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The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

By Jake Edge
November 11, 2020

Toward the end of October, GitHub removed the repository for the youtube-dl utility, which provides a means to download video content from various streaming sites, such as YouTube. The repository was replaced with a cheery notice that it had been removed due to a DMCA takedown. It will likely come as no surprise that the DMCA action came from the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) or that the complaint was that the program circumvented the "technological protection measures" used on the videos by YouTube and other authorized sites.

If the goal of that notice was to somehow erase youtube-dl from the internet, the effort could not have been more misguided. Predictably, the notice fully revalidated the "Streisand effect": as word filtered out, youtube-dl was spread far and wide. Beyond that, many who had never heard of the program before were suddenly aware of its existence, purpose, and the threat to its continued existence. Meanwhile, youtube-dl is still available for download, packaged for Linux distributions, and so on. The repository shutdown is an inconvenience to the project and its users but not much more than that.

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a US law—ostensibly about protecting copyright-holders—that has been (ab)used in a wide variety of ways by the enormous content conglomerates that hold the bulk of the copyrights for music, television, movies, and so on. In particular, the anti-circumvention provisions have been invoked in dubious ways to try to prevent competition in printer-ink cartridges, thwart investigation into the Volkswagen emissions cheating, and to chill cryptographic research of various sorts. While the DMCA itself is US law, it was written to implement two World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) treaties, so the effects are more widely applicable.

The RIAA is no stranger to using the DMCA, of course. The organization has been sending takedown notices since the DMCA was enacted and was filing lawsuits against alleged copyright infringers before that. There are certainly legitimate infringement problems that the organization and its members have targeted along the way, but their blanket attacks and overreach (e.g. the the "dancing baby" video takedown) have also done much to paint the law (and the RIAA) in a rather bad light—not that it has resulted in any changes to the DMCA, sadly.

While youtube-dl can be used to circumvent the controls that streaming services place on their content, it can also be used for a wide variety of other tasks, many of which are perfectly legal. In addition, as the creator of youtube-dl, Ricardo García, recently pointed out, there are some who are unable to see these videos without using a tool like youtube-dl. While bandwidth has increased in many areas since youtube-dl was created in 2006, there are still plenty of folks who live at the end of a tiny, unreliable pipe. Beyond that, those with metered access might not want to pay multiple times to replay a video that they like. Those types of uses might not strictly be legal, but they are understandable; the RIAA, however, is not known for making distinctions of that sort.

The Freedom of the Press Foundation has described a number of different youtube-dl use cases for journalists, who need to be able to do things that are simply impossible without having direct access to the video content. The videos in question are generally not copyrighted by RIAA members, but, once again, the RIAA takes an "all or nothing" approach to the tool. In its notice to GitHub, the RIAA points to some specific entries in the source code that refer to pop music videos copyrighted by its members:

The source code notes that the Icona Pop work identified above is under the YouTube Standard license, which expressly restricts access to copyrighted works only for streaming on YouTube and prohibits their further reproduction or distribution without consent of the copyright owner; that the Justin Timberlake work identified above is under an additional age protection identifier; and that the request for the Taylor Swift work identified above is to obtain, without authorization of the copyright owner or YouTube, an M4A audio file from the audiovisual work in question.

A look at the Python source code shows that those works (and others) are used as tests; they are not presented as "sample uses" of the tool, as described. In an interview with former maintainer Phillip Hagemeister, he describes the tests as simply downloading the first 10KB of the videos in question, which amounts to a few seconds of video, to ensure that the formats are still being handled correctly. "This is certainly fair use, but the project is fully functional without these test cases." If he were still involved in the project, he would be in favor of removing them from the source code, however, presumably to try to placate the RIAA. He also provided some more reasons why youtube-dl is important:

youtube-dl is very valuable for many purposes: It enables video playback on devices where the web interface is not suitable (e.g. Raspberry Pis), it allows playback for disabled users, it powers research projects which analyze videos, and you can just watch videos when there may be no stable Internet connection. This should be unequivocally allowed and even supported for the good of society, while keeping the ability of content producers to benefit from their creations.

