so much effort into praising yourself and embarrassing yourself.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 19:00 UTC (Mon)
by RogerOdle (subscriber, #60791)
[Link]
People that know support their positions by citing knowledge.
People that do not know cite credentials.
This is a classic tactic in retoric. If facts won't support your position then cite expertise. It is the reason there is so much bad science is out there. "I must be right because I wear a white lab coat."
I don't mean to embarrass you but your credentials are showing. I just thought you should know.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 16:22 UTC (Mon)
by cmorgan (guest, #71980)
[Link]
We *should* distrust people like Dan Lyons. (Maureen O'Gara also tends to write pro-MS stories). The guy wrote an entire article with information given to him by SCO without verifying that any of that information was true. He did the right thing by apologizing about it but the damage was done. If he had done his job it might have tempered some of the crazy FUD that was thrown around in the early days instead of fueling the concern that all of F/OSS and Linux was going to get hammered by SCO.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 17:35 UTC (Mon)
by ralphdegennaro (guest, #35718)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 19:53 UTC (Mon)
by Corkscrew (guest, #65853)
[Link]
Easily. She told us stuff, we went away and fact-checked (well, I did anyway), we found out that she was correct, rinse and repeat.
Since when is reputation intrinsically linked to having an employer? I know several unemployed people (ex-students in search of a job, mostly) who I would absolutely trust as sources of information. And, on the other hand, there are a lot of gainfully-employed fully-qualified lawyers who I wouldn't trust if they told me the sky was blue.
"The problem is that Groklaw has constantly tried to capitalize on many people's desire for simple fairy-tale-like black-and-white views."
I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I got an order of magnitude more sophisticated in my understanding of law when I started reading Groklaw.
"The net effect of that big brainwashing effort is that some of the more credulous and less informed people now distrust a very smart analyst like Rob Enderle, very smart journalists like Maureen O'Gara and Dan Lyons, or a very smart author like Ed Bott, only because they comment on certain issues with greater sanity than Groklaw."
I haven't followed Groklaw regularly in a while, and my memory is a bit hazy. Could you link to examples of "character assassination", so we can check for ourselves whether or not it was justified?
The only one of the authors you mention who rings an instant bell is Maureen O'Gara - wasn't she the one who tried to "out" PJ by posting what was allegedly her ageing mother's home address?
I remember that PJ never had any qualms about sneering at people she thought were talking garbage (especially if they had a financial interest in the situation). But to me at the time her comments mostly seemed appropriate - I recall that, whenever I checked what people had actually written, I felt PJ's criticisms were deserved. As I say, though, that was a long time ago for me.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 10:55 UTC (Sun)
by SilverWave (guest, #55000)
[Link]
I should say "Stop embarrassing yourself".
But as I only have contempt for you and your continued attempts for self-aggrandisement...
Posted Apr 10, 2011 20:14 UTC (Sun)
by elanthis (guest, #6227)
[Link] (2 responses)
Did you know that there are video game developers who get threatened over the phone, or even face-to-face at conference, and get their cars vandalized, just because some fucked up nerdling didn't like some recent game in their favorite franchise?
If people get violent and dangerous over _that_, I can only imagine what some people would do to a high-profile polarizing figure like PJ were they to find her/his/its/their/our contact information or address.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 4:33 UTC (Mon)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (1 responses)
I've done some work in connection with soccer and many of the people I dealt with there are famous and soccer club officials are from time to time also threatened, but it's hard to find any incident in which anything ever happens, at least in countries in which the rule of law is intact.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 14:43 UTC (Thu)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link]
Lucky you. Others just are more cautious, or value their privacy a lot more. Let them be, they have the same right to talk as you do.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 12:46 UTC (Mon)
by forlwn (guest, #63934)
[Link]
Those who fail to understand the world of business, are no good.
They would certainly also fail to pay to persons like you to troll in this forum.
Of course.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 15:09 UTC (Mon)
by salvarsan (guest, #18257)
[Link] (4 responses)
If, in fact, you are he, you've probably known that PJ was outed by Maureen O'Gara and her private investigator several years ago.
This makes your commentary all the more perplexing and, far be it from me to suggest that it smacks of ad hominem, brings in to question your motivations for saying something which is not so.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 16:03 UTC (Mon)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (3 responses)
But that isn't a substitute for "PJ" being more transparent.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 16:50 UTC (Mon)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link] (2 responses)
You do understand the meaning and undertones conveyed by the word «harridan», don't you? If that's acceptable language for you, you should also accept the following with grace.
See, PJ has many flaws and clearly showed bias sometimes but her reporting gave me an extremely interesting insight into the legal processes in the US. Even if (and even *when*) her *opinions* were biased, her *reporting* was very good and very well documented.
While you, sir, are just a thundering gobshite.
@lwn staff: feel free to remove this comment if you find the word «harridan» less offensive; otherwise please remove this comment *and* its parent comment.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 16:52 UTC (Mon)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 12, 2011 12:13 UTC (Tue)
by clump (subscriber, #27801)
[Link]
Posted Apr 12, 2011 23:30 UTC (Tue)
by kmself (guest, #11565)
[Link]
Get off your high horse, Florian. Some of the work you do is cool. A lot of what you say makes you sound like an attention-hungry whore.
PJ for whatever her reasons values her privacy. So be it.
Shoot for more grace and style points.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 1:26 UTC (Sun)
by SilverWave (guest, #55000)
[Link]
Still I'm a little sad nevertheless.
:'(
Posted Apr 10, 2011 5:13 UTC (Sun)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (50 responses)
I'm still not 100% sure that Groklaw will really shut down soon. Groklaw's announcement could be a last-gasp effort to provoke an outpouring of support (in various ways, shapes and forms) from companies and community members. But if it actually does, which is of course very likely, the primary reason will have been that Groklaw clearly lost relevance. It was largely a "one-hit wonder" in connection with SCO, but over the last several years I think it has just become a small echo chamber -- almost like a sectarian group that unconditionally follows a mystery-shrouded leader. Seriously, who else in the whole open source context did never reveal his or her identity to the slightest extent? There was something that the person or team hiding behind the "PJ" avatar had to hide. With an objective, rational approach it was easy to understand that "PJ" did not strike an acceptable balance between privacy and publicity. Someone who participates in highly public debates, claims to provide more transparency about suspected connections and comes up with conspiracy theories concerning people like me (although my background is well-documented and verifiable) must also present themself at some point at a public event and explain their professional background. But a lot of people thought that their "savior" should not be called into question and not be subject to the same scrutiny "she" wanted to subject others to. I always found that absurd. When the avatar named "PJ" received an EFF award (which "she" never personally accepted in order to continue to shroud "herself" in mystery), the number of people congratulating "her" in the related discussion thread was fairly limited. When I read discussions on other topics, I also had the impression that the number of distinct participants was small. On the occasion of the announcement of Groklaw's shutdown (which for now is just an announcement), many people appear to think only about the good that Groklaw presumably did and tend to forget its dark side: its devious censorship ("sandboxing") of user comments designed to suppress dissent and fabricate consensus in its community in the eyes of third parties. There are other negative things to point out as well. For example, a headline that cheers a patent aggressor on ("IBM is free to sue the pants off TurboHercules") was very shocking to see almost exactly a year ago. Equally shocking was the fact that Groklaw made a demonstrably false claim about IBM's patent pledge and didn't correct the article even after user comments highlighted the "error", which was clearly intentional as far as I could see. Groklaw quoted from an IBM statement made months before the patent pledge was announced and then claimed the related statement was made "when" IBM announced the pledge (and limited its scope). Anyone who clicked on the links could actually see the dates, but Groklaw knew that most people wouldn't do so, and wanted to mislead as many people as possible. That claim was the first statement in that article on TurboHercules. Only the small group I mentioned will truly miss Groklaw if and when it's gone. It no longer served an important purpose. More recently, Groklaw has been all about yesterday's problems. Today, the big issues connecting open source and intellectual property are primarily about patents. Groklaw often didn't see the forest because of all the trees, or it didn't want its audience to see the forest and therefore confused people with all the trees (such as absolutely irrelevant procedural detail)and set up some artifical trees in addition, including fake trees like the IBM patent pledge limitation I mentioned above. Today's most important IP issue in this industry relates to the major smartphones disputes, and I will continue to develop material like these battlemaps and reference lists -- stuff that Groklaw never managed to do during all those years.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 6:11 UTC (Sun)
by dkite (guest, #4577)
[Link]
It was one of these situations where an individual can make a difference, and she did.
You have your battles, and I hope they go well for you. You need a PJ to publicize the issues and gather support to your cause.
I haven't read Groklaw since the Novell stuff. I as many others were interested in the news that was presented, the availability of the documents, and the news of the decisions. Someone spent hours putting it all together. I appreciated the work, and wish PJ well in whatever she wants to do.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 6:22 UTC (Sun)
by freebird (guest, #43129)
[Link]
The stated reason for closing the site is that it's over,
The only sense I can make out of your ranting is that it's all sour grapes.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 7:34 UTC (Sun)
by brianomahoney (guest, #6206)
[Link] (10 responses)
The fact is that PJ is widely respected for her hard work and balance,
You are NOT.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 7:41 UTC (Sun)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 7:56 UTC (Sun)
by swetland (guest, #63414)
[Link] (4 responses)
*polite clapping*
One might find allegations about "propaganda meant to misinform a community" especially ironic given this context. I certainly do.
Who do you work for again, Mr Mueller?
Posted Apr 10, 2011 8:07 UTC (Sun)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (3 responses)
I publish my own opinions only and we've had the question before.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 8:54 UTC (Sun)
by job (guest, #670)
[Link]
Posted Apr 10, 2011 9:58 UTC (Sun)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link]
Posted Apr 13, 2011 2:52 UTC (Wed)
by CChittleborough (subscriber, #60775)
[Link]
Posted Apr 10, 2011 16:56 UTC (Sun)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Do you *try* to come across as unpleasant, sneering, and jealous, or is it native talent?
