BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
When we think of history, we often romanticize it as being born of a sudden stroke of inspiration. But the creation of git shows the far harsher reality of invention: a slowly escalating disagreement over a license; the need for a scrappy backup solution to unblock work; and then continued polishing and iteration through years and years, led not by the inventor, but rather a community.
For those who weren't around in those days, a perusal of the LWN coverage from the time might be of interest too, including:
- Our first mention of BitKeeper in October 1998
- Not quite open source, 1999
- Linus tries out BitKeeper, 2002
- The free software community and proprietary packages, 2002
- The kernel and BitKeeper part ways, 2005
- How Tridge reverse engineered BitKeeper, 2005
- The guts of Git, 2005
...and a lot more for those who care to search for it.
Posted May 24, 2024 19:07 UTC (Fri)
by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958)
[Link] (12 responses)
Posted May 25, 2024 3:02 UTC (Sat)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link] (11 responses)
1. It is not our place to tell Linus what he should or should not work on. If you wanted Git to exist earlier, you should've done it yourself (or paid someone else to do it, which is exactly what some people did, hence BitMover's revenue stream for many years).
TL;DR: Alt-history is a complicated exercise which usually lacks clear winners and losers, if you're doing it right.
Posted May 25, 2024 4:38 UTC (Sat)
by felixfix (subscriber, #242)
[Link] (8 responses)
Wrong. BitMover got some incredible feedback. I bet they even got more sales from the arrangement. They absolutely got something valuable.
Posted May 25, 2024 6:18 UTC (Sat)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted May 25, 2024 6:58 UTC (Sat)
by felixfix (subscriber, #242)
[Link] (6 responses)
I can think of several.
* They did not negotiate a better license which would have avoided having to write git.
* They might have been able to get some sponsorship from BitMover, either $$$ or more workers.
* They surrendered control of their advertising image to BitMover.
They're all hypothetical but plausible.
Posted May 25, 2024 7:25 UTC (Sat)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link] (5 responses)
I'm not trying to argue, I genuinely don't understand how that can be characterized as a cost to the kernel developers.
Posted May 25, 2024 12:28 UTC (Sat)
by felixfix (subscriber, #242)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted May 25, 2024 19:09 UTC (Sat)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted May 25, 2024 19:58 UTC (Sat)
by felixfix (subscriber, #242)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 26, 2024 6:49 UTC (Sun)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 26, 2024 12:56 UTC (Sun)
by felixfix (subscriber, #242)
[Link]
Posted May 27, 2024 9:22 UTC (Mon)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (1 responses)
Given that BitKeeper was Larry's reinvention of TeamWare - the internal DVCS at Sun Microsystems - but with a simple network daemon instead of NFS for the D part - it is indeed guaranteed someone else would have developed something similar. Many many engineers had worked at Sun and used Teamware (it continued to be used for OS/Net, the core Solaris repo, and other repos, internally until after 2005; I assume they switched to Hg after that at some point, as OpenSolaris did, but I don't know).
Again, Bitkeeper was a clone of an internal Sun Microsystems DVCS. Larry worked on an SCCS library that was used in TeamWare, but he did not invent TeamWare.
Posted May 27, 2024 10:24 UTC (Mon)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
Posted May 24, 2024 19:19 UTC (Fri)
by jra (subscriber, #55261)
[Link] (100 responses)
"Andrew Tridgell, forced the issue when he violated the license and reverse-engineered BitKeeper "
Tridge did *NOT* reverse-engineer BitKeeper, and never used the tool in any way.
Posted May 24, 2024 19:36 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (97 responses)
He most definitely did. You are even adding comment to the article that includes appropriate link The question is not whether he violated the license (he most definitely did), the question is what could have made that a crime if he never actually used any tools that asked him to accept that license in the first place.
Posted May 24, 2024 19:46 UTC (Fri)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (58 responses)
If he never used the client, where's the evidence that he agreed to the license that you claim he violated?
Posted May 24, 2024 21:03 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (57 responses)
You don't need to agree to the terms of the license to violate them. You need to agree to them for that to become a crime.
Posted May 24, 2024 21:07 UTC (Fri)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (56 responses)
But you need to USE the product.
Posted May 24, 2024 21:31 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (55 responses)
Sure. And he did. He, most definitely, connected to Bitmover servers, he told us as much explicitly. Whether such use also needs a license is good question. Court never decided one way or another, but answer is very unobvious. Look on the real reason Google may scrape the web sites… as court have decided it has an implied license. Whether Andrew have such an implied license and whether he even needs such an implied license to download something from the Bitmover site is very big question and it was never answered.
Posted May 24, 2024 21:48 UTC (Fri)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (40 responses)
Posted May 24, 2024 22:15 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (22 responses)
Unusual, but not impossible. If, after refusing to sign an NDA, you went into place where normally you are only admitted after signing an NDA by getting special permission from CEO and then used the fact that other people have no idea that you haven't signed it to reveal secret information… the question of legality of what you did would be raised and the question of that you are getting classified information that normally requires an NDA using ignorance of someone would definitely be raised. No. That was precisely about access. HTTP protocol was designed with the ability to prevent Googlebot from accessing the web site. And since Field refused to use that ability Google got it's implied license. BitKeeper protocol haven't included such ability, at least publicly, and the question of whether the fact that after connection to it one may see the prompt and interact with it is enough to give you an implied license is very much an open quesion.
Posted May 24, 2024 22:23 UTC (Fri)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (21 responses)
No, it is not.
if you click a hyperlink, do you first check whether you have a "license"?
Posted May 24, 2024 22:45 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (20 responses)
It absolute was copyrighted by BitMover. That's called copyright in compilation: individual works had copyrights, sure, but meta-information that BitMover possessed need separate license and said license wan't grated to anyone AFAIK. That separation was, initially, designed to prevent free copying of books that included, originally, in public domain, but which wasn't easy to collect (think Grimms' Fairy Tales), but today it covers databases which include someone else's copyright works. BitMover was, most definitely, in the possession of such database and Andrew felt the need to have that information (otherwise why bother copying it at all?) — yet he had no license. If I just click on one link then no, if my plan is to scrape the whole web site, then sure, I need to do that. Here's LWN license, if I'm not Mail.RU bot and not GPTBot then I have that permission.
Posted May 24, 2024 22:53 UTC (Fri)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (18 responses)
Not needed.
From your link:
>Copyright does not exist when content is compiled without creativity
It is a transmission protocol.
Posted May 24, 2024 23:12 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (17 responses)
It's transmission protocol for the metadata that BitMover allegedly owned. Information contained in such metadata, most definitely, involves high level of creativity, or else RedHat wouldn't have limited it to only paying customers of RHEL. And the question of whether Linux kernel developers passed the right for such metadata to BitMover or not was never answered. But it's most definitely not something “uncreative”, if it would have been “uncreative” then there would have been no need to pull it from BitMover servers, Andrew should have been able to recreate it without touching them.
Posted May 24, 2024 23:21 UTC (Fri)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (16 responses)
It is as creative as downloading a file via FTP.
Posted May 24, 2024 23:26 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (15 responses)
The process of transmitting metadata is not creative, of course. But actual metadata (information about who added which lines of code to kernel and in what sequence, e.g.) is creative. The only question was who owned such metadata, BitMover or individual contributors (the ones who actually accepted the BitKeeper license and thus, according, to Larry, transferred right for such metadata to BitMover) — and it was never court-decided. But it's most definitely creative and valuable, or else Andrew Tridgell wouldn't have bothered to [try to] access it.
Posted May 25, 2024 0:34 UTC (Sat)
by linuxrocks123 (subscriber, #34648)
[Link] (13 responses)
Posted May 25, 2024 12:00 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (12 responses)
Server doesn't send you anything if you don't send it anything, sorry. It doesn't matter if you steal something from factory personally or give the worker fake identity to bring something to you, it's theft in both cases. Similarly here.
