The great leap backward
In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake". In that context, it is perhaps easy to understand why the discussion around the version number for the next major openSUSE Leap release has gone on for hundreds of sometimes vitriolic messages. While this change is controversial, the openSUSE board hopes that it will lead to more rational versioning in the long term — but the world has a way of interfering with such plans.
OpenSUSE Leap is an interesting hybrid distribution; its core packages come from the slow-and-stable SUSE Linux Enterprise (SLE) release, but those packages are replaced or supplemented by much newer software where desired. The current (and only) openSUSE Leap release was originally based on SLE 12 and openSUSE 13.1. The project had an immediate problem in that it needed to come up with a version number for this new distribution; in the end, it did what any of us would have done and chose 42. The current release is openSUSE Leap 42.2.
Eventually even an enterprise distribution gets around to a new major release; that is expected to happen with SLE sometime in 2018. A new SLE release will have a new version number, of course. The working expectation on the openSUSE side was that the next SLE would be SLE 13, and that openSUSE leap would, continuing with the SLE+30 formula, release openSUSE Leap 43 based on that release.
But, as openSUSE board chair Richard Brown recently noted, plans can change. In its wisdom, SUSE management decided that the next SLE release would not be SLE 13; it seems that SLE 15 has greater market appeal. The reasons behind the decision have not escaped the smoke-filled room in which it was made, but it has been speculated that the purpose was to avoid the number 13, which is seen as being unlucky in many parts. Similarly, 14 contains a 4, an ill-starred number in parts of Asia, so it was out of the running. 15, being a triangular, hexagonal, and pentatope number (among other things), was the obvious choice.
Parents in the US, who often acquire much gray hair at the prospect of their children getting driving permits at the age of 15, may well not consider that number to be especially auspicious either. It seems that Europe-based SUSE is less concerned about that particular fear, unreasonable as that may seem.
Naturally, using 43 as the version number for the next openSUSE Leap release is now entirely out of the question; there is no point in even talking about it. So the openSUSE board retired to its rather smaller smoke-filled room to find a solution to this existential problem. The triumphant result was then announced by Brown: openSUSE Leap 42.x would be followed by openSUSE Leap 15. That is when the mailing lists erupted with complaints about this decision; it seems that the inherent rightness of 15 isn't entirely obvious to the community as a whole.
There were complaints that this decision was made in private, without the prior involvement of the community. As anybody who has watched our community for any time knows, had the version-number question been posed to the mailing list as a whole, the result would have certainly been a much more polite conversation converging on an obvious consensus that all participants would then support wholeheartedly. It always works that way, after all, why should this time be any different?
Unsurprisingly, some community members are horrified by the idea of a software release having a lower version number than its predecessor; they think that both humans and scripts might become confused in a world where the first derivative of version numbers is not always positive. But they fail to appreciate the full mathematical complexity of openSUSE version numbers, of which the headline number (15 in this case) is only the most visible. Consider, for example, the suse_version number found within the spec files used to build openSUSE packages.
The old openSUSE 13.1 release sets suse_version
to 1310, while the slightly less old 13.2 release (from 2014) has 1320.
The much newer OpenSUSE
Leap 42 release, having branched off before openSUSE 13.2, uses
1315 for suse_version — another example of what we might call, in
this day and age, "alternative incrementing". OpenSUSE Leap 15 is
expected to use 1500, restoring order to that part of the universe, but at
the cost of creating potential confusion elsewhere. The leading-edge
Tumbleweed release, which should have the highest version number, will not
be content to remain at its current 1330; Brown worries that numerous scripts will
"explode
" when Tumbleweed inevitably leapfrogs Leap to
something over
1500. Throw in sle_version (tied to the underlying SLE version)
and leap_version (giving the precise Leap version — but only in
42.2) and one might argue that a backward step in the major version number
is the least of the project's numbering issues.
That said, this decision has set up another existential crisis for the future: what happens when the SLE 42 release comes out and openSUSE Leap is faced with reusing a version number — a deed seen as being even more foul than going backward? Brown shrugged off this problem, saying that, at the current release rate, SLE 42 isn't due for over 100 years. There should, he implied, be time for plenty of other flame wars before that one needs to heat up.