Posted Apr 10, 2011 12:30 UTC (Sun)
by pjm (guest, #2080)
[Link] (2 responses)
I don't know what balance is intended by the above, but I largely stopped reading groklaw precisely because it seemed that the coverage was unbalanced: that groklaw was good at digging up what appeared to be problems in SCO's case, but you wouldn't want to rely on it for a balanced, unbiased portrayal of the issues.
Note, that's just my own assessment, made with the amount of care appropriate to readership decisions. (Someone else said that the bias was more generally a pro-IBM bias; I wouldn't know about that.)
I should add that if groklaw is just the product of an individual writing in their spare time about something that interests them, then maybe that one-sidedness is just a reaction to some underhandedness on SCO's part and an attempt to redress the balance. I.e. the lack of balance doesn't necessarily reflect badly on the person; but whatever tributes you may pay to the groklaw work, I wouldn't praise its balanced writing myself.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 22:45 UTC (Mon)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
The problem with modern reporting is that, if the issue under discussion is black-and-white with only one sensible position, the media feel *obliged* to give "balance" by quoting some kook with a clearly unhinged agenda, but they quote him in all seriousness!
Fortunately, gravity was discovered many years ago, otherwise the press would be fawning all over "karmic levitation" to try to give "balance" to the "alleged discovery"!
Cheers,
Posted Apr 12, 2011 22:27 UTC (Tue)
by pjm (guest, #2080)
[Link]
However, given the slanging match that seems to have swallowed the rest of the comments on this article, I don't think we'll gain much by discussing ideals in journalism any further here.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 8:17 UTC (Sun)
by bjacob (guest, #58566)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 8:24 UTC (Sun)
by bjacob (guest, #58566)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 11, 2011 0:24 UTC (Mon)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link]
So not useless at all. Unethical and manipulative..but far from useless.
It's actually sort of refreshing to see someone quoting themselves without the typical layer of indirection. It's a very Donald Trump sort of thing to do. And by that I mean "classy{tm}."
-jef
Posted Apr 10, 2011 9:49 UTC (Sun)
by Felix_the_Mac (guest, #32242)
[Link]
On the other hand Florian Mueller is an unpleasant piece of work as demonstrated by his comments in this thread.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 14:57 UTC (Sun)
by tgall (subscriber, #217)
[Link] (29 responses)
The initial lauch of Growlaw was most welcome. What wasn't to like? It was a playful mix of legalinformation and a sort of "stick it to the man" attitude.
Over time however the hiding of PJ does seriously make me doubt "her" existence. To remain anonymous seems contrary to open source principles, at least if you consider transparency or open communication part of those principles.
In some ways it's like accepting code from Anonymous. PJ's "code" was great "code", it seemed to hit the mark, and there was quality there, but you have to wonder about who is behind the mask. There is no reason for PJ to remain anonymous. The SCO battle has been won, stand up, take your bow, accept your awards, good heavens do the open source world a favor and speak at a few conferences.
The patent war however is not over. Nor are the lawsuits which could have substantial affect on open source, consider the many cases surrounding Android. If anything the need for Groklaw is as great as when it started, at least the concept of supportive analysis involving open source legal matters.
But here's the thing, if the only motivation of Groklaw was to vet the circumstances around SCO, Microsoft and Novell it certainly did that. What if PJ was actually being paid to do so? Case over, no more pay, no more website. Does it devalue the work? No, no more than Kernel engineers going to work for a company. If anything it does define an altruistic work vs a sponsored one that might reflect the desires of the sponsor. Without the removal of the anonymous mask we are but left to wonder.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 16:58 UTC (Sun)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (25 responses)
(And so what if she was? Did it make what she said less accurate?)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 18:01 UTC (Sun)
by foobarinator (guest, #74231)
[Link] (24 responses)
In this way, the censorship was not any different than what Sarah Palin's facebook moderators do. The only narrative allowed on the form is the one that agreed with the site's owner.
There is a simple experiment that anyone can try on their own, running some of the online statistical gender detectors on Groklaw's writings, this is one:
http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php
or:
http://bookblog.net/gender/genie.php
Some of the entries are definitely written by males, while some others are definitely written by females.
PJ liked to run hatchet jobs on anyone they saw as an enemy of their cause, digging personal information and trying to smear them charges of guilt by association. Yet, for someone that demanded that others be transparent, never disclosed its funding source.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 18:35 UTC (Sun)
by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784)
[Link]
I think you mean "appear by the statistical analyses of these sites to have probably been written by", not "are definitely written by". From one of the very sites you cite:
Posted Apr 10, 2011 23:59 UTC (Sun)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link]
Now I know we live in a facebook survey dominated era of information gathering and that survey's which porport to tell you which muppet your are or which Harry Potter character you are are highly accurate and scientificly proven mechanisms for divining essential truths about one's self. But wow, these gender analyzers don't seem to be up to that level of accuracy.
But if you will indulge me...
These gender analyzers are patently stupid. Ranking works like "with" and "we" a feminine while ranking "a" and "are" as masculine. Are you freakin kidding me? Basic English grammar constructions scored for gender. Moronic.
The people who create such scoring should be ashamed. What's next we are going to go in and start scoring the syntax of python scripts for gender? Clearly the itemize() call is feminine while the enumerate() call is masculine.
Anyone who holds these things up as a credible way to decipher gender in a writer deserve to be sentenced to a remedial refresher course in basic English grammar and syntax with their mental peer group of 8 year olds.
-jef"Apologizes to Ms. Bacon for dragging her into this in an effort to define the good name of Mr. Jones"spaleta
Posted Apr 11, 2011 5:31 UTC (Mon)
by eru (subscriber, #2753)
[Link] (1 responses)
I have been following Groklaw since the beginning (admittedly less frequently lately, but daily or more often in the early years, when it seriouosly looked like SCO will bring Linux down), and I don't recall PJ ever having dug up actual personal information about anyone. She did try to find out about business connections, current and prior employers, and public comments, which is stuff that is very relevant in judging the expertise and biases of the characters in the drama. But I don't think those can be considered personal information in this context.
By contrast, to see the worst example of the kind of digging the opposite side did, look up the Maureen O'Gara case in Google. One link here.
http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/infrastructure/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=163104408.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 17:25 UTC (Mon)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link]
PJ didn't just refuse to look up other people's personal information. She was very careful to redact personal information from the documents she was citing, even though in many cases the original document was available for anyone who really wanted to know. She bent over backward to protect other people's privacy, which is what you'd hope for- but sadly too rarely see- from somebody who wanted her own privacy respected.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 0:50 UTC (Thu)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link] (19 responses)
1. I doubt much of those tools - I've seen too many errors.
2. Some of the entries were written by males, some by females. While PJ wrote most articles, there are numerous guest articles by experts explaining either technical issues or nuances of the law (by lawyers).
3. I saw many disagreements on Groklaw. While I can't guarantee some disagreements weren't removed, it clearly was not universal. Most of the stuff I saw being removed was not because of disagreements, but because they failed to follow the posting policy, to specifically include language.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 4:45 UTC (Thu)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (18 responses)
Concerning censorship, yes, you'll actually find that totalitarian regimes like the former German Democratic Republic formally allowed opposition parties and often even give them seats in parliament, but it's hand-picked opposition. Same thing with disagreements that Groklaw didn't censor:
What Groklaw liked best was dissent expressed in ridiculous ways. Those comments weren't censored because they served Groklaw's purpose of fabricating consensus.
What got censored instead were reasonable, perfectly polite, on-topic comments, or links to such material.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 7:54 UTC (Thu)
by jthill (subscriber, #56558)
[Link] (17 responses)
Mistakes, bad decisions, are not always errors of commission. PJ is willing to err on the side of commission. That takes guts because anyone knows it'll excite the real trolls. It draws a lot of attention, and there are really only two sources of information about the decisions she made: the people she banned and Groklaw itself; and Groklaw doesn't say much about it. She wrote at least one article on the general subject, I've been idly poking around for it and haven't turned it up yet, but all in all trolls do their damage by wasting good people's time with pointless characterization and innuendo and drama, and she and her team have better things to do.
It grew to encompass a lot of related things, but Groklaw got its start as an expression of personal affront at what she and many others saw as a blatant scam. But PJ didn't stop with simple perception, and she didn't speak from whatever she had on hand. PJ worked at it, argued in support of her viewpoint with every shred of evidence she could dig up, and then she started getting help.
It turns out that everyone who matters to the case (except, of course, SCO) agrees with her. That would be all the defendants, and the judge of course, and the jury. PJ's opinion itself never mattered any more than mine or yours or the Pope's. The facts she and her crew dug up wound up having an effect: they mattered. That Groklaw was a place to get stuff done mattered. Groklaw was a team, *her* team, and you were on it or you weren't.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 14:13 UTC (Thu)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (16 responses)
Not quite. AFAIR, the way the undesired-comment suppression on Groklaw worked was that from your point of view you were »on the team« – you did get to see your own comment, after all –, but from everyone else's point of view you didn't exist at all, since your comment would be suppressed in their version of the page. Clever ;^)
Posted Apr 14, 2011 14:33 UTC (Thu)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (14 responses)
You are completely mistaken. I am a subscriber of Groklaw from the very beginning. Even so I did see comments dissapear (seldom, but that could just have been timing). And the few comments I did see deleted were because of blatant transgressions to the site policy (foul language, virulent ad hominem attacks, publishing private details about people), never because of contents (and if you look over the site, you will see many opinions that differ markedly from PJ's). Yes, there have been a few "subscriber only" articles, but mainly surveys on stuff like opinions on archiving the site at the Library of Congress, asks for help with voluminous transcriptions, and other internal(ish) stuff.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 15:11 UTC (Thu)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (12 responses)
This is not what I said. Of course some comments have been removed outright due to PJ's bad-language policy. What I am talking about is comments which, in a perfectly courteous manner, expressed opinions that went against the party line and then silently disappeared from view for everyone except the original commenter (who would then have to resort to looking at the site from another computer to even find out about this).
