Handling attacks on a community
A recent message to the debian-project mailing list by Debian project leader (DPL) Sam Hartman is about a proposal to moderate the mailing list. There have been repeated attacks on various project members and the distribution itself posted to the list over the last few years, many from sock-puppet, throwaway email accounts, which spawned a recent discussion on the debian-private mailing list; Hartman was summarizing that discussion for those who are not on the private list. But the problems on debian-project (and other Debian public lists) are kind of just the tip of the iceberg; there is an ongoing, persistent effort to roil the distribution and its community.
The discussion on debian-private happened while Hartman was taking a
vacation; his summary was partly from catching up with his email and also
a continuation of the consensus building work he
has done during his DPL term. The debian-private discussion led to a bug
report that asked for debian-project to become a moderated list
"for the time being
", which is where Hartman suggested the
technical discussion on how to do the moderation should go. In parallel with the private
discussion, there was also a thread
on the project list about how distributed moderation of a mailing list
might work. The idea is that multiple moderators could help filter out
messages from new subscribers to the list.
Moderating a mailing list can be controversial in free-software communities, but Hartman's summary and the thread on how to actually go about doing it indicate that there is a fairly strong consensus that the problems need to be addressed. As he put it:
Moderation of problematic lists was by far the best supported option for responding. Many people spoke in favor. Many people volunteered to help. I am not aware of anyone who favored any technical choice over moderation.
It is not hard to find examples of the kinds of messages that are being targeted (e.g. here, here, here, and here for fairly recent examples). It is also clear that many participants on the mailing list have concluded who is behind at least some of the anonymous/pseudonymous attacks: Daniel Pocock. In fact, Pocock was the subject of a different message from Hartman on debian-project; while he did not directly connect the dots between the messages and his action expelling Pocock from the Debian project entirely, it is hard not to come to the conclusion that the two are related.
Hartman's message was meant to explain why he felt his action as DPL was
reasonable under the Debian Constitution but
more detail on the expulsion was provided in Hartman's reply
to an "intent to package" (ITP) bug
filed by Pocock. Hartman noted that normally the project "avoids
discussing expulsions in public
", but that Pocock's use of the term
"Debian Developer" and attempts to act as one after having that status
revoked caused the project to make an exception. Hartman also described
the expulsion in some detail:
It is also hard not to connect the dots between the moderation effort, expulsion, and Hartman's comments in his announcement that he would not be seeking a second consecutive term as DPL. That message, which is well worth reading in its entirety, is a sober reflection on how his term has matched up with his campaign platform. It is a balanced look at his successes and failures as DPL. Tucked into the end of that message, though, is a cautionary tale for his successor.
[...] Whoever steps forward as DPL is going to need to spend some significant energy continuing to defend our community. You won't be alone. There are a number of people who are spending significant energy on this problem inside Debian and in the greater Free Software community. But I won't lie: it is a real emotional drag.
[...] My overall reaction to this situation is disappointment and horror thinking about how much damage a single motivated person can do to a community.
The damage wrought to the community is really the crux of the matter. Projects and their communities do have the right, and, some would say, the responsibility, to determine who is allowed to be a part of their community. Regardless of the merit of the accusations, a community can conclude that someone has stepped over the line and can no longer be associated with it. Freedom of association cuts both ways.
It is also worth noting that, so far at least, no one has thrown their hat into the ring to run for DPL. The call for nominations went out on March 7 and the nomination period ends March 14. If the current situation persists, the nomination period may need to be extended, as it was last year. Hartman's warning may be giving potential candidates pause.
Debian is not the only organization to have complained about Pocock's behavior. In May 2019, the list of subscribers to Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE) mailing lists was obtained and used inappropriately, according to FSFE President Matthias Kirschner:
Said third-party is identified as "Daniel Pocock and/or Ready Technology (UK)
Limited
", but the message makes it clear that the FSFE believes that
Pocock was, at a minimum,
involved in this.