It is undoubtedly true that youtube-dl is used to download copyrighted work out from under its technological protections, but it is not at all clear that is the dominant use for the tool. Given that YouTube and other sites have vast arrays of user-uploaded content that is not subject to the same restrictions as the RIAA's precious content, any tool to access it will need to be able to use those sites in ways that are outside of the web-based interaction provided. Since there are also good reasons why people might want to view these videos in ways that RIAA members have not envisioned—or countenanced—any useful tool will need to be able to decode all of the different formats provided by the platforms. As with all tools, youtube-dl can be used in many different ways, some that even the RIAA might find to be acceptable.

One guesses that the abrupt shutdown of its repository will not seriously deter the project moving forward. But it is not clear what data the project was able to extract from GitHub beyond just the Git repository itself. There are a number of additional features at GitHub, such as the issue tracker, pull request discussions, and wiki, that could be lost forever. That would be unfortunate, but is one of the dangers projects face when choosing to host their project at a site like GitHub—the data is not always easily backed up, nor is it readily imported into another hosting site if needed.

Based on the perfectly predictable outcome of the notice, it is hard to see what the RIAA strategy or goal really is here. It seems unlikely that the highest levels of the organization's leadership were involved in the decision; perhaps some low-level RIAA lawyer was doing a bit of "freelancing" on behalf of the members. In any case, the notice was made and GitHub had to act on it. There are indications that the company is not happy with the situation, but that does not really change much either.

These days, though, GitHub is owned by Microsoft, which, famously, (now) "loves open source". Microsoft is also a member of the RIAA, which has led the Software Freedom Conservancy to ask the tech giant to resign from the RIAA over the youtube-dl DMCA notice.

To build a strong community of FOSS developers, we need confidence that our software hosting platforms will fight for our rights. While we'd prefer that Microsoft would simply refuse to kowtow to institutions like the RIAA and reject their DMCA requests, we believe in the alternative Microsoft can take the easy first step of resigning from RIAA in protest. We similarly call on all RIAA members who value FOSS to also resign.

So far, there have been no public statements from GitHub, Microsoft, or the youtube-dl project; one suspects there may be some discussions going on behind the scenes, though. The whole episode is something of a black eye for GitHub, but that is not particularly fair; the RIAA and the various governmental entities involved in creating the WIPO treaties should really bear the brunt of the opprobrium. But regardless of any of that, removing youtube-dl (or something derived from it) from the internet is, effectively, impossible—much like trying to put toothpaste back into the tube. For now, at least, youtube-dl can still be found in the GitHub DMCA repository, ironically, and in countless other locations as well.



to post comments

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 11, 2020 23:28 UTC (Wed) by Sesse (subscriber, #53779) [Link] (7 responses)

Uh… why is youtube-dl available in the dmca repository? I assumed there was a thing on GitHub where you could ask for any blob in any repo (and it would look like it belonged to that repo, even though it didn't), but that blob didn't work in another random one I tried… is it somehow counted as a fork of youtube-dl, which is why it works?

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 11, 2020 23:34 UTC (Wed) by pkern (subscriber, #32883) [Link] (6 responses)

Yup. It's not any random repo, it's that all forked public repositories share the git object storage. Effectively one storage area per project. And apparently making a repo private disconnects you from that.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 11, 2020 23:41 UTC (Wed) by Sesse (subscriber, #53779) [Link] (5 responses)

And the dmca repo is… forked from youtube-dl?

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 11, 2020 23:45 UTC (Wed) by lkundrak (subscriber, #43452) [Link] (2 responses)

No, but supposedly someone forked the DMCA repo and pushed youtube-dl into their fork.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 11, 2020 23:51 UTC (Wed) by Sesse (subscriber, #53779) [Link]

Ah, that's a neat trick. Although I thought GitHub had banned the specific blobs, but evidently not (yet?).

