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Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 12:21 UTC (Wed) by excors (subscriber, #95769)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by nim-nim
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

> that does not work for current products, news are full of bricked products, designed obsolescence, enshittification, etc.

I think all of that news is about IoT products that depend on cloud services that aren't supported forever. As far as I can see, RYF doesn't say anything about cloud services - it's only concerned with the updateable firmware on the device itself, plus the software used to build and install that firmware, plus Windows drivers on CD-ROM included with the device. They explicitly say RYF "only certifies that hardware respects your freedom and control, and not a vendor's infrastructure or customer service apparatus" (https://ryf.fsf.org/about), but the vendor's infrastructure is the biggest issue for long-term support.

In theory, Free firmware means you could adapt it to work with a new Free cloud service. But I think the cloud software is often much more complex than the firmware, and they're often tightly coupled with a poorly-documented protocol (because both sides were developed in parallel by the same company, and mandatory OTA firmware updates (incidentally forbidden by RYF) mean they don't need to maintain long-term backward compatibility, so they could avoid the hassle of building a well-defined stable interoperable API). When reimplementing the proprietary cloud service to work with the Free firmware, I'm not sure you'd save much effort compared to redesigning and rewriting the whole firmware+cloud system from scratch with a more suitable API.

The better way to avoid bricking of IoT devices is to buy ones that don't require a proprietary cloud service at all, and are compatible with e.g. Home Assistant. The firmware doesn't really matter.


blob or not to blob

Posted Oct 15, 2025 12:21 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46)
In reply to: blob or not to blob by decorum
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

> One can only hope that they don't fail to meet this high standard. With current hardware, you won't get by without blobs. Or you get a RISC-V based smartphone where the drivers are open source.

The manufacturer using RISC-V means trading a blob containing an Arm Cortex-R binary for a blob containing a RISC-V binary [1]. Just because the CPU instruction set is nominally "open" doesn't mean any of the rest of the silicon will be.

[1] Likely put together using some sort of proprietary instruction set extension and a proprietary toolchain. Because "freedom for me, but not for thee"


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 12:10 UTC (Wed) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by mikebenden
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

Since most users don't have hardware fabs at home, the release of the source code will not do much for end user freedom...

But I happen to think the original premise of the free software movement was flawed: Stallman couldn't fix the printer driver but he drew the wrong conclusions. What he needed was not the source code, but the specifications. Open specs is the important thing. Source code can be obfuscated, deliberately or otherwise.

In the blob case, if the hardware were well documented, it would be easier to write open blobs.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 11:56 UTC (Wed) by DOT (subscriber, #58786)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by khim
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

I understand the need for an imaginary "line" between hardware and software, because the FSF wants to reduce its scope. In an ideal world, all tech (regardless of hardware or software) would be free and open, but that does not seem to be feasible due to market forces. Capitalism drives innovation, but it also encourages secrecy and exploitation.

Against all odds, free software seems to have become a successful minority in the software landscape. On the other hand, free hardware is very much relegated to the margins. So if you don't draw a line somewhere, you can only conclude that freedom is currently completely out of reach. But whenever you *do* draw a line, you'll get unintended consequences, because the line indeed doesn't really make sense.

To end on a hopeful note: free hardware might get a little boost from the recent Right to Repair movement and legislation. That might end up creating a market and legal environment in which full-stack tech freedom becomes feasible.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 11:23 UTC (Wed) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by farnz
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

Because the RMA has a cost to the manufacturer and the cost is hopefully enough to push the manufacturer to a fully user-serviceable stack. And once the RMA is paid for the manufacturer could just as well swap parts. You talk like RMAs have no cost manufacturer-side, they are quite expensive to organise, they are a competitive disadvantage.

Is it ideal ? No. Like all non profits the FSF is more constrained than the legislator.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 11:10 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by mikebenden
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

The whole premise that there is “the line” to respect is flawed. In a world where physical objects are created from software (not just VHDL or Verilog, but 3D printing, too) such line doesn't exist.