I used to be a regular Groklaw reader for a fairly long time but mostly stopped doing so after I had this happen to a comment of mine. I'm all for rational, polite discussion and I would have been perfectly able to handle a »You're not welcome, stay away« from PJ – at least then one knows where one stands! Considering that I have lots of uses for my time other than commenting on Groklaw, PJ leading me to believe that my comments have been properly posted while in fact I'm the only person who can actually see them is (in my opinion at least) a bit unfair. I'm aware that for many people PJ essentially walks on water, but it must be said in the interest of balance that the tricky comment suppression mechanism is something which sets Groklaw off from other blogs, and which I personally would not readily associate with the idea of civil, open-minded discourse.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 18:40 UTC (Thu)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (11 responses)
As I said, I followed Groklaw daily (at least) for years, and saw few comments deleted. And never one that "in a perfectly courteous manner, expressed opinions that went against the party line." I saw a lot of comments that went "against the party line," rarely "courteously," and said comments are presumably still to be found there. It should be easy enough to search for Florian Mueller's comments as relevant examples, there were others.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 18:53 UTC (Thu)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (10 responses)
You can find examples of polite, on-topic comments deleted by Groklaw in this PDF document on Scribd.com, which contains numerous screenshots and, toward the end, references to blog posts and forum comments in which others described similar observations.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 20:31 UTC (Thu)
by jthill (subscriber, #56558)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Apr 14, 2011 21:32 UTC (Thu)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (8 responses)
This is what in the business we call an »ad hominem« attack. What happened in the cases cited by Florian also happened to various other people, some of which have spoken up in this discussion. It does not matter that it was Florian who actually went to the trouble of documenting PJ's suppression of undesired comments (»dog poisoner« or not), and he may even have had a personal axe to grind doing so; what does matter as far as I am concerned is that the suppression occurred at all, which is nothing to do with Florian personally. Arguing that Groklaw is PJ's blog and she gets to do what she wants on it, including arranging for tricky and unusual methods of getting rid of comments she personally does not agree with, is fine by me. It's her privilege, and so far nobody is actually forced to read (or comment on) Groklaw. However, in my opinion, this alone disqualifies her as the candidate for immediate sainthood that many people apparently perceive her to be. It may be acceptable on a blog to completely remove comments which contain offensive language, but suppressing politely-worded comments whose content one does not like, in the manner that PJ demonstrably did in various cases, is not behaviour I personally would associate with the owner and operator of an award-winning blog extolling software freedom.
Posted Apr 15, 2011 2:34 UTC (Fri)
by jthill (subscriber, #56558)
[Link] (7 responses)
If you want to see the line between rebuke and ad hominem, step from my post to Mueller's link.
PJ deletes such attempts on sight as the work of trolls, and all your objections amount to is "sometimes she gets it wrong". Endlessly discussing whether any such decision is wrong would also achieve what the trolls were after.
So, therefore, what?
Also, please point out anyone angling to beatify PJ so we can properly mock them. She had a few years of genuine glory, not many people get that. But that's about all.
Posted Apr 15, 2011 6:49 UTC (Fri)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (6 responses)
If the Groklaw definition of a troll is »somebody whose contributions PJ doesn't like«, you may even be right. However, if, for example, in the discussion of the Hercules virtual machine OS licensing/patent issue, the main developer of the actual software in question steps in and tries to present his side of what is factually being discussed, that is not what I would consider »trolling«. If anything, the Groklaw community should have been glad that Jay Maynard took time out of his undoubtedly busy schedule to contribute constructively (by correcting some apparent factual misconceptions on PJ's part) to the site. Instead he gets ejected, essentially because he disagrees with PJ on some things where to an outside observer it is painfully obvious that he is right and PJ is wrong. I wouldn't exactly describe this as »sometimes she gets it wrong«.
As far as »endless discussions« are concerned, I would much rather see a constructive discussion of the actual subject matter at hand than one about whether it was right or not to kick somebody off the site for purely personal reasons. In my opinion, the right thing for PJ to do after Jay Maynard corrected some of her factual errors would have been to apologise and thank him, then move the discussion along in the light of what she'd just learned. What Jay Maynard did was not »trolling«, and painting it as such just to bolster the notion that oh, PJ sometimes hits the wrong button, no big deal, please don't make a large issue of it since that would make PJ look bad, strikes me as disingenious. Kicking somebody off a site should be the very last thing one considers, and definitely not for constructive contributions to a factual discussion.
Posted Apr 15, 2011 11:00 UTC (Fri)
by jthill (subscriber, #56558)
[Link] (5 responses)
Mueller's /. post on the subject was my first contact with his work. I've learned to be suspicious of claims which, if true, would be outrageous, and this one (let alone his blog post, which reeks) had the smell of propaganda about it. So I read the letters. Yup. It's the tired old propagandist's recipe for leveraging confirmation bias: manufactured outrage and vile characterizations based on some more or less subtle misrepresentation, relying on the knowledge that most people when gulled into outrage stop thinking.
And this is just more of the same.
That's so brazen it's actually funny, in a "the other possible explanations are distinctly uncharitable, so I'll regard it as a first-rate sendup of people who've never seriously faced the question, who do you think you're fooling?" kind of way.
So anyway,
Because, as it stands, what been offered so far is most succinctly epitomized as a vast disparity between your public pronouncements and the actual evidence.
Posted Apr 15, 2011 19:17 UTC (Fri)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (4 responses)
Whatever. I'm not opening that can of worms. Let me just state for the record that I believe (and have commented on LWN.net to that effect when the issue was ongoing) that as far as I am concerned IBM is perfectly free to license or not license their software to whoever they want. In my own personal opinion I don't think it would be any skin off IBM's nose for them to offer reasonably-priced no-support licenses to Hercules users (it's not as if people are queuing to replace their IBM z/OS mainframes with PCs) but that is neither here nor there.
Please leave Florian Mueller out of this. My issue is with PJ's suppressing comments by and/or kicking out people she does not agree with, in general. It happened to me and various other people other than Florian Mueller. What Florian Mueller said or didn't say, on Groklaw, Slashdot, or anywhere else, is completely immaterial to the issue at hand.
I just spent way too much time on Groklaw looking at comments on the original article dealing with the TurboHercules issue, and I have failed to see any comment of Jay Maynard's that could fairly be considered »trolling« In fact, given what various other participants in the discussion throw at him he comes across as unusually polite and level-headed (IMHO anyway). I would like to invite anybody who is interested enough in the issue to look at the same article and form their own opinion, lest I be accused of cherry-picking evidence. Ten minutes or so should be enough to get the gist of what is going on.
Posted Apr 15, 2011 21:12 UTC (Fri)
by jthill (subscriber, #56558)
[Link] (3 responses)
If you kept on and on for days offering nothing but accusations on Groklaw as you're doing here, it's no wonder she started killfiling posts. It's just a matter of cleanliness.
Posted Apr 15, 2011 22:57 UTC (Fri)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (2 responses)
No I didn't. That was vonbrand. Go check. (Also I'm intrigued that you apparently expect me to point you to some comment of mine that PJ has canceled, as »evidence«. Duh. The whole point of PJ suppressing comments she doesn't agree with is so they're gone.)
Anyway, I'm out of this discussion. I gave up on Groklaw long ago and won't miss it at all; I don't need to waste even more of my life arguing with PJ's fan crew here on LWN.
Posted Apr 15, 2011 23:09 UTC (Fri)
by jthill (subscriber, #56558)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 16, 2011 9:18 UTC (Sat)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link]
Nope, that's me commenting on you commenting on Florian commenting on vonbrand, who pointed to Florian's comments. Hardly »opening this conversation«. You're also quoting me out of context.
And this is really the last you're going to hear from me in this discussion.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 15:21 UTC (Thu)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link]
I wouldn't know that the comment has been disappeared if not for viewing the article without logging in. Clever indeed.
It's important to realise, that PJ is no saint, she can be indeed highly biased at times and she does have her pet peeves; most of that is visible in her comments, usually. (Bruce Byfield is quite right that the overall quality of Groklaw deteriorated after 2008.)
And it's equally important to understand, that all of the (valid) complaints are mostly of no consequence when it comes to the quality of her work (explaining legal issues, showing how the legal procedures work, etc. etc.)
And, frankly, the venerable Mr. Mueller here is much more venomous than PJ; his style is more similar to the Sam Varghese / Roy Schestowitz type of venom-spitting and hatred-inducing writings.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 19:48 UTC (Thu)
by jthill (subscriber, #56558)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 0:28 UTC (Mon)
by tridge (guest, #26906)
[Link]
I really admire the fantastic work she has done.
Cheers, Tridge
Posted Apr 11, 2011 9:41 UTC (Mon)
by linuxrocks123 (subscriber, #34648)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 12, 2011 22:57 UTC (Tue)
by gus3 (guest, #61103)
[Link]
Sure, "just joking." That's easy enough to say after the damage is done.
Yes, there really was a conspiracy against Pamela Jones.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 8:30 UTC (Mon)
by tuxmania (guest, #70024)
[Link] (2 responses)
Frankly Mr Muller, your credibility with the open source movement is nill, especially after the Android debacle where even Torvalds spoke out against you. Its painfully obvious you have a hidden agenda. Nobody listens to your propaganda anymore as time has proven you wrong every single time.
PJ on the other hand has been right all along and despite being told otherwise by the whole media industry she stood her ground and proved by relentless work that she was right. Not in her own words but by digging up evidence in support of what we all already knew. No matter who she is she was right and you and your friends was dead wrong.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 8:54 UTC (Mon)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (1 responses)
I'm in favor of a strong GPL, not against the GPL. I defended the GPL in connection with Oracle's acquisition of MySQL, as you can read here. I believe the GPL should not just be "scrubbed" from GPL'd programs the way Google did it. Torvalds said that Edward Naughton's analysis "seems totally bogus". That kind of statement is a contradiction in itself. Either something IS bogus, then you can say so, or you aren't sure and say "seems", but then it can't be "totally bogus" (otherwise you'd take a clear position). Also, I didn't see a statement from Torvalds that would address certain headers that are not located in the /include section of the Linux source tree. "PJ" has not been right all along. "PJ" said lots of demonstrably false things on various occasions, such as the example I gave here in connection with IBM's patent pledge. "PJ" even said that one isn't allowed to sell GPL'd software. You can read on gnu.org that it is legal. And "PJ" told people all the wrong things about the impact of the Bilski ruling. The fact of the matter is that US courts don't rule any more restrictively after Bilski than they did before. Concerning TurboHercules, "PJ"'s assessment is also different from that of the European Commission, which launched in-depth investigations into IBM's conduct last July.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 10:56 UTC (Mon)
by tuxmania (guest, #70024)
[Link]
When Torvalds also says its ok, my personal picture is pretty much already clear and its you that has to prove your right in detail.