We have gathered enough evidence to be confident that these are the events that transpired, and also to identify the parties involved in the breach. Accordingly, we have banned all relevant email addresses from the FSFE web infrastructure.
More background, at least from the FSFE side, can be found in a lengthy
message
from General Assembly
member Florian Snow. There may well be legitimate concerns that Pocock has
with the FSFE organizational structure, as noted
in this message, for example, but his tactics are seemingly not welcome in
that community. As Michael Kesper put
it in response to a message
from Pocock, where he pointedly does not deny the list-subscription
manipulation: "We as a community want to communicate with respect to
each other as otherwise
no community can survive.
"
The situation is undoubtedly messy, but it is the case that several organizations have determined that the behavior is not something they want in their communities. Fedora also removed Pocock's blog from its Planet Fedora blog aggregator due to Code of Conduct violations. Clearly Pocock believes he is being unfairly treated by these projects, which is not surprising, but is also not really germane to the question at hand. Communities must set their own standards and individuals need to either stay within the bounds—or go elsewhere. Continuing to engage, or attack, communities that have, wrongly or rightly, excluded you is as clearly wrong as it is counterproductive. On the flipside, communities must try to ensure that they are even-handed and reasonable; sometimes reputations and even employment can be seriously affected by actions of this sort.
Dissent within a community is to be expected and should be welcomed—as long as the manner of dissenting stays within the community bounds. Opinions and complaints, even if they are not shared widely, are typically not "censored" or otherwise hindered so long as they are respectfully presented. Personal attacks, veiled threats, innuendo, and the like, however, are generally seen as "not respectful" even in a community as notoriously fractious as Debian. Dissent is important, but so is community. There is a balance to be struck and it is up to the community to do so for itself.
Posted Mar 11, 2020 22:08 UTC (Wed)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted Mar 11, 2020 22:37 UTC (Wed)
by hartmans (subscriber, #135969)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Mar 12, 2020 19:27 UTC (Thu)
by rahvin (guest, #16953)
[Link] (3 responses)
From my point of view, because of abuse like this there aren't that many public lists that don't moderate new members for a while to verify they aren't sock puppet accouts or bots. This type of moderation is perfectly reasonable.
Posted Mar 17, 2020 19:35 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 17, 2020 20:39 UTC (Tue)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link] (1 responses)
It shouldn't be too hard to block what he's doing in this case; he's using a different email address and only forging the screen name. In the long run, though, blocking spoofing might require either signed email or a move to something other than email that would let Debian vet the poster's ID better than a spoofable email address.
Posted Mar 23, 2020 13:11 UTC (Mon)
by gray_-_wolf (subscriber, #131074)
[Link]
which should be sane default anyway...
Posted Mar 12, 2020 23:20 UTC (Thu)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link]
I hope I didn't sound critical of Debian for this most recent action. The stuff he's described as doing here is way beyond what any organization should have to tolerate. Even if he started from a legitimate gripe, he's gone far beyond acceptable means of getting redress.
Posted Mar 13, 2020 23:03 UTC (Fri)
by Tov (subscriber, #61080)
[Link]
Posted Mar 12, 2020 7:17 UTC (Thu)
by aj@azure.humbug.org.au (guest, #4285)
[Link] (2 responses)
I think https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00018.... is the least shrill summary from Daniel's side. I've never seen an explanation from Debian's side any more detailed than Sam's "some things happened"; this case was also the first time the Debian Account Managers expelled/suspended a developer without immediately notifying other developers via -private (unless you count https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/09/msg00029.... ), and to the best of my knowledge the reasoning/evidence has still never been provided, which seems like a spectacularly bad sign to me.
There's a few "anonymous" posts on debian.community that give more detail, presumably from Daniel's side, https://debian.community/google-influence-free-open-sourc... seems to have more background than I've seen elsewhere; there was also the "mollamby" post to -project mid last year suggested some sort of summer-of-code related conflict of interest; but there wasn't any public response from those accused, and the accusation was then scrubbed from the -project archives. https://debian.community/assets/mollamby.pdf looks like an accurate snapshot of the post though.
