Glad I am not using FreeBSD
Glad I am not using FreeBSD
Posted Aug 20, 2024 10:53 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252)In reply to: Glad I am not using FreeBSD by taladar
Parent article: FreeBSD considers Rust in the base system
I think you are missing a lot of context here, that's why the overreaction.
> Also, why would anyone want to reimplement some ancient CVS related tool? Presumably that is still in some way important to FreeBSD?I'll correct for you: Also, why would anyone want to reimplement some ancient CVS related tool central tool which is used to manage FreeBSD code?
Does that question even need answers?
> Presumably that is still in some way important to FreeBSD?From the FreeBSD wiki: FreeBSD uses a mixture of CVS and Perforce for managing the various source trees and projects; CVS (extended with cvsup) is the "authoritative" revision control system, and contains four complete and independent repositories (src, ports, projects, doc), but its limitations regarding heavily branched independent development are significant (emphasis mine).
Asking to reimplement pretty important tool that's written, for some unfathomable reason, in a Modula-3, of all things, sounds like a pretty reasonable request.
There are plenty of people who are seeking projects to rewrite in Rust (as learning excercise), asking one of them to rewrite CVSup before doing more commitment would be a good idea. Maybe it's possible to even convince some company to give funds for such excercise to someone.
Posted Aug 20, 2024 11:13 UTC (Tue)
by Vorpal (guest, #136011)
[Link]
It does raise the question as to why FreeBSD would still be relying on CVS in this day and age...
That said Modula-3 seems to be a saner language than C or C++ (I say this as a professional C++ developer who have worked in safety critical hard real-time for over a decade, and am now a huge fan of Rust).
Looking at the examples on Wikipedia for Modula-3 it reminds me of a mix of Pascal/Ada with the upper case of Fortran. I prefer something a bit less verbose and more functional personally, but it sounds like it is at least somewhat memory safe.
At the time it was probably a sensible choice (the other options would be been Ada or a scripting language I guess?). Now it will suffer from the lack of an ecosystem, which means fewer people who understand the code, and less available libraries (meaning you have to write everything yourself).
Posted Aug 20, 2024 13:37 UTC (Tue)
by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167)
[Link] (1 responses)
- Is there "buy in"? Do the users of CVSup want Rust CVSup, or does it just go in the pile of "Tasks we set for Rust developers as a prank" when you're finished?
- Is the present behaviour of CVSup well characterised, documented, maybe there are even unit tests so that we can tell whether our Rust CVSup is in fact a working replacement ?
- Is there something CVSup doesn't do that a Rust CVSup could fix? Or equally something it does do that it shouldn't?
My guess is that in fact these are merely "top bants" and in practice there is no actual interest in a Rust CVSup so this exercise would be futile.
Notice the linked Perforce page just tells you FreeBSD hasn't used Perforce for years. This is legacy documentation, most of FreeBSD's documentation can be described as "Somebody wrote this, nobody is in charge of making sure it's still correct and we don't keep records of what it's about or why it was written. Good luck". Maybe CVSUp is exciting new software just introduced, maybe it is being replaced with a C equivalent for platform compat reasons. Maybe both those stories are long obsolete.
Posted Aug 21, 2024 17:34 UTC (Wed)
by mrugiero (guest, #153040)
[Link]
Posted Aug 20, 2024 14:14 UTC (Tue)
by HJVT (guest, #172982)
[Link] (2 responses)
That's not the request though. The request is for someone interested in getting language A adopted in base to reimplement a tool written in an obscure language B, that has not seen continued development in nearly 15 years, nor has ever seen significant adoption.
Posted Aug 20, 2024 14:25 UTC (Tue)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
Have you actually tried to rewrite something? I mean: ever in your life? Sure, you need to know two languages, but most of the time you have to be an expert only in target language, you need to have only very rough understanding of source language. Otherwise these projects that replace COBOL with Java would have been entirely impossible (and in reality only half of them fail).
Posted Aug 21, 2024 17:38 UTC (Wed)
by mrugiero (guest, #153040)
[Link]
Posted Aug 20, 2024 14:39 UTC (Tue)
by a12l (guest, #144384)
[Link] (4 responses)
That article is there for historical reasons (as noted in the banner at the top), and not actually relevant nowadays. FreeBSD has migrated from CVS --> SVN --> Git, the latest migration done around 2020.
Posted Aug 20, 2024 14:44 UTC (Tue)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (3 responses)
If that's true then I have to agree with taladar and repeat after him: I am so glad I am not using FreeBSD anywhere.
