"Something has gone seriously wrong," dual-boot systems warn after Microsoft update (Ars Technica)
Ars Technica covers a recent update that is causing problems for users with systems that dual-boot Windows and Linux.
"Note that Windows says this update won't apply to systems that dual-boot Windows and Linux," one frustrated person wrote. "This obviously isn't true, and likely depends on your system configuration and the distribution being run. It appears to have made some linux efi shim bootloaders incompatible with microcrap efi bootloaders (that's why shifting from MS efi to 'other OS' in efi setup works). It appears that Mint has a shim version that MS SBAT doesn't recognize."
The reports indicate that multiple distributions, including Debian, Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Zorin OS, and Puppy Linux, are all affected. Microsoft has yet to acknowledge the error publicly, explain how it wasn't detected during testing, or provide technical guidance to those affected. Company representatives didn't respond to an email seeking answers.
Posted Aug 21, 2024 19:17 UTC (Wed)
by mokki (subscriber, #33200)
[Link] (22 responses)
*) Technically one OS could try update grub2 of other operating systems, but that is not polite and thus no Linux distro nor Windows attempts to do it.
**) If step 4 is not done, the system is vulnerable to anyone with a malicious USB stick.
Both Windows and any Linux distribution with fwupd installed has been prompting for users to do step 4 now for 2 years.
And this is how we got to this mess:
If people are angry at Microsoft, then how many years of grace time should they have given to Linux distributions?
I would rather ask, which distributions need to improve their process of updating their boot packages, that are important part of the whole system security. And also their prompting/nagging of users to apply updates might need improving.
As far as I know, Fedora patched the grub2 two years ago and installs it automatically, or at least I managed to update it easily for my 4 different systems when fwupd informed that it cannot update the BIOS block list until I do so.
Posted Aug 21, 2024 19:20 UTC (Wed)
by shironeko (subscriber, #159952)
[Link]
Posted Aug 21, 2024 20:15 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Aug 22, 2024 4:14 UTC (Thu)
by mokki (subscriber, #33200)
[Link]
But from users or Linux OS point of view I would still say that we update the BIOS when SBAT is changed because the data lives in the NVRAM chip.
Posted Aug 22, 2024 15:12 UTC (Thu)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (1 responses)
We've spent decades helping Microsoft to build a walled-garden on UEFI systems ("Oh, but you can turn it off!", uhm, so how do I do so on this ARM tablet I have here?), and now a step of the chain-boot is to verify a.... non-HMAC string?
Posted Aug 22, 2024 15:17 UTC (Thu)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
That string is part of a larger, already-authenticated binary.
Posted Aug 21, 2024 20:16 UTC (Wed)
by mussell (subscriber, #170320)
[Link] (16 responses)
I have been running systems without secure boot for decades and I have never been hacked. What exactly am I supposed to be worried about?
Posted Aug 21, 2024 20:36 UTC (Wed)
by NightMonkey (subscriber, #23051)
[Link] (1 responses)
This. Is there a clear exploited-in-the-wild path that makes "secure boot" worth the effort and risk?
Posted Aug 21, 2024 21:08 UTC (Wed)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link]
Posted Aug 21, 2024 20:52 UTC (Wed)
by intelfx (subscriber, #130118)
[Link] (4 responses)
Are we supposed to base our security decisions on a single anonymous anecdote on the Internet?
Posted Aug 22, 2024 6:25 UTC (Thu)
by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375)
[Link] (3 responses)
>Are we supposed to base our security decisions on a single anonymous anecdote on the Internet?
The survivor bias needs to be called out, too, but the core rhetorical stance is at least asking "what am I missing?"
Survivor Bias: thinking a failure mode is not likely to happen to you because it's never happened to you before now.
K3n.
Posted Aug 22, 2024 13:38 UTC (Thu)
by linuxrocks123 (subscriber, #34648)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Aug 22, 2024 13:39 UTC (Thu)
by linuxrocks123 (subscriber, #34648)
[Link]
Posted Aug 23, 2024 21:12 UTC (Fri)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link]
Posted Aug 21, 2024 20:58 UTC (Wed)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (7 responses)
One scenario that you might worry about is PCs that have physical access by not entirely trustworthy people. Think library catalog workstations or Internet access machines, for example.
This is very difficult to defend against for sure, but secure boot is a part of the defense.
Posted Aug 21, 2024 21:13 UTC (Wed)
by yeltsin (guest, #171611)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Aug 21, 2024 21:16 UTC (Wed)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (4 responses)
The UEFI boot source settings.
