Debian proposes dropping most architectures
From: | Steve Langasek <vorlon-AT-debian.org> | |
To: | debian-devel-announce-AT-lists.debian.org | |
Subject: | Bits (Nybbles?) from the Vancouver release team meeting | |
Date: | Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:45:09 -0800 |
Hello all, As promised earlier on -project[0], after the release team/ftpmaster team meeting-of-minds last weekend, we have some news to share with the rest of the project. First, the news for sarge. As mentioned in the last release team update[1], deploying the testing-security queues has been held up pending some infrastructure enhancements, without which ftp-master.debian.org cannot handle the load of the added wanna-build queues for testing-security. This week, Andreas Barth and Ryan Murray have been applying the finishing touches to allow the needed upgrade of ftp-master.debian.org's openssh to a version that supports connection caching, which is needed before the current ftp-master host will scale to handle the addition of testing-security queues. Once this happens, the testing-security configuration should itself be completed for all architectures in quick succession, with the result that testing-security and testing-proposed-updates will be fully operational in the space of two weeks. This means that we are now (at long last) in the final stretch for sarge's release, and we will be freezing soon once we know that d-i RC3 is golden. While this does not yet give us a timeline with fixed dates for the freeze and the release, this is noteworthy enough in itself that we wanted to share the news immediately. This also means that it's time again to ask maintainers to cut back on uploads of new upstream versions of software, *particularly* of libraries. This hasn't been mentioned in recent release team updates, since it's not very realistic to insist on no new upstream versions for six months without a complete freeze; but as we get close to the freeze it's particularly important to limit churn of library packages, since they tend to delay packages that depend on them -- as has bitten us several times recently. If you believe a library needs updating for sarge, please talk to the release team (debian-release@lists.debian.org) before uploading. The much larger consequence of this meeting, however, has been the crafting of a prospective release plan for etch. The release team and the ftpmasters are mutually agreed that it is not sustainable to continue making coordinated releases for as many architectures as sarge currently contains, let alone for as many new proposed architectures as are waiting in the wings. The reality is that keeping eleven architectures in a releasable state has been a major source of work for the release team, the d-i team, and the kernel team over the past year; not to mention the time spent by the DSA/buildd admins and the security team. It's also not clear how much benefit there is from doing stable releases for all of these architectures, because they aren't necessarily useful to the communities surrounding those ports. Therefore, we're planning on not releasing most of the minor architectures starting with etch. They will be released with sarge, with all that implies (including security support until sarge is archived), but they would no longer be included in testing. This is a very large step, and while we've discussed it fairly thoroughly and think we've got most of the bugs worked out, we'd appreciate hearing any comments you might have. This change has superseded the previous SCC (second-class citizen architecture) plan that had already been proposed to reduce the amount of data Debian mirrors are required to carry; prior to the release of sarge, the ftpmasters plan to bring scc.debian.org on-line and begin making non-release-candidate architectures available from scc.debian.org for unstable. Note that this plan makes no changes to the set of supported release architectures for sarge, but will take effect for testing and unstable immediately after sarge's release with the result that testing will contain a greatly reduced set of architectures, according to the following objective criteria: - it must first be part of (or at the very least, meet the criteria for) scc.debian.org (see below) - the release architecture must be publicly available to buy new - the release architecture must have N+1 buildds where N is the number required to keep up with the volume of uploaded packages - the value of N above must not be > 2 - the release architecture must have successfully compiled 98% of the archive's source (excluding architecture-specific packages) - the release architecture must have a working, tested installer - the Security Team must be willing to provide long-term support for the architecture - the Debian System Administrators (DSA) must be willing to support debian.org machine(s) of that architecture - the Release Team can veto the architecture's inclusion if they have overwhelming concerns regarding the architecture's impact on the release quality or the release cycle length - there must be a developer-accessible debian.org machine for the architecture. We project that applying these rules for etch will reduce the set of candidate architectures from 11 to approximately 4 (i386, powerpc, ia64 and amd64 -- which will be added after sarge's release when mirror space is freed up by moving the other architectures to scc.debian.org). This will drastically reduce the architecture coordination required