Im sure you can find things where PJ has been wrong considering the scope of the case. What interests us mortals is the impressive percentage of times she has been right, not the few time where she was wrong.
Regarding Billski its no surprise its not enforced considering the amount of lobbying from software companies in the US. Software patents are their last defense against open source and without it they will soon be thrown out on a market where software is priced based on its utility, the money printing press will stop running.
TurboHercules is a sad story where IBM wont support their own stuff if its virtualised ontop of a shoddy product like Windows. From a technical standpoint thats more than reasonable, if not painfully obvious.
Its also very obvious who the driving force is behind TurboHercules. Microsoft is gaming the legal system for all their worth, all over the place.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 7:52 UTC (Sun)
by spaetz (guest, #32870)
[Link] (1 responses)
I'd like to thank groklaw for the service it has provided, in the form of documents, facts, transcripts and analyses sprinkled with you witty humor. I've enjoyed reading groklaw as much as I enjoy reading LWN. Personally, I don't care whether PJ is a woman, men, or a pseudonym for the
whole legal department at IBM (or wherever) :-), but I have deep respect for
what PJ has done and achieved. Judging from some of the attacks she had to endure over the years, I find it understandable that you chose to remain anonymous. With regard to comments in this LWN thread, please follows groklaw's commenting rules, especially one aspect:Groklaw shutting down in May
Really. Early on PJ passed on an offer to work with Dan Ravicher at PUBPAT, who - along with ACLU and others - are plaintiffs in
Myriad Genetics. Will we miss PJ? Yew bet! But there are higher callings for her talent.
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Lots of scare quotes
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Wol
Oh you who write with forked words have your own agenda; that much is clear and it is not for the benefit of FOSS. Your view about Groklaw/PJ missing the boat about business is just another example, else the site would have been named GrokBusiness.
Your apparent disdain for all things PJ is also quite clear because she and all those who contributed to Groklaws success uncovered many things in the dank and dark world of SCO. I imagine you danced a pretty little jig upon hearing of this news. After all it is one less reputable person to cast an eye towards your dank and dark activities.
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
OK, so disclose your past, present employers and those who are currently backing you. Or at least feeding you what to say or presenting issues they want you to blog about. If such a disclosure is so important to you then it should be no problem for you to disclose those who are helping you in a non-financial or financial manner.
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
I don't need to gather up such information about PJ. Your the one making a big deal about it. So be the man you proclaim to be and reveal that which is not public.
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
And there goes your other leg to stand on.
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
All that while meticulously keeping track of how frequently is your name popping up here and there.
Groklaw shutting down in May
I received the Economist Group's EU Campaigner of the Year Award in 2005.
The one you initially declined and returned as it seems to have been sponsored and potentially influenced by Microsoft? :-) Yes, I remember that.
From your mail (
http://blogs.mysql.com/kaj/2005/11/).
All in all, one would be hard-pressed to find a plausible explanation for the outcome of the EV50 vote. There are some theoretical answers, but they arent too likely. The organizers decided that total intransparency is in their best interest, so were left in the dark as to what exactly happened.
Unfortunately, your slashdot journal has been deleted (OMG, slashdot censorship??!?), so I could not link to the original source. Mmh, seems like a great achievement to me.
SCNR, I'll stop now.
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Here's a hint: since you're complaining that the thread is about you, talking about yourself a little less would undoubtedly help. Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/03/googles-android-f...
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
The net effect of that big brainwashing effort is that some of the more credulous and less informed people now distrust a very smart analyst like Rob Enderle, very smart journalists like Maureen O'Gara and Dan Lyons
Groklaw shutting down in May
Florian the FUDmeister: heir to Lyons, O'Gara and Enderle. Makes sense now.
------------------------------------------
You might be tempted to call him FUD spreader.
And also someone who loves to spread innuendo.
'Say, have you stopped beating your wife?'
You know, that kind that straddles the line.
SJVN even mentioned it in his article this week that he knows her.
So Mueller is calling SJVN and others LIARS.
Plain and simple.
When someone tells you they saw something and you still have doubts, you are calling them liars.
Which is great because that's what most people call Mueller but we have to do it sub rosa.
So be like him, dont call him a liar straight out, rather insinuate things about his character and motives the way he does. You can then defend yourself that it wasnt what you said, heck you could even act offended if someone brings it up. This also helps you keep the image of impartiality without stating your motives straight up.
Public speaking 101.
Luckily, in FLOSS we had the chance to witness Lyons, O'Gara and Enderle in action in their hilarious prime.
Mueller is continuing their job. In more or less the same fashion.
I got a fiver that its just old Rob in disguise.
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May - those who know
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Wow so much jealousy :-D
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
I know the "Who is PJ" story. It was interesting, and Maureen O'Gara did the right thing by trying to track down whom she calls "the elusive harridan".
So you weren't being judgemental with this quote?
PJ's real
Groklaw shutting down in May
Its loss of relevance was obvious and its censorship, notorious
Its loss of relevance was obvious and its censorship, notorious
Its loss of relevance was obvious and its censorship, notorious
the battle was won, and you criticize the site for having lost relevance?
As if the site owner is not aware of this?
PJ widely respected
Re: "PJ" widely respected
Re: "PJ" widely respected
Re: "PJ" widely respected
Re: "PJ" widely respected
That much I doubt.
Re: "PJ" widely respected
> I publish my own opinions only and we've had the question before.Re: "PJ" widely respected
But, AFAIK, we still haven't had an answer, only vague hand-waving.
Re: "PJ" widely respected
balanced coverage?
balanced coverage?
Wol
balanced coverage?
> Someone who participates in highly public debates, claims to provide more transparency about suspected connections and comes up with conspiracy theories concerning people like me (although my background is well-documented and verifiable) must also present themself at some point at a public event and explain their professional background.Its loss of relevance was obvious and its censorship, notorious
"Citation needed". Why do you state this as a fact, when it is just your personal opinion about how other people should behave? It seems just fine to me to stay pseudonymous, even as a high-profile public writer. And there are numerous precedents for that, too.
> On the occasion of the announcement of Groklaw's shutdown (which for now is just an announcement), many people appear to think only about the good that Groklaw presumably did and tend to forget its dark side: its devious censorship ("sandboxing") of user comments designed to suppress dissent and fabricate consensus in its community in the eyes of third parties.
Since when is it a bad thing to moderate/filter comments on one's own site? You might have personal ethics according to which this is not acceptable, but other people might disagree and in the end this was her own site.
> On the occasion of the announcement of Groklaw's shutdown (which for now is just an announcement), many people appear to think only about the good that Groklaw presumably did and tend to forget its dark side: its devious censorship ("sandboxing") of user comments designed to suppress dissent and fabricate consensus in its community in the eyes of third parties.Its loss of relevance was obvious and its censorship, notorious
Holy cow! Actually, not only your link is just a vague accusation and not a conviction; but actually the source for this accusation, as quoted in this link, is... yourself!!!
Don't you agree, that quoting oneself as citation is useless? And that it only makes things worse, that you used a third party (who quoted you) as proxy for that?
Its loss of relevance was obvious and its censorship, notorious
Florian Mueller
Let's hope that this thread goes to the top of Google's search results for the name 'Florian Mueller'.
It was fun...
It was fun...
Over time however the hiding of PJ does seriously make me doubt "her" existence.
Yeah, perhaps she was a computer program, or a ghost, or a team of IBM lawyers.
It was fun...
It was fun...
Many factors can impact the interpretation from any single person's writing. The content, knowledge of the material, age of the author, nationality, experience, occupation, and education level can all impact writing styles. For example, a woman who has spent 20 years working in a male-dominated field may write like her co-workers. Similarly, professional female writers (and experienced hobbyists) frequently use male writing styles. Gender Guesser does not take any of these factors into account.
The day we let computers tell us what gender someone is.. is the day skynet wins.
Following the logic.... If Jono Bacon says he's me....and these gender guessers says that I'm female....that means... Jono Bacon is a woman.
I even plugged in Jono's own blog entries into the guesser..the verdict is in...Jono is not a dude. That's probably news to Jono as well.
PJ liked to run hatchet jobs on anyone they saw as an enemy of their cause, digging personal information and trying to smear them charges of guilt by association.
Digging personal information, not.
Digging personal information, not.
I don't recall PJ ever having dug up actual personal information about anyone.
It was fun...
It was fun...
It was fun...
It was fun...
Groklaw was a team, *her* team, and you were on it or you weren't.
It was fun...
It was fun...
It was fun...
It was fun...
Not many dog poisoners have the chutzpah to defend their act by pointing out what good steak they use to deliver the payload, and still fewer offer a blatantly poisoned steak as evidence. I suppose that could be called "courage", the quality of having one's heart in it.
It was fun...
It was fun...
Ad hominem is an attempt to reject or discredit what someone offers using something about the person offering it. An allegation may be accurate or inaccurate, flattering or insulting, relevant or pure idiotic noise. None of that will tell you whether it's ad hominem or not. My metaphor was accurate, insulting and relevant, but what makes an allegation ad hominem is the attempt to taint. If you're going to use strong language, please use it properly.
It was fun...
It was fun...
PJ deletes such attempts on sight as the work of trolls, and all your objections amount to is "sometimes she gets it wrong". Endlessly discussing whether any such decision is wrong would also achieve what the trolls were after.
IBM would have to be stark staring insane to license their OS for production use on an emulator -- particularly for use on an emulator being used as last-resort disaster backup. The sheer stupidity of what they were being asked to do is actually more ludicrous than the allegations made about their refusal to do it.
It was fun...
