|
|
Subscribe / Log in / New account

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

February 9, 2022

This article was contributed by Sam Sloniker

The PinePhone is a Linux-based smartphone made by PINE64 that runs free and open-source software (FOSS); it is designed to use a close-to-mainline Linux kernel. While many smartphones already use the Linux kernel as part of Android, few run distributions that are actually similar to those used on desktops and laptops. The PinePhone is different, however; it provides an experience that is much closer to normal desktop Linux, though it probably cannot completely replace a full-featured smartphone—at least yet.

Goals

[PinePhone apps]

For several years, the only major options in the smartphone market have been Android and iOS. Android is an open-source operating system, but virtually all Android devices come with significant amounts of proprietary code; iOS is almost completely proprietary. Many Android phones and all iPhones have locked bootloaders, preventing the user from replacing the operating system.

Many phones are also carrier-locked, preventing the user from switching cell carriers without the approval of the one through which they purchased the phone. Few devices give the user root access without making modifications to the software and possibly voiding the warranty in the process. Overall, while the purchaser may legally own the device, in many ways it remains in the control of the manufacturer and often the carrier. Previous attempts at developing open-source smartphones have either failed or produced expensive devices.

PINE64 has been making various FOSS-friendly electronic devices for several years. The company originally made single-board computers (SBCs), and later developed devices such as laptops and tablets. One of its most popular devices, however, is the PinePhone, which is designed to promote mobile Linux distributions as an alternative to Android and iOS. The phone allows the user to install any compatible operating system, and it is not locked to a particular carrier. Instead, it is designed to give the user as much control as possible.

Distributions

Many distributions are available for the PinePhone, including DanctNIX (an unofficial spin of Arch Linux Arm for PINE64 phones and tablets), Manjaro Arm Mobile, Mobian (Debian for phones), postmarketOS (based on Alpine Linux), and Ubuntu Touch. Some of these, such as postmarketOS and Ubuntu Touch, were originally designed to be installed as custom ROMs on Android smartphones; others were developed specifically for the PinePhone and other Linux phones. All of these distributions, with the exception of Ubuntu Touch, are basically desktop Linux distributions with custom "desktop" environments designed for phones. (Ubuntu Touch is different in several ways, including a read-only root filesystem.)

There are also several mobile-friendly desktop environments available. The most popular are Phosh (similar to and partially based on GNOME, note that the Wikipedia article has more information than the project's sparse home page), KDE Plasma Mobile, and Sxmo (a minimalist environment based on a tiling window manager). Phosh and Plasma Mobile use Wayland, while Sxmo uses either X11 or Wayland. It is also possible to use regular desktop environments such as GNOME and Xfce, although they may not be usable with the phone's touchscreen.

So far, I have tested DanctNIX with Phosh. I still use my Android phone because of the PinePhone's limited app support and slow processor, but the user interface is usable and most of the basic phone features are present. Functions such as calling and texting work fine. MMS is supported, but most if not all distributions require the installation of extra FOSS components to use it. Once I installed the extra software and made some carrier-specific settings, MMS worked well, so group chats and sending pictures from the default Chatty app are possible.

[PinePhone chat]

Basic apps such as weather, calendar, and clock are also available, though alarms do not work if the phone is sleeping. I have not found an email client that works well, but webmail interfaces typically work fine in Firefox on the phone. YouTube worked well at 360p with occasional pauses on both WiFi and LTE in Firefox.

Pure Maps is an OpenStreetMap-based map app for Linux. I tried it briefly, and did not try to navigate with it, but the GPS worked. The interface seemed user-friendly, although it is written using Qt, so its interface did not match Phosh's GTK-based interface. Pure Maps is not available in the Arch Linux Arm repositories, so I had to use a Flatpak to install it.

Because Linux smartphones have a smaller ecosystem, there are far fewer apps available for Linux phones than for Android and iOS. Since iOS is a closed platform, it is not possible to run iOS apps on the PinePhone; however, Android's core is open source, making it feasible to run many Android apps on the PinePhone.

So far, three projects support this: GloDroid, Anbox, and Waydroid. GloDroid is an Android distribution that supports the PinePhone. Development seems to have stalled, however, and I did not test it. Anbox and Waydroid are compatibility layers for running Android apps on normal Linux distributions. They both work by running the Android user space in a container. Waydroid is the more popular choice, mainly because it has better performance than Anbox. Many apps, including some lightweight games, work well in Waydroid.

The only major issue I have noticed is that Waydroid does not support changing the screen size. If the phone is rotated, only part of the Android UI is visible until the phone is rotated back to the previous position. It is also important to make sure the on-screen keyboard is not visible when launching Waydroid; if it is, Waydroid will leave the space occupied by the keyboard empty.

Specifications and performance

[PinePhone back open]

The PinePhone has a 151mm (5.95in.) diagonal, 1440x720 capacitive touchscreen. The Allwinner A64 system-on-chip running the phone contains a quad-core, 64-bit Arm CPU. The phone comes in two models; the one I purchased has 3GB RAM and 64GB eMMC; the other model has 2GB RAM and 32GB eMMC. The 3GB model costs $200, while the 2GB one costs $150. Both models can use (and boot from) a microSD card of up to 2TB in size.

The phone boots from the microSD card if a bootable card is found. This is helpful when making changes to important parts of the operating system, because it makes the phone almost unbrickable. It is possible to brick the cell modem, but accidentally doing so is highly unlikely unless you try to reflash the proprietary modem firmware.

The PinePhone, like most smartphones until fairly recently, has two cameras: one front "selfie" camera and one rear camera. The front camera has a 2 megapixel (MP) sensor, while the rear camera has a 5MP sensor. Currently, the front camera takes poor-quality pictures that usually have a green tint and are often severely out of focus, while the rear camera seems comparable to that of an inexpensive Android smartphone. However, improvements to the postprocessing software are likely to significantly improve image quality in the future. Both cameras on my PinePhone have several dead pixels, but they are not noticeable in most pictures. The rear camera has an LED flash which also functions as a flashlight.

For me, using DanctNIX with Phosh with intermittent light use, the PinePhone's battery lasts for almost a whole day. Of course, this will vary with different distributions and workloads. I usually charge it occasionally throughout the day, but I could probably use it for a full day without charging if I reduced the screen brightness and/or used the phone less often.

The hardware supports WiFi, Bluetooth, and cellular (2G GSM, 3G UMTS, and 4G LTE). WiFi works as expected; it can connect to networks just like any other phone or computer, though only 2.4 GHz is supported. For me, 4G LTE voice, SMS, MMS, and data work fine. I use it with a T-Mobile-compatible Tracfone SIM card. Unfortunately, some carriers are not compatible with the PinePhone. It is best to check the carrier support page on the PINE64 wiki. Bluetooth audio output works well for playing music (both from MP3s stored on the phone and streaming over the Internet). I have not tested it for calls, nor have I tested audio input.

Security and privacy

The PinePhone's security is comparable to that of a Linux laptop with Secure Boot disabled. Apps are not containerized or isolated by default, but normal Linux security mechanisms apply. There have been some reports of PinePhone-specific malware, but avoiding software from unknown sources is a good way to protect against that kind of problem, as with desktop Linux. Most distributions optionally support full-disk encryption, as well, to protect phone data when the phone is turned off.

Privacy with a PinePhone is also basically the same as with a Linux desktop or laptop. Carriers can obtain approximate location information from cell tower triangulation, but this is inherent in the design of cellular networks and cannot be prevented by the phone other than by disconnecting from the cell network.

The phone does have several hardware privacy switches, found behind the battery cover. They can be used to disable the cellular modem and GPS receiver, WiFi/Bluetooth chip, microphone, and cameras. With the cellular/GPS and WiFi/Bluetooth switches turned off, it should be nearly impossible for the phone to be tracked by normal means. But, of course, virtually all electronic devices, even those with no communication hardware, produce radio-frequency emissions that could conceivably be tracked; other methods of tracking may also be possible.

Regular desktop web browsers are used, so any web trackers would work on a PinePhone just like they would on a desktop or laptop. However, because desktop browsers are used, extensions such as uBlock Origin and Privacy Badger work well.

Convergence

One of the features that I found most useful is convergence: the ability to use the phone as a desktop computer. The 3GB edition comes with a USB-C docking bar, which provides two USB-A ports, one HDMI output port, and one Ethernet port. It also includes a USB-C port for charging the phone. The dock can be purchased separately, presumably for use with the 2GB model. Alternatively, any USB-C hub that supports USB-C DisplayPort alt mode and has HDMI output should be compatible, although one without the ability to charge the phone from the hub would not be recommended due to the increased power usage while docked.

Any programs that are open on the phone screen can be easily moved to the monitor and vice versa. The video occasionally briefly disconnects and then comes back, but overall it works reasonably well; that problem may be due to the inexpensive TV I used as a monitor. Because all features of the phone still work, it is possible to send and receive text messages. Calling should also work, but because several cables are connected to the phone, using speakerphone or an external headset is probably necessary.

Development

Developing for the PinePhone is not much different from developing for any other 64-bit Arm device running Linux, such as a Raspberry Pi. Of course, applications must be designed to support small screens and touch input. Many desktop programs work fine with only scaling adjustments; others need more substantial changes.

GTK applications can use libhandy (for GTK 3) of libadwaita (for GTK 4) for improved mobile device compatibility. Qt apps can use Kirigami. A list of mobile Linux applications, LINMOBapps, is useful for both users and developers; for users, it is a way to find applications that run on the PinePhone; for developers, it is a way to find mobile Linux projects to contribute to.