My guess from all that is that Chris Lamb (the Debian project leader at the time) was irritated with Daniel due to reimbursement hassles, then there was some scandal in GSoC involving a relationship between a student and either a mentor or admin; so I'm guessing it was Daniel (who was both an admin and a mentor), and all the secrecy is to protect the privacy of the student involved. Then that put a question mark over the $17k in GSoC funding or the validity of all the Debian students' participation in GSoC, and maybe it all got resolved by brute force by temporarily kicking Daniel out of Debian entirely? Meanwhile there was some conflict with the FSFE where Daniel had been elected Fellowship representative or something and took that as meaning his job was to hold the board accountable to the members, which involved irritating either many of the same people making it hard for Daniel in Debian, or at least friends of the same people? And it seems Daniel's father died during all of this. So I assume Daniel feels hard done by given he was trying to do his best and having been treated unprecedentedly harshly while at the same time going through a personal tragedy. That's all wild speculation though; I haven't seen anything in public or private that says any of the above. Fortunately Debian's commitment that "We won't hide problems" only refers to bug reports.
Posted Mar 12, 2020 10:19 UTC (Thu)
by rodgerd (guest, #58896)
[Link] (1 responses)
I fail to understand why you think "making shit up out of whole cloth" is adding any value.
Posted Mar 12, 2020 11:56 UTC (Thu)
by jwilk (subscriber, #63328)
[Link]
Posted Mar 11, 2020 23:27 UTC (Wed)
by gwolf (subscriber, #14632)
[Link]
Posted Mar 12, 2020 1:41 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (8 responses)
Obtaining the list of FSFE subscribers was almost certainly criminal under European Law. Unsubscribing them from the mailing lists is pretty certainly criminal too.
Of course, seeing as I understand he is an Australian in Australia, pressing said criminal charges is likely to be difficult, but he might get a nasty shock if someone tried.
Cheers,
Posted Mar 12, 2020 3:18 UTC (Thu)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Mar 30, 2020 4:45 UTC (Mon)
by elvis_ (guest, #63935)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 31, 2020 4:46 UTC (Tue)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
Posted Mar 12, 2020 14:28 UTC (Thu)
by dd9jn (✭ supporter ✭, #4459)
[Link] (1 responses)
Werner Koch
Posted Mar 12, 2020 17:08 UTC (Thu)
by ber (subscriber, #2142)
[Link]
At around that time, he [Daniel] requested a mailing to be sent to all Supporters. At the time, we had a pretty informal policy of how those got sent out and even though we felt his mailing was inflammatory, we sent it out unchanged. We installed a more formal policy for mailings afterwards which applies to everyone and he called that censorship.
So Daniel's mail went out as he wanted it.
And later FSFE crafted an improved policy more matching the expectations and consent supporters
had been giving FSFE to contact them.
The event of someone gathering and abusing
subscriber email addresses of FSFE's public mailing lists was much later (as far as I remember)
and not directly connected.
Regards,
Posted Mar 12, 2020 19:48 UTC (Thu)
by rahvin (guest, #16953)
[Link] (1 responses)
In addition, the actions of impersonating people, and several of the other actions listed could probably fall under Australia's defamation laws which IIRC aren't that different than the UK's if someone wanted to go after him Civilly.
As always in these situations the burden is on the harassed because the internet makes harassment a million times easier.
Posted Mar 12, 2020 20:50 UTC (Thu)
by amacater (subscriber, #790)
[Link]
As ever, I could be very wrong :)
Posted Mar 12, 2020 1:53 UTC (Thu)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 13, 2020 17:18 UTC (Fri)
by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330)
[Link]
Posted Mar 13, 2020 22:26 UTC (Fri)
by rweikusat2 (subscriber, #117920)
[Link] (24 responses)
Posted Mar 14, 2020 14:15 UTC (Sat)
by zenaan (guest, #3778)
[Link] (23 responses)
Many folks today appear to be what is colloquially termed "snowflakes" - so emotionally fragile that even giving a (any, whatsoever) trigger warning, is considered itself "triggering" and therefore subject to CoC censorship, etc., see e.g. https://reason.com/2018/07/29/triggered-by-trigger-warnings/
This is depressing to see - from Linus Torvalds and the Linux Foundation, to Git in recent times, to Richard Stallman (RMS), founder of the Free Software Foundation (USA) being "resigned" by the so-called "FSF community", and of course Debian and most other FLOSS "communities".