Did these forums get drained of legal knowledge when AllParadox & Marbux left or went silent so long ago? I'm really curious here. I feel like I'm in a dream where we're taking a test and everyone but me slept through all the classes.
Yeah. That's the closing paragraph of a post anent which Mueller devotes an entire section titled 'Baseless allegations of "personal attacks".' Right. Openly presuming a roomful of people are all ignorant posers is a constructive contribution, and following it immediately with "I'm really curious here" isn't going to set off anyone's "kick me, I'm a troll" alarm.
What Jay Maynard did was not »trolling«
So you say. The content of his reply on "Sunday, April 11 2010 @ 01:07 EDT" does not appear in Florian's link. In fact, I don't think there's anything of his in that document. Care to provide any evidence? No explanations, no characterization, no careful framing attempts. Just facts, thanks.
It was fun...
IBM would have to be stark staring insane to license their OS for production use on an emulator -- particularly for use on an emulator being used as last-resort disaster backup. The sheer stupidity of what they were being asked to do is actually more ludicrous than the allegations made about their refusal to do it.
Mueller's /. post on the subject was my first contact with his work […]
Care to provide any evidence? [for Jay Maynard not »trolling« on Groklaw]
It was fun...
kicking out people she does not agree with
Again with the gratuitous characterization, backed by nothing. Again.
Please leave Florian Mueller out of this.
You're the one cited his work as evidence. You get to live with the association.
comments on the original article
(1) that post is still there. (2) people there were treating him very gently. (3) I see him going on and on about "IBM's patent threats", as if IBM made any. They didn't, but he sure is determined to paint it that way.
It was fun...
You're the one cited his work as evidence. You get to live with the association.
It was fun...
No I didn't.
Who do you think you're fooling?
it was Florian who actually went to the trouble of documenting
That's you, opening this conversation.
It was fun...
That's you, opening this conversation.
It was fun...
Yes, I thought I remembered her describing that -- it's one of the reasons I've been hoping to stumble on that article I mentioned. It was long ago now, but as I recall it was very thorough examination of the situation as she saw it. Hers was the first description I recall of what are now called "concern trolls", for instance. What impressed me most at the time was her discussion of what she did before caging or banning people: in at least some cases, she did background investigation.
It was fun...
It was fun...
she is very much a genuine person.
It was fun...
MOG took orders from Blake Stowell
Its loss of relevance was obvious and its censorship, notorious
Its loss of relevance was obvious and its censorship, notorious
Its loss of relevance was obvious and its censorship, notorious
Groklaw shutting down in May
Posted Apr 10, 2011 7:54 UTC (Sun)
by spaetz (guest, #32870)
[Link]
Posted Apr 10, 2011 10:24 UTC (Sun)
by AndreE (guest, #60148)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 10, 2011 12:31 UTC (Sun)
by philipstorry (subscriber, #45926)
[Link]
It covers copyright mainly, but also privacy and patent issues.
It has a HUGE bias, but wears it proudly, so it's easy to filter out.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 12:39 UTC (Sun)
by endecotp (guest, #36428)
[Link] (21 responses)
- We know who writes LWN because they use their real names, and many of us will have met them in person or in other contexts;
- We can see where the money comes from.
In contrast, Groklaw appeared to have significant resources behind it (i.e. it didn't seem to be a spare-time operation) yet we had no idea who was paying for those resources.
Hopefully, whatever comes along to fill the gap left by Groklaw's departure will be set up rather differently. Maybe LWN should find a friendly paralegal and start a "legal" page?
Posted Apr 10, 2011 13:33 UTC (Sun)
by spaetz (guest, #32870)
[Link] (14 responses)
Why do you need to meet someone in order to make use of the information and analyses they provide?
> - We can see where the money comes from.
(Looking at you guest status, not from you :-P)
While I don't suspect LWN of anything like that, do you really know that? Do you know that RedHat is not giving John 10k$ per year? As I said, it's unlikely, but "can you see" that?
I tend to rate trustworthyness on whether someone backs up claims with checkable facts. And groklaw provided me with transcripts from court hearings that I would otherwise find summarized by some reporter with a hidden agenda in some news outlet.
> In contrast, Groklaw appeared to have significant resources behind it (i.e. it didn't seem to be a spare-time operation) yet we had no idea who was paying for those resources.
Right could be. But why do you care, even if the whole of IBM's legal department is behind groklaw? We take all online articles that we read with a grain of salt and healthy scepticism anyway, don't we?
>Hopefully, whatever comes along to fill the gap left by Groklaw's departure will be set up rather differently. Maybe LWN should find a friendly paralegal and start a "legal" page?
Hehe, that would be nice indeed.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 16:01 UTC (Sun)
by pboddie (guest, #50784)
[Link] (4 responses)
The Economist is a pretty interesting example in that few names are given and many of those are pseudonyms. I would imagine that the authors of some articles, and almost certainly the sources in such articles, would be in personal danger if their names were made public. All anyone needs to consider when reading an opinion is whether that opinion is convincing such that they might agree with it, and whether the person writing that opinion has any agenda that would benefit them but not the reader upon getting the reader's agreement or support. It's all too easy to say - hence it is written frequently in arguments on the Internet - that an anonymous opinion counts for nothing, but a convincing argument doesn't need a name to be convincing, and a signature doesn't necessarily show the skeletons in someone's closet.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 21:24 UTC (Sun)
by Blaisorblade (guest, #25465)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 11, 2011 8:52 UTC (Mon)
by pboddie (guest, #50784)
[Link]
Sure, a reputation can be a useful thing, but it's not the only thing. Moreover, someone who has a reputation in one area might try and leverage that reputation in another area - you see this quite a bit with journalists - but that doesn't mean that they're qualified or that the reputation is applicable in that other area. I agree that putting a name against an opinion makes it easier to filter out erroneous opinions, but that doesn't mean that an anonymous opinion should have no weight. Indeed, in some areas (whistle-blowing, for example) it should perhaps carry more weight. And you have reached that conclusion by assessing the quality of the information and by sampling different sources, which is something a reputation might reduce the need for, but it shouldn't eliminate such a need or desire. Again, there are some interesting observations to be made. Although The Economist can be quite predictable (it is The Economist, after all), there are times when it has published a position and then had to admit that it was (as far as its contributors are concerned) wrong, most notably around the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Now I accept that with an anonymous person, the "track record" of the commentator would not be known - they might claim to have been against the Iraq invasion all along, for example - but I think it is possible to treat all such commentators as individuals and ignore notions of hypocrisy (which only applies to concurrently contradicting positions, of course) while still digesting what people have to say.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 18:25 UTC (Mon)
by quintesse (guest, #14569)
[Link]
Maybe you should have take a look before saying:
"When I read media coverage, I want to be able to rely on it and the facts it gives, and to leave verification to others, for practical reasons, unless I'm deeply interested on the subject.!"
because if Groklaw gives you one thing it's LOTS of facts! All of them referenced, linked etc etc
With so much easily verifiable information somebody would have noticed if she'd "doctored the records" so to speak.
The rest of it was her personal opinion, and clearly stated as such, with which you might agree or not. For that I don't need to know their real name, heck most of the time we don't know who's behind a story, it doesn't matter, I can make up my own mind if I agree or not, if I should be investigating more or am just happy to read the summary.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 21:41 UTC (Mon)
by dannyobrien (subscriber, #25583)
[Link]
The principle reason is that they are written collectively by the Economist's editorial staff, not because the authors would be in danger (and sources can remain anonymous without authors being anonymous).
Posted Apr 10, 2011 22:06 UTC (Sun)
by endecotp (guest, #36428)
[Link] (8 responses)
There is a bit of a difference between large entities like broadcasters and newspapers, where the reputation of the entity as a whole lends some value (or not) to the individual articles, and a website that appears from nowhere and seems to deliberately make it difficult to establish who is behind it and what their prior reputation might have been.
> This is an argument that I find a bit hard to believe. If an article
"Well written" can mean spelled correctly, factually correct, etc; for those attributes it's not necessary to know who wrote it. But the important issues with stories like SCO is "am I being told everything?", "do others have another interpretation of that?", etc. To be able to judge that sort of thing, we can look at the author's background and try to get a first-hand impression of what sort of person they are.
Just look at all the posts on LWN where people ask, "Dear Florian, please tell us who pays you so that I can decide whether to believe what you have written on your blog." I think that's a legitimate question to ask, and I also ask it of Groklaw.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 0:59 UTC (Mon)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (7 responses)
Said "large entities" started out small and unknown until they got known and trusted. Just like, say, LWN or Groklaw. Your whole argument might have had some traction way back before it was groklaw.net, by now it has none whatsoever. Get over it, PJ is much more credible (and important) than you will ever be.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 11:54 UTC (Mon)
by endecotp (guest, #36428)
[Link] (6 responses)
True. The issue is that, for me, an anonymous site like Groklaw fails to make that transition from "small and unknown" to "trusted" because of its anonymity.
> Get over it, PJ is much more credible (and important) than you will
My unimportance, present or future, is not the issue.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 12:24 UTC (Mon)
by Trelane (subscriber, #56877)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Apr 11, 2011 12:40 UTC (Mon)
by Trelane (subscriber, #56877)
[Link]
Whose importance is being compared to PJ's aside from FM's? I guess that's the kernel of what I'm trying to grok.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 18:53 UTC (Mon)
by endecotp (guest, #36428)
[Link] (1 responses)
Don't be ridiculous. (My name is Phil Endecott. Have you googled me yet?)
All I did was note that Groklaw's anonymity had made me uncomfortable; look at the reaction! It's like a sort of "reds under the beds" paranoia - if someone doesn't agree 100% with the group-think, they must be secretly working for the other side. Come on people, get a grip!
Posted Apr 11, 2011 19:06 UTC (Mon)
by Trelane (subscriber, #56877)
[Link]
Nope; I looked for endecotp on lwn after the initial post, hence the second. Like I noted, the trigger was "my unimportance"; as far as I could tell, it was FM vs PJ, thus it looked like you were replying as FM, which seemed quite odd.
> It's like a sort of "reds under the beds" paranoia - if someone doesn't agree 100% with the group-think, they must be secretly working for the other side. Come on people, get a grip!