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 14, 2020 14:54 UTC (Sat) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]

Someone committted the entire sourcecode to the DMCA project via a bug that github has refused to fix as a form of protest of both parts.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 12, 2020 13:22 UTC (Thu) by jak90 (subscriber, #123821) [Link] (1 responses)

No. Somebody uploaded a clone of the youtube-dl repository and referenced its HEAD in an issue on the DMCA repository, which makes that specific reference from the global object storage available through the "victim" repository. This meant you could checkout the master branch of the youtube-dl repository like this:
git clone -n https://github.com/github/dmca.git youtube-dl && \
	cd youtube-dl && \
	git fetch origin 416da574ec0df3388f652e44f7fe71b1e3a4701f && \
	git checkout FETCH_HEAD
They finally fixed that on October 28th, though.
fatal: remote error: upload-pack: not our ref 416da574ec0df3388f652e44f7fe71b1e3a4701f

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 12, 2020 15:24 UTC (Thu) by pkern (subscriber, #32883) [Link]

In my understanding it still required forking the dmca repo and uploading to that fork. The reference from an issue just made it permanent. Note that GitHub threatened to ban users who keep doing that, according to https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/software/github-thr...

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 12, 2020 2:11 UTC (Thu) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link]

Stop uploading to youtube and github, delete facebook, lawyer up, hit the gym. ;)

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 12, 2020 3:21 UTC (Thu) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

RIAA delenda est. My opinion hasn't changed since the days of the Sony CD malware attack and suing casual filesharing program users into poverty. There can be no room for negotiation on this.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 12, 2020 3:33 UTC (Thu) by kuon (guest, #135598) [Link] (13 responses)

For me, the good side of this (well, I see it as good now) is that this whole saga convinced me to self host my git projects. It took some effort but about 250 repos were moved to a gitea instance I own.

It made me realize how dependent we were on github. It is a good tool, there is no deny that, but we are giving away a lot of control over our own projects in return.

I wish some larges foss projects would move away from github, to help ensure that the alternatives stays alive.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 12, 2020 4:06 UTC (Thu) by pj (subscriber, #4506) [Link] (4 responses)

I'm waiting for someone (gitlab? gitbucket? someone) to build a federated version so we can self-host but still be part of a single community.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 12, 2020 7:10 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 14, 2020 13:59 UTC (Sat) by Lennie (subscriber, #49641) [Link] (2 responses)

Some IPFS options also exist.

https://radicle.xyz/ is the most advanced is my guess.

I hope those get developed further.

My guess is we need good protocols on how to do storage on IPFS for git data, possibly part of regular git program long term.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 15, 2020 3:02 UTC (Sun) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (1 responses)

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 17, 2020 9:54 UTC (Tue) by Lennie (subscriber, #49641) [Link]

As mentioned I hope they settle on the same protocol and an official helper gets added to git binary distribution.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 12, 2020 4:07 UTC (Thu) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

> I wish some larges foss projects would move away from github

I've noticed some have pre-emptively set up Gitlab mirrors in the last week or two. That's better than nothing I suppose, but disaster recovery *cannot* be a reactive process.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 14, 2020 15:06 UTC (Sat) by ghorbanian (guest, #129503) [Link] (6 responses)

Has anyone looked into using block-chain to decentralize code repositories?

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 14, 2020 16:19 UTC (Sat) by terminalnode (guest, #134544) [Link]

Not entirely sure how it works, what it's limitations are etc, but there is a token (on the ethereum chain I believe) called gitcoin.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 14, 2020 16:57 UTC (Sat) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link]

Is the problem a centralized repository (given how easy it is to recover using local copies) or other infrmation such as pull requests and bugs?

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 15, 2020 16:07 UTC (Sun) by Paf (subscriber, #91811) [Link] (1 responses)

The problem the blockchain solves is essentially distributed agreement on transactions with resistance to tampering *in the context of ongoing distributed agreement*, ie, further transactions and modifications from anywhere. I don’t think the security problems it solves are really of concern for a code repository - there’s a single authoritative version from somewhere, presumably, and a limited number of folks who can change it. Just sign or encrypt the thing being distributed.