It is true - holding strictly to certain principles such as freedom of speech (modulo "that which is not actually unlawful"), is not easy, likely not possible, for a "community" that wants to be maximally inclusive of humans with fragile egos and/or fragile emotional natures).
So as humans we are different, with different needs and different wants. "Snowflakes" want momma to make all the bad words disappear. Staunch free speech upholders want rigorous and robust discussions, with the right to, at least sometimes, offend the "wilting flower" types.
These two types of communities are to some degree not compatible.
Either bend the knee as Linus Torvalds has done, and to some extent RMS, or advocate for your preferred environment, or create your preferred environment - but to attack a so called "community" which has, by the authority of those in authority in that community, expelled you from that community, is probably a fruitless and counter productive exercise.
Embrace your truth, and find others of like spirit/temperament, and create that which you are moved to create.
Posted Mar 14, 2020 16:15 UTC (Sat)
by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784)
[Link]
Posted Mar 14, 2020 17:43 UTC (Sat)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (18 responses)
Posted Mar 15, 2020 1:54 UTC (Sun)
by zenaan (guest, #3778)
[Link] (17 responses)
Not what I said, but meh...
So is it fair to assume then that you agree with all the resignations (RMS), knee-bending (Torvalds), and turmoil (openSUSE and many others)?
It is of course your right to agree with such treatment of various founders, as we have witnessed a fair bit of in recent times. Good lessons for future founders (to enshrine their "broflake" power CoCs before the snowflakes have a chance to usurp power and damage the founders).
Long term, I believe this is a functional parting of the ways between humans with different preferred ways of being in this world.
The CoC for those of robust temperament, is a different CoC to those of snowflake temperament.
Snowflakes are entitled to their CoC, "broflakes" and those who prefer more freedom in their communication environment, are entitled to their CoC - although I have yet to see a broflake CoC in writing :)
In the mean time we continue in this time of turmoil where unspoken expectations of some, in some cases many, have begun to be put first into CoCs and then into force, and this clash of expectations and turmoil is made public. Over, and over, again.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the "broflakes", those of robust emotional temperament, though evidently a minority, are inherently pioneers, willing and able to blaze new trails which few others see or would dare, until the land is cleared and first settlements built.
Most are settlers or homies.
'Tis the way of things.
Posted Mar 15, 2020 4:25 UTC (Sun)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
See you later, then...
Posted Mar 15, 2020 5:58 UTC (Sun)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Mar 15, 2020 11:25 UTC (Sun)
by zenaan (guest, #3778)
[Link] (5 responses)
> Absolutely. People should learn to behave like decent human beings, and not like entitled brats.
In other words:
Cyberax: "Richard Matthew Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation (FSF) and staunch catalyst, visionary, upholder and all around grandfather for the entire FLOSS/Libre movement for ~30 years now, behaved or spoke, in my ever so high opinion, "like an entitled brat," and so therefore (I say) it is a great thing that he was "resigned" from his FSF."
So ... speaking of "entitled brats" ...
["Mummy told me I am fully entitled to be free from all confronting words by anyone forever." - You know, that's not a bad definition of "snowflake", not bad at all ... we shall be making use of that :D]
Posted Mar 15, 2020 15:33 UTC (Sun)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (4 responses)
Thank you.
Posted Mar 16, 2020 1:12 UTC (Mon)
by mebrown (subscriber, #7960)
[Link]
Posted Mar 16, 2020 11:13 UTC (Mon)
by beagnach (guest, #32987)
[Link] (1 responses)
Thanks
Seems to be a rather higher incidence of trolling in the last week or two... what's with that?