Accessories and other devices

PINE64 has also created a new phone, the PinePhone Pro, which features a faster processor and increased RAM and eMMC compared to the original PinePhone. The PinePhone Pro costs $399; it is currently even more experimental than the PinePhone, so it is still mostly a developer device.

Several add-on devices for the PinePhone are available. These replace the phone's back cover, adding features such as wireless charging, fingerprint sensing, or an external hardware keyboard. The keyboard basically converts the phone into a small laptop and adds battery capacity to the device. It is important to note that the keyboard interferes with using the phone as a handset and with the convergence feature, so users who need those may be better off without it. More common accessories, such as cases and a screen protector, are also available, as well as development-focused devices such as a serial console adapter.

The PINE64 smartphones are not the only Linux phones available. Some models of Android phones can run regular Linux distributions in the form of custom ROMs, as mentioned earlier. There have also been previous attempts at creating FOSS-oriented smartphones, such as Openmoko. Purism has developed the Librem 5 Linux-based smartphone, but there have been long shipping delays with it. Also, the price tag ($1,199 for the base model, or $1,999 for the made-in-USA model) may discourage many potential customers from ordering the Librem 5.

Pine Store Ltd., which is the company that makes and sells PINE64 products, only makes hardware; the software is developed by the PINE64 community. The community is also involved in the design of the hardware, however. The PINE64 Philosophy page describes it this way:

A simplistic point of view, often offered up and referenced online, is that 'PINE64 does hardware while the community does the software'. While this depiction is not inaccurate, it is also a gross oversimplification. The fact that PINE64 is community driven doesn't simply entail a one-way reliance on the community or partner projects for software support; it means that the community gets to actively shape the devices, as well as the social platform, of PINE64 from the ground up.

Beyond just SBCs, phones, tablets, and laptops, Pine Store also makes devices such as an IP camera (PineCube) and a smartwatch (PineTime). All of these devices run almost exclusively FOSS by default as well.

In conclusion

The PinePhone is definitely different from most smartphones. It is closer in many ways to a regular Linux computer than to an Android smartphone or an iPhone. Having experience with Linux and a willingness to ignore some rough edges will both help in getting the most out of it, but it may be a good idea to keep another phone around for times when the PinePhone does not live up to the full smartphone experience that people have come to expect. For Linux users willing to ignore or work around these problems, the PinePhone is a device with a lot of potential.


Index entries for this article
GuestArticlesSloniker, Sam


to post comments

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 9, 2022 16:51 UTC (Wed) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link] (102 responses)

I had a librem5 because I supported their original fund-raiser. It was heavy, tore through its battery in an hour or two, the software was extremely buggy (some dialogs had their buttons duplicated, though only one set worked, for instance) and soooooooooooo slow. Within a month of receiving it, I gave it away to a postmarketos developer who wanted it as a test device, and my desk's drawer now looks much tidier.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 9, 2022 17:14 UTC (Wed) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link] (6 responses)

I've heard of problems with the Librem 5. There are still some bugs in the PinePhone distros, but most of them have been fixed. It is slower than a normal phone, but it's not too bad. The PinePhone isn't any heavier than a normal phone; it's actually eight grams lighter than my Android phone (Moto G Power 2020).

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 5:51 UTC (Thu) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link] (5 responses)

If I were still interested in mobile linux, I'd get a pinephone for sure. But between subscribing to the librem fundraiser and 2022, I kinda lost interest.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 6:41 UTC (Thu) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (3 responses)

@halla
> I kinda lost interest.

You lost so much interest you're posting three times in a thread about it, dumping on the two leading free software / open source mobile solutions?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 8:14 UTC (Thu) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link] (2 responses)

Yeah, I'm just sharing my experience. Note that I did *not* dump on the pinephone: I'm just saying that the librem isn't worth what's being asked for.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 13:35 UTC (Thu) by MatejLach (guest, #84942) [Link] (1 responses)

As a counterpoint from someone who's also a backer of the Librem, but also has a PinePhone; worth nothing that much of the software ecosystem that exists on the PP is thanks to Purism developing its software stack originally meant for the Librem5. So the way I see it, backing the Librem5 was worth it for the software ecosystem it sprang, be it the PP is in a better shape as far as hardware goes atm.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 20:41 UTC (Fri) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link]

Yes, much of the software for the PinePhone, including Phosh, was originally written for the Librem 5. I haven't used a Librem 5; I've seen mixed reviews about the hardware.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 16, 2022 9:52 UTC (Wed) by WolfWings (subscriber, #56790) [Link]

TBH neither of the "mainstream" Linux smartphone vendors seemed like good ideas to me, both are... shockingly underpowered for their CPU? Especially at their price points?

Like I get it, they were highly limited trying to get the RYF mark and Pine was chasing price, but that ends up crippling them in various ways from the lower powered CPU to the song-and-dance with having to shove binary blobs to the super-low-power CPU core and disabling that CPU core from the rest of the system as a result: https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-solving-the-first-fsf-ryf-h...

But for an actual usable phone that can make and take phone calls and handle text messages but is otherwise Just A Linux Computer with a CPU on par or beating mid-range Snapdragons? And can dual-boot between true Android (rooted OR not) and a Linux distro?

I ended up with a Cosmo Communicator, and while a lot say it's "clunky" or "huge" it's about the same size as any other smartphone I've had once you slap a case on it. It's a computer first, phone second, I get that since it's a PDA form factor, but boy howdy it makes a good Linux netbook when ya' drop it on a desk somewhere. The P70 chipset is no slouch.

We're still a few years away from a truly usable Linux smartphone that isn't either crippled with closed-source components or performance issues unfortunately. It's improving, but there's a VERY long way to go yet when something as required as the memory initialization firmware ends up having to sacrifice an entire CPU core due to terminology mumbo-jumbo since it's still a closed-source blob.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 9, 2022 22:43 UTC (Wed) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (88 responses)

> their original fund-raiser

Purism has come a long ways since 2017. It's also notable that the most popular desktop for the PinePhone was developed by Purism for the Librem5. The projects/companies involved are going about production very differently. Both make great products--all the little Pine devices are fun for sure. :)

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 5:49 UTC (Thu) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link] (87 responses)

I got my librem late last year. It's not good hardware and the software is not good. The librem5 is not a great product. It's in every respect a regression compared to the N950 from way back.

(And, yes, my company back then did develop software for the N950 and N9, so, yes, probably I am biased, but then again, I also know what I'm talking about.)

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 6:16 UTC (Thu) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (86 responses)

Librem5 is pretty much the best phone hardware ever, perhaps along with the PinePhone (maybe OpenMoko too from ancient days?). I have many N900s, and am well versed in the collapse of Nokia. I'm the one that figured out why so many N900s were bricking when they launched the product, if you want to dig thru bugzilla archives. The Librem device has a removeable PCB for the modem. Hardware kill switches. Many features that Purism pioneered. More importantly, it appears that Purism is really dedicated to pursuing free software to the best of their abilities, completely unlike Nokia. Plus Purism knows how to run Internet servers, which Nokia couldn't even handle.

https://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 8:13 UTC (Thu) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link] (85 responses)

No, it's crap hardware. The battery lasts only a couple of hours. Charging the thing makes it almost too hot to touch. It's heavy, clunky and awkward to hold -- not to mention really ugly. Those hardware switches? They make me go "meh". I don't give a damn, because, you know? To make the phone useful, they all need to be on. The screen is very much meh, too. And the software is too ghastly for words.

There is nothing in the librem5 that is an improvement on the N950. But yes, I guess it's comparable to the N900. And that in itself is proof of what I'm saying: no progress at all.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 8:35 UTC (Thu) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (69 responses)

You just sound bitter. Of course hardware kill switches are important, at least to many people. They certainly don't always need to be on.

The Librem5 is definitely better than the N900. I don't know about the N950. According to wikipedia "Nokia exclusively distributed the device to developers as it was not offered for sale to the public." Lets compare specs of Librem5 to N950, since you keep saying it is worse hardware.

CPU: Librem5 has Quad Arm Cortex-A53 64bit ARM 1.5GHz, the N950 Cortex-A8 @ 1GHz. Librem5 wins, no?

RAM: 1gig for N950, 3 gigs from Librem5. Librem5 wins again, right?

Storage: 16 GB eMMC on the N950, 32 GB on the Librem5. Plus you can do a whopping 2 tb of SD storage on the Librem5 apparently too (!). Librem5 wins.

Positioning: N950 has GPS and A-GPS. The Librem5: multiconstellation GNSS (e.g. not just USA system). Librem5 wins again over N950.

Wifi: Both have 802.11 a/b/g/n. With Librem5 it is removable and has a kill switch. Perhaps Librem5 win, but we'll call it a draw since this is a trouncing already.

Display: 720×1440 on Librem5, 854×480 on N950. Librem5 wins again.

Camera: Both front and rear cameras have more megapixels on Librem5. Librem5 wins again.

I'm getting bored of listing how it is better. It is literally better hardware by significant margins in every spec available. Plus, as an extra special bonus, for the Librem5, you can even get the schematics:

* https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/l5-schematic

@halla
> There is nothing in the librem5 that is an improvement on the N950.