In fact, if you don’t need to solve those specific security problems, blockchain is a shit way of distributing stuff - it has *massive* overhead vs a distributed protocol without “proof of work” (or proof of whatever you’d like). If your fundamental goal is to get *data* around in a trusted manner - rather than do distributed agreement type things - blockchain is not a good answer.

We know how to build distributed services, I think the problem is practicality and combining distributed service with ease of finding things and all the other stuff - as you mentioned - that a system like GitHub provides.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 15, 2020 16:07 UTC (Sun) by Paf (subscriber, #91811) [Link]

Sorry, tzafrir mentioned the other forge services aspect.

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 18, 2020 7:43 UTC (Wed) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (1 responses)

Yeah, if only there were some blockchain-based DVCS created as a response to gatekeepers using legal threats to shut down the collaboration tools of a well-known project…

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 18, 2020 8:13 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

I seem to recall that there's such a project. What was the name... something like "dork"..?

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 9:18 UTC (Thu) by ldearquer (guest, #137451) [Link] (33 responses)

I always thought the copyright law was all about redistributing. So, if I am given a copy of some work, I can only use it privately. I still can make copies, as long as I keep them private.

But in this case, copies are offered for free by using a browser. The content is already downloaded, and a copy is in my machine. So what if I use program Z or Y to store it locally, play it backwards, invert the color or whatever I want, as long as I don't redistribute it?

Kind of like recording TV programs

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 11:01 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

That's why they needed a new law, the DMCA (now over 20 years old), to criminalize otherwise legal stuff. Even so, this seems a huge stretch.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 12:19 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (30 responses)

> So what if I use program Z or Y to store it locally, play it backwards, invert the color or whatever I want, as long as I don't redistribute it?

Because actually, copyright is nothing to do with distribution and everything to do with copying. I can buy a book and lend ("distribute") it to all my friends, so long as it's the original each time. I HAVEN'T COPIED IT.

What I can't do is buy a CD, put it in my library, and make a copy of it for my car so that if my car gets broken in to I don't lose the original.

And this is why, when computers and copyright meet, things get extremely messy. Because the normal operation of computers REQUIRES making copies. Temporary copies, permanent copies, the law doesn't care. IT'S ILLEGAL by default. Which is why software comes with licence agreements, giving you permission to make the copies you need to use the software.

Nowadays, it's made simpler (and murkier) by "implied permission" - if you *need* to make copies, then you have default permission for those copies AND THOSE COPIES ALONE. But one only has to read the piece by the author of youtube-dl to know that what may be called "necessary" by one person is called "reckless disregard for the law" by someone else ...

Cheers,
Wol

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 14:09 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (20 responses)

> What I can't do is buy a CD, put it in my library, and make a copy of it for my car so that if my car gets broken in to I don't lose the original.
Actually it's perfectly legal to make a copy of a CD for personal, non-commercial use. Even the RIAA says so. This is long-established.

The DMCA criminalizes this if you are circumventing access controls -- including on a DVD that you bought legally to play on your own computer, without making any copies. CDs have no access controls and the DMCA does not apply.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 14:58 UTC (Thu) by geert (subscriber, #98403) [Link] (6 responses)

I thought the access controls on a DVD prevent the _playback_ of the DVD, not its copying?

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 16:28 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (5 responses)

No :-(

They mess about with a lot of stuff, and commercial DVDs won't copy - I've tried.

Cheers,
Wol

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 18:57 UTC (Thu) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (4 responses)

It's not that the commercial DVDs are uncopyable so much as the blank, writable DVDs lack the specific storage region needed for the CSS keys. As such, you can't burn an encrypted DVD image to regular retail DVDs (such that the resulting DVD can be played back) regardless of where it came from—that includes not only copies of commercial discs but even ones you created yourself. The anti-copying measure isn't actually in the commercial discs but rather in the blanks. It doesn't prevent anyone from extracting a bit-for-bit image of an encrypted DVD, but that doesn't do you any good unless you have the industrial equipment necessary to produce discs with the CSS keys included.