Posted Mar 19, 2020 3:25 UTC (Thu)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
Posted Mar 30, 2020 4:54 UTC (Mon)
by elvis_ (guest, #63935)
[Link]
Posted Mar 16, 2020 4:00 UTC (Mon)
by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 16, 2020 5:57 UTC (Mon)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
But it breaks down in large projects when a broflake decides that somebody is oppressing them.
Posted Mar 16, 2020 13:41 UTC (Mon)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 17, 2020 2:09 UTC (Tue)
by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
[Link]
Posted Mar 17, 2020 11:12 UTC (Tue)
by jond (subscriber, #37669)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Mar 19, 2020 3:28 UTC (Thu)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 19, 2020 20:50 UTC (Thu)
by andrejp (guest, #47396)
[Link] (2 responses)
On topic though, having admittedly read only a little bit of the presented material, I do anyway find the so called "offender" articulate, intelligent, capable and disposed to reason and arguments. People don't go to such extreme lengths and cause so much noise for nothing, much less out of some childish malice. Usually it's because some deeply held and fundamental value has been profoundly violated. To me it doesn't seem like a bit of ego was bruised. It seems more like a crusade.
Having also read some of the related material outlined (such as the mentioned blog post https://www.preining.info/blog/2018/09/sharp-did-it-again/), I can't say I disagree with his position either. Much of the "group" response comes across as passive aggressive at best, glossing over the issues presented and ignoring the arguments, and after failing at that, attempting to silence and ban the dissenters presenting uncomfortable opinions. Which is exactly the argument that the so called "offender" seems to present. And which, at least to me, seems like it extracted exactly the kind of response the group got from this individual. :)
Posted Mar 20, 2020 8:29 UTC (Fri)
by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784)
[Link]
My leisure reading includes the search results returned by canlii.ca for the single search term "vexatious", which yields a fascinating selection of material (which is occasionally quite unpleasant to read; those of a sensitive disposition might wish to avoid reading the cases where individual parties are referred to by initials instead of a surname).
Observing this fine gentleman reminds me of the former schoolteacher who, having been unsuccessful in pursuing his labour dispute in the province where his former employer is situated and he was living at the time of the matter under dispute, and then in the Federal courts, has attempted to relitigate the matter not only in the province he now inhabits, but in most of the others, many or even all of which he has never inhabited (and, obviously, his former employer has no presence in).
Posted Mar 21, 2020 0:11 UTC (Sat)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
You have a lot more faith left in humanity than I do. The joe-jobbing was where it crossed the line for me.
Posted Mar 17, 2020 12:13 UTC (Tue)
by dvdeug (guest, #10998)
[Link]
Which is the problem with the idea of "snowflakes". People have always been "so emotionally fragile"; if you don't want to talk about gay panic, we could talk about how people freaked out about everything vaguely Twin Towers related after 9/11, including a Starbucks ad with two drinks, a dragonfly, and the logo "Collapse into cool". There's a serious discussion here, but that can't start so long as people are acting like "snowflakes" are something new, nor if you use a term also used by people who would criminalize flag burning and blasphemy.
> "Snowflakes" want momma to make all the bad words disappear. Staunch free speech upholders want rigorous and robust discussions, with the right to, at least sometimes, offend the "wilting flower" types.
Rigorous and robust discussion doesn't involve saying things like "Snowflakes want momma to make all the bad words disappear". It involves understanding the positions of other people and treating them seriously. In my experiences, rigorous and robust discussions often get derailed by free speech, and having a code of conduct can keep every discussion from disintegrating into an argument about someone's bête noire or some dead horse.
And no, many free speech upholders simply want to shitpost and cause offense and disruption, or push their own goals with no concern about anyone else.
Posted Mar 17, 2020 19:41 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
So not wanting people's names to be used in forged, widely-distributed public emails that claim you said something that you did not in fact say and that you may well disagree with is acceptable behaviour to you?!