Posted May 25, 2024 12:28 UTC (Sat)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (11 responses)
So? The copyrighted tool that required the license agreement was not used to make the request.
>it's theft in both cases. Similarly here.
Not at all. Nothing was stolen. The bk tool was not used. The license was not in effect and not needed.
Posted May 25, 2024 12:46 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (10 responses)
You don't need any tool to conduct copyright violation. Just reciting something publicly would require a license. Yes. You always need a license to copy something. Even to just copy program from your SSD or HDD to memory you need a license. If would be tedious to get one each time you want to run a program thus there are notion of implied license: license to do something to legally owned copyrighed work which is needed to meaningfully use it. It only happens if there is strong eveidence that copyright owner intended copyrighted work to be used in that fashion. And there are zero evidence that BirMover inteded their servers to be used with unofficial clients and plenty of evidence to contrary. Which is an instant copyright violation in the absence of license. Sorry, but that's how copyright works.
Posted May 25, 2024 13:03 UTC (Sat)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (6 responses)
There is no copyrightable work, apart from the GPL'ed kernel, in the transferred data.
>It only happens if there is strong eveidence that copyright owner intended copyrighted
Talking to a public service does not need a copyright license. That is just ridiculous.
Posted May 25, 2024 13:42 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (5 responses)
Why do you ignore central part again and again? Intent matter. Legislation doesn't even try to answer the question of whether talking to a public service requires license or not! Web Spider may send the exact same packets my browser sends, but Intent would be different and the decisions, from the law POV, may be different, too! On the contrary: it's normal and obvious. To every normal person, but, for some reason, not for technogeeks. If Andrew would have send random packets to random servers on the internet with the Intent of doing some latency research and misconfigured server would have sent to him whole Library of Congress — it's on them. If Andrew sends specifically selected packets designed to authorize the making of
another copy of copyrighted material — it's on Andrew. You couldn't say whether talking to public server is legal or illegal without first discussing the reason for that communication. Evidence of what? Of the fact that you need a license to make a copy of copyrighted material? Just look on the copyright law and look on all these numerous “Limitations on exclusive rights”. Exceptions to do things like a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner that you are permitted to do without explicit permission to make an additional copy or adaptation wouldn't be even needed if it were legal to make copies willy-nilly in general. Why the heck you try to find answer to the question whether some thing that your computer does is legal is not while entirely excluding yourself from the equation? Computer is just a tool, what you do with computer matters, not what computer does! Computer doesn't have a free will (at least law believes so).
Posted May 25, 2024 13:55 UTC (Sat)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (4 responses)
(1) Your link to "Intent" is for *criminal* acts, not civil torts.
Posted May 25, 2024 14:21 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (3 responses)
Every copy of copyrighted material is a copyright infingement without a license (or special-case in the law). Sometimes it's subtle (e.g. browser can cache content if there are no And for some reason lots of people in that discussion assert that random servers attached to public internet are exception to that rule… What? Why? How?
Posted May 25, 2024 14:29 UTC (Sat)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
Thank you for conceding that if something cannot be copyrighted, then copyright infringement cannot occur.
Posted May 26, 2024 0:48 UTC (Sun)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link]
And every bit of the kernel code on the Bitkeeper server was covered by GPL2.
Posted May 26, 2024 21:47 UTC (Sun)
by dvdeug (guest, #10998)
[Link]
The question would be if a browser can cache content if there is a Cache-Control: no-store line. I'd expect the answer would be yes, that "Cache-Control: no-store" has no legal effect and anything you can download you can cache. (I could argue from the "Betamax case", for example.) I'm pretty sure no one can produce a court decision one way or the other.
> random servers attached to public internet are exception to that rule… What? Why? How?
There is a case where a company made money suing downloaders of its NSFW films uploaded to The Pirate Bay. They're now in jail, because they uploaded their own films to The Pirate Bay, and suing people for downloading stuff you made available on The Pirate Bay was considered fraud. If someone asks a server for a file via the public internet, and the server gives them that file, the presumed intent of the people who set up that server was to make the file the available. There's a bunch of hacking laws and computer trespass laws that complicate things, and I can't argue in this specific case, but if you put it online, and there's no password or encryption or the like, it's fair game.
Posted May 27, 2024 9:25 UTC (Mon)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (2 responses)
He connected to a public server, and made a query. The *server* sent him the copyrighted material, over a private connection.
Where is the public recitation?
Posted May 27, 2024 10:22 UTC (Mon)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 27, 2024 10:53 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
Reverse-engineering clause is, indeed, unenforceable because law includes explicit permission to do reverse-engineering for interoperability purposes. What is enforceable is non-competing clause. In fact Russia law (which I refered to, back then, because US law got that exception later) even explicitly says the following: “информация, полученная в результате декомпилирования, может использоваться лишь для достижения способности к взаимодействию независимо разработанной программы для ЭВМ с другими программами, не может передаваться иным лицам, за исключением случаев, когда это необходимо для достижения способности к взаимодействию независимо разработанной программы для ЭВМ с другими программами, а также не может использоваться для разработки программы для ЭВМ, по своему виду существенно схожей с декомпилируемой программой для ЭВМ, или для осуществления другого действия, нарушающего исключительное право на программу для ЭВМ” (translation: information obtained as a result of decompilation can only be used to achieve the ability to interact with an independently developed computer program with other programs, and cannot be transferred to other persons, except in cases where this is necessary to achieve the ability to interact with an independently developed computer program with other programs, and also cannot be used to develop a computer program that is substantially similar in appearance to the decompiled computer program, or to carry out other actions that violate the exclusive right to a computer program, emphasis mine). Weirdly, if you don't straight-out decompile a program then other means are perfectly acceptable, but again, it all is contingent on being in possession of a license… and if even law itself talks about non-competing rules then we may easily assume that they are perfectly legal to have in a license.
Posted May 26, 2024 15:08 UTC (Sun)
by dvdeug (guest, #10998)
[Link]
That doesn't follow. Again, Feist v. Rural; Feist copied Rural's phonebook, but it wasn't infringement, because the information was not creative. Data about who accessed what when is not copyrightable; it's simple facts, showing no hand of the human author.
Posted May 26, 2024 15:03 UTC (Sun)
by dvdeug (guest, #10998)
[Link]
As for violating a license you haven't agreed to, the concept is weird. You are under no obligation to care about a license you haven't agreed to, so "violating" it is a really heavy phrase for a completely irrelevant activity.
Posted May 24, 2024 22:54 UTC (Fri)
by Heretic_Blacksheep (guest, #169992)
[Link] (16 responses)
As far as the ToS for servers is applied, again it's not as black and white as people seem to think. Mere violation of a service agreement isn't a criminal act under the CFAA.** Generally speaking, without violating the DMCA, accessing a publicly accessible service for research purposes (like for interop) isn't necessarily criminally forbidden regardless of what the ToS agreement might state. This is especially true if the license of the content accessed is permissive to begin with. (Ex: testing the website functionality in which GPL'd software is being accessed but avoiding unlicensed content). Contracts (and ToSes) that contain clauses that contradict the law can't resort to legal remedies for enforcement of those clauses.
*consideration: goods, services, or currency used as a medium of exchange
** Sandvig vs. Barr 451 F.Supp.3d 73 (2020) & Van Buren vs. United States (2021)
^^ I'm discussing US law. Different countries have different ways of doing things. As in all things in law caveats and provisos apply. I'm deliberately over simplifying.
Posted May 24, 2024 23:20 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (15 responses)
The question was always about metadata. If it wouldn't have been valuable then nobody would have tried to access it. And it's copyright is separate from copyright for actual kernel code. But who owned that copyright? Larry asserted that copyright for that data was passed to BitMover, while Andrew asserted that he never passed such copyright and yet BitMover asserted that it owns information about Andrew submissions, too. That part would have been very messy if it would have ever reached the court, but I wouldn't even try to predict who would have been declared winner there.
