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Telemetry

Telemetry

Posted Jul 24, 2024 16:03 UTC (Wed) by braye (subscriber, #162802)
Parent article: Lessons from the death and rebirth of Thunderbird

I was on board until the section about telemetry. They clearly understand that Linux users are the most passionate about computing, and that means caring about what the software on your computer is doing.

Wouldn't it make more sense to make telemetry opt-in on Linux builds, rather than having distros make the (correct) choice to disable their opt-out telemetry? Some is surely better than none, right?


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Telemetry

Posted Jul 24, 2024 16:27 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Wouldn't it make more sense to make telemetry opt-in on Linux builds, rather than having distros make the (correct) choice to disable their opt-out telemetry? Some is surely better than none, right?

It is _worse_ than none, because that "some" is non-representative.

Telemetry

Posted Jul 24, 2024 16:53 UTC (Wed) by Heretic_Blacksheep (guest, #169992) [Link] (3 responses)

"Some is better than none..."

No. It's not. I recommend a good primer on statistics. You have to have enough data to draw meaningful statistics from it. Otherwise your data is skewed and worthless, or it's skewed, worthless, and because you don't realize you're working with a non-representative sample, you draw the wrong conclusions from the statistics you do have. I don't have a problem with properly anonymized and useful telemetry gathering in open source when the process can be audited from the beginning to the end. I do have a problem with people making uninformed accusations about projects with telemetry trying to understand how people, in general, use their software.

Telemetry, by the nature of the beast, should be opt-out. That way those that don't mind need do nothing to contribute, while those that don't want to contribute or have a situation where they can't do so may turn it off. The projects will get enough data to draw meaningful conclusions. You don't get that when it's opt-in (tyranny of the default - most people never change them even in Linux land).

Now, saying that, I'm tempering that with meaningful consent. That is, the user is fully informed of what the telemetry is collecting, how its stored and anonymized, and what the methodology and results of the data collection are. This absolutely not the case with proprietary software as there's no meaningful consent in most such schemes. Open source has the opportunity to be both better than that and still demonstrate how telemetry can benefit those projects both in resource allocation from developers, and benefiting the users - with caveats about relying too heavily on statistics for all decisions.

Telemetry

Posted Jul 24, 2024 22:08 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

> Telemetry, by the nature of the beast, should be opt-out. That way those that don't mind need do nothing to contribute, while those that don't want to contribute or have a situation where they can't do so may turn it off. The projects will get enough data to draw meaningful conclusions. You don't get that when it's opt-in (tyranny of the default - most people never change them even in Linux land).

The problem, in Europe at least (driven by rampant collection of personal data in America) is that that sort of thing by law has to be "informed consent", ie it's opt-in and you need to be told what you're opting in to.

But yes I agree with you about the fact that statistics is complicated, hence the old saw "There are lies, damn lies and statistics". Or as I like to rephrase it - "Statistics tell you how to get from A to B. What they don't tell you is you're all at sea".

Witness my earlier comment about lorry journey times. "We're applying bell-curve maths to a skewed distribution. For what we're doing it doesn't matter but you are getting the odd weird results because it's the wrong maths". (The skew - in MOST cases, wasn't enough to make any real difference. In a couple, it made a BIG difference.)

If you don't know you're applying the wrong maths to the wrong data, the answer won't be right. It won't even be wrong...

Cheers,
Wol

Telemetry

Posted Jul 26, 2024 15:20 UTC (Fri) by immibis (subscriber, #105511) [Link]

If you don't collect personally identifying information, there should be no problem, even in Europe, collecting things like the number of startups per day on Linux.

Telemetry

Posted Jul 25, 2024 10:01 UTC (Thu) by opsec (subscriber, #119360) [Link]

> Telemetry, by the nature of the beast, should be opt-out.

Nothing that is happening on my computers should be opt-out. As a friendly NSA boss once said: We kill on meta-data. So: No meta-data is the only option.


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