Except for everything that can be measured.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 12:09 UTC (Thu) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link] (68 responses)

> I'm getting bored of listing how it is better. It is literally better hardware by significant margins in every spec available. Plus, as an extra special bonus, for the Librem5, you can even get the schematics:
>
> * https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/l5-schematic
>
>> There is nothing in the librem5 that is an improvement on the N950.
>
> Except for everything that can be measured.

It is certainly good they tried to build an Open Hardware device using only Free Software. But have you used it?

The hardware is comparable to my current laptop (mnt reform) and I know it could be a usable device with the right (free) software (I am using firefox with noscript and sway, a full gnome desktop however is somewhat sluggish and anything involving heavy javascript is not really that usable). It is all about expectations. It is a great device for me personally, but if your use case involves some electron apps you will be disappointed. And the librem5 is a much smaller device, so I can believe there might be issues with battery life and heath.

There also don't seem to have been made many. I also backed their fundraiser in 2017, but still haven't received a phone. I can imagine people being somewhat skeptical and disappointed receiving something that might have been a great prototype 5 years ago in 2022.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 13:47 UTC (Thu) by MatejLach (guest, #84942) [Link] (1 responses)

I feel like there are two camps with regards to mobile GNU/Linux; those of us who appreciate the effort involved in bringing up a complete mobile hardware/software ecosystem and the effort that has been put towards it so far, the various failed projects etc. etc. because we realize that there's currently not a good way to truly feel empowered and outside of the spying eyes of Apple/Google with a smartphone, (I am aware of the more privacy oriented Android ROMs that get some way there, but nowhere near to what a truly free software phone should be). We realize that Apple/Google have billions at their disposal and so even having mobile hardware capable of running Linux at all on the market is a win as things are, software can be worked on.

Then there's the camp that just wants to browse Instagram while saying to their Android-carrying friends that they're running "full-blown Linux" at parties. The Librem/PinePhone is not (yet) ready for them.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 20:55 UTC (Fri) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link]

Yes, as you said, it still takes more effort to use a Linux phone than an Android phone or an iPhone, and not everyone is willing to do it. As far as I can tell, the software is rapidly progressing; hopefully it won't be too long before it's about as usable as the other platforms.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 17:01 UTC (Thu) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (65 responses)

So @mjw you agree with @halla?

> It's [Librem5] in every respect a regression compared to the N950 from way back.

Or are you just moving the goalposts for them?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 18:36 UTC (Thu) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link] (64 responses)

> So @mjw you agree with @halla?
>
> > It's [Librem5] in every respect a regression compared to the N950 from way back.
>
> Or are you just moving the goalposts for them?

Only Halla seems to have used both the librem5 and the n950. Knowing Halla I trust her review being honest.

I am using similar hardware for my mnt reform laptop, so I know it can be made to work to be productive.
That is a totally different form factor though. I hope it also works when used in a small phone package.
But if Halla says it doesn't I don't doubt her. Even if that makes me a little sad.

I am also a librem5 backer from 2017. But still haven't seen the actual phone in person.
So I cannot tell you what my own experiences with that phone are. I do own a pinephone.
And with the keyboard, which acts as an extra battery (which is really necessary imho),
I am pretty happy with it. I did own a firefox phone before this and also found it acceptable.
Both however still come with various proprietary blobs :{

I assume your experiences are different? Do you have access to a librem5?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 18:49 UTC (Thu) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (63 responses)

> Knowing Halla

Ok, so you're moving the goalposts for your colleague.

I have Pinephones, a Librem5, N900s, Iridium, Globalstar, Inmarsat, Nexus hammerhead, Nexus bullhead, and others I'm forgetting. @mjw, you stated:

> I can believe there might be issues with battery life and heath. [of Librem5]

I can tell you "I can believe there might be issues with battery life and heath" with every battery powered device on earth, more or less, including all of the devices above. So your statement is really just some fud.

@mjw:

> Only Halla seems to have used both the librem5 and the n950

So hardware specs can't be compared? Is the N950 really so far different from the N900s, which many more have used? The N950 was DoA from day one.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 22:40 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (62 responses)

Arte you sure the hardware specs aren't a triumph of hope over experience?

Okay, there's always the odd bit of dud hardware, British Leyland comes to mind :-)

But real world experience trumps specs every time.

Cheers,
Wol

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 22:48 UTC (Thu) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (61 responses)

So @wol would you agree at least that with me in that, in regards to everything that can be measured, librem5 is superior? The ineffable that only apparently @halla can speak to, the N950 is alleged superior.

@halla
> There is nothing in the librem5 that is an improvement on the N950.

Except for everything that can be measured.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 21:35 UTC (Fri) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link] (60 responses)

You seem very eager to "win" the argument with hardware facts that people aren't disputing. Apparently you have used different free software/open hardware phones and you feel the review given by Halla (https://valdyas.org/fading/hardware/my-librem-5-has-arrived/) isn't fair.

You could simply state your own perception of using the librem5. How would you compare the software wrt other free software mobile efforts? How is the battery life? Does it run really hot when in use or charging? Can you smoothly scroll text or webpages? What are the pros and cons of the librem5 compared to other past or present open hardware mobile devices? How does it compare in cost?

I actually hope Halla is wrong, since even after 5 years I am still eagerly awaiting my librem5. But I have no reason to doubt she is sincere and really has put the effort into it (years ago, before I even started thinking about backing the librem5).

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 22:00 UTC (Fri) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (6 responses)

> You seem very eager to "win" the argument with hardware facts that people aren't disputing

But people were disputing them. I still state that by everything that can be measured, Librem5 is superior to Nokia's closed trash.

I hadn't seen Halla's review at the URL you linked. I wasn't commenting her review you linked, I was just responding to this thread. The review doesn't say significantly more than is in this thread though.

> You could simply state your own perception of using the librem5

The reality, is I don't use *any* cell phones, despite owning many. I live in Roosevelt National Forest in Northern Colorado. Believe it or not, there is lots of parts of the world that still don't have cell coverage, including me where I sit all day. (This dispite being able to *see* the tower that has the antenna for 25 years--it just doesn't point at me.) My work on it is to establish free/secure communications between people in general, not my own use. That said, I dig in pretty deep as you--you can see examples of that in Maemo wiki link, for example.

> How would you compare the software wrt other free software mobile efforts?

Well considering the desktop they developed (Phosh and other bits) is the most popular even on *other* platforms, it looks like they did a better job that the previous lame proprietary attempts.

> How is the battery life?

You can look at *any* phone on the Internet and find people complaining about battery life.

> Does it run really hot when in use or charging?

I just charged it now to confirm and the answer is NO.

> Can you smoothly scroll text or webpages?

I don't really care.

> What are the pros and cons of the librem5 compared to other past or present open hardware mobile devices?

There's almost too many to list. Look at the earlier list above. The HUGE pros are that it has a great community with a company committed to supporting that community. That's pretty much the exact opposite of Maemo(etc)/Nokia. The fact that the entire design orientation of the phone from the get-go is to protect the user, is a huge plus, because without that, we're just getting spy phones. So they pioneered hardware kill switches. It is the first phone where I can remove a modem and other bits. It is the first phone where you get exensive hardware documentation, including schematics (in KiCAD no less). I even saw on earlier generations they supplied full gerbers!

Cost to me is irrelevant for things like this. But again, I know people that just got out of prison as POWs, have been carbombed, tortured, etc...

(I could be wrong about some "firsts" if they were perhaps in OpenMoko, which I also worked on, but it is soooo long ago.)

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 24, 2022 12:37 UTC (Thu) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link] (5 responses)

> The reality, is I don't use *any* cell phones

For fuck's sake. This is perhaps the most *breathtaking* display of the Dunning-Kruger effect that I have ever seen. You are literally unqualified to have so much as an *opinion* on this topic so please stop attacking people who actually have some knowledge and/or experience.

Please

Posted Feb 24, 2022 14:21 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

We had finally managed to move on from this tiresome comment thread, please let's not restart it now.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 24, 2022 16:48 UTC (Thu) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link]

> You are literally unqualified to have so much as an *opinion* on this topic

Ridiculous. It's not like I've never used a cell phone. The last ~two years, during covid, I've pretty much just been sitting in the mountains. And where I live doesn't have coverage. I've used them in the past. I rebuilt the entire Librem5 build system to find issues. I even registered the domain "puresauce.org", to host a pure/clean version of PureOS. But it was unneccesary because the Purism folks weren't faking a free software OS, they are actually doing it.

I've done plenty with phones in the past, the best documented being Maemo for N900:

https://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba

Experience with N900, such as:

* I did a custom kernel used by others in the community.

* Solved why N900s were turning into bricks.

* Hosted the community's source repo when Nokia's was down.

* First to put Fedora on a N900, and documented how it is done.

* Also documented how to do with Mer.

* I recompiled thousands of packages of Debian Etch for Maemo.

* Documented how to do an encrypted root on the phone, amongst a lot of other docs.

Can you look through that and say I know nothing above cell phones?

It's funny how so many of these threads people are just trying to shut up other people or correct their use of a foreign language, yet those people offer up nothing.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 24, 2022 17:02 UTC (Thu) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (2 responses)

Also, I'm pretty sure I was the first person to place a phone call with oFono on a Nokia cell phone and document it:

* https://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/Ofono

One more time

Posted Feb 24, 2022 17:22 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (1 responses)

Please: stop this. LWN isn't a kindergarten playground.

Thank you.