Posted May 25, 2024 1:30 UTC (Sat)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (5 responses)
So who *authored* the metadata? [1]
> Larry asserted that copyright for that data was passed to BitMover
So you're seriously asserting that if Linus or whomever ran a "bitkeeper export", BitMover would own the patch files it produced?
> That part would have been very messy if it would have ever reached the court, but I wouldn't even try to predict who would have been declared winner there.
Copyright assignment requires a formal contract. And, I might add that *enforcing* copyright requires the work to be formally registered.
...I should also note that "Person X committed changeset Y on date Z" is a _fact_, and those are not copyrightable (in the US).
[1] Ie the fundamental requirement for copyright protection (in the US)
Posted May 25, 2024 12:14 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (4 responses)
Not patch files theselves, but information about how they were laid out. Please take a look, once more, on this: In the case of compilation copyright, the compiler does not receive copyright in the underlying material, but only in the selection, coordination, or arrangement of that material. That's precisely and exactly what BitMover did, isn't it? The people that used BitKeeper client, the official one, had one. Not for the last century or so in most countries. Not since 1989 in US. You need registration for statutory damages, though. Facts are not copyrightable, yet database with facts is copyrightable. I know that it's a hard concept to grasp for some, but that's how copyright works. To claim “that it's all just facts and I have no violated anything” you would have to prove how you independently discovered and collected these facts (or, at least could have done that). But in fact the exact opposite happened, thus it wouldn't work in that case.
Posted May 25, 2024 12:22 UTC (Sat)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link]
No, it isn't. Not at all.
Posted May 25, 2024 14:27 UTC (Sat)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (2 responses)
(0) You do realize you're making the claim that the author of "diff" has a copyright claim over its output?
(1) and (2) are among the reasons why there used to be competing phone books before the Internet and migration away from landlines made them obsolete. The underlying factual data isn't copyrightable, and there's also nothing particularly novel about alphabetically (and geographically) sorting said data.
> You need registration for statutory damages, though.
...meaning you can only claim *actual* damages. What are those alleged to be, in this instance?
Posted May 25, 2024 14:54 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
Author of diff might have a copyright over it's output, yes. Not always but in some cases, yes. If files that you have are sufficiently different and different algorithms that you may use produce sufficiently different results and if your picked the one output that is creative enough… yes, that may happen. There's a catch, though: when you have situation of 2000 lines of code and diff with +1000, -1000 stats… at this point such diff may become copyrightable yet it's usually becomes useless: changes are just too big that it's more-less impossible to understand what happens in that one-step diff. But… that's exactly when you would want to have sequence of patches which would help if you understand what have happened! And if that diff was “creative enough” then that series of patches may also be “creative enough”. Easily. That part is easily covered: there were thousands of humans working on that. And license of BitKeeper was, apparently, sufficiently draconian that they passed copyright on that to BitMover. Very hard to say whether that argument would hold without actually going to court, but this is also a base that underpins GPL (all versions) thus I wouldn't easily dismiss it. But that separation of messy and copyrightable diff into series of digestable patches is both novel and creative… and the whole reason Andrew wrote his client. We would never know without actual court case. But we know that BitMover also sold commercial client and server. If anyone ever used that one to work with Linux kernel (and chances are high that it's actually the case because some companies may not like “don't piss off Larry license”) then replacement of these with Andrew client would have immediately caused actual damages from copyright infringement.
Posted May 25, 2024 17:39 UTC (Sat)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
Uh, no. That "messy and copyrightable diff" was a creation of the original patch/changeset authors, not Bitkeeper, which merely transformed it twice. -- First into its internal representation, and then into a mechanically/functionally equivalent (if not outright identical) diffs.
Also, there is only one meaningful way to aggregate/combine the set of diffs between two arbitrary points in time (eg 2.6.9 ... 2.6.10) -- sequentially.
Meanwhile. Let's say for sake of argument that your completely-devoid-of-legal-support theory is in fact accurate, and that these diffs produced by bitkeeper are sufficiently creative to quality for their own copyright protection. The problem with that is that these diffs (and this other nebulous "metadata") are unquestionably derived from the original author's code, which is also unquestionably covered by copyright -- which means that absent explicit permission (be it in law or from the copyright holder) to the contrary, Bitkeeper has no legal right to use the original to create new derived works.
But wait, the Bitkeeper license gives them that right! The problem with that argument is that it only folks who agreed to the bitkeeper license. Tridge (and I, incidently) have code in bitkeeper-era Linux and never agreed to those license terms -- which means Bitkeeper hasn't been granted that license. Similarly, no bitkeeper user (including and especially Torvalds) has the right to sublicense anyone else's code (absent an explicit agreement, which to my knowledge, has never happened)
But wait, the GPLv2 means that I gave Linus permission, and down the line Bitkeeper permission to create derived works from my code! But since the original work is GPLv2, the derived works (including these supposedly "original and creative" diffs) must also be GPLv2, or Linus and especially Bitkeeper have themselves have infringed upon *my* copyright.
So tl;dr: If the metadata isn't copyrightable, Bitmover has no legal grounds to demand concessions from folks trying to copy it. If it is copyrightable, then it is necessarily derived from the original sources, and they are bound by the original authors' license terms, and it has to be GPLv2 in the case of the Linux kernel. Either way, Bitmover doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.
Posted May 25, 2024 1:44 UTC (Sat)
by npws (subscriber, #168248)
[Link] (8 responses)
That is just utter nonsense, no matter how many times you are repeating it. Facts are not copyrightable. Machines can not create copyrightable content. Game over.
Posted May 25, 2024 12:26 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (7 responses)
Individual facts are not copyrightable, collections of facts, databases are copyrightable. That wasn't tested in court, but even then it's not what was discussed in that case. Andrew could have had the case for only downloading his own patches and, somehow, ignoring all others, but that wasn't even remotely close to what happened there. The question is not in how many times something is repeated but in how much evidence your bring to the table. So far we have few guys who bring references to law, conventions, court cases and “peanut gallery” that screams out of the top of their lungs that it's all nonsense and we should just ignore all that and go with “gut feelings”. Thankfully, for better and for worse, courts don't go with “gut feelings”. That's why even officially appointed jury is only ever allowed to decide things about finding the facts or picking between options that are all allowed by law, they are not competent to judge about law. I'm not a lawer, too, and even if I were I wouldn't be able to state for sure whether certain things are true or not (that's why court system exists, it's not enough to just read the law to predict the outcome of court case), but at least I bring the evidence and references. You bring nothing except your emotions.
Posted May 25, 2024 12:34 UTC (Sat)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link]
Right. You should start with that. And no, the Wikipedia reference is not evidence in favor of your argument.
If I would claim that the moon was made from cheese, then it would *not* be your responsibility to bring evidence to the table. It would be my responsibility. And unless I would actually bring evidence, you would have the full right to laugh at me.
Posted May 25, 2024 14:24 UTC (Sat)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link] (4 responses)
https://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html
It's not so simple as "database compilations are copyrightable" They MAY be copyrightable, but they may not. From that link:
"In the case of Feist Publications, Inc. v. Rural Telephone Service Company, Inc., the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a compilation work such as a database must contain a minimum level of creativity in order to be protectable under the Copyright Act."
and "According to the Supreme Court, a compilation is not copyrightable per se, but is copyrightable only if its facts have been "selected, coordinated, or arranged in such a way that the resulting work as a whole constitutes an original work of authorship," citing the definition of a compilation in 17 U.S.C. §101. According to the Supreme Court, the statute envisions that some ways of selecting, coordinating, and arranging data are not sufficiently original to trigger copyright protection. "
Even more - just copying the data may not be a violation: "As a result of the Supreme Court's holding in Feist, it is clear that not all databases are protected by copyright law as compilations. In order to be protected, the database must be original in its selection, coordination, and arrangement. The mere alphabetic arrangement of data is not original enough for protection by copyright law unless there is some originality in the selection or coordination of the data. In addition, Feist makes it clear that even if a database is protected by copyright law as an original work, this protection will not prevent an individual from extracting factual data from the database (short of copying the selection and arrangement of the database as a whole)."