Posted Mar 17, 2020 19:42 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Mar 14, 2020 12:48 UTC (Sat)
by Jookia (guest, #128586)
[Link] (1 responses)
Eventually I figured it out, and told him to stop spamming me with unwanted email whenever he'd send off an email disguised as a genuine mailing list email. I didn't get a reply the first few times, so I eventually sent an email to his alternate email list he kept advertising to bring attention to this behavior, but surprisingly this prompted him to remove me from his mass unsolicited mail script with a weak excuse of it using public information and that anybody could do what he did.
Strangely enough my email didn't make it through to his anti-censorship mailing list, I wonder why?
Posted Mar 17, 2020 12:35 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Cheers,
Posted Mar 15, 2020 11:15 UTC (Sun)
by mvdwege (guest, #113583)
[Link] (4 responses)
At a certain point you just have to say: "Don't like systemd? Move to Devuan"; "Harassing asshole? Get out". That it took until Daniel's meltdown for Sam to finally lose his patience has not helped detoxifying the community.
Posted Mar 16, 2020 11:04 UTC (Mon)
by timrichardson (subscriber, #72836)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 17, 2020 15:42 UTC (Tue)
by mvdwege (guest, #113583)
[Link]
Unfortunately, the project has recently had a few very toxic episodes where I think the better solution would be to just expel the members who keep stoking the flames, regarding of past contributions. The way they keep people away is, I think, a bigger loss than the potential contributions of less abrasive replacements.
This of course is not the DPL's responsibility under the constitution, unless it gets so bad it falls under "3. Make any decision which requires urgent action." But Sam did use his power under "9. Lead discussions amongst Developers."[1] to quench toxic threads on the mailing lists, and in my personal opinion too many times waited 2 or 3 mails too long.
[1] I assume that is the article Sam used to declare threads closed, from my reading of the constitution.
Posted Mar 16, 2020 16:39 UTC (Mon)
by hartmans (subscriber, #135969)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 17, 2020 15:32 UTC (Tue)
by mvdwege (guest, #113583)
[Link]
That difference in personality also means that sometimes I thought when a discussion was exploding "I wish Sam was a little more decisive". You do eventually come to the conclusion that consensus is impossible, and then you are decisive. I just think that you left it a few iterations of discussion too long on occasion.
And yes, I picked the recent flare-up of systemd as an example, because on debian-devel and debian-project you were focusing more on process issues and less on keeping the Devuan supporters in line, IMO. I could have read that wrong, that's inherent in non-FtF communication. In that case I apologise.
Posted Mar 18, 2020 9:30 UTC (Wed)
by yoe (guest, #25743)
[Link] (5 responses)
https://debian.community/debian-community-news-is-indepen...
If you ever run into him, run for the hills. Don't pause to wait and see what happens.
Posted Mar 19, 2020 3:41 UTC (Thu)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
Clearly he's trying to make the history books like the previous worst troll, that one from OpenOffice I can't remember the name of any more. ;-)
Posted Mar 19, 2020 21:58 UTC (Thu)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Mar 20, 2020 0:55 UTC (Fri)
by karkhaz (subscriber, #99844)
[Link]
It was posted on https://debian.community. But I found another copy of it on a site I hadn't seen before, https://uncensored.debian.community [1]. That site's design looks confusingly similar to Debian's official web pages. It aggregates real blog posts by Debian project members, interspersed with "debian community news" posts, without any distinction. The "community news" post that you mentioned was posted immediately after the aggregated post from bits.d.o.
The sheer volume and extent of this person's effort is baffling. Best wishes to everybody affected.
[0] https://bits.debian.org/2020/03/official-communication-ch...
Posted Mar 20, 2020 22:04 UTC (Fri)
by martin.langhoff (guest, #61417)
[Link] (1 responses)
Oh man, got to let go of it.
Posted Mar 22, 2020 13:15 UTC (Sun)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
Unfortunately, he seems constitutionally incapable of leaving it at that, projecting onto everyone else the behaviour he's aptly escalating himself.