DVD anti-copying measures

Posted Nov 15, 2020 4:41 UTC (Sun) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link] (3 responses)

So that's what prevents making a physical copy, but what prevents you from making a usable copy of the content on a flash drive or whatever is the encryption. That's the technological measure you have to circumvent to make that kind of copy.

If the encryption just stopped you from playing the DVD, I don't think DMCA would have much to say about it.

What takes most people by surprise about DMCA is that if you circumvent the encryption just to play the DVD, not to copy it, you're still in violation of the DMCA, because you are circumventing a technological measure that also prevents copying.

DVD anti-copying measures

Posted Nov 15, 2020 6:12 UTC (Sun) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (2 responses)

> …what prevents you from making a usable copy of the content on a flash drive or whatever is the encryption.

The encryption doesn't prevent you from making a copy of the (still encrypted) content of the DVD on a flash drive. It only prevents you from playing the video from that copy, since it would need to be decrypted first. The only official, licensed systems that can decrypt the DVD content for playback will not accept encrypted input from a flash drive, only from commercial DVDs, so having a bit-for-bit copy of an encrypted DVD on a flash drive doesn't help. Still, CSS would be more accurately classified as protection against unauthorized *playback* rather than unauthorized *copying*.

DVD anti-copying measures

Posted Nov 15, 2020 17:45 UTC (Sun) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link] (1 responses)

I think I could make a case that the content protected by copyright is the movie, not the bits. A copy of encrypted bits that can't be played is not a copy of a movie, so encryption is a device that prevents copying.

Sometimes engineers, with their view inside the machine, have a rather different perspective on copyright law than authors and copiers.

DVD anti-copying measures

Posted Nov 15, 2020 18:25 UTC (Sun) by geert (subscriber, #98403) [Link]

So my dm-crypted hard drive does not contain any movies, as the RIA* cannot play them?
Well played ;-)

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 16:26 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (4 responses)

The RIAA has no jurisdiction over copyright law. And it doesn't apply here either (hint - the second A stands for America - a *foreign* country).

Until Parliament legally sanctioned copying that sort of stuff for personal purposes, it was illegal. "fair use" is something that doesn't exist in Berne, so that was no use ...

Cheers,
Wol

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 17:22 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (3 responses)

True, laws differ across jurisdictions. This is about an American law (DMCA) and American companies/associations (RIAA, Google/Youtube, Microsoft/Github).

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 17:29 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

That may be true. But the OP I was replying to said copyright law was not about copying ... ??? (And I did quote him, didn't I?)

And I did say *I* couldn't copy a CD ... :-)

The "unread comments" page does rather hide context ... :-(

Cheers,
Wol

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 21:01 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> The "unread comments" page does rather hide context ... :-(

There is an option (which I use) to include the parent comment of any new comment thread for at least some context.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 19, 2020 0:57 UTC (Thu) by dannyobrien (subscriber, #25583) [Link]

Though note that DMCA 1201-like provisions exist in most countries now: see our blog post "the Github youtube-dl takedown isn't just a problem of American law".

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 22:16 UTC (Thu) by ldearquer (guest, #137451) [Link] (7 responses)

> The DMCA criminalizes this if you are circumventing access controls

OK, that explains a lot to an ignorant folk like myself.

Does it mean, in US, it is not legal to - just saying - record with a camera whatever is being played on your own TV set, on your own home, through your paid subscription or whatever, to keep a copy for yourself?

To me it sounds like forbidding nose picking :)

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 22:55 UTC (Thu) by himi (subscriber, #340) [Link] (3 responses)

There are lots of things you can get away with if no one realises you're doing them, and there are things you can get away with if no one cares because it has no impact on the rest of the world. The specific provisions of the DMCA (and the conventions that they implement) are targeted at cases where the vendor has tried to stop you from doing things via some technical mechanism, but you've worked around that restraint - it gives the technical mechanism implemented by the vendor the force of law, even if no one ever knows that you're doing it, let alone it having an impact on the rest of the world. You still have the protection of obscurity - if no one ever knows you did it they can't do anything about it. But if the technical mechanism you're circumventing includes a phone-home provision then you're screwed even then.