Posted Aug 20, 2024 15:01 UTC (Tue)
by shawn.webb (subscriber, #118686)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Aug 20, 2024 15:23 UTC (Tue)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
Nothing is wrong with using Git. But asking for a rewrite of a tool that you are no longer using is just dishonest.
Posted Aug 21, 2024 7:16 UTC (Wed)
by viro (subscriber, #7872)
[Link]
They paid _hard_ for that mistake with m3. Granted, rust toolchain is nowhere near that horror (look it up yourself - it really could be used as an object lesson in how not to do language toolchains), but cvsup story must've left very painful scars.
Posted Aug 21, 2024 8:06 UTC (Wed)
by taladar (subscriber, #68407)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted Aug 21, 2024 8:46 UTC (Wed)
by chris_se (subscriber, #99706)
[Link] (9 responses)
Huh? Personally, I found SVN to be a huge step up from CVS. Back in the day (pre git) I switched over to it from CVS before even SVN 1.0, because it was so much better in my eyes. Granted, I've been using git exclusively for everything for a long time now, and I don't want to look back. And don't get me wrong: I do have lots of criticisms for SVN - but I'm utterly baffled by the statement that CVS is better than SVN. Could you elaborate what CVS does better than SVN in your eyes?
Posted Aug 21, 2024 10:46 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Aug 21, 2024 15:16 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Aug 21, 2024 15:50 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (2 responses)
Googling suggests FSFS came out in SVN 1.1, in 2004-09-29. Anyone burned by the BDB implementation in SVN was, obviously, going to wait a while to see how FSFS panned out before jumping in. At that point, the DSCM movement was already underway, with monotone and Darcs (evolving from Arch) in existence - giving further pause to anyone considering switching SCM to see how things would pan out. Less than 8 months later we got git (and mercurial soon after).
There was a window in 2002 to '03 or so when SVN looked like maybe it was the answer to "what should replace CVS?". But it was buggy. By the time you could FSFS was available and trustworthy, it was too late.
Posted Aug 22, 2024 7:18 UTC (Thu)
by chris_se (subscriber, #99706)
[Link] (1 responses)
Additionally, while git was started in 2005, I remember looking at it in early 2006 (or so) and was immediately put off, because the user interface back then was atrocious (IMHO). I don't remember exactly when, but I only looked at git again somewhere in 2008 or 2009, when the user interface had already gotten much better.
So I had at least 7 years of mostly good experiences with SVN back then. Now of course, in hindsight there are a lot of shortcomings in its design, and from the lens of today I'd probably characterize my experience working with SVN back then very differently. But at the time I didn't have that much to complain about. I definitely wouldn't want to go back from git.
I can definitely see the perspective you shared as to why you didn't seriously consider SVN as a successor to CVS for historic reasons. But I'm still confused as to the statement I replied to initially that CVS is slightly better than SVN (present tense). It might have been in 2003 when FSFS didn't yet exist (due to bugs in BDB), but nowadays?
Posted Aug 22, 2024 11:42 UTC (Thu)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link]
AFAIR the main advantage of SVN compared to CVS was that SVN would let you rename directories.
I personally used SVN for a bit but then moved over to Arch and eventually to Mercurial (which IMHO is way underrated). At work these days we're using Git, but for me, that needs Magit to make it halfway bearable.
Posted Aug 22, 2024 8:04 UTC (Thu)
by taladar (subscriber, #68407)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Aug 26, 2024 7:49 UTC (Mon)
by marcH (subscriber, #57642)
[Link] (2 responses)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Subversion#Subversio...
Posted Aug 26, 2024 9:30 UTC (Mon)
by kleptog (subscriber, #1183)
[Link] (1 responses)
I think it was Linus in a discussion about Git noting that the one thing a revision control system really needed to be good at was merging and SVN failed that miserably.
git-svn was the only thing that made it usable for me. Then I could have local branches without dealing with the server.
Posted Aug 26, 2024 15:13 UTC (Mon)
by marcH (subscriber, #57642)
[Link]
Glad I am not using FreeBSD
>
> Does that question even need answers?
Glad I am not using FreeBSD
Glad I am not using FreeBSD
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So it would seem absolutely fair to assume that barely anybody knows the language B, which means the request is actually to learn this language to a fairly competent level. Which somehow will demonstrate that the value of adopting the language A?
Glad I am not using FreeBSD
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But I'm still confused as to the statement I replied to initially that CVS is slightly better than SVN (present tense).
Glad I am not using FreeBSD
Glad I am not using FreeBSD
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Glad I am not using FreeBSD
