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Eelco Dolstra steps down from NixOS Foundation board

Eelco Dolstra steps down from NixOS Foundation board

Posted May 4, 2024 17:01 UTC (Sat) by willy (subscriber, #9762)
In reply to: Eelco Dolstra steps down from NixOS Foundation board by NYKevin
Parent article: Eelco Dolstra steps down from NixOS Foundation board

This is an interesting perspective because it differs from what I mean when I say that software is inherently political. I don't think we disagree particularly; I think we're just emphasizing different aspects.

Choosing to release software is political. You're immediately interacting with other people, and so you've already made a political decision. Choosing the license is more obviously a political decision, but so is choosing a build system, a bug tracking system, a communication mechanism (email? Discord? IRC?)

So even if you're working on a data structure library that is only used by other programmers, your life is full of political decisions that you may not even realize you're making. And if you're making them without realizing then there's only one response ... Get woke!


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Eelco Dolstra steps down from NixOS Foundation board

Posted May 4, 2024 18:34 UTC (Sat) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [Link] (3 responses)

Yes, I personally find that style of argument, while true, isn't very strong to me. I tend to look at it one of two ways:
- As you said, software is inherently political because software development is inherently political because software is developed by humans and those humans are political entities and exist in a poltical context
- Software is inherently political by generalization of Conways Law. We already treat it as a truism that software will inherently develop in a way that reproduces and thus reinforces the circumstances under which it was made. It would be strange to argue that this somehow only applies to office politics and not something as fundamental as the worldviews of the people making it or the political context under which it was made.

These both offer good counterarguments to the disclaimer above that that projects like SQLite might be apolitical. Both their software development practices are highly political (making your code of conduct the 10 commandments is definitely a choice) as are the imbued ideas and assumptions, with the single-node-single-process model originating from it's creation for use in guided missile destroyers vs the single-server-many-user batch processing heavy model formed by big business (including of course also the military) logistics.

Another aspect is that in common discussion, there's sometimes a misunderstanding between something being political and something being partisan. Indeed, there are many people who have the luxury of being able to be detached enough from politics think these two things are the same thing. What is partisan depends highly on when and where you are and indeed many highly political things are not generally partisan. Again the US military offers a good example there, with it's size and international role being uncontroversial enough domestically to be politically irrelevant.

There's also a final and I think most correct argument, which is: So what? Why does it matter whether that thing is political or not?

Litigating what is and isn't political only matters if it being political or not changes how we approach the situation. But claims of something being political generally goes one of two ways: Either you espouse a need to "ban politics", by which you mean banning anything of controversy, which would effectively prevent any change away from the current situation that benefits you. Or you're trying to bring awareness to the inherent choices we make when developing software, which you are probably doing because you are trying to bring awareness to the fact that these choices are malleable, deserve introspection and believe they can and should be changed, as I do. In either case, the argument does not benefit much from trying to pin down what is and isn't political.

Eelco Dolstra steps down from NixOS Foundation board

Posted May 6, 2024 20:15 UTC (Mon) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] (2 responses)

I think the issue is mostly about external politics rather than partisan politics specifically. How do you even define partisan politics for a group where not everyone is part of the same political system? What people who complain about politics seem to be unhappy about is issues they see as outside the scope of their project intruding. They like to see their project as a refuge from the outside world and get annoyed when that outside world intrudes. The question of whether NixOS should be tightly aligned with Anduril seems like a good example. It isn't explicitly partisan, but it's definitely an example of the non-software world intruding into a mostly technical project.

I think this makes complaints about "politics" more understandable. It is annoying when concerns external to whatever you're working on interfere; it makes everything that much more complicated. That said, I agree that criticism of topics as "political" is often used to shut down uncomfortable discussions.

Eelco Dolstra steps down from NixOS Foundation board

Posted May 6, 2024 20:44 UTC (Mon) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [Link] (1 responses)

Personally, I don't find the subject of discrimination at all external to my participation in a community. It is in fact pretty hard to ignore such things when they happen to you. Nor do I have any desire to be in a community where existing requires me to actively ignore such things. But I understand you may be in a more luxurious position there.

I also have to say I'm struggling to sympathize with the plight of someone being reminded that minorities exist while coding. I'm reminded of them pretty regularly and I don't find that particularly distressing myself. Even for people who's right to exist is highly politicized. But you may differ of course.

Eelco Dolstra steps down from NixOS Foundation board

Posted May 6, 2024 21:58 UTC (Mon) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

I hope I didn't sound dismissive of people who are mistreated because of who they are. I agree that the way the project treats its members is a core governance issue and is absolutely not a matter of external politics intruding. It's a great example of people using "let's not talk about politics" as a way of shutting down discussions they want to avoid. I thought about using it as an example but foolishly decided it would just stir up trouble.

Eelco Dolstra steps down from NixOS Foundation board

Posted May 6, 2024 9:25 UTC (Mon) by milesrout (subscriber, #126894) [Link] (1 responses)

None of these things are political at all. Repeatedly stating that they are doesn't make it true.

Eelco Dolstra steps down from NixOS Foundation board

Posted May 6, 2024 20:27 UTC (Mon) by immibis (subscriber, #105511) [Link]

Repeatedly stating that they aren't does not make it false. Why do I recognize your username?


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