Regarding the metadata itself - again, it is only copyrightable to the extent it's original & creative. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/102 and https://www.uspto.gov/ip-policy/copyright-policy/copyrigh... - note the exclusions. From the second link -
Did Bitkeeper's metadata meet that "minimum level of creativity"? Was "selection, coordination, and arrangement" original in Bitkeeper? Did Bitkeeper's responses provide for "copying the selection and arrangement of the database as a whole"? I don't know. As far as I can tell, these questions were never tested in court (which is the place where such a test could be made).
Note - I am not a lawyer. Do not take above as legal advice.
Posted May 25, 2024 14:37 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (3 responses)
They weren't tested in court, but the chances are high they would have withstood all these tests. Indeed: the whole reason Andrew Tridgell wanted to have separate client without draconian license was an attempt to get access to something that he felt was valuable and couldn't be obtained via different venues (e.g. via CVS mirror that BitMover offered). If something is desirable and couldn't be easily recreated and you jump through hoops to get it… then chances are high that it's copyrightable, too.
Posted May 25, 2024 15:03 UTC (Sat)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link] (2 responses)
Unless you are a lawyer, particularly one specializing in copyright law, your opinion on the "chances" has as value as mine - i.e. none. What matters is what the courts think - and, since no lawsuit was ever filed, we'll never know.
"If something is desirable and couldn't be easily recreated and you jump through hoops to get it… then chances are high that it's copyrightable, too."
Nope. Read that link I gave to the Feist decision. Sweat of the brow does NOT mean creativity in terms of copyright. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's copyrightable. Just because it's easy doesn't mean it's NOT copyrightable.
I suspect none of us here (certainly me) are lawyers, much less copyright lawyers. As such, I'll defer my opinion to those with that legal expertise.
Posted May 25, 2024 15:13 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
There are different means of hard: it may be hard because it's tedious, or it may be hard because it's non-trivial. And when someone splits 90'000 lines of code in 2500 patches it's both. The ones with legal expertise would ask for money and would give you something that's entirely useless except if you actually plan to go to court. Before that happens paralegal work have to happen.
Posted May 25, 2024 17:54 UTC (Sat)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link]
And again, just because it's hard work doesn't mean it's copyrightable. See the link on Feist. It took a lot of work to build telephone books. But, according to the US Supreme Court, they, as collections of facts, are NOT copyrighted.
The ones who know how much effort and of what type) went into the database design in Bitkeeper (as opposed to the design of the software itself) is the people at Bitmover, the owner of Bitkeeper. They are the ones who could make any case that their database design or metadata are copyrightable. They would have to bring a case and argue (and be opposed by the other side) their stance. Ultimately, the judge would make a ruling, based on facts & law, as informed by their training, experience, and precedent. That judgement could be appealed, with each step up to the Supreme Court making their judgement, or choosing not to hear the case & letting the lower court ruling stand.
For those of us who are not associated with Bitmover in any way, (nor Tridge on the other side, for his expertise in what he did), this is all speculation by people who have no actual knowledge of the circumstances, myself included. Our opinions are worth what it costs to breath air.
And regarding legal expertise -thanks for reminding me of judges. Ultimately, any determination of copyright or license violations would be via a court judgement. Without such, again, this is all speculation by people who, at least in my case, are not qualified to render an informed opinion.
For the above reasons, I'd be leery about making profound pronouncements about the chances of any legal judgement (was copyright involved or not, who held copyright, what kind of copyright, how much originality was there in what, was any copyright violated, and a bunch of other questions I'm probably not smart enough on the subject to know they should be asked) on any case, which was never brought.
Having said that, there are many lawyers who do offer advice - but it's not binding. That requires someone with standing (i.e. McVoy or Tridge) to start a court case.
Example of lawyer who provides informed opinion - Popehat (Ken White): https://www.popehat.com/. I don't think he's ever talked about this case, and, as he's not a judge issuing judgement on a specific case, his opinion is not binding (but it would be informed, unlike mine)
US operates under common law (inherited from Great Britain). Laws are made by Congress, signed by the President. However, under common law, courts (with the Supreme Court at the top of the pyramid) help fill in the application of the laws in specific cases, and thus create case law that provides guidance to future judges. Example: The US Constitution guarantees people in the US due process. What is due process? that's been a subject of debate in the courts since this country was founded.
Posted May 27, 2024 9:10 UTC (Mon)
by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958)
[Link]
Yes. I don't know why you are bringing this up since you firmly belong in the 2nd category here.
Posted May 24, 2024 21:51 UTC (Fri)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (12 responses)
Do you have a license to connect to the lwn.net servers?
Posted May 24, 2024 22:35 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (11 responses)
Sure. But LWN uses protocol which was designed and used by the World-Wide Web global information initiative since 1990 and follows appropriate conventions, etc. Since the main purpose of such web server is to be publicly accessed (it's literally designed for that!) I have the right to access it. That's called an implied license: if I buy an audio CD then it may say “all rights reserved”, but it's designed to be played on a CD player thus natural assumption would be that in spite of that test I'm permitted to do that. Similarly with web sites. But BitMover site haven't used well-known protocol designed to be used by third-party applicatins, now did it? And Andrew haven't owned said server (this is what grants SAMBA an implied license to access Windows Server: this thingie is sold as server, as something you may use to store files… and if your OS doesn't have any official means of doing that then you may need to write some program to access such servers). So… what gave him the right to access it? Fact that after he connected and typed help server responded? Sure, that strongly hints that said server was designed to be accessed… but is it enough to grant Andrew implied license or not? No one knows. Only court may decide.
Posted May 24, 2024 22:47 UTC (Fri)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (6 responses)
The fact that it was on the public Internet without any authentication or any other restriction.
Do you have a license to resolve lwn.net via DNS?
Posted May 25, 2024 12:29 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (5 responses)
Sure. There's an implied license since there are published specification that explains what DNS is, how it works and how it's supposed to be used. There are nothing of the sort for BitKeeper.
Posted May 25, 2024 12:41 UTC (Sat)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (4 responses)
Which law exactly makes it illegal for me to send a packet to your public server?
Posted May 25, 2024 13:16 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (3 responses)
Convention, law, or court case, please. Convention, law or court case, please. Intent. You are ignoring central part of legislation system. Most technogeeks do, for some reason. It's critical part of the law enforcement and court processings — yet, somehow, lots of technogeeks try to establish their right to do something while ignoring it. You have an agreement with BitMover to do a penetration testing and send various packets to their server. Is it legal? Absolutely. Even if your agreement never mention copyright at all. You find out that some of these packets bring you source code of BitKeeper and collect them. Is it legal? Absolutely not! That's obviously beyond your agreement. Note how the exact same packets were sent and received yet in one case they were legal and in the other case they were illegal. Intent matters. It's central part of law and court cases. And you want to ignore it. How and why? Because every copy must be accomplished with license. Even copy that you make when you run the program by copying it from HDD to memory. If you Intent is lawful — you get an implied license. If your Intent is now lawful — that's copyright violation.
Posted May 25, 2024 13:26 UTC (Sat)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (2 responses)
That is a straw man. Nobody said this.
> Intent matters. It's central part of law and court cases.
No. BitMover put the server onto the public internet and even provided a human readable interface.
>Convention, law, or court case, please.
It's your turn.
> Because every copy must be accomplished with license.
The transferred data is the kernel repository plus a little bit of human readable protocol that is both openly accessible intentionally put into the internet by BitMover.
> Even copy that you make when you run the program by copying it from HDD to memory.
Nah. You already explained why this does not require an explicit license.