in testing, giving us a more limber release process and (it is hoped) a much shorter release cycle on the order of 12-18 months. Architectures that are no longer being considered for stable releases are not going to be left out in the cold. The SCC infrastructure is intended as a long-term option for these other architectures, and the ftpmasters also intend to provide porter teams with the option of releasing periodic (or not-so-periodic) per-architecture snapshots of unstable. Also, since the original purpose of the SCC proposal was to reduce the size of the archive that mirrors had to carry, the list of release candidate architectures will be further split, with only the most popular ones distributed via ftp.debian.org itself. The criterion for being distributed from ftp.debian.org (and its mirrors) is roughly: - there must be a sufficient user base to justify inclusion on all mirrors, defined as 10% of downloads over a sampled set of mirrors To be eligible for inclusion in the archive at all, even in the (unstable-only) SCC archive, ftpmasters have specified the following architecture requirements: - the architecture must be freely usable (i.e., without NDAs) - the architecture must be able to run a buildd 24/7 sustained (without crashing) - the architecture must have an actual, running, working buildd - the port must include basic unix functionality, e.g resolving DNS names and firewalling - binary packages must be built from the unmodified Debian source (required, among other reasons, for license compliance) - binaries for the proposed architecture must have been built and signed by official Debian developers - the architecture must have successfully compiled 50% of the archive's source (excluding architecture-specific packages) - 5 developers who will use or work on the port must send in signed requests for its addition - the port must demonstrate that they have at least 50 users These objective requirements would be applied both to the other eight architectures being released with sarge that are not currently regarded as candidates for release with etch, and also to any porter requests asking for new architectures to be added to the archive. This plan has been signed off on by: Steve Langasek (Release Manager) Colin Watson (Release Manager) Andreas Barth (Release Assistant) Joey Hess (Release Assistant) Frank Lichtenheld (Release Assistant) James Troup (ftpmaster) Ryan Murray (ftpmaster) Anthony Towns (ftpmaster) The following people in Debian leadership roles have also expressed their support: Andreas Schuldei (DPL candidate) Angus Lees (DPL candidate) Branden Robinson (DPL candidate) Jonathan Walther (DPL candidate) Again, if you've got any questions, comments or concerns, please raise them on -devel so we can take them into account before putting this plan into effect. Further plans for etch ---------------------- After the release of sarge, the release team will stop tracking the day-to-day status of RC bugs in testing for a while. NMUs for broken packages will be minimal; instead, our RC bug handling will mostly be limited to the usual aggressive removal of broken packages from testing. This will also be a key time for the QA team to focus on deeper quality issues and methods for a change, instead of on individual release-critical bugs. Meanwhile, much of the release team's energy will be focused on coordinating the many major changes that are sure to hit the archive shortly after sarge's release. We already know of a number of major package changes coming up: gcc 4.0, python 2.4, xorg-x11 6.8.2, apt 0.6. If you are planning any other transitions that will affect a lot of packages, please let us know in advance. We will need to complete the larger transitions as fast as possible, to get testing back into a nearly releasable state quickly again after the release. It's also not too early to begin staging complex transitions for etch in experimental, particularly those transitions that will take a while to debug. Post-sarge, we also know that with the new social contract, all documentation needs to adhere to the DFSG. The biggest impact of this change is that documentation that is licensed only under the current version of the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) needs to be made available under a license that meets the requirements of the DFSG, or else be moved to non-free. Some maintainers have already opted to move their GFDL documentation to non-free for sarge, but the vast remainder will need to be dealt with soon after sarge's release to keep us on track for etch. Otherwise, it's business as usual for the sarge release. Please bear in mind previous release team updates [1][2] when preparing package uploads to unstable; and if you have any questions, please ask the release team before uploading. Cheers, -- Steve Langasek [vorlon@debian.org] Debian Release Team [0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2005/03/msg00015.html [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/02/msg... [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2004/11/msg...
Posted Mar 14, 2005 20:09 UTC (Mon)
by ballombe (subscriber, #9523)
[Link]
This is a prospective release plan for etch by the release team and the ftpmasters team.
To be an official statement, it would need to be endorsed by the DPL or voted by the Debian developers. None of that has happened.
It is far too soon to see whether this plan will be carried out, and until sarge is released the point is moot, imho.