One more time

Posted Feb 24, 2022 17:34 UTC (Thu) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link]

Ok, I'm out.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 22:05 UTC (Fri) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (45 responses)

> Can you smoothly scroll text or webpages?

To re-iterate on this, which I think is basically the fundamental difference. One side wants smooth scrolling, the other side is concern about people being killed/tortured. One side works with the folks doing the killing/torturing (e.g. Nokia's support of repressive regimes), the other side is trying to fight to get out from under that boot.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 18, 2022 1:11 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (44 responses)

One person: this phone doesn't really work well (list of reasons, some of which sound really fairly dreadful and I'm not sure a phone with a battery like that would even be legal to sell in the UK, it sounds dangerous: maybe an outright fault?)
Other person: though I don't use phones because of where I live, I'm sure this phone works well and I own a lot of similar phones (no possibility of sunk-cost bias though); this UI is 'most popular' and therefore better than the other 'lame proprietary attempts'[1]; btw anyone who disagrees with me is in league with killers and torturers.

Can you see why those of us without much of a dog in this fight might be a bit less than entirely convinced by this? Your crude attempt to paint Halla as some sort of vicious biased poison-penner in league with murderers is unlikely to fly here, where she's been a long-term commenter for years and we *know* that's not what she's like at all.

[1] also, you are apparently ignoring the fact that the proprietary and semi-proprietary competition you dismiss as 'lame' is overwhelmingly more popular to the tune of billions of users against, just possibly, a few tens of thousands at most for the free alternatives: they must be doing *something* right, and claiming they're not and we have already won and our stuff is better than theirs and their UI is just lame and needs no consideration will only ensure that we continue to fail.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 18, 2022 1:39 UTC (Fri) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (43 responses)

This is more fud than even the top comment. At least they didn't suggest the battery was dangerous (no more so than any Li). There don't appear to be any reports of your fire fud in the purism forum either. Do you care to back that up?

I don't use cell phones as I don't have cell phone coverage, but that doesn't mean I can't evaluate them. For the Purism phone I took it completely apart, reviewed components, re-created their entire build system, recompiled everything, went thru the various important bits, went thru gerbers, etc. It's not like I didn't do anything with it. This is true with a number of phones going back pre-OpenMoko and back to a 300 baud modem, if we really want to go back. I was reacting to this:

> There is nothing in the librem5 that is an improvement on the N950.

Which is so clearly false.

> lame

As far as I know, none of the proprietary Nokia Maemo offsprings have billions of users. I was refering to those proprietary implementations.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 19, 2022 0:18 UTC (Sat) by dboddie (guest, #55461) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't remember if the Gerber files for the development board were made public. I don't think the files for the phone have been published. The schematics can be found in the l5-schematic repository.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 19, 2022 1:25 UTC (Sat) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (1 responses)

They had gerbers and other KiCAD files of earlier versions of the dev boards:

* https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/dvk-mx8m-bsb/-/tree/master...

* https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/dvk-mx8m-bsb

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 19, 2022 12:16 UTC (Sat) by dboddie (guest, #55461) [Link]

Thanks for providing the link. A quick search of the repository names didn't jog any memories when I went looking earlier.

My understanding is that the board files for the phones themselves won't be released until some later point in time.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 14:18 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (39 responses)

Oh, come on, don't call things 'fud' which clearly are a case of spreading fear about reported symptoms that should be frightening. A li-ion-based device where the battery gets painfully hot on charging is *absolutely* the sort of thing which any reasonable person would consider a likely fire risk, mostly because li-ion batteries actually *can and do* catch fire really badly (even if they call it 'venting with flame', and even that euphemism is a less-than-pleasant-sounding thing) and the first symptom of this is invariably the battery getting hot, and shortly afterwards hot enough to deform the casing, and then it's serious burns city. Further comments suggested that this was a software problem and now resolved, but frankly a software problem with those symptoms is bloody worrying to me: this sort of thing should be enforced in hardware and frankly made next to impossible. Devices with li-ion batteries in are chained bombs and should be treated accordingly.

But then I live in the UK, a country with decent electrical regulations where electrical systems simply *do not* under any circumstances cause things to get hot, smoke, or spray sparks, let alone start fires, because if you sell things that do that you get shut down very hard, and if it happens nonetheless the fuse trips (assuming the device is plugged in and charging, of course); hell, even minor shorts that don't do any of those things cause the RCD to trip and the power to go out (not all houses in the UK have RCDs yet but new ones do and it's a legal requirement in rental accommodation too). I understand that much of the world (in particular the US) is quite different.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 15:33 UTC (Sun) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (29 responses)

@nix
> don't call things 'fud' which clearly are a case of spreading fear about reported symptoms that should be frightening

Except for one Nokian saying it gets hot, do you have any other basis for your fud? I can't find any instance of a fire or similar. The ones that you do mention that catch on fire, which brands were those? None were Librem5 devices, correct? Has a Nokia phone ever gotten hot? Do you have anything MEASUREABLE that shows Purism is worse?

I'd love to see some measurements! Or are you just going to make vague, baseless, accusations instead?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 17:50 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (28 responses)

My "accusations" (which are actually "worries", not "accusations") are based... the blog post that started this subthread. This seems like a reasonable basis, to me. Of course I have nothing measurable, since I don't have a Librem, like almost everyone else, whether they paid for one or not. I wasn't aware that this prohibited me from commenting on apparently serious safety issues highlighted in the original post. Perhaps Halla is not allowed to comment on it either because she didn't a) have a time machine to travel forward in time until a point at which the problem was solved or perhaps b) wasn't severely burned? Maybe she should have cleared everything with you first? I wasn't aware that was a precondition for commenting on LWN either.

Phones (and other devices with li-ion batteries) catching fire is rare because there is a lot of work put into making sure they can't: li-ion batteries do rather want to do that so they need machinery to actively prevent it. Usually when it happens it makes the press because it's so rare. When it happens to more than a few phones, whole brands get withdrawn (remember the Samsung phone fires?). The frequency of (in particular) gas evolution goes up with battery age, which is why you sometimes hear about old Kindles etc with bulging cases. Having anything remotely like it happen to a new device is evidence of a serious design flaw.

In the qualification phase (necessarily applied to new devices rather than old ones), usually getting hot is an automatic fail; deformation of the battery packaging, let alone the enclosing case due to heat or gas evolution is *definitely* an automatic fail. That doesn't mean it never happens in reality in shipping products, but it does mean that there are actual hardware mechanisms in the (mandatory, hardwired) charging circuit that try to prevent it. If the software can get in the charging circuit's way, as this failure mode suggests, that's distinctly worrying, given that that's meant to be impossible and that's the only thing standing between a battery and a bomb (or at least a pile of actual literal flaming wreckage that is likely either burning unattended while charging or burning while attached to your body: neither are good alternatives).

(btw, try not to suggest people have malevolent motives just because they disagree with you: it makes you sound like either a partisan or a flaming conspiracy theorist. I have no dog in this fight, though I at least do *have* a phone and use it, and plan to replace it, and am interested in learning about phones that might replace it, particularly those that use free software -- and would rather not get seriously literally non-metaphorically burned while doing so. Things that heat up a lot while charging, well, they worry me. They should worry you, too.)

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 18:13 UTC (Sun) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (27 responses)

@nix
> Of course I have nothing measurable

Of course.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 23:56 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (26 responses)

So... just to get this clear: reports that a battery-powered device gets hot when charging do *not* worry you, even though the device in question uses a common battery technology where getting it too hot causes it to burst into corrosive, toxic flame?

I wish I had your courage.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 1:01 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (25 responses)

@nix
> just to get this clear: reports that a battery-powered device gets hot when charging do *not* worry you

Thanks for clarifying that. Yes, *reports* would be concerning. But so far we don't have that. We have one mention that it gets "REALLY hot". So I don't call that "reports", because there is only ONE vague mention of it. It doesn't say whether it is dangerously hot or anything like that either, let alone actual temperature measurements. And no one here has provided anything beyond that single mention.

If the forum or other locations had reports of a fire or people talking about it overheating, yes, it would be concerning.

But so far the only thing I see that is concerning is a wall of text by concern trolls.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 12:55 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (24 responses)

> But so far the only thing I see that is concerning is a wall of text by concern trolls.

More baseless assumptions of malice, despite my asking you to please stop.

At least I have evidence here that starred LWN supporters can still be damn unpleasant people.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 13:13 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (23 responses)

The trouble is that too many people have been programmed to think that "anecdote == lie".

An anecdote is a dat*um* point. And people who don't want to face their prejudices write it off "because it's only one". That way they can write off hundreds of anecdotes - "There's no demand for it, and you're the hundredth person I've had to tell that to so far today!!!"

Sorry to get on my hobby horse, but nobody's EVER claimed to me that they found relational was faster than Pick. But they still can't believe the difference is like a tortoise versus Formula 1. They just dismiss the claims as anecdotes.

If people have made their mind up, there's no point bothering them with facts.

Cheers,
Wol

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 16:32 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (22 responses)

I know the difference between an anecdote and a lie.

So far there is exactly one vague assertion that it is "REALLY hot". You've done all these posts, but no one has done anything to substantiate it. Nor have they shown any case of it catching fire or similar.

I still stand by this, stronger than ever:

> There is nothing in the librem5 that is an improvement on the N950.

Except for everything that can be measured.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 18:04 UTC (Mon) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (21 responses)

> Except for everything that can be measured.