Is there any kind of information about what Daniel Pocock's beef with Debian and FSFE is? Everyone seems to be extremely vague about it as if we're all supposed to know who this guy is, but it might be nice to have some catch-up material for those of us who haven't been following as closely.
Handling attacks on a community
Daniel Pocock and Debian
At another level, back in 2018, some things happened while Daniel was representing Debian that the DPL and account managers (and others) were unhappy about.. Debian asked Daniel to take a six-month break and not to represent Debian (and thus not to be a developer) during that time.
Instead of taking some time away from Debian, Daniel escalated the situation, spammed a list of most project members accusing various people of misconduct, and things went from there, eventually ending up with my action Sunday.
Daniel Pocock and Debian
Daniel Pocock and Debian
Daniel Pocock and Debian
Daniel Pocock and Debian
Daniel Pocock and Debian
Daniel Pocock and Debian
FWIW, I would like to thank you for all your effort. Being a long-time Debian user (directly and indirectly), I am deeply grateful for the work of awesome and levelheaded people like you. Being a head-shaking spectator to all the commotion, I admire your patience and I am sorry for the emotional stress you have to endure for being at the forefront of the project.
Thanks and all the best wishes!
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
I want to make explicit my full support (and admiration to the energy invested in this issue) to Sam Hartman, as well as to other people who have been harassed and abused by Pocock. The Debian community did all it could not to "feed the troll", to contact Pocock privately and in friendlier terms, to mediate... To no avail.
I can even say, I believe we are colectively beffudled as to *what* Pocock is trying to achieve. It is more than clear that it is *impossible* for him to regain Debian Developer status. He burned all possible bridges. Why does he keep investing energy in harassing the project? I don't know.
But, at this point, I don't particularly care anymore. I only want him to stop.
Criminal Behaviour
Wol
Criminal Behaviour
Criminal Behaviour
Criminal Behaviour
Criminal Behaviour
To cite from Florian's email (linked above in the article):
Access to supporter database in FSFE
Bernhard Reiter (FSFE GA member and co-founder)
Criminal Behaviour
Criminal Behaviour
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Just like you crying here, begging for CoCs to disappear? What a broflake.
Handling attacks on a community
> Just like you crying here, begging for CoCs to disappear? What a broflake.
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Absolutely. People should learn to behave like decent human beings, and not like entitled brats.
Handling attacks on a community
Please make use of it elsewhere; we really do not need more trolling here.
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
I hate to have to say this but ... name-calling and such aren't really better just because $WE do it, for whatever value of $WE. Let's try to avoid that, please?
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
>
> Many folks today appear to be what is colloquially termed "snowflakes"
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Sounds like a blatant GDPR violation
Wol
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
It would arguably be more disappointing if he wasn't faithful to his manifesto, which is kind of a social contract.
Handling attacks on a community
When Consensus is Appropriate
Consensus was not possible there, and it was obvious to me by the time I was elected that was true.
Similarly, I have never tried to engage with Daniel Pocock in a consensus discussion while I was DPL.
Why didn't I fully ban Daniel from the project earlier? Honestly, by the time I became DPL, I thought that had effectively been done.
I didn't consider that he'd use the bug tracking system in that way until he did.
Why didn't we make a public statement about Daniel earlier?
For a while, we weren't sure it was necessary. Especially during the first part of my term, I was deferring to others.
Later, though, we weren't quite sure how to do it. But then the time for immediate action was at hand and I made that statement because it was necessary.
In no point was this about building a consensus with Daniel.
Some parts of Debian's response did involve waiting for consensus to emerge within teams responsible for handling harassment. And some decisions aren't entirely the DPL's to make and so I waited on others to come to their decisions.
Consensus is a valuable tool, but I assure you it is not always the right answer.
When Consensus is Appropriate
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
[1] https://uncensored.debian.community/#https://debian.commu...
Handling attacks on a community
Handling attacks on a community
