UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 25, 2024 7:54 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
In reply to: UI and elderly users by cjwatson
Parent article: Lessons from the death and rebirth of Thunderbird

You've read my rants !!!

:-)

(My in-laws are in their 90s, my wife has Parkinsons, both seriously interfere with their ability to adapt to change!)

Cheers,
Wol

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 25, 2024 14:16 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (16 responses)

If the couldn't adapt to the change then why the heck they apply the change?

That's what always surprised me: why the simplest solution to the constant interface change is reviled that much?

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 25, 2024 14:24 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (15 responses)

> If the couldn't adapt to the change then why the heck they apply the change?

Because the "choice" (if thre even is one) essentially consists of "continue to run known-vulnerable stuff that is being actively exploited" or "accept/deal with a lot of unrelated changes"

> That's what always surprised me: why the simplest solution to the constant interface change is reviled that much?

Because that "simplest solution" is almost never an option.

(If only because hardly anyone is willing to pay to maintain that option)

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 25, 2024 14:40 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (14 responses)

> > If the couldn't adapt to the change then why the heck they apply the change?

> Because the "choice" (if thre even is one) essentially consists of "continue to run known-vulnerable stuff that is being actively exploited" or "accept/deal with a lot of unrelated changes"

The choice more often that not nowadays is "stop using the app because the cloud functionality it relies on has been removed", sadly. That's why I've pretty much stopped using my phone as a smart-phone - pretty much all the USEFUL functionality I enjoyed and relied on has been deleted ...

Google Maps is now useless as a *basic* satnav, MyTracks has been replaced by fitness apps that don't track, about the only apps that are used on my phone (by other people, not me) are battery hogs that kill my stand-by time ... pretty much everything is advert-laden crap that makes it difficult for me to access what I *want* to see rather than what *they* want me to see ...

(A *basic* satnav - one that shows me where I am, and the traffic around me, without demanding to know where I'm going. What makes them think *I* know where I'm going, I'd like to know ... the number of people who advised me "just type your destination into the destination bar", and really could not cope with the reply - in all seriousness - of "what destination?")

Cheers,
Wol

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 25, 2024 15:14 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (13 responses)

> The choice more often that not nowadays is "stop using the app because the cloud functionality it relies on has been removed"

True, except it's not technically "removed" so much as "to keep using the cloud functionality you need a newer client".

> A *basic* satnav - one that shows me where I am, and the traffic around me, without demanding to know where I'm going.

Google maps does that reasonably well; you can turn on the traffic overlay without having a destination.

(And even for navigation, OSM works quite well though of course it has no way to know about current traffic conditions, because OSM is "software", not "service". And it turns out that most folks actually want the latter)

FWIW Google Maps is the only 3rd party non-communication service I use. I self-host everything else, and nearly all of the installed software comes via f-droid..

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 25, 2024 15:49 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

> And it turns out that most folks actually want the latter

Precisely. And there are no free services: if you're not paying for the product, you are the product — it's as simple as that.

Software can be bought once and there are plenty of free software, but services have to be paid for on the ongoing basis. And if you are not paying for services with your money then you have to be prepared to pay with your time.

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 25, 2024 19:16 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (10 responses)

> Google maps does that reasonably well; you can turn on the traffic overlay without having a destination.

You certainly USED to be able to do that. But the way you used to be able to do it has disappeared, and I haven't discovered a new way. I can't get the map full screen any more, and the phone goes to sleep after a minute or so. In other words, it's useless ...

Cheers,
Wol

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 25, 2024 19:34 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

If this article is to be believed you still should be able to do that.

Just use old Google Maps client app.

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 25, 2024 20:36 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (8 responses)

Tap the layers button at the upper right, select "Traffic" under map details

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 26, 2024 11:14 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (7 responses)

Layers button???

I've got the search bar with a mike, something that does nothing, and the circle with my picture. On the old version, I think it had the three horizontal bars in the place of the circle with my picture - they did pretty much the same thing. The old version had "driving mode", which was exactly the same as navigation but didn't navigate.

Now why is it people hate an ever-changing UI again???

Cheers,
Wol

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 26, 2024 11:28 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (6 responses)

That's strange, because official Google help mentions said layers button, shows the picture of that layers button and on my phone it looks exactly like on that page, just an inch or so below your account picture.

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 26, 2024 12:32 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (5 responses)

And we're talking past each other again...

Thanks khim, found the layers icon. But that tells me how to display traffic on the map.

What I used to be able to do, and now cannot, is (a) display the map, and (b) KEEP IT DISPLAYED.