You keep saying this, are you seriously saying that e.g. battery-life is parameter that cannot be measured?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 18:16 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (1 responses)

OK, lets see some comparative measurements (e.g. doing the same thing--not one building a kernel the other idling).

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 18:37 UTC (Mon) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link]

I commented because a Librem 5 is something I might have wanted to buy, but not if it has a battery life of one to two hours.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 18:34 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (18 responses)

According to wikipedia the N950 has a 1320 mAh battery.

The Librem5 battery I have here (chestnut generation?) is 2000 mAh.

So that's a comparison that can be made, and again, the Librem5 is *measureably* better.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 19:01 UTC (Mon) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (15 responses)

> So that's a comparison that can be made, and again, the Librem5 is *measureably* better.

No. The parameter that is interesting to me is battery life, that is how long can I go before I need to charge the phone. Typically you'd
standardise on a procedure like this: https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/reviews/how-we-test-smart...

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 19:08 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (5 responses)

So if jebba wants *measurable*, what's the DRAW of those two phones.

After all, battery life keeps growing precisely because draw keeps growing. Some of the phones with the BEST battery life has some of the SMALLEST batteries. (Yes I know those phones don't do much except make calls, but surely that's the WHOLE POINT of a phone :-)

Cheers,
Wol

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 19:25 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link]

So later Nokia phones that have more mAh than the N950 are a regression?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 19:52 UTC (Mon) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link] (3 responses)

Golly gosh, this thread is still going on... It's getting a bit silly, since all this info is a google away...

Anyway, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N9#Battery, "The Nokia N9 has a BV-5JW 3.8V 1450mAh battery. According to Nokia, this provides from 7h to 11h of continuous talk time, from 16 to 19.5 days of standby, 4.5h of video playback and up to 50h of music playback."

My librem5 had a standby time of two, three hours. Google tells me "From a full charge, the mass production Librem 5 should last from 6 hours with screen on and all hardware-enabled up to 14 hours when idle with screen and WiFi off."

And like I said, I've given it away, to a postmarketos developer, so the postmarketos team now has a total of two librems to work on their OS port. They can make good use of it.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 20:01 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (2 responses)

How do the N9 and N950 batteries compare with each other in performance?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 20:15 UTC (Mon) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't see why I should spoonfeed you information you could look up yourself, but here you go, I'm bored anyway tonight.

The n950's battery was a bit smaller, so maybe you'd only two weeks of standby time out of it, instead of sixteen days... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N950 says "N950 has a 1320 mAh battery, Nokia N9 has a 1450 mAh battery". )

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 20:21 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link]

So you got two weeks standby on the N950?

If so, that would be something *measureably* better than the Librem5. Seems to be the only plus though.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 19:21 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (8 responses)

Yes, battery life is interesting to me too. Do you have any measurements comparing it to N950?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 19:42 UTC (Mon) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (5 responses)

Why would I? What makes you think I would even be interested in a N950?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 19:46 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (4 responses)

I'm not interested in N950 either (is anyone except the few devs that worked on it?). This sub-thread started because the Librem5 was being compared to the N950.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 20:16 UTC (Mon) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (3 responses)

I believe you've misunderstood the point of the original commenter.

Speaking for myself, I will consider any phone which lasts a whole day better than a Librem 5 (assuming that the 2 hour allegation is true), no matter what other
specs it has.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 20:27 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (2 responses)

"It may be a spy phone, but look at the great battery life!" ?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 20:38 UTC (Mon) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (1 responses)

I'll even consider "no phone" to be better than a Librem 5. At least that does not take any space in my pocket.

Maybe it's all been said now

Posted Feb 21, 2022 20:41 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I suspect I'm not the only one who is thinking that this thread had gone on a bit longer than was really necessary. Perhaps it's time to wind it down?

Thank you.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 20:16 UTC (Mon) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link] (1 responses)

The Nokia N9 (1450 mAh, from 2011) was advertised with 450 hours standby time on 3G, and 7 hours talk time [1]. Some testing confirmed the talk time [2] and reported 8h40 of video playback (i.e. screen on). I can't easily find numbers for the N950 (probably because it was a low-volume developer-only device so nobody bothered measuring it), but it had similar hardware and software to the N9 so it's reasonable to assume similar battery life.

Librem 5 (4500 mAh) claims "6 hours with screen on and all hardware-enabled" [3] and "a run time of about 13 hours with the screen and wifi off but data-enabled over 4G" [4]. So it's a 3x larger battery than the N9, but the N9 has slightly better screen-on time and 35x longer idle time (largely because Librem 5 hasn't got suspend-to-RAM working yet).

Not that this comparison is useful in any way. All that really matters is whether the battery lasts until you're in a convenient place to recharge it; for many people that probably means ~24 hours battery life under typical usage so they can recharge overnight and not worry about it dying in the evening when they need to e.g. call a taxi to get home. Librem 5 isn't there yet, and it's hard to tell if software improvements will be enough to get it there. (Other people may have lower requirements, of course, so it may still be okay for them.)

[1] https://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_n9-3398.php
[2] http://blog.gsmarena.com/nokia-n9-full-battery-test-is-re...
[3] https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-4500mah-battery-upgrade/
[4] https://puri.sm/posts/charging-the-librem-5/

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 20:24 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link]

So it appears that the N9 has better battery life than the Librem5. And by extension, the N950 may have better battery life. So that is something where the N950 may be better than the Librem5.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 22, 2022 16:52 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

> According to wikipedia the N950 has a 1320 mAh battery.
>
> The Librem5 battery I have here (chestnut generation?) is 2000 mAh.

Seriously?! It's quite hard to find any Android phones that literally aren't bottom-of-barrel that have batteries under 3500mAh these days: I've just been shopping; went for a Fairphone (largely because the Pixel 6 has no SD card slot and its 256GiB model appears unavailable, and the Fairphone is repairable) -- and even that, known to be a phone that specializes in things other than battery life, has a 3905mAh battery. I didn't see one single phone under 3300mAh: even ultra-cheap phones like the Moto E20 have 4000mAh batteries these days.

2000 is hilariously small. No *wonder* the battery life is poor. It would be a miracle if it weren't.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 22, 2022 17:47 UTC (Tue) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link]

The current Librem5 has 4500mAh battery, mine was an earlier generation.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 15:52 UTC (Sun) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (8 responses)

I was able to find Nokia phones catching fire. I was not able to find a Purism phone catching fire. Let me know if you do. Nokia phones on fire, random reported examples (note these are reported fires in the field, not made up by competitors):

* https://www.indiatvnews.com/technology/news-nokia-phone-c...

* https://www.theinternetpatrol.com/we-didnt-start-the-fire...

* Dailyfails sucks, but they have video:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1275685/Horr...

* https://www.ubergizmo.com/2014/09/nokia-lumia-920-catches...

* ...

From the looks of it, I could make this list 10x or 100x longer, but you get the idea. Many Nokia phones have caught on fire.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 17:51 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (7 responses)

So you actually found evidence that phones with li-ion batteries catch fire, but still you don't think I should be worried by reports of other phones with li-ion batteries getting hot when charging... because they're not the same brand?!

The mind, she boggles.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 18:10 UTC (Sun) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (6 responses)

I'm saying that Nokia phones catch on fire, and there are examples of it. There are no known examples I have found of the Librem5 catching fire. So your entire basis for suggesting they are somehow worse than others is this single line?

> Then I noticed that when it’s charging it gets REALLY hot

https://valdyas.org/fading/hardware/my-librem-5-has-arrived/

Do you have anything more substantive than that? The person that made that claim even wrote: "yes, probably I am biased". So the entire fud you push is based on someone with a documented conflict of interest, that says they are biased, that has nothing *measureable*, and there aren't other instances suggesting it is more dangerous than any other Li? That's your basis?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 18:28 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (3 responses)

Do Nokia make their own batteries? Do Librem buy their batteries from the same people Nokia do?

At the end of the day, Li-Ion batteries catch fire and explode. And I very much doubt the phone makers make their own. So I'm with Nix on this one ... ANY phone is a risk, the only question is "how much?"

Cheers,
Wol

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 18:36 UTC (Sun) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link] (2 responses)

There's nothing to suggest that the Librem5 is more dangerous than any phone out there. It is brought up just for fud.

Looking at the Librem5 battery it is made by a huge Chinese battery manufacturer that has a worldwide customer base, so their batteries have likely landed in a wide variety of phones.

@wol:
> So I'm with Nix on this one ... ANY phone is a risk, the only question is "how much?"

From everything *measureable*, such as field reports, it appears the Librem5 is safer than Nokia. On the one hand, you have a conflicted party making the claim that it gets "REALLY hot". On the other hand, there are many reports of the Nokia phones actually catching on fire. I'm not saying this can't happen to every brand out there--it can. But suggesting that the Librem5 is somehow bad or worse than others is just fud.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 0:00 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

> On the one hand, you have a conflicted party making the claim that it gets "REALLY hot".

Your entire basis for calling Halla a "conflicted party" appears to be that you disagree with her. Do you cast aspersions on the motives of everyone who disagrees with you, or what?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 21, 2022 1:03 UTC (Mon) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link]

She herself said she was biased on this very page.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 20:01 UTC (Sun) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link] (1 responses)

> I'm saying that Nokia phones catch on fire, and there are examples of it. There are no known examples I have found of the Librem5 catching fire.