Brown's math is neglecting an important fact, though: SLE just skipped over two numbers, and might well be expected to do the same thing again in the next century. After all, 16 is a power of two, and all those zeroes might make some potential customers nervous. It's also the atomic number of sulfur; best to just skip it. Italians see 17 as an exceptionally ill-starred number. 18 is voting age in much of the world, and nobody has had luck with voting recently, so that one should be avoided too. 19 is suspiciously prime, but might yet prove acceptable pending further research. And so on; SLE 42 may come far sooner than anybody expects.
Be that as it may, it would appear that minds are made up, and that calls to "kick the board" and continue with
the existing versioning scheme, reasonable as they may be, will go
unheeded. OpenSUSE
may have leaped before it looked, but whether that happened now or back
when "42" was chosen is unclear. The good news is that our community is
resilient, and even openSUSE Leap's version-number decisions will fade into
history to a well-earned place alongside events like the merging of devfs
and the invention of JavaScript. The flames may be high but, once again,
that's a reliable indication that the stakes are low.
Posted Apr 26, 2017 17:04 UTC (Wed)
by MattJD (subscriber, #91390)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Apr 26, 2017 23:03 UTC (Wed)
by jkowing (subscriber, #5172)
[Link]
Posted Apr 27, 2017 3:02 UTC (Thu)
by JdGordy (subscriber, #70103)
[Link]
@Jon, how about just dumping the security page of the newsletter and do a lighthearted article every week? (I mean, for those who cringe at the security state of the world instead of laughing maniacally?)
Posted Apr 27, 2017 3:59 UTC (Thu)
by mcatanzaro (subscriber, #93033)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 27, 2017 8:51 UTC (Thu)
by sysrich (subscriber, #103315)
[Link] (1 responses)
SUSE chose to skip 13 and 14 because of marketing/sales concerns with 13 being considered unlucky and any number including 4 being related to 'death' in eastern cultures.
Obviously, those concerns are something which the openSUSE Project does not share - we already had openSUSE 13.x, and the plan was to have 4x.y as our versioning for the next few decades with Leap.
But that's one of the joys of openSUSE being a very independent community from it's partner and sponsor in SUSE. SUSE made their decision about SUSE Linux Enterprise and figured the community was free to do whatever the heck we wanted.
We could have ignored SUSE's decision entirely, there was no suggestion from SUSE management or anything like that about changing anything.
But given the whole unique point of openSUSE Leap is that it is, by design, a community built derivative of SUSE Linux Enterprise, yeah, the Board and openSUSE's release team are somewhat fond of reflecting that closeness in version numbers. The community at large had expressed similar thoughts in the very, very, very long mailinglist thread we had a few years ago when we chose 42.x in the first place.
Heck, there was even suggestions back then that we should try to encorage SUSE to skip a SLE version or two so they could sync up, but we dismissed that idea as madness because we assumed SLE would NEVER skip a version ;)
And so SUSE's jump (leap?) from 12 to 15 gave us an opportunity to sync up the version numbers. We took it. It isn't going to be pain free, but it's going to be a lot less painful now than doing it in the future. If long mailinglist decisions are the worst fallout of this decision, I can live with that.
Going forward we have a much more sustainable, rational, and easy to maintain structure for Leap versions, which is a good thing, and SUSE and openSUSE can collectively screw up our version numbers of our regular release distributions together in the future, which isn't the worst risk in the world to have.
Posted Apr 28, 2017 22:28 UTC (Fri)
by rahvin (guest, #16953)
[Link]
For those that don't know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar
Posted Apr 26, 2017 17:45 UTC (Wed)
by vbabka (subscriber, #91706)
[Link]
Posted Apr 26, 2017 17:53 UTC (Wed)
by smoogen (subscriber, #97)
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Posted Apr 26, 2017 17:54 UTC (Wed)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (3 responses)
I wonder whether Mozilla Firefox or Google Chrome will reach version 666 first?
Posted Apr 26, 2017 19:23 UTC (Wed)
by Beolach (guest, #77384)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 26, 2017 21:43 UTC (Wed)
by excors (subscriber, #95769)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 28, 2017 18:28 UTC (Fri)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
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Posted Apr 26, 2017 18:08 UTC (Wed)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
For comparison, when Fedora puts an apostrophe in a release name or Ubuntu comes up with the next absurd Adjective Animal title, it all falls quiet relatively quickly.
Posted Apr 26, 2017 18:20 UTC (Wed)
by felixfix (subscriber, #242)
[Link] (5 responses)
And if you have to intermingle stable and beta and alpha versions, well, you might as well compare Emacs and PostgreSQL version numbers to see which tastes better (oranges, but apples are easier to eat).