Posted May 25, 2024 13:54 UTC (Sat)
by jake (editor, #205)
[Link]
This sub-thread looks like it ran its course long ago. No minds are being changed here, and the comments have become rather repetitive. That goes for everyone participating, btw ...
can we move on, please?
jake
Posted May 25, 2024 13:55 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
No. Still no law, convention or court case. Pathehtic. Still no law, convention or court case. Pathehtic. It doesn't require explicit license and, in recent time it doesn't even require any license but only because US copyright law was finally amended to include the following permission in §117: you don't need a license if you are creating a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner.
As you can see even such “trivial and obvious” act requires an implied license or law amendment. Mea culpa: I'm not a US citizen and missed the fact that US now, too, declared that this case is not a case of “implied license”, but is a restriction of the copyright now codified directly into law. But that's even better for my argument, isn't it? Because you told us many “trivial and obvious” things that would make it legal for Andrew to do what he did without even a single link to law, convention or court case that would make these “trivial and obvious” things legal. Pathehtic.
Posted May 26, 2024 0:32 UTC (Sun)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link] (3 responses)
No idea what you mean by this - Trigdell didn't own a SMB server, or a Windows machine. He packet sniffed & reversed engineered the protocol, with some help from SMB documentation - https://www.samba.org/samba/docs/SambaIntro.html
Very similar to what he did with the Bitkeeper protocol (minus the documentation).
"Sure, that strongly hints that said server was designed to be accessed… but is it enough to grant Andrew implied license or not? No one knows. Only court may decide."
Which is what I've been saying - regardless of our individual opinions, until a court rules on a case in front of it (which, in this case would be either Larry McVoy or Andrew Trigdell starting a case), it's a gray area, and, as I doubt any of us will be lawyers for one of them in a court case on this (especially not me, without considerable more schooling), our opinions are ultimately not relevant.
Posted May 26, 2024 10:56 UTC (Sun)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (2 responses)
And minus the permission to access the machine. Something that flies right over the head of technogeeks but is critical and easy to understand to every normal person. Everything is, to some degree, a gray area, till decided by court. But there are different shades of gray. Everyone loves to bring that idea that people are, somehow, entitled to do a reverse engineering and thus Andrew could ignore the license, connect to server in question and start hacking, but if you actually open the papers and read them you'll see that the whole thing starts like this: a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may <do a lot of things:gt;. So… where that lawfully obtained right to connect to BitMover servers originates, hmm? What gives Andrew or anyone else that right? If not an explicit license (which was pretty blatantly violated) then what? One may argue that the fact that you may connect to server, type
Posted May 26, 2024 12:14 UTC (Sun)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link]
It was a public server.
Do you realize that everybody disagrees with you and yet you fail to provide evidence that a "license" is required to access a public server?
Posted May 26, 2024 12:35 UTC (Sun)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link]
Interesting question. As I read 1201 more (note, IANAL, consult a lawyer for legal advice), it talks often about "circumvent a technological measure" which Wex give details at
Does "not publishing the query terms that work" constitute "a technological measure?" Especially if one of the terms is "help" which then tells you what commands are available.
"So… where that lawfully obtained right to connect to BitMover servers originates, hmm? What gives Andrew or anyone else that right? If not an explicit license (which was pretty blatantly violated) then what?"
Good questions - but asking the questions doesn't mean the answers are what you think they are.
"Something that flies right over the head of technogeeks but is critical and easy to understand to every normal person."
And in law, what a "normal person" understands may not be right (depends on law & circumstances). Maybe the "technogeeks" understand there's nuances in the law, due to exact facts & circumstances, and interactions of laws, and previous case law..
Turns out copyright isn't so black and white (again). And sometimes flimsy arguments are actually correct.
Posted May 27, 2024 9:23 UTC (Mon)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
Posted May 24, 2024 20:35 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (27 responses)
Violating a license is never a crime. It's purely a civil matter, unless you also do something else like violating copyright that might bring in criminal jurisdiction.
Posted May 24, 2024 21:20 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (24 responses)
Absolutely, but where in the phrase Andrew Tridgell, forced the issue when he violated the license and reverse-engineered BitKeeper have you found the word “crime”? AFAIK no one ever blamed Andrew for doing something that may send him to a jail, but the fact remains: Andrew violated the don't piss off Larry license and the whole community was punished when said license was revoked. Critically, for the whole story, are two facts:
And the phrase that jra objects to simply cleanly states #2 fact, nothing else. Not every agreement could or should be enforced in court yet that doesn't mean violations of these agreements have no repercussions. Andrew never agreed to the terms of license because he haven't liked them but he, most definitely, knew what these terms are all about, stink that Larry raised about “great gift” license in different places was large enough for that to be more-or-less impossible.
Posted May 24, 2024 21:23 UTC (Fri)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (18 responses)
Posted May 24, 2024 21:44 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (17 responses)
Sure, but such use also needs a license. Explicit, or implicit or he may try to claim that he exercised his fair use rights… but all these things are very much grey area which would need court decision (which would never happen now) to say whether Andrew needed an explicit license from BitMover to do what he did or not. Look on how Google got it's implied license, it all highs on the existence of BitMover never implied that it's Ok to access it's servers via anything other than official client, quite the opposite, in fact… but without court decisions we would never actually know whether what Andrew did even needed a license! And such court process is very unlikely to happen now. And, again, article never said that what Anrew did was legal or illegal, it just claimed that he violated a license. Which he, most definitely, did.
Posted May 24, 2024 22:11 UTC (Fri)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (9 responses)
Why would it?
Posted May 24, 2024 22:50 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (8 responses)
Because if you take copyrighted materials from someone's else's servers and copy it to your computer then such use requires a license. Explicit or implied. Usually it's implied, but that doesn't mean it's not license or that it's not needed.
Posted May 24, 2024 22:55 UTC (Fri)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (7 responses)
The Kernel is GPL2, ya know?
Posted May 24, 2024 23:13 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted May 25, 2024 12:25 UTC (Sat)
by tuna (guest, #44480)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted May 25, 2024 12:35 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (4 responses)
You argue… on what basis, precisely? Copyright in compilation exists precisely to ensure that copyright for metainformation exists separately from copyright for kernel source. And “mere aggregation” implies that it's something that can be easily collected by someone else. Also, you have the exact same situation that is happening today: RHEL kernel sources. Go to the court, prove that you have the right to have the because they are “derived works” of kernel, make IBM publish them… then you would have a case. I'll wish you luck because that would, obviously, never happen.
Posted May 25, 2024 17:56 UTC (Sat)
by tuna (guest, #44480)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 25, 2024 18:08 UTC (Sat)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 26, 2024 8:48 UTC (Sun)
by tuna (guest, #44480)
[Link]
Posted May 25, 2024 23:30 UTC (Sat)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link]
It appears metadata, assuming it's original and creative works sufficient for copyright, would be protected by their own copyright by the writer/developer.
IANAL, my reading of the decisions.
Posted May 25, 2024 19:30 UTC (Sat)
by chris_se (subscriber, #99706)
[Link] (6 responses)
This means that reverse engineering the protocol was from a legal perspective perfectly acceptable (even in terms of just civil liability), and Andrew Tridgell did nothing wrong here.
Conversely, it was obviously also perfectly within BitMover's rights to cancel the license they gave to Linus Torvalds and others in response to that.
> Look on how Google got it's implied license, it all highs on the existence of robots.txt.
But the crawling itself was never the issue (as long as it wasn't a DoS), but the fact that Google reproduced parts of the such gathered material themselves. You could also argue the same principle here, in that accessing itself was OK, but using that information to write the other software wasn't (again assuming that copyright does indeed apply for the protocol, which I don't agree with, but playing devil's advocate), but the major difference here is the explicit exception in copyright law for reverse engineering, which is much more specific and concrete than the fair use doctrine that Google used to successfully defend their case. Fair use is always a complicated balancing act between competing interests, whereas the reverse engineering exception is far less ambiguous.