Posted Mar 14, 2005 20:42 UTC (Mon)
by topher (guest, #2223)
[Link] (2 responses)
Debian is not planning to, or even considering to, "drop" most architectures. What they're likely going to do is stop trying to produce a synchronized stable release for all architectures. Debian currently supports 11 architectures (for Sarge), and the fact is, it's too much. The time and effort required to get all of the architectures into a releasable state at the same time is one of the primary factors that keeps Debian releases as spread out as they are.
By selecting a handful of primary architectures (x86, PowerPC, IA64, and AMD64 (personally I think they should add Arm to it, also, and if needed (I don't know how many primaries they want at a maximum) move IA64 to secondary)), they greatly reduce this burden. Post-Sarge, they will do official stable releases for those architectures, in much the same way they do now. The secondary architectures will be allowed their own release schedule as determined by their port maintainers. No more holding up the entire stable release because (for example) the m68k architecture is having an issue.
Personally, as a Debian user, I think this is a good thing. I also think it will help move Debian towards a more regular (and attainable) release schedule.
Posted Mar 15, 2005 0:25 UTC (Tue)
by phython (subscriber, #3278)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 17, 2005 13:52 UTC (Thu)
by wookey (guest, #5501)
[Link]
Also although ARM is very widely used and lot of people base their work on debian's stuff or otherwise find it a useful resource (it's a big part of our business for example), the fraction of direct downloads from debian ftp mirrors is tiny: much less than 1%. So putting it on scc.debian.org makes sense to me. If embedded Debian ever reaches critical mass and millions of people start downloading debian-arm for their routers, then things might change and we could get bumped back up to mainline port status.
Posted Mar 14, 2005 20:52 UTC (Mon)
by alspnost (guest, #2763)
[Link] (6 responses)
I wonder whether Gentoo should do the same as well. I mean, Gentoo is a great, increasingly popular, but small Linux flavour, and you have to wonder how many people out there actually use it on MIPS, HPPA etc. If focusing on the "big 3" or "big 4" actually helped to use the resources better, and to make releases easier and quicker to achieve, then I'm all for it.
We've reached a situation where supporting the niches brings too much of a cost to the masses. Doubtless some people will see this as a great shame, but in the end, practicality is going to have to win out.
Posted Mar 14, 2005 21:12 UTC (Mon)
by ballombe (subscriber, #9523)
[Link]
Posted Mar 15, 2005 4:17 UTC (Tue)
by yodermk (subscriber, #3803)
[Link] (4 responses)
When a package is deemed "ready" for any given arch, it is moved to stable for that arch. As long as Gentoo has maintainers for any given architecture, especially if they're not likely to want to maintain more popular archs, it should be retained.
Posted Mar 15, 2005 10:10 UTC (Tue)
by Duncan (guest, #6647)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 15, 2005 15:53 UTC (Tue)
by jdv (guest, #712)
[Link] (2 responses)
Imho, that is more or less what is now being proposed for debian. Well, except for the four or so most important archs, which remain locked.
Posted Mar 15, 2005 18:14 UTC (Tue)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (1 responses)
there's a huge difference between the two.
Posted Mar 15, 2005 21:25 UTC (Tue)
by jdv (guest, #712)
[Link]
Posted Mar 14, 2005 21:16 UTC (Mon)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link]
Posted Mar 14, 2005 22:43 UTC (Mon)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (2 responses)
however the criteria for becoming a 'top-tier' arch is unreasonably narrow (10% of downloads will be hard for anything to hit, given how much of the downloads x86 is going to be for example)
also this seems to say that second class citizens will never have an official release, only a snapshot (and that on some undefined schedule). this is about as bad as never having a release at all.
it would be far better to have the SCC's not be release showstoppers for the primary arch's. but have the goal that within X months of a stable release on the primary arch's the SCC's will be released (hopefully with the same set of packages, just including fixes that are needed to make them work on that arch, with those fixes propogating to the main tree so that the primaries will get package updates as needed)
Posted Mar 14, 2005 23:40 UTC (Mon)
by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330)
[Link]
Posted Mar 15, 2005 14:51 UTC (Tue)
by djpig (guest, #18768)
[Link]
Note that this criteria is only about mirroring location not about releases.