I agree.
I rather find the whole thing interesting as both sides go back and forth on the importance of person (who someone is and the people and organizations funding them) versus taking the argument itself without the person. :)
Posted Apr 13, 2011 11:09 UTC (Wed)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link]
Right. As $BIG_NEWSPAPER isn't anonymous in practice (or do you claim to know each and every reporter who writes for yours by name and reputation?)...
Posted Apr 14, 2011 14:57 UTC (Thu)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link]
I apologize, I misread your name as FlorianMueller somehow.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 12:17 UTC (Mon)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link]
First, PJ has worked for several organizations so there are people who know her.
Second, she does use here real name; Pamala Jones.
Third, the site is hosted on ibilio last I knew and uses OSS software; zero cost there.
Fourth, it wasn't just one person (her) but a whole lot of volunteers helping with maintaining the site, transcribing documents, etc etc.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 12:50 UTC (Mon)
by danielpf (guest, #4723)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Apr 11, 2011 19:09 UTC (Mon)
by endecotp (guest, #36428)
[Link] (2 responses)
OK, that's enough. No more LWN comment reading for me. This place has gone crazy.
(Just for the record, my name is Phil Endecott, and I've been a Linux user and developer for 15 years or so - as even a tiny bit of Googling will reveal.)
Posted Apr 11, 2011 19:14 UTC (Mon)
by Trelane (subscriber, #56877)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 19:44 UTC (Mon)
by danielpf (guest, #4723)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 19:12 UTC (Mon)
by Trelane (subscriber, #56877)
[Link]
I hope you're not referring to my question to endecotp. I am convinced at this stage that my reading of the situation was very wrong.
Posted Apr 10, 2011 23:16 UTC (Sun)
by danielpf (guest, #4723)
[Link] (2 responses)
"There isn't enough money in the world to get me to play the role Florian is playing.
By the way, he's not mad or anything like that. It's an act, I believe. Here's why I think so. He sent me an email not that long ago offering that we declare a truce, but that we could pretend to still oppose each other in public if I wanted."
This is just confirming the impression of shill that F. Mueller was giving to most of us. PJ is known to be able to back what she writes.
(*)
Posted Apr 11, 2011 0:31 UTC (Mon)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 15:33 UTC (Mon)
by salvarsan (guest, #18257)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 1:39 UTC (Mon)
by ccchips (subscriber, #3222)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 2:52 UTC (Mon)
by chuckles (guest, #41964)
[Link]
Why am I posting this here? Because this article is about her and groklaw, not about Mr. Mueller. Let's not get sidetracked. Mr. Mueller, I hope that someday you will make the kind of contribution that PJ has made. The community would be a better place if we had more groklaws.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 7:11 UTC (Mon)
by fyodor (guest, #3481)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 9:41 UTC (Mon)
by linuxrocks123 (subscriber, #34648)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 13:22 UTC (Mon)
by mckay (subscriber, #2782)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted Apr 11, 2011 13:38 UTC (Mon)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Apr 11, 2011 15:32 UTC (Mon)
by yoshi314 (guest, #36190)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 17, 2011 17:13 UTC (Sun)
by jzbiciak (guest, #5246)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 15:59 UTC (Mon)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (2 responses)
Unfortunately, it's useless for my needs; the resulting filtering only applies to my view of the page, not the view of other people who I might send a link to. While this article happens to be one where I'm not likely to link people to it, I still can't justify paying for LWN when I can't send a safe link to an article to a colleague, without risking one of these useless flamewars breaking out in the comments and reflecting badly on me.
Perhaps you might like to consider providing a way for subscribers (maybe even just the top tier) to send a link to any LWN article complete with their filtering pre-applied? If you did so, I would be in a position to reconsider my decision to cancel my LWN subscription.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 17:49 UTC (Mon)
by foom (subscriber, #14868)
[Link]
I still don't really understand the big deal though; I don't know anyone sensitive enough that they'd care (or consider it reflecting badly upon me) that the informative and interesting article I sent them had some random comments attached to it. Unless I was a participant in a flamewar in the attached comments, perhaps. :)
I mean, even mainstream news sites have comment threads inline these days, and those...wow...those can get nasty. But I simply don't read them unless I'm in the mood for abuse.
Posted Apr 17, 2011 17:17 UTC (Sun)
by jzbiciak (guest, #5246)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 16:05 UTC (Mon)
by mckay (subscriber, #2782)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 21:42 UTC (Mon)
by gus3 (guest, #61103)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 16:06 UTC (Mon)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 11, 2011 16:18 UTC (Mon)
by nowster (subscriber, #67)
[Link]
Posted Apr 12, 2011 12:30 UTC (Tue)
by clump (subscriber, #27801)
[Link]
Failure to *unequivocally* disclose conflicts of interest shows lack of ethical integrity for anyone willing to engage in such behaviour, and anyone low enough to pay for it.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 16:49 UTC (Mon)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (26 responses)
"Eulogy for Groklaw" is the best article so far on Groklaw's end. I obviously disagree with the positive parts about Groklaw, but here are some fantastic quotes from it: "in the last couple of years [i]t seemed to have passed its most effective years, and its weak points were becoming more prominent as it floundered for copy outside coverage of the SCO case." "Among its readers, this tendency to naive paranoia became exaggerated, so that the comments became less and less worth reading." "Still, I do think that now is the time for Groklaw to quit. It is not ending at the height of its influence, but it is ending before it slides into complete irrelevance." -> I can't agree more.
Posted Apr 11, 2011 17:51 UTC (Mon)
by aardvark (guest, #74267)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 18:24 UTC (Mon)
by pyellman (guest, #4997)
[Link]
Posted Apr 12, 2011 1:37 UTC (Tue)
by SilverWave (guest, #55000)
[Link] (23 responses)
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Groklaw-to-cease-p...
Posted Apr 12, 2011 5:28 UTC (Tue)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (22 responses)
Posted Apr 13, 2011 3:17 UTC (Wed)
by SilverWave (guest, #55000)
[Link] (21 responses)
You do that all by yourself.
Here is another nice review:
http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?s...
Posted Apr 13, 2011 4:02 UTC (Wed)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (20 responses)
That doesn't only defy logic. It raises even more serious questions about the author.
Posted Apr 13, 2011 20:41 UTC (Wed)
by SilverWave (guest, #55000)
[Link] (6 responses)
"Along the way, I gained ample evidence (as if any were necessary, Florian Muellers churlish comments aside) that PJ is a living, breathing, committed and passionate advocate for the causes that she and Groklaw stand for. I wont share any personal details of our (always electronic) conversations, but suffice it to say that she has ample reasons to defend her privacy, and also that she deserves a well-earned rest."
Hmm... you are not being "churlish" again now are you?
Posted Apr 14, 2011 4:41 UTC (Thu)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Apr 14, 2011 19:09 UTC (Thu)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Apr 14, 2011 19:12 UTC (Thu)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Apr 14, 2011 19:34 UTC (Thu)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 14, 2011 19:38 UTC (Thu)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (1 responses)
We're talking about an avatar who never published a photo, never appeared at an industry conference or awards ceremony, never disclosed a past or current employer or client. Those are the facts. You can't change those facts -- which you obviously don't like -- by making claims like the one about a driver's license.
We're far from requesting a driver's license in this case. We're talking about an avatar that hasn't disclosed any of what I listed above; as Sam Varghese explained on iTWire, Groklaw was quite obviously a full-time effort but never disclosed its funding source; articles published under the "PJ" pseudonym were, according to text analysis tools like Gender Guesser, written by at least two different persons; differences in punctuation previously suggested more than one person behind the avatar.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 23:49 UTC (Thu)
by DOT (subscriber, #58786)
[Link]
Disclosures aside, what's really important here is actual contributions. One of them publishes truths and half-truths that help the open source community a great deal. The other publishes truths and half-truths to hinder the open source community. One wonders why this piece of work won't make any friends here.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 1:18 UTC (Thu)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link] (11 responses)
Of course, it's possible you are also simply a set of electronic circuits, as I have never met you.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 4:53 UTC (Thu)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (10 responses)
No one claimed that those "PJ" posts, comments and mails were written by a computer like Watson. Obviously, Artificial Intelligence can't handle that (at least not at this stage).
The problem is, however, that if you only have "always electronic" correspondence with an online account, you can't know who's behind it, and you can't know how many people.
Updegrove made reference to my comments on ZDNet. I didn't claim that "PJ" wasn't an account used by one or more human beings. So you just attacked a total strawman.
My points on ZDNet (to which Updegrove referred) and other sites were about a reasonable balance between privacy and public activism. A balance that the person or team behind the "PJ" account never struck. People with sound judgment were able to see all the time that there was something very wrong with that. It's just that a number of people who wanted to believe in "PJ" as their savior were willing, and some of them still are willing, to ignore or to try to rationalize in often very pathetic ways what was going on.
"Is a dream a lie if it [wasn't] true, or is it something worse?" (modified quote from a famous song)
Posted Apr 14, 2011 10:24 UTC (Thu)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link] (6 responses)
1. PJ is a person. Not a he or she, not old or young, but a person. As apposed to an AI or a collective. Most likely through consistency of voice, quick turnaround, etc (I don't know specifics, ask Andy).
2. PJ is passionate about what he/she is interested in. Again, tone, consistancy, etc.
Neither of these require face to face meetings or phone calls.