Posted May 25, 2024 23:49 UTC (Sat)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link] (1 responses)
Copyright office report on it (among other things regarding exemptions) - https://www.copyright.gov/policy/1201/section-1201-full-r... (the 1201f section starts on page 15)
Cornell has some commentary on Wex, their on-line legal dictionary & legal encyclopedia: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/reverse_engineering
1201f concerns exemption from copyright for purposes of reverse engineering to enable interoperability. There's caveats & lots of legal language that I'm not qualified to comment on, but there is exemptions to copyright (which is what 17 USC 1201 is about - not only reverse engineering, but other exemptions).
Note 17 USC 111 - 115 also have limitations. I haven't gone through the rest of 17 USC to see any other exemptions. But it turns out Copyright (in the US) is not a blanket protection.
PS: To bad PJ's not still running Groklaw (where I got started on this stuff). http://www.groklaw.net/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groklaw I'm glad the Library of Congress decided to archive it, so it will stay around (read towards the bottom of the Wikipedia article). Groklaw's also where I learned "it depends" is a useful phrase to keep in mind anytime you talk about legal issues, including copyright.
Posted May 26, 2024 7:07 UTC (Sun)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link]
Annoyingly, section 117 refers to the "the owner of a copy of a computer program," which is rather useless since much proprietary software is "licensed and not sold" (there is no FOSS which requires the exception in the first place, because it's redundant to or weaker than freedoms 0 and 2). I don't think any court has had an opportunity to rule on whether EULAs can so easily opt out of this section of title 17, or if "owner" has a more expansive meaning. The same problem applies to section 109, which is arguably a bigger deal in practice (very few proprietary EULAs try to prohibit executing an unmodified binary which you have lawfully purchased, but almost every EULA disclaims first sale).
Posted May 26, 2024 10:44 UTC (Sun)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (3 responses)
Where does it say that? I've read that assertion approximately bazillion times, but have never seen anything that permits you to connect to unknown server using an unknown protocol when you don't have a license to connect to it. When you are using known protocol (like SMTP or HTTP) you may argue that specification for that protocol which usually includes words that explain why it exists and what can you use it for (like: transfer mail reliably and efficiently or HTTP has been in use by the World-Wide Web global information initiative since 1990, which, then allows you to bring documents related to said initiative and go from there). Legally all these talks are congregate on the implied license. But if you are connecting to random server using random protocol… what give you the right to do that? Explicit exception for reverse engineering is only applicable when you have a license to access something but have no technical means to do that. Well… where is the license that Andrew Tridgell used to be able to lawfully access BitMover server, hmm? Sure, but I'm yet to see a case where it was successfully used to circumvent the license. Every time someone tries to make Google Earth client, or YouTube client, or SharePoint server they are asked for a license first. Then en exception for reverse engineering and other such exceptions start to matter. That's why this Microsoft and Google dance around YouTube haven't ever raised the question of YouTube servers being publicly accessible and thus reverse-engineerable. No, you need a license first. Then you can start your reverse-engineering activities.
Posted May 26, 2024 12:14 UTC (Sun)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link] (2 responses)
IANAL, but from my understanding, the US generally is a permissive law - if it's not forbidden it's allowed. So, in that case, the question is "what law forbids you from connecting to an unknown server and poking it with known commands" (note that, if you read "https://lwn.net/Articles/132938/" you'll see that the group weren't sending random strings, they were sending known commands from other protocols such as "help")?
The closest I can find is CFAA https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030 which forbids such connections if the connection is for certain purposes (see 18 USC 1030(a)). But it only forbids for certain purposes. What if you're doing it for other purposes, such as reverse engineering? What have the courts ruled?
"Every time someone tries to make Google Earth client, or YouTube client, or SharePoint server they are asked for a license first. Then en exception for reverse engineering and other such exceptions start to matter."
You're aware of the many Youtube ad blockers for browsers out there, aren't you? I'm fairly comfortable none of their creators asked Google for permission. Google's answer has not been to sue, but to change their interface.
Also, just because others have asked for permission doesn't make it a requirement.
Posted May 26, 2024 14:00 UTC (Sun)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
Not when we are talking about making copies of “work of art”. There it's the opposite: by default that's forbidden, but there are licenses and various exceptions codified into law. And that's precisely the issue: they weren't just sending random command to perform some kind of network research or anything. They where clearly trying to induce or knowingly to cause another person to do something that's prohibited by copyright law. That's not because they couldn't sue. And in high-profile cases (like when Microsoft was involved) they threatened to sue. It's just most ad blockers don't belong to companies with deep enough pockets for court processings to be lucrative.
Posted May 26, 2024 14:10 UTC (Sun)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link]
Convention, law, or court case, please.
Posted May 25, 2024 12:47 UTC (Sat)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (4 responses)
I was replying to a comment that mentioned the word "crime".
Posted May 25, 2024 14:12 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (3 responses)
Well, that's kind of a moot point and pointless discussion: I don't think anyone ever said that what Andrew Tridgell was a crime. It could have become a crime later, at some point, if that cat-and-mouse game would have continues for a few years (like happened between between Microsoft and Google… remember than cat and mouse game?), but Larry have just pulled the rug from under the whole thing thus we never reached that stage. But license was violated, the question is about whether it was needed, at this stage (Google uses keys to authenticate clients and can rightfully claim that using stolen keys is a crime while BitMover had no such protection).
Posted May 25, 2024 15:52 UTC (Sat)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (2 responses)
You yourself wrote: You don't need to agree to the terms of the license to violate them. You need to agree to them for that to become a crime in this comment.
Posted May 25, 2024 16:40 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
If you don't have a license and copy something then it may become a crime if transgression is large enough. If you do accept a license and violate it, then it would be a different crime. And since these are different crimes discussion becomes ambigious. BitMover says that it only offers one license which gives Andrew the right to work with their servers and Andrew violated that license. And Andrew argues that he never signed by that license thus he shouldn't be bound by it's terms. Sure, that means he, potentially, may be fined $200 to $150,000 for each “work” that he infringed, but how many are there? Would that case be better represented in court is violation of the license or as unlicensed access? Thus would depend, very much, on the attorney and details said attorney would use in court… but since accusations never reached the court we couldn't distinguish between these two possibilities.
Posted May 27, 2024 21:38 UTC (Mon)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
If you do accept a license and violate it, then it would be a different crime.
No. Violating a license agreement is a civil matter, not a criminal one. (It could potentially be the case that a specific violation also violates criminal law, depending on the nature of the violation, but that's separate from violating the license agreement.)
Posted May 24, 2024 22:05 UTC (Fri)
by brunowolff (guest, #71160)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 24, 2024 22:56 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
It's the same thing as most other countries in reality: beyond certain threshold it's just classified as fraud and you go in jail not because you have violated the license but because you have done large enough “damage” and couldn't pay large enough compensation. In US that's somewhat convoluted, but doable, in other countries that's pretty much straighforward. Here's Russian version.
Posted May 26, 2024 0:14 UTC (Sun)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link] (9 responses)
I assume the "most definitely did" refers to reverse-engineering Bitkeeper, as that's what jra was disputing that Tridge did. The "appropriate link" article doesn't indicate that, nor does anything I've read on it. He reverse engineered the Bitkeeper Protocol, in order to develop a client. Which might fall under 17 USC 1201f exemptions for reverse engineering for purposes of interoperability (see my other post).
Posted May 26, 2024 11:12 UTC (Sun)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (8 responses)
The “don't piss of Larry” license included the clause that the one who signs it wouldn't develop any version control programs, and another client is the most blatant violation of that clause that may ever be imagined. 17 USC 1201f exemptions requires this: a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program, may <do many things>. And I fail to see where and how Andrew lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program if he never accepted the license. Care to enlighten me?