As the experience with CSS on DVDs demonstrates, it doesn't even have to be an effective mechanism, and it doesn't have to give any consideration to other parts of copyright law which might make it entirely legal to work around the mechanism - basically, they can take you to court and demand large sums of money (based on penalties intended to deter commercial pirates), and you then have to make a positive case to justify your particular personal use case.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 13, 2020 2:56 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

It's not quite as simple. RIAA can sue individuals who break CSS to watch DVDs. But it's likely to be tossed out with prejudice, since RIAA won't be able to show any damages.

What they _can_ do is suing the software publisher that created the tools to work around CSS.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 15, 2020 23:23 UTC (Sun) by himi (subscriber, #340) [Link] (1 responses)

There were statutory damage rules involved somewhere that meant you could be liable for fines even if there was no evidence of actual harm - I can't recall if that was associated with the direct infringement or with contributory infringement, but it was definitely used to target people who were just seeding torrents, and I'm pretty sure there were cases early on where people had to invoke the first sale defence to avoid liability for breaking some of the dumb-arse CD copy protection schemes that existed. But one of the things that came out of the early court hearings on this stuff was case law that imposed more reasonable restrictions on liabilities if there was no commercial motive behind the infringement, which put a stop to a lot of the ridiculous behaviour by the record companies.

The current state of the law is quite significantly different to what it was back in the early 2000s, not because of amendments to the written law, but due to the build up of case law and precedent.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 16, 2020 8:39 UTC (Mon) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

The key change AFAICT (and I'm not a lawyer, nor based in the USA, so take this with a pinch of salt) is that case law has established that you need to show that damage exists before you can choose between actual damages and statutory damages. Statutory damages exist in US law to cover the case where the actual damages are hard to establish (pirates don't keep the greatest records), and it was a stretch to have them cover cases where no actual damages existed.

Copyright law - making copies for personal use

Posted Nov 15, 2020 5:05 UTC (Sun) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link] (2 responses)

No, you cannot legally make a copy of a TV broadcast under US copyright law, even for personal use.

The "fair use" exception for making copies for personal use is for making an additional copy of something of which you already own a copy. It doesn't cover creating a copy from a public performance. (It wouldn't cover making a copy of a friend's DVD for your own personal use either).

A famous court case shortly after the invention of the home video recorder tested the limits of that restriction and resulted in a ruling that you can't record a TV program even if you're just going to watch it once the next day and then delete the copy.

Copyright law - making copies for personal use

Posted Nov 15, 2020 5:48 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

> No, you cannot legally make a copy of a TV broadcast under US copyright law, even for personal use.
You absolutely can. Time-shifting was ruled legal by the SCOTUS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_shifting#History_in_th...

Copyright law - making copies for personal use

Posted Nov 15, 2020 17:32 UTC (Sun) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

I stand corrected, and thank you for the correction.

You know, I read that Wikipedia article just before posting and between then and when I hit publish, I forgot the result of the case.

Good thing it does not disturb my main point, since the only reason that case went to the Supreme Court is that recording TV broadcasts generally isn't allowed.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 12, 2020 22:07 UTC (Thu) by ldearquer (guest, #137451) [Link] (8 responses)

If the law incorporates an exception for private copies, it is pretty much all about redistributing.
Granted this exception may not be common across jurisdictions.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 13, 2020 0:20 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (7 responses)

What do you mean by "redistributing". The exception in English law says you can have copies AS LONG AS YOU ALSO HAVE THE ORIGINAL.

To me, "redistribution" means giving copies to friends etc. They don't have the original (I do), so those copies are illegal!

If I have both the original and the copies (the only legal possibility), then that's not redistribution! And if I give the original away, I have to destroy the copies as they are no longer legal.

Cheers,
Wol

Copyright law

Posted Nov 13, 2020 11:56 UTC (Fri) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (3 responses)

To me, "redistribution" means giving copies to friends etc. They don't have the original (I do), so those copies are illegal!