That means that “world without proprietary software” that FSF wanted to build doesn't exist too.

But that doesn't mean that freedom doesn't matter… it does. Just the goal worth pursuing is not to attempt to achieve some kind of nirvana without proprietary software, but to reduce dependency on third-party, closed, solutions.

And if you put it like that then drawing few meaningful lines becomes pretty easy. Just not the ultimate line that everyone may agree on, once and for all.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 11:04 UTC (Wed) by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by nim-nim
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

If the FSF's position is as you say, why does RYF certify devices where there are DRM-protected blobs that prevent you from servicing the firmware yourself, but that permit the manufacturer to service the firmware with a small wire link during RMA?

Why does RYF explicitly permit devices that can only be serviced by the OEM and not by the end user, while rejecting devices where the end user has the necessary access to service it?

As far as I can tell, the sole justification for this is that if RYF insisted that firmware was serviceable by the end user, or not serviceable by the OEM at all, there would be very few certified devices, and none that handled RF at all.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 11:04 UTC (Wed) by hailfinger (subscriber, #76962)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by marcH
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

Well, there are some patents where getting a license for the patent may put arbitrary legal burdens on software development. Apart from that, some hardware blobs ("IP cores") are sold with corresponding software blobs (drivers) and there simply is no documentation for customers to implement the software side themselves.
That said, I've also been told that open sourcing certain drivers is not possible without making it obvious that the driver is colliding with a software patent. Closed source code is claimed to be a bit harder to analyze for patent collisions, so any patent troll may have to expend additional effort. I'm unsure if that argument really holds water, but at least some people subscribe to that belief.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 10:50 UTC (Wed) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by farnz
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

The FSF position is that if some software is serviceable it should be liberated so the servicing promise is effective and if it’s not serviceable it’s not its problem. It quite nicely fits with consumer protection laws such as the EU CRA that require some things to be serviceable. Making servicing promises effective is a big enough fight without branching out into other considerations. Focus is good for any non-profit.

You want things to be sort of serviceable except when the OEM feels it is inconvenient, that did not work for Stallman’s printer and that does not work for current products, news are full of bricked products, designed obsolescence, enshittification, etc.


Disable "chat" image menu

Posted Oct 15, 2025 10:37 UTC (Wed) by mote (guest, #173576)
Parent article: Firefox 144.0 released

Even though I have a litany of browser.ml.*.enabled settings set to False, right-clicking on the LWN penguin image top left just gave me a "Search with Chat..." option (which can be removed via a click). Here's an updated list of things that need to be set in `user.js` to disable said features:

user_pref("browser.ml.chat.enabled", false);
user_pref("browser.ml.chat.menu", false);
user_pref("browser.ml.chat.page", false);
user_pref("browser.ml.chat.shortcuts", false);
user_pref("browser.ml.chat.sidebar", false);
user_pref("browser.ml.enable", false);
user_pref("browser.ml.linkPreview.enabled", false);
user_pref("browser.ml.linkPreview.optin", false);
user_pref("browser.ml.modelHubRootUrl", "");


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 10:13 UTC (Wed) by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by ryanduve
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

Yes, because I start without HTML tags, and add as I need formatting. For short comments like this, no tags.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 10:13 UTC (Wed) by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by nim-nim
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

The FSF's position is disconnected from reality - it says that if I burn the software into ROM, and require you to pay for an RMA, it's fine to lock the software down so that it cannot be serviced any other way, but if I allow you to change the software, it's not OK.

As a consequence, most "RYF" devices take firmware that is intended to be serviced, and cut the "write enable" pin to the flash device so that it cannot be serviced in the field, but instead has to be returned for repair if there's a bug in the software.

This is not a strawman - this is a very real problem. And the FSF's attitude is that this is what we want - software locked down so that it can only be serviced by return to manufacturer, not in the field.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 9:54 UTC (Wed) by ryanduve (subscriber, #127786)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by farnz
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

Off topic, but did you intentionally put all your paragraphs in `<p>` tags except the first? I only noticed because I can triple click the second and third paragraphs but not the first.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 9:52 UTC (Wed) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by farnz
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

The FSF position is that blobs that do not need servicing because the software is “done” can be burned into ROMS and do not require liberation, but things that can not be burned into ROM because they require servicing bloody need to be treated as other software that requires servicing. Including liberation so the servicing can be performed by third parties when the OEM feels abandoning products and bricking them is better for its bottom line.