Posted May 26, 2024 12:03 UTC (Sun)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link] (7 responses)
Copyright is generally silent on the right to access copies. If I legally obtain access to a copy of a book (say I go to the library and check one out), I can read it without asking the author for permission. If I find a book on the street and pick it up, I can read it. If I own a copy and chose to sell it, I can without asking for permission from the copyright holder (I'm not making an new copy).
As we move into (and have moved into) the computer age, these questions come up, and are complicated by other laws such as CFAA (which I don't think was passed when Trigdell was reverse-engineering the Bitkeeper protocol, or the SMB protocol). In both cases, he didn't have a license to the software, but accessed it over the wire. Did he have permission? (see your other post) Which raises the question of "did he need explicit permission to send things to the port & see the answers?" Which is a separate question than "did he have right to copy".
"I fail to see where and how Andrew lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program if he never accepted the license."
Right to use is different from right to copy. With software, it often gets confused because the normal way to use a copy of software is to make a copy of it (often two - one to your hard drive, and then a copy to memory).
Trigdell never made a copy of Bitkeeper software. He asked it questions and got answers. The software ran on Bitmover's servers. Accessing a computer is a separate question, and the heart of the CFAA.(18 USC 1030- https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030).
Did his actions violate CFAA? Good question - what did the courts say? Oh, there was no court case. Question still open.
"The “don't piss of Larry” license included the clause that the one who signs it wouldn't develop any version control programs, and another client is the most blatant violation of that clause that may ever be imagined."
But if Trigdell never signed the license, never agreed to it, how can he be held accountable to it? Similar to reverse engineering of SMB - he never ran the software, never (as far as I know) agreed to run the license of the software. In that case, he sniffed the packets going over the network, figured out which were the SMB packets, deconstructed them, and figured out what was going on. Then reverse engineered the protocol to allow a Unix (Linux specifically, I believe) system to masquerade as an SMB server for purposes of file sharing.
Apparently Larry McVoy didn't think that what Trigdell did was so wrong that it was worth suing over (at least I'm unaware of a lawsuit). Whether that's because he didn't care, because his lawyers felt he didn't have a good case, because he didn't like suing, or for many other possible reasons, you'll need to talk to Larry to find out.
Posted May 26, 2024 13:02 UTC (Sun)
by jjs (guest, #10315)
[Link]
Posted May 26, 2024 14:29 UTC (Sun)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (5 responses)
No, it's not. It's only silent about cases where you access copy without making another one. Copyright law if full of exceptions like when copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner. Thousand years old exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis principle says the only reason for such exceptions to exist is to ensure that law which would otherwise prohibit them wouldn't harm innocent people. And law that restricts the whole thing is very broad: every copy that is made need a license (except when special exception is given). Law wouldn't need to specifically ensure that you have right to load program in memory if you purchased it on disc if that would have been obvious from some other parts of copyright law. Yes, but he asked server to make copy the whole BitKeeper history for him. That definitely falls under inducement bucket. Because he
At this point description of the form “I had no idea there was a license” or “I had no idea that I need a license” no longer flies. It's clear attempt to have the cake and eat it too. Courts, it general, have little lenience to such attempts. If he just snipped packets without ever sending them, then sure it would have been very hard to say about inducement. But that's not what have happened. When he reverse engineered an SMB he never induced creation of illegal copies (AFAIK, anyway). While in BitMover case that was his clear goal. No. Please open that old link and read again: He [Andrew Tridgell] couldn't talk about much, and he did not announce the release of his BitKeeper client. This tells us that lawyers were already definitely involved at this stage. Sure, that doesn't mean that Larry had a case (it's not unknown for “mere mortals” to easily fold when threat of court process is there even if said threat is baseless), but we know that Larry was ready to sue. Just Andrew folded before that being necessary.
Posted May 26, 2024 14:56 UTC (Sun)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (2 responses)
Would you please at least read the Wikipedia article about these terms?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inducement_rule
>The inducement rule holds that "one who distributes a device with the object of promoting its use to infringe copyright
Clearly not the case here.
Posted May 26, 2024 15:06 UTC (Sun)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link]
Posted May 26, 2024 15:10 UTC (Sun)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
It's more about INDUCE Act which was deemed unnecessary because §106 already says that only a copyright owner has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following (emphasis mine). Said act was overreaction to the Napster case and an attempted to make people liable when they just only provide things like sha1 sums which make finding copies easier without directly prompting anyone to make any copies. That was deemed to be overkill and wasn't added to law. But when you impersonate someone to do a copyright violation on your behalf… that's still forbidden. You can find long history with many laws and court cases in the Wikipedia.
Posted May 26, 2024 15:27 UTC (Sun)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
You do realize that the server could have easily said "Not without authentication" instead of "Sure, here's everything you asked for; can I get you anything else?"
At what point can we say Bitkeeper should have at least made a *token* effort to impose access control or some other sort of usage limitations on something they *intentionally* exposed to the public? Requiring API keys (or some sort of credentials) for certain operations was commonplace well before Bitkeeper was released.
As an added bonus, you make obtaining credentials conditional upon accepting the terms of service.
> That definitely falls under inducement bucket.
[citation needed], especially in light of the utter lack of any sort of access control.
Posted May 31, 2024 18:39 UTC (Fri)
by linuxrocks123 (subscriber, #34648)
[Link]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SourcePuller
Obviously, he wasn't sued.
Posted May 25, 2024 7:14 UTC (Sat)
by burki99 (subscriber, #17149)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 27, 2024 4:10 UTC (Mon)
by gdt (subscriber, #6284)
[Link]
Tridge's was asked about this at linux.conf.au. He telneted from Australia to the Bitkeeper server in the US and asked the crowd what to type. Starting with the command HELP and some knowledge of SCCS, the audience "reverse engineered" the protocol in minutes. Without being presented with or accepting the Bitkeeper terms of use. There was laughter at the claims of illegality by some people, and that same year Stevens v Sony made clear the High Court's view that reverse engineering for interoperability was both acceptable and desirable.
Posted May 26, 2024 12:56 UTC (Sun)
by ewx (subscriber, #103004)
[Link] (1 responses)
So did Linus violate the Bitkeeper licence by writing git without waiting a year?
(I guess nobody was stupid enough to sue him over it if so...)
Posted Jun 4, 2024 15:44 UTC (Tue)
by sammythesnake (guest, #17693)
[Link]
I'd argue that wording the terms in that way would be a mistake from the POV of BitMover, but wouldn't massively surprise me.
There's also the question of enforceability of such terms, depending on jurisdiction (and whims of process/judges etc.) it might be struck as unreasonable...
Posted May 29, 2024 2:08 UTC (Wed)
by brouhaha (subscriber, #1698)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 29, 2024 13:36 UTC (Wed)
by james (subscriber, #1325)
[Link]
Posted May 29, 2024 18:14 UTC (Wed)
by geert (subscriber, #98403)
[Link]
| > I was wondering if working on git, is in anyway, in violation of the
Posted May 29, 2024 23:17 UTC (Wed)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link] (3 responses)
He was wrong on the assertion that it was an “open source community problem” that compelled him to burn bridges — the open source community has absolutely no qualms about playing and paying into Microsoft's proprietary ecosystem, to the point where GitHub now dominates the planet in a very real sense. They even let their direct competitors use their service for free. (Microsoft!! Remember what we thought of *them* at the time?)
Unless your audience is mostly government and military, you need a robust set of soft skills to participate in the software industry - those are not things you can tabulate in a spreadsheet, and if you don't make time for them your numbers will end up disastrous and you won't understand *why*, because an entire concept is missing from your vocabulary. Why point this out twenty years after the events in the article? Because organisations involved in FOSS today are still making the same mistake!