The plan was to release about four arches but only distribute the most needed ones over ftp.debian.org so that mirrors can easier decide to only distribute them. Other release architectures (like PPC) should then be distributed over scc.debian.org (or whatever name would be choosen) which most of the big mirrors will distribute anyway. This should make the live easier for mirrors that don't have the discspace and bandwith for the current archive (>100 GB discspace and 1-2.5 GB daily pulse)
Posted Mar 15, 2005 0:50 UTC (Tue)
by jae (guest, #2369)
[Link] (1 responses)
Too long.
Anyway, I *hope* that if this does go through (and I'm afraid it just might), then there will be a GR against it. Which might just fail.
If this stands, it will really be a bad day for Debian. Debian will not die... it will be dead. At least the Debian I fell in love with in '96.
Posted Mar 15, 2005 18:08 UTC (Tue)
by dan_b (guest, #22105)
[Link]
Posted Mar 15, 2005 12:50 UTC (Tue)
by amacater (subscriber, #790)
[Link]
Andy
Posted Mar 15, 2005 19:55 UTC (Tue)
by oak (guest, #2786)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 15, 2005 22:37 UTC (Tue)
by jondkent (guest, #19595)
[Link]
Debian needs to address the way it approaches architectures and I think this, if it ever gets accepted, is the way forward to ensure Debian doesn't get it the mess its current release cycle is in.
But I fear this will not happen. Debian seems to have become a political distribution with absolutely rabid approach to licensing. Some like this, I can see the point, but there comes a time when you are just harming yourself. I fear that the Ech release (i.e. the one after Sarge) will still take years to arrive, but by that time I think alot of current Debian users will have had enough.
I was hoping that maybe I would looked at Sarge when it was released, but I can't see that happening now.
Posted Mar 17, 2005 14:04 UTC (Thu)
by bgilbert (subscriber, #4738)
[Link]
Funny how we start with "we will never drop architectures from Debian because it won't help us release faster" and end up with "...but we're happy to stop producing stable releases or security updates for them".
This is not an official statement by the Debian project.Debian to drop most architectures ?
This has a very misleading title.Misleading title. . .
Actually ARM is one of the architectures causing some build problems. So moving ARM down from a top tier arch is probably a good thing. Also, ARM needs a full binary break after sarge is released to get TLS and new toolsMisleading title. . .
It's true that there will be massive ABI breakage for etch to default to soft floating point (as there are only about two ARM CPUs with hardware floating point ever made so having this as the inefficient default for everything is pretty dumb). And whilst we are breaking everything there are a few other changes that are deemed to be a good idea.Misleading title. . .
Well, tentative or not, if this goes ahead, it's a good thing. Let's leave the "support every architecture" thing to NetBSD, and stick to targeting the architectures that represent the overwhelming majority of the userbase.Debian to drop most architectures
There is so many distribution for the 'masses', what benefit is there to have one more ? One the other hand, distributions for the less used architectures are scarse and Debian is a great resource here.Debian to drop most architectures
I guess the difference between Gentoo and Debian is that Gentoo is not "held up" for years while waiting for something to get fixed on an obscure architecture. The "stability flag" of each package (stable, testing, unstable) is separate for each architecture supported by Gentoo. So a package can be stable on x86 and testing on AMD64, or testing on x86 and unstable on IA64.Debian to drop most architectures
Very good points about the Gentoo archs. There's another to be made in Gentoo's archs
this context, however, that being that even the various main Gentoo archs
aren't "release locked" to each other. That is, each arch can release on
its own schedule. In practice, Gentoo x86 sets the main release schedule
and the other archs normally target the same schedule, but there's nothing
saying it /has/ to be that way. The individual archs can release as they
see fit -- it's only the benefit of the larger PR draw of the coordinated
releases that keeps most of the others (by choice) to the same schedule.