The FSF position is quite simple and easy to understand as long as you do not engage in strawmen, and remember it was all kickstarted by the need to service a broken printer. It is basically right-to-repair for software, decades before right-to-repair became a grassroot movement.

It is all way clearer than the intellectual contortions people engage to invent mythical it-is-like-software-but-it-should-be-locked-because-bigcorp-says-so categories.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 9:10 UTC (Wed) by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by nim-nim
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

The problem is that the FSF's case as set out by RYF is that proprietary blobs with full-blown DRM to prevent a user from attempting to service them are acceptable as long as you lock in the bugs at time of manufacture. And I cannot see a valid argument for that particular contortion.

Either blobs are unacceptable full-stop (but that means ruling out access to SCSI, IDE, NVMe, SATA, SAS etc HDDs and SSDs), or they should be user-serviceable - including allowing the user to reverse-engineer and modify their own systems in ways the manufacturer does not approve of.

But the FSF's position is that blobs that are in ROM are A-OK, even if the manufacturer intended them to be updated at runtime, and even if they have known serious bugs, but blobs that can be modified by a sufficiently motivated user are not, and I cannot make sense out of this position.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 8:19 UTC (Wed) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by dskoll
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

> In other cases, it's just way simpler to perform a function in software rather than hardware, and if you're going to need software anyway, you might as well make it field-replaceable so if bugs are found, they can be fixed on the fly. It's unlikely that said software contains intellectual property of any value and far more likely that it's embarrassingly badly-written and tied so tightly to a very specific piece of hardware that it would be almost useless for an end-user to try to tinker with it

You’ve pretty much made the FSF case, blobs are just software (and most often badly written software that would benefit from outside review), there is no business case for keeping them proprietary except the habits and beliefs of managers that went to electronics courses where software (moreover, FOSS software) was not a thing.

I do remember how the people in charge of the electronics deps at my uni steadfastly chose all the worst possible software dead ends on the market for their tooling, the dumber and disconnected from software culture they were the more they appealed to them. Sometimes it seemed they were deliberately targeted by sellers of aborted solutions, just like scammers target the old and vulnerable.


blob or not to blob

Posted Oct 15, 2025 8:09 UTC (Wed) by joib (subscriber, #8541)
In reply to: blob or not to blob by decorum
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

RISC-V being an 'open' ISA does not in any way guarantee that devices using RISC-V CPU's won't be locked down and/or require FW blobs and/or proprietary drivers.

The x86 ecosystem being relatively open seems to be a historical anomaly. Manufacturers seem determined to not make that mistake again.


blob or not to blob

Posted Oct 15, 2025 6:23 UTC (Wed) by decorum (subscriber, #178110)
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

One can only hope that they don't fail to meet this high standard. With current hardware, you won't get by without blobs. Or you get a RISC-V based smartphone where the drivers are open source.


Perfection is the enemy of good

Posted Oct 15, 2025 5:35 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642)
In reply to: Perfection is the enemy of good by Trelane
Parent article: The FSF's Librephone project

> It seems to me that it's for "intellectual property" reasons, not functional ones.

How so? I really fail to imagine the legal conspiracy here...

Firmware is just software and exists for the very same reasons. Why do people use software ? Hardware is faster after all!


Libre AI?

Posted Oct 15, 2025 4:42 UTC (Wed) by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
Parent article: The FSF considers large language models

Was there any discussion of what a Libre ML model, LLM or AI could look like?

Personally I like Debian's document about that:

https://salsa.debian.org/deeplearning-team/ml-policy/

It would be very useful to have at least some of the former, for things like human language translation, noise removal from audio, text to speech, speech to text and so on.



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