When I start Maps, it displays the map with loads of crud. Way back when, when I selected driving mode, the map went full screen and disabled the screen saver, just like when you're navigating. Now, I can't get the map full screen, and the phone goes to sleep after a minute or so.

So basically I want it to behave just like I'm navigating somewhere, but I'm not navigating, just driving. A lot of the time (a) I know the route well so I don't want the satnav "knowing better", I just want to know what the traffic is like on my chosen route. And (b) when there IS a problem, I can't trust the satnav anyway. Last time that happened it tried to divert an entire two-lane motorway down a single-track country lane !!!

Cheers,
Wol

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 26, 2024 12:56 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

> And we're talking past each other again...

Maybe.

> I just want to know what the traffic is like on my chosen route

That's service, not a software. And you either pay for service or you are the product to be sold to advertisers.

> Way back when, when I selected driving mode, the map went full screen and disabled the screen saver, just like when you're navigating.

You should still be able to do that if you'll find old phone and old version of Google Maps somewhere.

Google maps is sort of exception from the rule that you need latest client to access it.

Not because they want to support old clients, but because they have to: there are some people who actually pay for that service, even if indirectly, via car-makers — these are actual users, they are not a product to be sold to advertisers and thus these people can enjoy stability. You could piggy-back on that.

But yes, it's very much an exception, not rule. Most of the time service providers don't even give an option to keep service access interface stable, not even for $$.

UI and elderly users

Posted Aug 3, 2024 6:33 UTC (Sat) by cpitrat (subscriber, #116459) [Link] (1 responses)

Personally, if I click twice (not necessarily quickly) on the button that centers the position, it zooms, goes from top view to perspective and stays centered and oriented on me. The search bar and band at the bottom keep polluting the screen but are relatively small.

I also have an app called caffeine installed which provides a button in the shortcuts at the top (where you can activate wifi, torch, ...) to prevent the screen from turning off for a given amount of time (I set 1h by default but this can be tuned).

It could be better, but it kind of works.

You can thank telemetry for the disappearance of features. Nobody [1] uses it? Remove the feature[2]

[1] for Google "Nobody" means less than a billion users

[2] in some cases, this is very similar reasoning to not building cycle lanes because there are no bikes on the road. Or not building a bridge over a river because nobody crosses swimming. The feature may not be used because people don't know it exists. Sometimes, users even want it but don't find it. Unfortunately, telemetry is often used poorly ignoring this kind of bias. Another example is A/B testing a change measuring adoption, ignoring the existing user base. Or measuring "user engagement" by how long users spend on the app, meaning a change that confuses them and make something that used to be quick take longer is seen as positive. All this seems stupid and obvious, and yet I've seen teams of experienced engineers and PMs fall into this trap and even discard any concern. The metrics had become the objective for them.

UI and elderly users

Posted Aug 3, 2024 9:09 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> All this seems stupid and obvious, and yet I've seen teams of experienced engineers and PMs fall into this trap and even discard any concern. The metrics had become the objective for them.

Which is why, despite officially working at head office, I spend a lot of time "driving a desk" down the yard. I chat to the people at the sharp end.

I think Barclays have just fallen in to this trap, their "new improved" web site is a PITA of more clicks, less information, harder to read, ... etc etc.

And there's no way to give any feedback! I'd have thought a quick survey for logged in users wouldn't be that hard ...

Cheers,
Wol

UI and elderly users

Posted Aug 9, 2024 22:00 UTC (Fri) by dswegen (guest, #4431) [Link] (1 responses)

I think this will do what you're looking for: You need to add a google maps widget to your home screen that will launch it into drive mode (which is a weirdly obscure way of doing it). So, long press on an empty space on your home screen and bring up the list of available widgets. Scroll down to "Maps" and select "Driving Mode" which should add an icon to the home screen. If you now launch gmaps using this icon it should enter driving mode. Just swipe down the field at the bottom of the screen and it should be full screen.

UI and elderly users

Posted Aug 12, 2024 21:56 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

That looks exactly like what I was looking for. So if it's still available as a widget, why on earth did they delete it from Maps itself? Oh well ...

And you can't find it (well I couldn't) by googling for it :-(

Cheers,
Wol

UI and elderly users

Posted Jul 26, 2024 10:35 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Organic Maps is a nice interface to OSM data, with some routing ability. If you need Google Maps, there is an in F-Droid that acts as a webview wrapper around the web GMaps - GMaps WV - may be sufficient to let you avoid installing Google surveillance apps directly on your device.