Posted Aug 21, 2024 21:26 UTC (Wed)
by yeltsin (guest, #171611)
[Link] (3 responses)
And "secure" boot helps here… how? Either you allow booting from USB devices (and other sources), and the bad guy can boot into any signed image, even if it's the Windows installer (where you can get a shell and do whatever to the system), or you don't snd secure boot is simply unnecessary.
I'm not claiming the world doesn't need it, but I haven't found a use case for it during the 10 or 12 years it's been around, and remembering how much concern it raised when it was introduced I have a feeling we somehow talked ourselves into believing it's a good thing since it was forced down upon us.
Posted Aug 21, 2024 21:30 UTC (Wed)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link]
It's not supposed to.
Posted Aug 22, 2024 15:32 UTC (Thu)
by pflugstad (subscriber, #224)
[Link] (1 responses)
If I disable secure boot, I no longer have access to the TPM keys, so I cannot access the C: drive.
I'm sure there are holes in this, but I think that's the main reason.
So this makes your basic evil maid attack more difficult.
Posted Aug 23, 2024 21:40 UTC (Fri)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link]
The upshot is that you only have to type your password once (at login time) instead of twice (once at boot to decrypt, and then once at login), while still getting nearly all of the protection of full disk encryption, plus rate-limiting and some ability to deploy additional countermeasures in software (e.g. you can remotely log all login attempts, remotely wipe lost or stolen devices, etc.). While businesses generally tend to be more interested in those use cases than consumers, end users do benefit from smartphones becoming harder to steal.
The only attack I can think of that fails against traditional full disk encryption but might succeed against TPM-based encryption is a cold boot attack. Apparently at least one group has demonstrated[1] that this is possible. But that paper was presented over 15 years ago,[2] so modern systems might use TPMs differently. On top of that, modern smartphones are accidentally highly tamper evident (because manufacturers value thinness over repairability and use glue instead of more reasonable construction techniques).
[1]: https://www.usenix.org/legacy/event/sec08/tech/full_paper...
Posted Aug 22, 2024 0:53 UTC (Thu)
by raven667 (subscriber, #5198)
[Link]
Posted Aug 22, 2024 1:44 UTC (Thu)
by geofft (subscriber, #59789)
[Link]
Secure boot is not intended to protect against remote / network attacks, and it's also not intended to protect against physically-present attackers. It's intended to protect against malware that's already on your device from gaining additional local powers to make itself persistent. So the fact that you haven't been hacked isn't really relevant to whether you run secure boot; secure boot only applies once you've been hacked. And I suspect that the median LWN commenter who has skepticism about security models is unlikely to let consumer-grade malware get onto their system in the first place, for many reasons, including basic awareness that phishing is a thing. (I think this is true even given that said median commenter is much more likely than the median computer user to run random code from not-super-trustworthy sources, in the sense that the median LWN user tends to compile things from source by running a ./configure generated by someone else that they haven't read and understood in its entirety.)
However, the median Windows user very much is likely to let consumer-grade malware get onto their system despite the best efforts of UAC and code signing requirements and all that, and I think it is reasonable for the major Linux distros to consider their median user these days as closer to the median Windows user than the median LWN commenter. So it seems absolutely reasonable for Windows and mostly reasonable for Linux distros to default to setting up secure boot.
(Signatures by themselves are indeed not security, which is why secure boot has always come with a revocation mechanism, and the issue at hand is about invalidating existing bootloaders with valid signatures. On a machine with secure boot, kernel drivers do not have firmware access, so an exploit that gets you code execution in GRUB is actually more meaningful than an exploit that gets you code execution in the booted kernel. While the situation isn't really analogous in either direction, I would say that the fact that the Crowdstrike outage was resolvable by rebooting your machine about ten times to get it to download the un-botched update is an argument that protecting the integrity of the boot process is valuable even when you've lost kernel integrity.)
Posted Aug 22, 2024 6:53 UTC (Thu)
by wtarreau (subscriber, #51152)
[Link] (12 responses)
I love the sentence: “You might find that older Linux distribution ISOs will not boot. If this occurs, work with your Linux vendor to get an update.”
In short: "if for any reason (data recovery, compatibility testing etc), you need to boot from a previously working system image on this machine, you may no longer be allowed to, as we're now officially making all your past software end-of-life on your own hardware, thank you very much for trusting us".
Posted Aug 22, 2024 7:46 UTC (Thu)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (11 responses)
(Is secure boot being on by default a sensible choice? I think there's a perfectly reasonable argument to be had about that, but given that's where we are I don't think this is a surprising outcome)
Posted Aug 22, 2024 12:59 UTC (Thu)
by wtarreau (subscriber, #51152)
[Link] (10 responses)
Overall users are progressively getting used to lose any rights on their hardware. If such a crap had existed 33 years ago, Linux would never had existed in the first place, windows would be mandatory everywhere and everyone would find this normal.
