I can't understand the logic for this

Posted Aug 12, 2024 20:52 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
In reply to: I can't understand the logic for this by dilinger
Parent article: COSMIC desktop makes its debut

> Then there's the route that COSMIC took, which is _also_ a lot of work, but allows them to bypass design decisions that they don't like. If you're frustrated with an ancient C code base, an embedded javascript engine, and various other designs that are a core part of GNOME.. then COSMIC's seems like the route to go. And honestly, as a frustrated sometimes-gnome/sometimes-cinnamon user, I'm pretty excited to see what they come up with.

Isn't this called the "second system effect"? Where you look at all the (wrong?) design decisions the original designers took, and rewrite it to avoid them? Then after a few years or so, another bunch of people look at all the (wrong?) decisions you took, and rewrite it again?

That's why I like Multi-Value - I used a "second system" which based a nice clean design on all the good (and bad) decisions of the original designers. And it did its best to stick with the clean design, bodging a load of corner cases to actually work, but always sticking to the clean basic design as best it could keep theory in line with reality.

It's hard to do that, but it makes for a damn good system. The trouble with Gnome, and KDE, and a lot of these systems is if you don't have - and stick to!!! - that clean core, you eventually end up with a system that is more string and sealing wax and sticking plaster than anything else.

Cheers,
Wol

I can't understand the logic for this

Posted Aug 12, 2024 22:44 UTC (Mon) by dilinger (subscriber, #2867) [Link] (5 responses)

> Isn't this called the "second system effect"? Where you look at all the (wrong?) design decisions the original designers took, and rewrite it to avoid them? Then after a few years or so, another bunch of people look at all the (wrong?) decisions you took, and rewrite it again?

I think generally rewrites are frowned upon where you have a system that is efficient and works (but is considered "ugly" or "unmaintainable"). Considering the number of people who are unhappy with GNOME's UI and features (just based on the number of forks, extensions to change the UX, and the existence of stuff like Mate), I don't think it really works for a huge number of people. That includes me and my wife, for different reasons, despite trying our best.

I can't understand the logic for this

Posted Aug 13, 2024 7:21 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (4 responses)

> I think generally rewrites are frowned upon where you have a system that is efficient and works (but is considered "ugly" or "unmaintainable").

This is usually called "legacy" - aka "nobody's keeping this up to date (but nobody asks whether it NEEDS keeping up to date or is feature complete)".

> Considering the number of people who are unhappy with GNOME's UI and features (just based on the number of forks, extensions to change the UX, and the existence of stuff like Mate), I don't think it really works for a huge number of people.

I just don't get on with Gnome. Different people think different ways (I also don't get on with WYSIWYG especially Microsoft's vision, that everyone else has blindly copied), and I just want a UI that "just works" and doesn't NEED changing every five minutes!

KDE, WordPerfect, Multi-Value, they just *click* for me and the cognitive load of making them do what *I* want is just so much lower ... this is where the modern "winner takes all" is so damaging, because usually the winner is not the truly most popular, it's the one with the most money that can buy-out / bankrupt the opposition.

Or, as with Open Source, that one that can get the most early-adopter mindshare in the academic "who cares if it's ivory tower" world, and not what actually works in the real world ...

Cheers,
Wol

I can't understand the logic for this

Posted Aug 13, 2024 8:54 UTC (Tue) by patrick_g (subscriber, #44470) [Link] (3 responses)

> I just want a UI that "just works" and doesn't NEED changing every five minutes!

XFCE is the answer.

I can't understand the logic for this

Posted Aug 13, 2024 9:16 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

:-)

(I did try that in the KDE4 days, when my main desktop boot-time was "more than 36 hours from login prompt to usable desktop" ...)

Cheers,
Wol

I can't understand the logic for this

Posted Aug 13, 2024 10:02 UTC (Tue) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

No, MATE is the answer! GNOME 2 forever - the perfect desktop.

Splitter!

I can't understand the logic for this

Posted Aug 13, 2024 12:10 UTC (Tue) by rrolls (subscriber, #151126) [Link]

Hooray, I'm not alone :)