Here in Germany we get to give an (unspecified) limited number of copies of music CDs we own to friends and family (not random strangers). In theory there's a surcharge on CD-ROM burners and blanks that is distributed to the artists, composers, music publishers etc. as compensation.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 13, 2020 12:54 UTC (Fri) by anton (subscriber, #25547) [Link] (2 responses)

The surcharge is reality, and we also pay it on hard disks, printers and probably many other things. And your GEMA and our AKM gets the money (based on the theory that they represent all the authors, artists, etc.) and distributes some of it to its members.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 13, 2020 14:48 UTC (Fri) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (1 responses)

AFAIR the GEMA surcharge on CD-ROM media applied to “audio-quality” CD-ROM blanks (which are otherwise identical to standard CD-ROM blanks). I don't think anyone uses these any longer.

Historically, CD-ROM blanks were not exclusively used for copyrighted music – when the idea was new, CD-ROMs were popular as backup media, for sharing family photographs with relatives or sending them off to be printed, etc., and people reasonably objected to having to pay GEMA for the privilege of storing their own stuff on their own CD-ROM blanks.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 13, 2020 17:07 UTC (Fri) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link]

I'm not German, but this Wikipedia article lists surcharges on DVD media, external hard drives, MP3 players, PCs, Mobile phones, set-top boxes, scanners and printers, etc.

This is a bureaucratic system, and unfair to users which don't use these products for storing copyrighted material. The system also doesn't make sense with dwindling prices per gigabyte on external media. If the charge is ~2 cents per gigabyte for CD-R, then, for the same price per byte, it ought to be 200 € for a 10 TB hard drive. How about 20000 € for some future 1 PB media? Should cloud storage also be affected?

The same system was also used in Finland until the end of 2014, at which point it was abandoned completely.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 13, 2020 14:18 UTC (Fri) by ldearquer (guest, #137451) [Link] (2 responses)

> What do you mean by "redistributing". The exception in English law says you can have copies AS LONG AS YOU ALSO HAVE THE ORIGINAL.

That was my whole point. I see I failed to word it properly :)

I was saying, I always thought the copyright law is all about distributing copies. Once you have an original, you can *not* make copies and distribute them. But you can make (private) copies and keep them for yourself (for your car, etc).

So, you can make copies, but not distribute them

So I thought youtube-dl use was OK as long as I don't make copies and distribute them. Because I was not aware of further restrictions imposed by DCMA.

Copyright law

Posted Nov 13, 2020 19:04 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

It's not "further restrictions imposed by the DMCA". The default position of copyright law is you cannot make any copies full stop. Not for personal use. Not for backups. Not even temporary copies required to run programs.

That's why things like software licences appeared - so people could legally run their programs. And all the exemptions about personal copies.

The DMCA was an attempt to criminalise what was already illegal - making unauthorised copies of commercial DVDs. (Made all the more complicated by the American concept of "fair use" and people saying "making backups is fair use".)

Cheers,
Wol

Copyright law

Posted Nov 13, 2020 22:37 UTC (Fri) by ldearquer (guest, #137451) [Link]

> I was saying, I always thought the copyright law is all about distributing copies. Once you have an original, you can *not* > make copies and distribute them. But you can make (private) copies and keep them for yourself (for your car, etc).

s/copyright law/status quo of copyright law plus applicable private copies exeptions (existent in most jurisdictions)/

Copyright law

Posted Nov 15, 2020 15:32 UTC (Sun) by ceplm (subscriber, #41334) [Link]

> So what if I use program Z or Y to store it locally, play it backwards, invert the color or whatever I want, as long as I don't redistribute it?

You get sued as long as RIAA decides they don’t like you. And who has more money to pay lawyers, you or RIAA?

The RIAA, GitHub, and youtube-dl

Posted Nov 12, 2020 10:29 UTC (Thu) by jnareb (subscriber, #46500) [Link]

What is strange various articles in mainstream news sites write that RIAA said that the *documentation* of youtube-dl shows examples of infringing use how to download copyrighted works that are streaming-only... but from what I have skimmed the docs it is simply not true, and this article clarifies that it was *test code* that downloads said works, but it is only first 10 seconds.


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