Posted Aug 22, 2024 13:36 UTC (Thu)
by yeltsin (guest, #171611)
[Link] (1 responses)
When it was introduced, the BIOS vendor was supposed to allow the user to disable SB or be able to install their own certificates (which is a pain in itself: my cousin recently had to go through that when installing some distro for the first time, and it was *not* trivial for a beginner. As we very well know from research published by Amazon, every insignificant roadblock loses you some users.). Unless you're running ARM, where no such requirement existed.
Then that requirement was quietly dropped just a couple of years later:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/wi...
I hope that the renewed push from the FTC and the EU to force these monopolies in line will prevent them from further tightening the screws.
Posted Aug 22, 2024 13:40 UTC (Thu)
by bluca (subscriber, #118303)
[Link]
The LF was asked to be the entity overseeing this, and refused to do so. That's because it's incredibly expensive, risky and time consuming to run a free signing service for third parties. The reason Microsoft does this, is because nobody else wanted to.
Posted Aug 22, 2024 13:43 UTC (Thu)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
[Citation needed] -- especially since being able to disable secure boot (as well as the ability to enroll your own keys) was a requirement to getting Windows certification, and even putting that aside, unless you were installing the then-new Windows 8, it needed to be disabled completely anyway.
(Now for non-x86 systems, Microsoft did not, and still does not, impose these requirements. So those have been nearly always locked down from the outset)
> Overall users are progressively getting used to lose any rights on their hardware.
While this is true, on the other hand the entire notion of "general purpose operating systems independent of the hardware" is the exception, not the norm. In every other context the hardware maker has always been the provider of the (nearly always) sole operating system option.
Posted Aug 22, 2024 17:50 UTC (Thu)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (6 responses)
No, there weren't.
Posted Aug 24, 2024 1:12 UTC (Sat)
by sobkas (subscriber, #40809)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Aug 24, 2024 1:40 UTC (Sat)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (4 responses)
All Certified For Windows PCs allow you to turn off Secure Boot so that you can run any software."
So, no?
Posted Aug 24, 2024 7:38 UTC (Sat)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
When the Windows Surface came out (Arm-based) I remember a load of stuff about how the windows spec said secure boot was required and couldn't be disabled for these things. I never went near one, so I never found out if it was true ...
Cheers,
Posted Aug 24, 2024 19:28 UTC (Sat)
by sobkas (subscriber, #40809)
[Link] (2 responses)
So there were machines that didn't allowed to turn off Secure Boot, right?
Posted Aug 24, 2024 19:35 UTC (Sat)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link]
That statement used to be a challenge rather than a fact for the Open Source community.
With locked down boot the challenge becomes really large, though.
Posted Aug 24, 2024 19:46 UTC (Sat)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link]
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
1. bad security bug was found from grub2 2 years ago
2. fixed grub2 was released 2 years ago
3. each operating system using grub2 has to patch their own grub2 version (there can be many Linux distros installed) *)
4. after they are all patched the BIOS hash denylist has to be updated **)
5. system is protected and both Linux and Windows work again correctly with secure boot.
But to prevent the current mess, both Microsoft and fwupd try to detect if step 3 is done correctly. If they notice that there is an unpatched grub2 from a random Linux distribution still present in the system they block the BIOS update in step 4.
1. some distributions seem to be afraid to update their packages in their boot chain
2. thus many Linux users had to automatic way to make their system secure and the distributions did not want to prompt the users to fix manually their system security
3. (speculation) Microsoft had hard coded a list of vulnerable grub2 versions that prevent the system BIOS update and added a 2 year grace period to it after which the system will be finally secured, wrote a blog about it and trusted that all is good
4. users find out their system no longer boots to Linux and have to temporarily disable secure boot, and do the 2 year late patching of their grub2 versions
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
And you are correct that in strict sense one it can be seen as not part of firmware because updating it has been standardized to not require support from motherboard manufacturer.
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
Not Survivor Bias
Not Survivor Bias
Not Survivor Bias
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
BitLocker encryption
BitLocker encryption
[2]: https://www.usenix.org/legacy/events/sec08/sec08_sponsor.pdf
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
This is only a risk for Linux users that have not patched their boot packages in the last 2 years
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
Wol
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway
So today it's more of a fact than a challenge.
Which is a loss.
Users are willing to accept anything from Microsoft anyway