Regarding balance. Gee, I have no clue of most of the reporters in the NY Times, either. In the case of Groklaw, since PJ back everything up with documentation, I can judge for myself whether she is right or not (or for that matter where on the white-black scale things are, since some of the stuff is ambiguous). I don't need to "know" PJ, or find out about her private life to judge that. No one does. I need to know her arguments and the facts behind them, which she provides in more detail than any other news source. That's the transparency that's needed, and that she provides.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 11:57 UTC (Thu)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (5 responses)
You just keep reiterating things that don't address the concerns I raised about "PJ" being mystery-shrouded and not verifiable. Your point (1) is very unconvincing. You just say you believe everything's fine though you don't know specifics. What Updegrove said is by far not enough for him to make the claim he made. And (2) is a strawman because an avatar shared by a team or by different people over the years can also be "passionate" etc. Even if one believed your points (1) and (2) combined, that still would not address the issues I raised on ZDNet and which Updegrove referred to. If he makes reference to my concerns and then says everything's fine, while meaning something different, then he's misleading to say the least. Concerning the backing-up of facts, didn't you click on the links in Groklaw's "sue the pants off TurboHercules" article and find out that "PJ" told the oppposite of the truth about a claimed limitation of IBM's patent pledge (the very first and central statement of that Groklaw article), especially since it was pointed out in the discussion there but not even corrected then, which means that if "PJ" saw the correction, she decided to lie anyway? Assuming the answer is No, does this concern you now? Assuming the answer is Yes, didn't that give you pause and why do you then make the claims you make here?
Posted Apr 14, 2011 13:00 UTC (Thu)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (4 responses)
Re the Turbo Hercules stuff: Here I do side with IBM. The system is licensed to use on real, IBM machines (yes, IBM did get burned way back with the clones by Amdahl and others of their big iron running IBM software); if they opt to look the other way if somebody installs a self-compiled copy of an emulator for fooling around as an alternative to doing it on the big iron in the neighboring datacenter, that certainly is their prerogative. But they certainly will not look the other way if somebody,as part of their business operations, asks for copies of the software for running on emulated machines and leaving IBM completely out of the deal. I just don't understand how somebody even imagined that such would fly (maybe being inmersed into technical stuff can make you blind to the wider implications of what you are doing); and even less that some (clearly otherwise intelligent) people who aren't directly involved bought into this ridiculous theory. Plus I am fogetting my guideline of not feeding trolls...
Posted Apr 14, 2011 16:30 UTC (Thu)
by nye (subscriber, #51576)
[Link] (3 responses)
Would you still say that if it were anyone but Florian defending them?
When Apple did more-or-less the same thing they were being Bad; when Microsoft sold copies of Windows with a EULA saying you couldn't run it virtualised they were being Evil; when IBM sell copies of their OS with a EULA saying you can't run it on anything but their own expensive hardware, suddenly that's cool?
It's a blatant abuse of a monopoly position - far worse than bundling IE or WMP with Windows or rubbish like that, but for Groklaw IBM can do no wrong, and herds of people just copy and paste their opinions from there.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 18:50 UTC (Thu)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (1 responses)
I came to that conclusion after looking at the evidence shown in (suprise!) Groklaw's article which so inflamed Florian Mueller. At first reading, I thought IBM was being overly heavy-handed (which wouldn't have been surpsising to me, given part history); on further analysis I came to the conclusion that they were right. And then Mr. Mueller showed up and the whole discussion went down the drain (just like here).
Posted Apr 14, 2011 18:55 UTC (Thu)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link]
Posted Apr 15, 2011 6:29 UTC (Fri)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
Posted Apr 14, 2011 12:27 UTC (Thu)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link] (2 responses)
Just like you refusing to disclose all those who are behind/supporting you. You certainly cannot be regurgitating the voluminous of words you do without help.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 12:30 UTC (Thu)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (1 responses)
Look at the wealth of information out there about me from the last 25 years and compare this to an avatar who never published a photo of "herself", never showed up at a conference or awards ceremony, never disclosed a past or current employer or client.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 12:51 UTC (Thu)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link]
You write a lot and I can only surmise that you are being fed by unknowns in the shadows. You cannot possibly be writing that much without the help of others while maintaining the consistent bends of truth.
Right now after reading much of your bilge I am reminded of a scene in the movie Sharktail where Sykes shows Oscar just where he fits in the grand scheme of things. You are below whale poo. Unlike the movie, you will never come clean.
Posted Apr 16, 2011 23:59 UTC (Sat)
by JanC_ (guest, #34940)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 17:14 UTC (Mon)
by rkhalloran (guest, #74263)
[Link]
I tried the Caldera distro back in the day when My Employer of the time provided a free copy to us: not bad, but not worth their fees. After a dozen years at The Deathstar, seeing the SysV codebase used as a legal blackjack by these fools was offensive, and having seen the various UNIX-like x86 OS' of the 80s (who remembers Coherent? Idris? etc etc), SCOX' claim that Linux could only have grown by plagiarism was a joke from the start. My contention from the outset has been that they filed their case vs. IBM as a last-ditch effort to stay afloat, expecting to get paid off to go away quietly. After actually being called to prove their point, it's been a game of dodging the bullet ever since. Now it looks like it's finally ending.
PJ is doing a Cincinattus on us, putting down her pen and going back to RL; good luck to her in whatever she does, and my thanks for her efforts.
SCOX(Q) DELENDA EST!!
Posted Apr 11, 2011 17:45 UTC (Mon)
by whitemice (guest, #3748)
[Link]
Posted Apr 11, 2011 18:06 UTC (Mon)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link]
Posted Apr 12, 2011 5:41 UTC (Tue)
by FlorianMueller (guest, #32048)
[Link] (6 responses)
I recommended Bruce Byfield's "eulogy" and there's now another link worth sharing: Sam Varghese of iTWire in Australia wrote this two-page article on GroklawGroklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
> - We know who writes LWN because they use their real names, and many of us will have met them in person or in other contexts;
You don't listen to the CNN or BBC because you don't know the real name of the news editor? Really? Do you read "The Economist"? They don't even print the author's names for an article.
This is an argument that I find a bit hard to believe. If an article is well written or not is not something that depends on if someone has actually met that person in real life.
Groklaw shutting down in May
Why do you need to meet someone in order to make use of the information and analyses they provide? You don't listen to the CNN or BBC because you don't know the real name of the news editor? Really? Do you read "The Economist"? They don't even print the author's names for an article.
I first think that past attacks on "Pamela Jones" justify why she wanted to stay anonymous:Groklaw shutting down in May
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groklaw#Media_controversy
All anyone needs to consider when reading an opinion is whether that opinion is convincing such that they might agree with it, and whether the person writing that opinion has any agenda that would benefit them but not the reader upon getting the reader's agreement or support.
I don't agree with your reasoning, even if I guess I would tentatively agree about Groklaw (I read just mentions of it through LWN, and now on Wikipedia).
When I read media coverage, I want to be able to rely on it and the facts it gives, and to leave verification to others, for practical reasons, unless I'm deeply interested on the subject. A convincing argument might be flawed in unobvious ways, or in ways only apparent to other experts. A reputable source might still be mistaken, but it's less likely (if reputation was earnestly gained). Her opinion might still be partial, but I believe a reputable source should declare her partiality, allowing the reader to compare sources having opposite points of view.
For law-related issues, this is maybe a bigger concern, since common sense and laws, and their application, appear to be often at variance.
Moreover, reading and judging takes time. In this era of information overflow, you need heuristics to filter, like the source, or the language. U wudnt read me if I rot like this, would you*? Not (only) because it's harder to understand, but because misspelled English has _some correlation_ with poor thinking. Yet, this might lead to missing an informative opinion.
So, what opinion I have of Groklaw? I can judge myself that LWN is an accurate and reputable source, and they often refer to Groklaw as another such source; similar opinions appear on Wikipedia, thus I would consider Groklaw worth reading. Finally, I never considered SCO to have any real point.
* I'm emulating misspelled English: I'm not a native speaker, therefore it's harder for me.
It's all too easy to say - hence it is written frequently in arguments on the Internet - that an anonymous opinion counts for nothing, but a convincing argument doesn't need a name to be convincing, and a signature doesn't necessarily show the skeletons in someone's closet.
Given a traceable identity, it is at least possible (in principle, and often in practice) to discover any such skeletons.
However, I care for a reputable source, that doesn't need to be a person's name.
I would guess The Economist to be a reputable source, though I never investigated the issue. For journals, it's often easier to investigate the editors and its interest. For instance, if I were a U.S. Democrat I would probably not rely on Fox News as my primary information source.
Reputation and anonymity
When I read media coverage, I want to be able to rely on it and the facts it gives, and to leave verification to others, for practical reasons, unless I'm deeply interested on the subject. A convincing argument might be flawed in unobvious ways, or in ways only apparent to other experts. A reputable source might still be mistaken, but it's less likely (if reputation was earnestly gained). Her opinion might still be partial, but I believe a reputable source should declare her partiality, allowing the reader to compare sources having opposite points of view.
So, what opinion I have of Groklaw? I can judge myself that LWN is an accurate and reputable source, and they often refer to Groklaw as another such source; similar opinions appear on Wikipedia, thus I would consider Groklaw worth reading.
I would guess The Economist to be a reputable source, though I never investigated the issue.
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
The Economist is a pretty interesting example in that few names are given and many of those are pseudonyms. I would imagine that the authors of some articles, and almost certainly the sources in such articles, would be in personal danger if their names were made public.
For the record, the Economist rarely runs a by-lined piece. Almost all of its articles are written anonymously.Groklaw shutting down in May
> information and analyses they provide?
> You don't listen to the CNN or BBC because you don't know the
> real name of the news editor?
> is well written or not is not something that depends on if someone
> has actually met that person in real life.
Groklaw shutting down in May
There is a bit of a difference between large entities like broadcasters and newspapers, where the reputation of the entity as a whole lends some value (or not) to the individual articles, and a website that appears from nowhere and seems to deliberately make it difficult to establish who is behind it and what their prior reputation might have been.
Groklaw shutting down in May
> they got known and trusted.
> ever be.
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
You are conveniently overlooking several things.
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
Interesting quote of PJ re F. Mueller
http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=2...
And why Mr. Mueller in my view belongs in the same group as the MOGs and Enderle's.
Interesting quote of PJ re F. Mueller
Ascribed to PJ/Groklaw:Interesting quote of PJ re F. Mueller
"There isn't enough money in the world to get me to play the role Florian is playing."
Understanding, at last.
Florian Mueller is to FOSS discourse as
Ann Coulter is to political discourse.
Quothe Linux Torvalds:
"If it's some desperate cry for attention by somebody, I just wish those people would release their own sex tapes..."