Nokia Mobile reportedly sold 55 million phones (mostly non-smart) in 2020 [1]. Librem 5 had around 3000 preorders in 2017 [2] and still hasn't finished shipping them. When there's a ~100,000x difference in the number of units in the wild, it doesn't seem very useful to compare the number of news reports of rare events.

(Of course anecdotes aren't statistically meaningful either, though when one anecdote represents ~0.1% of the product's users it can't easily be dismissed as a fluke, so it seems worth investigating the root cause to determine if there's a serious problem.)

(Incidentally, even if battery fires aren't an issue, I think there are safety regulations (like IEC 60950-1) which limit the temperatures of touchable surfaces to avoid burning the user, so that may still be a concern.)

[1] https://mobiili.fi/2021/06/03/nokia-puhelinyhtio-hmd-glob...
[2] https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/10/purism-librem-5-crowd...

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 20:37 UTC (Sun) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link]

Are you suggesting that the Librem5 is in excess of IEC 60950-1?

All this is just fud that could be thrown at any phone out there, except some of them have actual examples of failure, while others don't. I still stand by this, now moreso than ever:

@halla
>> There is nothing in the librem5 that is an improvement on the N950.

> Except for everything that can be measured.

There have been many, many posts in this thread, yet none of them has shown anything measureable where the N950 is better. There has been a lot of handwaving that could apply to any phone, with nothing concrete. To me that shows that the Librem5 is *clearly superior* to any of the Nokia spyphones. I have listed where is is better in measureable ways. I haven't seen anything to dispute that, despite l the wall of texts against it.

As for @excors:
> it seems worth investigating the root cause to determine if there's a serious problem.

I agree. Where should we start? How about the person making the claim substantiate it?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 23:51 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (2 responses)

> You seem very eager to "win" the argument with hardware facts that people aren't disputing

Keep in mind, for some folks, this is a lot more ideological and therefore they are going to take offense at or attempt to dismiss any review that doesn't praise the PinePhone because in their mind, there aren't a lot of a viable alternatives. The flaws, perceived or otherwise, doesn't really matter to them. They would view any criticism of the phone as shills engaging in a proxy attack on Free software or privacy as opposed to just a criticism of this particular implementation. You are going to end up talking past each other if you don't recognize this.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 12, 2022 0:31 UTC (Sat) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link]

I appreciate this comment, as I myself certainly support PinePhones (and Purism and any similar effort). But most certainly there are *technical details* which can be looked at. And in *every single aspect* the Librem5 beats Nokia. That's what got me started on this thread, was to dispute that garbage that there were supposedly no advances with the Librem. Plus Purism added many features never seen before, which puts it in a class beyond Nokia.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 12, 2022 0:56 UTC (Sat) by jebba (guest, #4439) [Link]

I'll also note in passing that I was the first person to get Fedora running on the N900:

* https://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/Fedora

* https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=38987

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 12, 2022 22:45 UTC (Sat) by dos (guest, #103671) [Link] (3 responses)

> How would you compare the software wrt other free software mobile efforts?

I prefer phosh to other environments (but I may be biased as I take part in developing it :))

> How is the battery life?

Enough for me, about half a day. Improvements like an option to use suspend-to-RAM are still coming.

> Does it run really hot when in use or charging?

No, unless something constantly chugs the CPU at 100%, but all phones will get warm then. However, placing it near a small fan is enough to even compile large things on it without thermal throttling. It can also get quite warm when docked to an external screen and used like a computer, but that's probably not a surprise.

> Can you smoothly scroll text or webpages?

Yes.

> What are the pros and cons of the librem5 compared to other past or present open hardware mobile devices?

Cons: lacks hardware keyboard, it's big (took some time to get used to it switching from N900), early units had issues with GPS sensitivity, has no easily accessible UART access
Pros: several components are of visibly higher quality than PinePhone's, it's reasonably performant, has exceptionally easy recovery from bricking so you don't have to be afraid when hacking, it's actually usable when docked to an external screen

(not mentioning software stuff where things getting improved is just a matter of time, so such comments easily get out-of-date)

> How does it compare in cost?

Poorly, but a big chunk of that cost is directed towards software development (which then spreads to other devices as well), which is quite different from similar past or present efforts.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 13, 2022 12:08 UTC (Sun) by mjw (subscriber, #16740) [Link] (2 responses)

Thanks. It is good to hear from someone actually using a librem5. My own experiences are only with a firefox phone (sony experia) and more recently a pinephone.

> > How would you compare the software wrt other free software mobile efforts?
>
> I prefer phosh to other environments (but I may be biased as I take part in developing it :))

I am using phosh with postmarketOS and I do like it because it feels (and is of course based on) the GNOME stack which gives the phone a similar feel as my workstation environment (although it does feel a little heavyweight), although I use sway on my laptop. As far as I understand phosh with pureos would also give me a normal glibc based system. Which would be really nice.

> > How is the battery life?
>
> Enough for me, about half a day. Improvements like an option to use suspend-to-RAM are still coming.

That seems comparable to the pinephone, which seems to last 8 till 12 hours. I think that is not really enough for daily use. So I got the keyboard for it, which includes a huge battery so it can last for almost 24 hours (but of course now it is about 3 times bigger than a normal phone).

> > What are the pros and cons of the librem5 compared to other past or present open hardware mobile devices?
>
> Cons: lacks hardware keyboard, it's big (took some time to get used to it switching from N900), early units had issues with GPS sensitivity, has no easily accessible UART access
> Pros: several components are of visibly higher quality than PinePhone's, it's reasonably performant, has exceptionally easy recovery from bricking so you don't have to be afraid when hacking, it's actually usable when docked to an external screen
>
> (not mentioning software stuff where things getting improved is just a matter of time, so such comments easily get out-of-date)

Right, that has been my experience with the pinephone and postmarketOS too. It feels much nicer now than when I got it just a few months ago.

> > How does it compare in cost?
>
> Poorly, but a big chunk of that cost is directed towards software development (which then spreads to other devices as well), which is quite different from similar past or present efforts.

I don't mind funding free software development, but it is somewhat ironic that I had to buy another phone (which is just 1/4th the price and arrived within 2 weeks of ordering) to take advantage of that. I get the impression purism never shipped more than a few hundred units to some of its early backers and have trouble producing more. It would be really nice to actually get a phone after 5 years.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 13, 2022 13:07 UTC (Sun) by dos (guest, #103671) [Link]

> I get the impression purism never shipped more than a few hundred units to some of its early backers and have trouble producing more.

Low thousands have been already shipped, but the remaining queue is still long. Yes, producing more is troublesome because there's worldwide shortage of i.MX8M SoCs, so new batches only get produced and shipped once enough SoCs are procured.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 13, 2022 15:54 UTC (Sun) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link]

If you want a glibc system, maybe you could try another PinePhone distro? DanctNIX and Mobian both use glibc, as far as I know.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 9:12 UTC (Thu) by rbtree (guest, #129790) [Link] (1 responses)

> Those hardware switches? They make me go "meh". I don't give a damn, because, you know? To make the phone useful, they all need to be on.

Uh-huh. Spoken from a truly privileged position.

I live in a country where people get thrown in prison or killed for going to a peaceful protest. If I could get those hardware switches in a more mainstream device, it would be very useful indeed.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Mar 4, 2022 14:15 UTC (Fri) by chmod_a+rwx (guest, #157240) [Link]

You mean Canada?

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 14:23 UTC (Thu) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

> not to mention really ugly

I don't understand… all phones are a rectangle covered in glass on one side, and plastic/glass on the other.

And if you want your phone to last more than a couple of weeks you'll have to cover it with a case, so how it looks on the back doesn't matter, and in the front is a piece of glass.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 10:58 UTC (Fri) by ale2018 (guest, #128727) [Link] (11 responses)

> The battery lasts only a couple of hours.

Maybe a few hours more if the phone sleeps, but never 24.

> Those hardware switches? They make me go "meh".

Despite Snowden film's suggestion, I tried putting a cell-phone in a microwave oven and call it from the line phone. It rang. I bet the switches are more effective, albeit I need a magnifying glass and a Swiss Army knife to operate them.

Anyway, the reason I'm not using my PinePhone is that I'm unable to input a 64-byte network password. I tried twice, every time from scratch. WPS would be much better, however (slightly) insecure.

WiFi

Posted Feb 11, 2022 17:13 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (2 responses)

I guess from your decision to have a 64-bit WiFi password you would prefer to actually secure the network. For WiFi, prefer to have a separate 802.1x system authenticate your access credentials, this is sometimes called "Enterprise" mode WPA.

The reason isn't that this separate system will have better password security (your password might be "password") but that having handed off this problem to the other system WiFi will secure your network access with arbitrary random symmetric keys because you don't care what the keys are. Whereas when you use that 64 byte WiFi password it IS your key (until WPA3) and unless you have disabled WPA2 and updated all the hardware to close remaining loopholes attackers may be able to recover the key.

A WPA2 (or WPA) "personal" network can be snooped silently by anybody who knows, or expects to eventually discover, the shared secret password, everything anybody on the network transmits is "secured" by that shared secret. If they choose to transmit, they can impersonate the Access Points or their clients or both as they wish.

WiFi

Posted Feb 18, 2022 1:17 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

Hm. This is something of which I had never heard before. Any suggestions as to what system should be doing the actual securing? (Assuming, of course, I can find any wifi APs costing under £400 and which are actually available in this shortage economy which can do such a thing. My UniFi can, I think, but I really want to move away from it... and not only because it's twelve years old.)