An example is my own arch, amd64. Where Gentoo main, that is x86, went
from four quarterly releases in 2004, 2004.0-2004.3, to a semi-annual
release cycle for 2005, 2005.0 and 2005.1, amd64 had originally planned to
stay with the four release schedule. As it so happens, a release-stopping
hiccup with 2005.0 (on amd64) has it delayed to only now getting close to
formal release (I believe there was a similar one for x86, but haven't
tracked it as closely so don't know its current status, and with a 6-month
window, it's still safely within window and will be for some time yet),
now, in mid-March, which means they'll likely only get three release
snapshots out this year, but anyway...
Of course, the other even BIGGER difference is the emphasis placed on
releases. With Gentoo, "releases" are fairly stable and well tested
snapshots of the living release tree taken at a specific time, with any
changes necessary as discovered during testing, with binary packages
available and designed to be convenient starting points for a new install.
Once a Gentoo installation is accomplished, the system is designed for
more or less constant updating as the packages become available and marked
either stable (arch) or unstable (~arch), as chosen by the local
installation admin. Other than occasional profile updates where somewhat
larger changes may be instituted (a switch from gcc-3.3 to 3.4, as the
default, or from a default 2.4 to 2.6 kernel and headers), if said changes
are considered disruptive on a normal install and therefore likely profile
masked, the system is designed to be kept up to date on a more or less
weekly basis, daily being possible for those that want it. Even profile
changes are generally less hectic than release upgrades on most binary
targeted distributions, where almost the entire system changes at once.
With Gentoo, once installed, there's really little reason to worry about
releases at all, because the updates are done on a routine basis, not as
part of a massive release update.
That is of course one of the reasons I like the Gentoo system.
Duncan
There's another to be made in
this context, however, that being that even the various main Gentoo archs
aren't "release locked" to each other. That is, each arch can release on
its own schedule.
Gentoo's archs
check again, the secondary archs will get 'snapshot' releases, not full releases with security support.Gentoo's archs
Right, I misread -- I assumed that those snapshot releases would be more like real releases, but it would seem that is not true. Hopefully, a seperate community effort could pick up the pieces, though, and make a real stable distribution out of it, security support and all.Gentoo's archs
Just for the record: I've changed the title of the article and (slightly) the text to better reflect the fact that it refers to a proposal, not an adopted policy. My apologies for the first version, which wasn't so clear on that.
Article tweaked
avoiding the coordinated release problem is a good idea if it helps get things out on a reasonable schedule.Debian proposes dropping most architectures
No non-x86 system meets the 10% threshold. Even PowerPC is less than 3%.
See Dirk Eddelbuettel's blog for some detailed stats.
Debian proposes dropping most architectures
Debian proposes dropping most architectures
however the criteria for becoming a 'top-tier' arch is unreasonably narrow (10% of downloads will be hard for anything to hit, given how much of the downloads x86 is going to be for example)
Still wrong on the title... but the real title would be "Some Debian developers in positions of power [oopsie, TINC goes out the window] propose dropping [yes, dropping, essentially] most architectures"Debian proposes dropping most architectures
How many architectures were supported by the Debian you fell in love with in '96?Debian proposes dropping most architectures
There is a flamefest/heated discussion going on on debian-devel even as weDebian proposes dropping most architectures
speak. A couple of points: Sarge _will_ release with 11 fully supported architectures - and may release soon. There are differences of opinion about the cut-off points for the architectures that will be supported - expect some more considered/agreed guidelines to float up out of the -devel arguments currently going on. Debian is not going away any time soon, as far as I can see - it remains to be seen how it can continue to scale appropriately. Give the developers time to absorb this, work towards a reasoned solution and come out with the best Debian they can. [Note: full disclosure: I am a Debian developer, no, I haven't contributed to the -devel discussion yet :) ]
Why not to restrict the set of packages instead of architectures? Debian proposes dropping most architectures
"Stable" could be something that a server system needs and desktop systems
would be always on the bleeding "testing"-edge. At the moment Linux
desktop is anyway moving forward so fast that I'm not sure how anybody can
call it stable. :-)
I remember suggesting something similiar to this proposal a few years back and got toasted, so I dumped Debian (after many years of use that was a hard one to do) and move to Gentoo (on workstations) and Slack (on servers).Debian proposes dropping most architectures
So basically a group of people who share responsibility for many of the delays with sarge (by sitting on testing-security, etc.) get together and decide to blame external factors for the release schedule. How surprising.This sounds familiar.