Posted May 30, 2024 12:40 UTC (Thu)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link]
I want to give this more visibility, because it's something I see many software developers completely ignore; once a project gets large enough to have multiple developers working on it, your soft skills to get the other developers to work with you, not against you, often outweigh your coding ability. It's better for a project to have 3 developers each splitting their time 50:50 between coordinating work to avoid conflicts and actually coding, than to have 3 developers spending 100% of their time coding, but each undoing the work of the other two to make their code work.
Even at his worst, Linus understood this; his role in Linux for a very long time has been to coordinate developers so that there's a coherent project, rather than to cut code.
Posted May 30, 2024 15:32 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
I read some of the stuff. In it, I think it's McVoy himself that says that he and Sun both fell victim to the same problem - it's hard to surrender a flowing profit stream, even if you can see disaster looming ...
When the time came, he walked the walk. Because he no longer had any choice ...
Cheers,
Posted May 31, 2024 13:33 UTC (Fri)
by skx (subscriber, #14652)
[Link]
I'm sure they had customers/paying users in the early days, but it seemed like the project never really took off outside a few places, and of course later git took over the world eclipsing almost all other systems. Mercurial is still limping along, but things like darcs, bzr, cvs, svn, are all obsolete these days.
Posted May 30, 2024 15:35 UTC (Thu)
by tgall (subscriber, #217)
[Link]
There was a post I had made to LKML looking at the bit keeper license and pointing out problematic bits, which then set off a firestorm. Bummer that detail was left off the blog post.
https://lore.kernel.org/all/Pine.LNX.4.44.0210061410540.5...
That little bit in the license that kept various open source developers from using BitKeeper just because they working for a company that made SCM software was no small problem.
Alls well that ends well and thankfully git was and continues to be an important part of the open source revolution.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
2. Linus has a finite amount of time in a day that he can spend on programming, project management, and related work. He spends a non-zero amount of that time on Git, which means he can't spend it on the kernel or anything else. So determining whether the early arrival of Git would have been better would require us to figure how the kernel's development path would have changed, assuming Linus had less time for it, and comparing that against the benefit of an early Git. This is not straightforward to calculate.
3. Would Linus have developed Git, if he had never seen BitKeeper? I mean, probably eventually *somebody* would have (Merkle trees were patented in 1979, so the necessary tech mostly already existed), and I think it is even reasonable to grant that that person could plausibly still have been Linus, but would that person have been Linus in 2002? If we suppose that BK does not get adopted, and Git does not get developed (by Linus or whoever else) until 2005 or later, then what happens to the kernel from 2002 to 2005?
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> If he never used the client, where's the evidence that he agreed to the license that you claim he violated?
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> But you need to USE the product.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> if I'm asked to sign an NDA and refuse, and then act in a way that would have been against the terms of the NDA, describing that as a violation of the NDA would be pretty unusual
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
Field had actual knowledge of the Googlebot. He also was aware of the ways to prevent Google from either listing his site at all or listing it but not providing a link to the cached version. Instead of opting out, however, he chose to allow Google to both index and provide a link to the cached version.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
The content provided by BK servers was not Copyrighted by BitMover.
It was the Linux Kernel wrapped in a transmission protocol.
> The content provided by BK servers was not Copyrighted by BitMover.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
It does obviously not change the Kernel Copyright. And it obviously doesn't add more Copyright.
And was obviously publicly accessible without restriction.
> It is a transmission protocol.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
So not creative at all.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
A public server had been queried with a different tool.
> The copyrighted tool that required the license agreement was not used to make the request.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
>Which is an instant copyright violation in the absence of license.
>work to be used in that fashion.
Please provide evidence.
> Talking to a public service does not need a copyright license.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
(2) You can't be penalized for violating a contract that you aren't a party to.
(3) If something isn't copyright infringement to begin with, your "intent" doesn't matter.
> If something isn't copyright infringement to begin with, your "intent" doesn't matter.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
Cache-Control: no-store
line in server answer… that doesn't look like a typical license, but from court POV it would be declared “an implied license” because of exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis rule).BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> Every copy of copyrighted material is a copyright infingement without a license (or special-case in the law).
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> This is especially true if the license of the content accessed is permissive to begin with.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> So you're seriously asserting that if Linus or whomever ran a "bitkeeper export", BitMover would own the patch files it produced?
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
(1) "Selection, coordination, or arrangement" still has to contain some element of creativity and be performed by a *human* for copyright to apply. Mere mechanical transformation is insufficient.
(2) "time-based sequential ordering of the user's data" is not a novel or creative "selection, coordination, or arrangement." due to its obviousness.
> You do realize you're making the claim that the author of "diff" has a copyright claim over its output?
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> Facts are not copyrightable.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
Database Copyright requirements
"Copyright protection does not extend to ideas, procedures, processes, systems, methods of operation, concepts, principles, or discoveries. Copyright protects only the expression of an idea, not the idea itself. This principle, sometimes called the “idea-expression dichotomy,” ensures that protection will extend only to the original elements that the author has contributed to a work, not to the work’s underlying ideas, which remain freely available to the public."
> Bitkeeper's metadata meet that "minimum level of creativity"? Was "selection, coordination, and arrangement" original in Bitkeeper? Did Bitkeeper's responses provide for "copying the selection and arrangement of the database as a whole"? I don't know. As far as I can tell, these questions were never tested in court (which is the place where such a test could be made).
Database Copyright requirements
Database Copyright requirements
> Sweat of the brow does NOT mean creativity in terms of copyright. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's copyrightable.
Database Copyright requirements
Database Copyright requirements
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> Do you have a license to connect to the lwn.net servers?
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> Do you have a license to resolve lwn.net via DNS?
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
If you don't want the service to receive packets from me, don't put it onto the internet.
If you don't want me to use your public service, don't answer the packets I send to you.
> If you don't want the service to receive packets from me, don't put it onto the internet.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> Is it legal? Absolutely not!
> And you want to ignore it.
And now you are saying that it's illegal to send packets to it.
Without bringing any evidence.
Give it a rest?
> It's your turn.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> Very similar to what he did with the Bitkeeper protocol (minus the documentation).
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
help
and get an answer is enough… but that sounds like a very flimsy argument to me.BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
To convince people, you have to provide evidence.
It's your turn.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=...
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
yet, nonetheless
Just FWIW, from my memory of the days and talking to Tridge, I think that the assertion that the license was violated is ... not obviously true. Much of what he figured out he learned by talking to the server with netcat and typing "help" at it...
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> Much of what he figured out he learned by talking to the server with netcat and typing "help" at it...
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
robots.txt
.BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> Why would it?
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> Simply talking to a publicly reachable server in order to figure out how to communicate with it - and even circumventing some protections of that server in doing so (which wasn't even the case here) - is explicitly allowed by law.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> IANAL, but from my understanding, the US generally is a permissive law - if it's not forbidden it's allowed
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> I assume the "most definitely did" refers to reverse-engineering Bitkeeper, as that's what jra was disputing that Tridge did.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
> Copyright is generally silent on the right to access copies.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
Second request: you all can clearly go around in circles on this forever, but there are no lawyers here and little of use is resulting. It really is time to give it (and us) a break.
Can we wind this down?
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
A very brief search did not turn up a copy of the "Community" BitKeeper License that was in effect at the time, but if the Wikipedia synopsys of it is correct, that a developer using BitKeeper under that license was not allowed to work on a competing tool for the dration of their usage of BitKeeper plus one year, then how did Linus writing Git not violate his BitKeeper License obligations?
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
Can I point you to this earlier discussion on the subject?
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
| > Bitkeeper license, which states that you cannot work on any other SCM
| > (SCM-like?) tool for "x" amount of time after using Bitkeeper ?
|
| That's valid for the new BK license only which probably wasn't
| accepted by Linus.
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
you need a robust set of soft skills to participate in the software industry
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
Wol
BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)
One thing left out .... BitKeeper, Linux, and licensing disputes: How Linus wrote Git in 14 days (Graphite blog)