WiFi

Posted Feb 19, 2022 20:48 UTC (Sat) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

Unless you actually _are_ a large enterprise (in which case you should have done this long ago) you just need any RADIUS server such as FreeRADIUS. I have no suggestion on APs. However if you're buying a new AP anyway, you get the same security upgrade if you speak WPA3 regardless of whether you have Enterprise mode so that saves learning how RADIUS works.

Essentially WPA3 gives everybody the WiFi network security you'd get with Enterprise (even if bad guys know the password for your network they can't just decrypt radio messages, they need to actively authenticate to the network and get issued with random keys to use it), and so for Enterprise which already had those benefits the upgrade is mostly little nice-to-have improvements like, Protected Management Frames are always switched on.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 21:08 UTC (Fri) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link] (7 responses)

What problem have you had entering the password? The PinePhone WiFi shouldn't be any different from a laptop.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 12, 2022 11:23 UTC (Sat) by ale2018 (guest, #128727) [Link] (6 responses)

I've used that 64 byte password for years, stored on a small USB key thaat one can copy it from and paste it when asked to. The PinePhone has no other input system than a virtual keyboard —oops, right after writing that sentence I recalled the microSD.

In general, long network passwords are ubiquitous. I'll try and set up WPS. It should be preinstalled.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 12, 2022 15:47 UTC (Sat) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link] (2 responses)

Do you have the convergence docking bar? A USB drive should work with the dock.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 12, 2022 22:47 UTC (Sat) by dos (guest, #103671) [Link] (1 responses)

Even a passive USB-C to USB-A adapter should do.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 13, 2022 1:54 UTC (Sun) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link]

Yes, that would work too.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 13, 2022 9:24 UTC (Sun) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link]

Mobian is configured by default (or is it with installing the tweaks package?) to set a usb0 network interface. For me, ssh over that interface from my laptop is the simplest way to copy files. Or ssh over it and setup the interface using nmtui or whatever.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 19, 2022 22:40 UTC (Sat) by tpiekarski (guest, #138813) [Link]

Why you do not memorize it then? :D
To be frank having such secure password for your precious WLAN and keeping it at some USB pendrive to copy&paste it around is, well... let me guess this pendrive is encrypted and the passphrase is stored on another pendrive, so I guess one Micro-SD card slot won't do the trick. Sorry I know my comment is stupid but I can not help it... just use a normal-length password.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 19, 2022 23:18 UTC (Sat) by tpiekarski (guest, #138813) [Link]

Sorry, I apologize for the sarcasm in my previous comment. I hope you could gain access to your WLAN using WPS or with a microSD and now started using an online PinePhone.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 15, 2022 23:31 UTC (Tue) by ppisa (subscriber, #67307) [Link] (5 responses)

I have received my Librem 5 Evergreen in November 2021.

I have backed the project more as an investment into free ecosystem than the device for daily use. I use still old classical handy which is not part of the big two ecosystem.

I have been surprised how smooth the interface of the Librem 5 was immediately at arrival time. We have done own design from raw iMX1 chip level for infusion systems more than 20 years ago. Something like 5 years ago I have managed to setup fully open source Etnaviv iMX6 setup for our partners etc. But i.MX8 is significant step forward. Yes, when I have shown (with great self happiness) Librem 5 scrolling through document to Apple devices addicted friend he frowned upon it that it is old toy with 10 Hz display refresh and without more interest. But I think that he has not any real clue how would look scrolling through full Librem 5 PDF schematics look on his adored Apple.

I can confirm that the initial experiments with charging through different docking stations lead to strange states in the power chip and that there has been sometimes reported lost of I2C connection to the battery management chip and device got hot. But progress on kernel side is fast (actual 5.16 kernel) and after update somewhere in December I have not noticed any misbehave battery system. Battery operation time is sort, I agree. But today kernel update give me to the state where echo mem >/sys/power/state works even when Librem 5 is connected to the external USB-C hub and command is send over SSH. When waked by power or volume keys, everything works correctly. Yes, each such attempt with previous kernel version lead to crash. Yes, when suspended then GSM modem is active, I can reach the device from mo company VoIP and it sounds as not answering call, because wakeup from suspend by the modem is not working (yet). I think that this will be resolved. Question is if there is not missing some low power consumption notification link, i.e. UART between GSM and main CPU, because active USB connection would draw power even in suspend mode. Same doubt is for USB connected second/removable SD card. But these things can be commented only after kernel/SW advances.

I was really surprised that phone calls and SMS works from the beginning, I expected that it would take longer time to get that worked. I have notice only once that I have been on the cell where for some reason modem did managed switch from G3 to GSM when call arrived. Again this is quite complex when mobile data are active. VoIP calls over WiFi and G3 works out of the box.

Yes, camera software and many other has long way to go, but HW seems to be in the proper shape to deliver data into actual sometimes hackish application (i.e. camera focus control over external direct I2C debug utility run as root).

I have some problems with WiFi signal strength but not debugged it. May it be that our university Eduroam installation tries to pass the device from one AP to another and cooperation is not ideal. But generally it works. Actual version of the WiFi/BT card firmware does not support BlueTooth Low Energey so I cannot test Librem 5 with more BLE devices which we have designed as well as with PineTime. Not so critical and I hope that chip firmware will be updated by its producer. The M.2 card with SDIO WiFi can be replaced in the future as the last resort. I miss PCIe to USB-C and M.2 cards which would allow me some more development and test with our HW. But on the other hand USB is power hungry and PCIe would be even worse so for undocked/unpowered state it would have no value. USB-C works well and I have tested with external USB-C to NVME converter disk read speed 300 MB/s. Yes, internal eMMC and integrated USB SD card solution is much less capable. But CPU chip works well and managing seamlessly working USB-C which delivers full HD desktop to external monitor together with USB peripherals and ETHERNET confirm sound expertise in the HW design.

There seems to be problems with GPS antenna and or signal path for now but it seems from schematics revisions that newer batches has some corrections in this regard. Unfortunately achieved carrier to noise ratios for different batches are not reported by company and they seems to hide problems instead of the full openness and communication with community what can be enhanced.

Generally I see Librem 5 as big step forward and prove that phone can be developed and usable without need to be bound to one of two global masters.

So I consider Halla statements as unfair, in many areas already untrue because they are based on three months old experience and pretending them to be set in stone makes the speaker wisdom doubtful. Many aspects are already enhanced and many can and would be probably enhanced in the future.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 18, 2022 1:21 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (4 responses)

Now that's a magisterial comment! but it says to me not that Halla was unfair, but that Halla was *right*. The software has moved on since then, but that doesn't mean it wasn't like that three months ago. Three months is, honestly, not a very long time, especially not with Christmas in the middle of it...

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 18, 2022 8:11 UTC (Fri) by ppisa (subscriber, #67307) [Link] (3 responses)

But actual comment from halla is from Feb 9, 2022, it pretends that device is unusable and that Purism is incapable. But she does not inform that it is based on the three months old short experience which reveals only after mjw reported to her October 2, 2021 "My Librem 5 has arrived" article.

So I think that it is not fully fair to Purism. On the other hand I have some deal with Purism support https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/OS-issues/-/issues/252 where they do not want to reveal background information behind GNSS fix to bring up previous batch HW revision to the actual one. As the embedded HW and system architects and computer architectures courses guarantor, I do not like to solder in the system when I have no complete information and cannot check state before and after fix against some data reported by company from more pieces...

But generally I appreciate Purism effort which goes into ecosystem development and in the fact is seems that the made even PinePhone usable by Posh and other components investment and the managed to integrate convergence enhancements into mainline GTK and Gnome so the result of their good work survives even if the concrete Librem 5 project does not be fully successful on HW side.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 14:29 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (2 responses)

> But actual comment from halla is from Feb 9, 2022, it pretends that device is unusable and that Purism is incapable.

... so now you're calling her a liar? (Either that, or you're using the word "pretends" incorrectly: possibly you mean "suggests", which does not imply intentional deceit. I'm not sure.)

> But she does not inform that it is based on the three months old short experience

... err,, a) there is a date on the article which makes it clear that it's from a few months ago and b) it makes it clear that it's from a lot *less* than three months' experience because the device wasn't usable enough to actually use. This all came across perfectly clearly to me in the article: I suspect, from your comment, that it didn't come across to you, perhaps because of a language barrier.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 16:46 UTC (Sun) by ppisa (subscriber, #67307) [Link] (1 responses)

OK, I have mean more "pretend" in the meaning "claim" which was my feeling of the word and is even one meaning according to my Czech to English dictionary when I check it now. I did not want to mark her directly as a liar but I feel her claim as overrated and emotional and underrating Purism effort too much. But I am not native speaker, so I speak Czenglish it is possible that each of us understand worlds meaning and intonation different. .... But from the initial comment only, there is no link to article and can be easily misinterpreted that she comments actual state, so I feel the comment as at least little unfair. But she probably feels that her experience was probably so strong that the comment is appropriate.