Groklaw shutting down in May
PJ, you will be missed
Groklaw shutting down in May
Groklaw shutting down in May
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
LWN has exactly such a feature; you'll find it in the My Account area. Suffice to say that this conversation has increased the use of it.
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
You could always print to PDF and send them that instead. Send them the link too with a proviso that it hasn't been pre-filtered, and trust them to be competent enough to sort wheat from chaff.
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
You make "reasonable points"? Like the following?
LWN feature request:: FlorianFilter
In other words, we talk about a person who apparently would have liked to become a lawyers but failed to get there, and who missed some other important perspectives that "she" would have needed to provide holistic analysis of the issues "she" covered.
So what does "PJ" bring to the table? A blog full of rants that never had any actual effect on a decision -- it was just a propaganda device all the time.
It's beyond me why anyone would wish to engage in such character assassination. The only explanation I can present is that you're hiding a conflict of interest, and therefore your "reasonable points" and "blogs" are paid for.Bruce Byfield's Groklaw eulogy (LinuxProMagazine) makes very good points
Bruce Byfield's Groklaw eulogy (LinuxProMagazine) makes very good points
Bruce Byfield's Groklaw eulogy (LinuxProMagazine) makes very good points
A better review (From the H).
A better review (From the H).
A better review (From the H).
Updegrove's Groklaw article
"Muellers churlish comments" Ouch :-)
Updegrove vouches for "PJ" being a real person based ONLY on electronic correspondence
Updegrove vouches for "PJ" being a real person based ONLY on electronic correspondence
Updegrove vouches for "PJ" being a real person based ONLY on electronic correspondence
Updegrove vouches for "PJ" being a real person based ONLY on electronic correspondence
Updegrove vouches for "PJ" being a real person based ONLY on electronic correspondence
Updegrove vouches for "PJ" being a real person based ONLY on electronic correspondence
Updegrove's Groklaw article
Updegrove's Groklaw article
Updegrove's Groklaw article
Updegrove's Groklaw article
Updegrove's Groklaw article
Updegrove's Groklaw article
I'm confused as to how so many OSS people seem to think IBM are in the right and I can only assume it's because they hate the messenger.
Updegrove's Groklaw article
Updegrove's Groklaw article
Updegrove's Groklaw article
"The problem is, however, that if you only have "always electronic" correspondence with an online account, you can't know who's behind it, and you can't know how many people."Updegrove's Groklaw article
Updegrove's Groklaw article
Like I have asked you before since you are the one making a big deal about it; belly up and disclose ALL your sources. Come on, be the man you say you are.Updegrove's Groklaw article
Updegrove's Groklaw article
Groklaw shutting down in May
Overdue
Groklaw shutting down in May
Recommended reading -- itWire -- Groklaw: the good, the bad, the ugly
Sam recently did email interviews with Free Software luminaries, and his email address has the "gnubies.org" domain. He's a GNU activist, but as a journalist he tries to do a good job. Here are some of the best quotes from "Groklaw: the good, the bad, the ugly":
"a wildly partisan mob that cheered as each disclosure that made SCO seem unlikely to prevail was published." <- description of what Groklaw's audience was like in the early years
"There are legions who praise it as an outstanding work of journalism which it very definitely is not." <- absolutely correct, and Sam explains why
"But then Groklaw, which was often suspected of being funded by IBM, never divulged its source of funding either [...] if Jones had divulged the source of her funding - there had to be someone paying the bills as it was a full-time occupation maintaining and writing for Groklaw - then it is highly unlikely that the website would have had anything like the status it enjoyed during its tenure."
"a great deal of the coverage of matters FOSS comes from groupies - people who exhibit uncritical acceptance of the genre and all that it involves"
"One other negative aspect of Groklaw was the shrill, self-righteous tone adopted by Jones - the I-am-right-and-the-rest-of-the-world-is-wrong attitude [...]"
" Her approach often smacked of childishness."
"[...] has outlived its usefulness; calling time is an acknowledgement of this"
Posted Apr 12, 2011 13:30 UTC (Tue)
by Los__D (guest, #15263)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Apr 12, 2011 13:34 UTC (Tue)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 12, 2011 13:47 UTC (Tue)
by Los__D (guest, #15263)
[Link]
Posted Apr 14, 2011 12:18 UTC (Thu)
by stumbles (guest, #8796)
[Link]
Groklaw is hosted on Ibilio, the site software is FOSS (free of cost) and there were a slew of people willing to donate their own time and money. He is now starting to sound like SCO/McBride and I paraphrase; "It's not possible a group of non-paid individuals could have possibly, conceivably created such as site; only paid for mouthpieces could have done such a thing".
I think he has blog envy. He simply does not have the intellectual transparency.
Posted Apr 12, 2011 21:55 UTC (Tue)
by kena (subscriber, #2735)
[Link] (1 responses)
Why? Because his juvenile, mean-spirited, and intentionally misleading attacks serve no purpose other than to boost his ego.
So, come on, folks: whether he says good, or bad, no replies. What say you?
Posted Apr 14, 2011 13:53 UTC (Thu)
by michel (subscriber, #10186)
[Link]
Posted Apr 12, 2011 19:00 UTC (Tue)
by boog (subscriber, #30882)
[Link] (1 responses)
The rate and quality of PJ's work has been astonishing. I can easily understand how SCO believed she must be an army of IBM lawyers. One may or may not be put off by her (very) slight idiosyncrasy, but the results are there for all to see. Absolutely incisive. Cometh the hour, cometh the woman!
As mentioned by Phipps (I think), I agree that groklaw serves a crucial role as a focal point for analysis of legal attacks and FUD (the garbage that FM pushes being a low-grade example). Maybe LWN will consider commissioning some articles from her to fill the void.
Thank you PJ.
Posted Apr 12, 2011 21:36 UTC (Tue)
by jetm (subscriber, #61129)
[Link]
http://web.archive.org/web/20210126145338/http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110411195227234
Posted Apr 12, 2011 23:53 UTC (Tue)
by kmself (guest, #11565)
[Link] (2 responses)
As the guy who semi-organized one of the early sites devoted to the Caldera-IBM lawsuit (TWikiWeThey's SCO wiki, since lost to server/disk and organizational scramblings), PJ did an amazing job of rallying and focusing attention on the SCO case, abstracting out legal information, crowdsourcing plain-text transcripts of recordings and image-based PDFs of legal documents, etc. I discovered how much time and effort were required just to assemble some phone transcripts, arguments, timelines, and a song.
As memory serves, Groklaw was mentioned by IBM and other anti-SCO parties as a resource for finding legal documents and arguments regarding the case. For those of us in the community, as well as the press, it was the first stop for more information.
On a tech/community note, I find it interesting that the blog approach worked somewhat better than the wiki method, at least in the early 2000s. Groklaw quickly gained more traction than we did.
My feeling is that Groklaw's bigger mission, serving as a clearinghouse for legal and business issues based around Free Software and the threats to it is valid, and it would be a Good Thing for it to continue, with or without PJ. If not, it's not the first time a mantel has been passed from one set of shoulders to another. Some of the criticisms of Groklaw (especially of Bruce Byfield's Eulogy) are accurate, and, well, blogs do have a tendency to become echo chambers. But on balance Groklaw was and is an excellent resource.
As I've noted above, I had the opportunity to correspond with whomever answers email and phone calls as Pam Jones, and I can state that she's female, personable, charming, caring, and very intelligent.
I wish her success and fulfillment in what she does from here.
Thanks tons, PJ.
- Karsten M. Self
Posted Apr 13, 2011 22:53 UTC (Wed)
by vblum (guest, #1151)
[Link] (1 responses)
"On a tech/community note, I find it interesting that the blog approach worked somewhat better than the wiki method, at least in the early 2000s."
I am not sure how much grueling detailed work was done on the Wiki (perhaps a lot), ... but what GL really proved, if nothing else, is that hard work matters. GL succeeded because PJ was willing - and able - to put an amazing amount of work into tracking down the details.
She also has an interesting habit of judging uncomfortable issues largely correctly, if harshly - at least those issues that could later be verified, well beyond SCO. One more thing that matters, and perhaps much more easily done on a blog than a wiki.
Posted Apr 15, 2011 6:10 UTC (Fri)
by kmself (guest, #11565)
[Link]
For the Wiki, my own goals were more to create a record of the issue (one of the better pages was a timeline of events). Wikipedia does this well today, particularly with large, long news events (look to the Boxing day and recent earthquake/tsunami): stories with many facets, in which facts emerge over time, etc. I find the Wiki treatment far superior to mainstream news outlets.
Blogs are more transactional, and I suspect more immediately rewarding of participation. Wikipedia itself took a number of years to really gather mass, but once it did it was unstoppable.
My sense was that there were far more people contributing to Groklaw. I believe we had a few score users, of whom a dozen or so were highly active. Among the amusing developments was when an account appeared under the name of Rob Enderle. I followed up on that as I was concerned someone might be spoofing him, but from all appearances it was legit.
No sour grapes either way, just one of my own observations. I'm interested in what tech works and what doesn't, as well as under what circumstances.
Recommended reading -- itWire -- Groklaw: the good, the bad, the ugly
Without expressing an opinion on any other comments posted in this thread, might I please suggest that comments like this do not help and are only likely to exacerbate the problem? Please remember that LWN has a comment filtering mechanism (it's under My Account) which can make specific people go away for you.
Recommended reading -- itWire -- Groklaw: the good, the bad, the ugly
Recommended reading -- itWire -- Groklaw: the good, the bad, the ugly
I agree, his dribble is sounding like someone else we have heard "offering" their opinion. While he is welcome to it, if he'd just get shit right once in a while it wouldn't be so bad.Recommended reading -- itWire -- Groklaw: the good, the bad, the ugly
The words I want to use for you...
I fully agree. But for some reason any time I see a post now by Mr. Mueller, the Westboro Baptist Church comes to my mind. No idea why, but they are also hard to ignore. Maybe just make fun of him and continue to ask for his remunerations.
The words I want to use for you...
Groklaw shutting down in May
UnXis Claims It Got the UNIX and UnixWare Trademarks in Sale of SCO Assets
A big thanks to PJ
A big thanks to PJ
A big thanks to PJ