Posted Apr 26, 2017 21:39 UTC (Wed)
by dgm (subscriber, #49227)
[Link] (1 responses)
To compliment it, let's add release code names that look like the same word, but in different scripts.
Hey, it's going to be lots of fun!
Posted Apr 26, 2017 22:29 UTC (Wed)
by felixfix (subscriber, #242)
[Link]
As for what calendar, that's easy -- the project owners decide. I already said versions are valid only for a specific project and it's meaningless to compare versions in different projects. This should be obvious, as should its corollary, that multiple versions for the same thing just make a mess for no gain.
If project owners want to use French revolutionary decimal time, or Star Trek time, more power to them.
If project owners want to use some bizarro negative time, or choose random numbers, again more power to them. But then won't make their would-be customers happy.
Knuth uses digits of pi and e, IIRC. Each version appends the next version.
Whatever floats your boat. If you want multiple versions based on different calendars, start your own project. But if you lead from too far out front, you may find you have no followers.
Posted Apr 26, 2017 22:58 UTC (Wed)
by tnoo (subscriber, #20427)
[Link]
like, mmmh, 95, 98, 2000, ..., 7, 8, 8.1, 10?
Posted Apr 27, 2017 9:26 UTC (Thu)
by sysrich (subscriber, #103315)
[Link]
But in the case of Leap there is meaning behind the madness
Like in SLE, a major version is meant to be somewhat compatible through it's lifespan. That means several years where users can expect the operating systems behaviour to be mostly the same, no major architectural changes.
Minor updates of that major version (or Service Packs in SLE terminology) may introduce more than just new bug fixes. New features and versions are certainly possible and do happen with surprising frequency, but should never compromise the general premise than the major version is consistent throughout it's lifespan and major 'workflow breaking' changes should wait until the next major release.
In a situation like that, a major/minor model like we now have with Leap 15 (to be followed by 15.1, 15.2, etc, until Leap 16) is very useful, whereas date based systems would not be reflective of what people can expect in each version.
Posted Apr 27, 2017 11:06 UTC (Thu)
by dmoreno (guest, #46333)
[Link]
Posted Apr 26, 2017 19:25 UTC (Wed)
by ballombe (subscriber, #9523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 27, 2017 13:34 UTC (Thu)
by danielkza (subscriber, #66161)
[Link]
Posted Apr 26, 2017 22:01 UTC (Wed)
by neilbrown (subscriber, #359)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 27, 2017 10:59 UTC (Thu)
by MarcB (guest, #101804)
[Link]
I tried hard, but was not able to come up with a date after January, 19th 2038 in my head. Obviously, there is nothing after 2038.
Posted May 4, 2017 13:59 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Or was that so long ago the developers have forgotten how to count since then?
Mind you, according to the website I got that from, the latest kernel is 2.5.3 :-)
Cheers,
Posted Apr 26, 2017 22:16 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 10, 2017 14:03 UTC (Wed)
by Darkstar (guest, #28767)
[Link] (1 responses)
;-)
Posted May 11, 2017 14:35 UTC (Thu)
by sdalley (subscriber, #18550)
[Link]
Posted Apr 27, 2017 6:02 UTC (Thu)
by eru (subscriber, #2753)
[Link] (1 responses)
Indeed, having version numbers increment really is the other important piece of information they convey, the other being uniqueness. Otherwise they could proceed according to the Fibonacci series, or be based on Julian day numbers, or whatever.
Posted Apr 27, 2017 9:48 UTC (Thu)
by zenaan (guest, #3778)
[Link]
Posted Apr 27, 2017 6:22 UTC (Thu)
by _xhr_ (guest, #92665)
[Link]
Posted Apr 27, 2017 6:38 UTC (Thu)
by AdamW (subscriber, #48457)
[Link] (2 responses)
Yours truly, the Fedora team and a large bottle of gin.
Posted Apr 27, 2017 7:21 UTC (Thu)
by niner (subscriber, #26151)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 27, 2017 17:54 UTC (Thu)
by AdamW (subscriber, #48457)
[Link]
Posted Apr 27, 2017 8:33 UTC (Thu)
by sysrich (subscriber, #103315)
[Link] (1 responses)
It's not going to be as controversial as changing version numbers but I've half a mind to suggest to our release team we add a codename Leap 15 and call it "Corbert's Crisis" in honour of this article.
Actually, on second thought..maybe it's best we stick without a codename..
Regards,
- Richard Brown
Posted Apr 28, 2017 18:55 UTC (Fri)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Apr 27, 2017 8:43 UTC (Thu)
by lacos (guest, #70616)
[Link] (3 responses)
> leapfrogs Leap
Beautiful.
> 19 is suspiciously prime
Oh man. The tears.
(2) The incredible backwardness and savagery encoded in various cultures are mind-boggling. Man is man's biggest enemy. Here's another example: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_iron_fish>.
NB I'm not picking on the so-called developing parts of the world; the so-called developed world is terribly superstitious too. Anti-vaxxign? Homeopathy? Remote healing?
(3) Regarding the less than obvious "suse_version" values, I guess the distro is called *tumble*weed for a reason :)
Posted Apr 27, 2017 10:40 UTC (Thu)
by linuxrocks123 (subscriber, #34648)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 27, 2017 12:14 UTC (Thu)
by lacos (guest, #70616)
[Link] (1 responses)
The fact that the ingot had to be cast into fish form, otherwise people wouldn't put it in their pots? See e.g. the attempt with the lotus flower shape:
> The research group distributed an iron disc to women in the village, asking them to place the disc in their pot while making soup or boiling water. The women were reluctant to use the chunk of iron while cooking, and "almost no one used it". [...] Charles and others distributed iron ingots in the shape of a lotus flower, but that was also rejected by the villagers. During discussions with village elders, Charles learned about a fish species deemed a symbol of good luck, health, and happiness in local folklore. The group created fish-shaped iron ingots, which were received more positively by the villagers and led to immediate increases in blood iron levels amongst the villagers, and anemia was virtually eliminated. Charles would later state that "You can have the best treatment in the world, but if people won’t use it, it won't matter."
Posted Apr 28, 2017 18:58 UTC (Fri)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Apr 27, 2017 8:55 UTC (Thu)
by aggelos (subscriber, #41752)
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Posted Apr 27, 2017 12:48 UTC (Thu)
by lkundrak (subscriber, #43452)
[Link]
Thanks for the laughs.
Posted Apr 29, 2017 11:16 UTC (Sat)
by storner (subscriber, #119)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Apr 30, 2017 0:24 UTC (Sun)
by tedd (subscriber, #74183)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Apr 30, 2017 9:33 UTC (Sun)
by excors (subscriber, #95769)
[Link]
Posted Apr 29, 2017 18:02 UTC (Sat)
by tdz (subscriber, #58733)
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Posted Apr 30, 2017 17:40 UTC (Sun)
by lab (guest, #51153)
[Link]
Posted May 1, 2017 9:01 UTC (Mon)
by thoeme (subscriber, #2871)
[Link]
Posted May 6, 2017 18:55 UTC (Sat)
by muwlgr (guest, #35359)
[Link]
Posted May 7, 2017 3:22 UTC (Sun)
by sbishop (guest, #33061)
[Link]
The great leap backward
The great leap backward
Thanks Jonathan for a much needed hearty laugh!
The great leap backward
Quality article
Quality article
Quality article
The great leap backward
The great leap backward
The great leap backward
Many years ago I was working tech support for MSN dial-up internet (I was young and I needed the money, okay?!?!), and for a while the ticket system was giving out 7-digit ticket numbers starting w/ 666. I had one call w/ a customer calling back w/ an existing ticket like that (666xxxx), who asked if they could get a new ticket number w/out the 666. By the time I got that call the ticket system had rolled over to 667xxxx, so I was able to give the caller a new number (w/ notes referencing the old one). But for the first couple of days the caller was calling in about their issue, any new ticket would have still started w/ 666. I thought it was somewhat amusing.
The great leap backward
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The great leap backward
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Wol
The great leap backward
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Unsurprisingly, some community members are horrified by the idea of a software release having a lower version number than its predecessor
The great leap backward
The great leap backward
Great article. I like it when our beloved editor writes a not-so-serious article!
The great leap backward
The great leap backward
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Personally, I appreciate the occasional humorous sentence in a technical article more than I did this article - to me it came off as kind of forced. Please never drop the humor though :-)
The great leap backward
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This article was a nice start into monday morning :-) Besides, if the OpenSuSE community (which I am a member of) has nothing else to worry about, all is great !
- Thomas
The great leap backward
liked it very much
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