And yes, when I rested the movement of menus etc. again, then it could be probably better accelerated and more smooth etc. But it is far under my level of feeling unconformable. But can be problem for somebody. There are some surprises on the road, i.e. you go through smooth mobile adaptive setup of the WiFi and at the moment when I have selected Enterprise WPA you find that you need external monitor or change display zoom, rotate etc to get forward because that dialog does not fit on the device screen. It was situation three months ago when I have setup my EDUROAM account. May it be it is solved already. When you run VLC and move it on the external screen the widow decoration is (was, I have not checked today) only black rectangle, but could be drag and resized by mouse. So yes, there is long way to go. But I would not call software as completely buggy. I would say that it is in evolution. I have stuck GUI and or whole device during some experiments with different USB-C devices, monitors end and have to reset it, may it be five times. No data lost. But during normal use I have not experienced hard stuck of the system, it was during real experiments. I have it connected to ETHERNET in the dock over whole day and tinkered with it and again no problems. Only one incominig call silent over many attempts, and it was in November... Not counting actual unfinished suspend state. There could be overheat stuck in my initial tests three months ago. But I have not noticed any such misbehavior from December... So I would declare core hardware, CPU, charging, kernel and graphics engine support as stable now... and quite usable even for non standard setups, i.e. external monitor, keyboard, mouse, virtual mouse on display and I test Telegram not over its native client but over libpurple plugin and even it works. It has some lag (5, 10 sec) at each initial synchronization when mobile or WiFi connection becomes available but then it works for whole days reliably. Sometimes latest message after reconnect is duplicated... But that is probably common problem on libpurple Telegram plugin side. I like virtual keyboard, terminal, even calls (for both mobile and VoIP) and chatty as the reasonably ergonomics applications. Touch copy paste between applications has not ideal ergonomic yet. But you can use virtual keyboard menu key and get to the function usually. Solution is in the discussion/progress. If battery life can be prolonged by power management I can imagine to use it as my main phone in the town. In the countryside, it is too expensive to scratch it and battery is and will probably be a problem. I hope that GPS will be resolved at the end, so it is platform to test and develop some, ideally, offline navigation applications in car, for sure much behind OsmAnd initially... But management over SSH, aptitude, usability as full Linux desktop and Debian are plus not found on the mass produced mobiles...

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 20, 2022 17:54 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

> I have mean more "pretend" in the meaning "claim" which was my feeling of the word and is even one meaning according to my Czech to English dictionary when I check it now.

And so it is! But, uh... not for about a hundred and fifty years. That's a likely meaning if you're reading Jane Austen, but totally obsolete since at the very earliest 1920 and probably much earlier. It is never used with that meaning nowadays.

(I wish more dictionaries highlighted when meanings were obsolete like this. In my experience, native-language dictionaries usually do it, but X-to-Y often fail to do so, with frequently unfortunate or hilarious results.)

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 9, 2022 18:11 UTC (Wed) by tau (subscriber, #79651) [Link] (1 responses)

As I understand it Pine64 has a rather counterproductive funding model for the community projects that they support; instead of supporting hardware enablement in upstream projects (like e.g. the Asahi Linux project) they give money to distribution projects, some of which have rather opaque and dubious accounting for what they do with the money. It encourages and financially rewards forking and duplication of what very meager manpower exists to support this project.

https://drewdevault.com/2022/01/18/Pine64s-weird-prioriti...

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 9, 2022 18:19 UTC (Wed) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link]

Yes, that has been an issue. As far as I know, most of the lower-level work is done by hobbyists, without funding from Pine64; hopefully Pine64 will begin to give more funding to hardware enablement projects.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 5:20 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (2 responses)

> proprietary modem firmware

Interestingly, the modem itself runs Linux on its ARM processor, and folks are working on replacing the proprietary software running under Linux on that processor.

https://xnux.eu/devices/feature/modem-pp.html
https://xnux.eu/devices/feature/modem-pp-reveng.html

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 11:52 UTC (Thu) by pothos (subscriber, #116075) [Link]

This here is the FOSS firmware: https://github.com/Biktorgj/pinephone_modem_sdk but the ADSP firmware is a binary blob, and probably won't be something to tinker with anyway due to compliance to radio standards.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 12:33 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

> Interestingly, the modem itself runs Linux on its ARM processor, and folks are working on replacing the proprietary software running under Linux on that processor.

Note that they can [try to] develop a free replacement only because we have a phone which is oh-so-disrespectful WRT to you freedom. If it would have “respected” it like FSF wants, then nope, there wouldn't have been any hope of us ever getting a free replacement.

Increased Power usage in convergence mode

Posted Feb 10, 2022 6:50 UTC (Thu) by pmenzel (subscriber, #113811) [Link] (3 responses)

> Alternatively, any USB-C hub that supports USB-C DisplayPort alt mode and has HDMI output should be
> compatible, although one without the ability to charge the phone from the hub would not be
> recommended due to the increased power usage while docked.

I would have assumed the power usage drops in convergence mode, as the phone display is turned off, and modern graphics devices do not need a lot of power to render(?) images for even a 4K display.

Increased Power usage in convergence mode

Posted Feb 10, 2022 7:32 UTC (Thu) by zauguin (subscriber, #138185) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't have such a phone, but given that the article claims

> Any programs that are open on the phone screen can be easily moved to the monitor and vice versa.

I would assume that the phone display is not turned off in that mode.

Increased Power usage in convergence mode

Posted Feb 10, 2022 14:13 UTC (Thu) by linmob (guest, #156617) [Link]

Exactly, it isn't turned off by default (it can be turned off, though). I've made videos about PinePhone convergence a while back: https://linmob.net/videos/#convergence

It's also worth noting that the Mali 400 MP2 GPU in the Allwinner A64/PinePhone is not exactly a modern GPU powerhouse.

Increased Power usage in convergence mode

Posted Feb 10, 2022 20:01 UTC (Thu) by UniversalSuperBox (✭ supporter ✭, #133646) [Link]

You forget that this is the Allwinner A64. The memory bandwidth cost of pushing 1920x1080 pixels against the internal display's 720x1440 is already a lot for the little thing. Never mind the Mali 400-MP2 graphics core design from 2008.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 10, 2022 19:06 UTC (Thu) by osma (subscriber, #6912) [Link] (2 responses)

Thanks for an interesting read. It's good to get an update on Linux based (non-Android) smartphones.

I've been using Sailfish OS for many years now on different devices - starting from the original Jolla phone, then a Jolla C and nowadays a Sony Xperia XA2. Although the UI layer is proprietary, Sailfish is otherwise a fully functional Linux system. There's also an Android emulation layer that works for most apps. Unlike Android, you aren't forced to use Google services for everything.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 13:58 UTC (Fri) by MatejLach (guest, #84942) [Link] (1 responses)

While I like Sailfish, I feel like it's not the same; i.e. it's more akin to Ubuntu Touch than Phosh.
That is it is Linux, but it's not the familiar userland you know, the apps have to be made specifically for Sailfish, you have to do a bit of fiddling to install RPMs and even then the experience is clearly sub-par over the native Sailfish apps or even the Android ones.

In other words, it feels like its own system. Cool and I think the UI has a lot of nice gestures etc. to learn from, but Phosh feels a lot more like having desktop GNOME on a GNU/Linux system in the palm of your hand, you can run it on legit ARM Debian or Arch Linux and install many of the packages you'd expect without additional hoops to jump, commands to enter, root to gain etc. That's not to say there's no scaling issues etc. but the experience is much more akin to desktop GNU/Linux then my experience with Sailfish suggests.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 21:06 UTC (Fri) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link]

Sailfish and Ubuntu Touch do sound interesting, although "normal desktop Linux" is the main reason I bought the PinePhone. I probably won't use Sailfish because of the proprietary parts, but I'll probably try Ubuntu Touch at some point.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 9:13 UTC (Fri) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm tempted to get one myself — I've been using a decade-old GNexus with all the "value adds" surgically removed from the filesystem because I prefer to live in uninteresting times, but wow does Firefox hate the GPU on it. Both of those things are unrepairable so I've learned to live without the web, perhaps for the better with the way things are going.

The PinePhone sounds boring in a good way, and it looks like it can run at least a few of the fascinating toys I've found on f-droid over the years. Bit premature to say this, but this may be the closest thing to the straight upgrade I've been looking for.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 21:03 UTC (Fri) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link]

Yeah, Firefox does work okay on the PinePhone, although having more than a tab or two open makes it very slow. The majority of F-Droid apps with no anti-features should work; it's mostly dependencies on Google apps and services that make apps not work. "Boring in a good way" is a good way (no pun intended) to describe it; it's similar to a normal phone enough to mostly be used as one, and it's similar enough to a Linux desktop or laptop to run most of the programs; it doesn't have many unique features, it's the combination of phone and desktop features that makes it interesting.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 13:27 UTC (Fri) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link] (2 responses)

I appreciate the efforts put into this, and into similar projects like KDE Plasma Mobile.

But, what I as an Android user would actually prefer, would be if the focus would be to make more FLOSS applications available on Android, instead of replacing Android.
I'm used to run Linux and I trust the packages provided by distributions, coming from well known authors or projects.
In the Android app store there is just a bunch of stuff, some free of cost, some with in-app purchases, some cost money from the start. It's a mix if stuff from various, to me unknown sources, most of them not FLOSS.

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 13:34 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (1 responses)

> But, what I as an Android user would actually prefer, would be if the focus would be to make more FLOSS applications available on Android, instead of replacing Android.

How is that different from https://f-droid.org/

PinePhone: trying out a Linux-based smartphone

Posted Feb 11, 2022 15:42 UTC (Fri) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link]

It is not different. I mean, I would see it more useful to try to get more stuff into f-droid over trying to get all of Android replaced.


Copyright © 2022, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds