|
|
Subscribe / Log in / New account

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 21, 2024 8:20 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252)
In reply to: Gentoo bans AI-created contributions by Wol
Parent article: Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

> btw, khim, the difference between "a" and "the" is easy to explain and hard to apply

The problem is not that it's hard to understand, the problem is that to do the right choice I need to think about something that I normally don't care about at all.

It's similar to palatalization to English speaker: compare ugol' to ugol: these are certainly sounding not completely identically, but would you care about that difference enough to hear and reproduce that difference in casual speech? I'm yet to see any English speaker who can reliably do that. Simply because that's not something they are trained to perceive.

I know the difference between “a” and “the” and if life (or, more, likely, my work permit) would depend on that difference I can use them correctly… most of the time. Just like people (even non-native speakers) can spell words correctly… most of the time. But similarly to how spellchecker effortlessly catches cases where there are no ambiguity with spelling so AI does that for me with articles: instead of deciphering my own text and looking at it from angle that is just not natural for me I may spend my mental efforts on something else.

English have it easy, BTW. Try to ensure that you are using articles in German correctly some day.

> And how many other languages have THREE different forms of the present tense?

You would be suprised. Latin have six tenses and because it was used in so many countries for so long that crazyness leaked out into them, too. Only it has mutated in the process and different languages got similar yet different ideas about how time passes.


to post comments

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 21, 2024 13:36 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (19 responses)

> English have it easy, BTW. Try to ensure that you are using articles in German correctly some day.

German is my second language. I know :-)

> > And how many other languages have THREE different forms of the present tense?

> You would be suprised. Latin have six tenses and because it was used in so many countries for so long that crazyness leaked out into them, too. Only it has mutated in the process and different languages got similar yet different ideas about how time passes.

Well, I was taught we have the same 6 tenses. It makes perfect sense to me.

But another reply tells me we have FOUR present tenses - I'm not aware of the fourth ... that's for just ONE Latin present tense ...

(I program, I am programming, I do program. I'm not aware of any other European language with multiple present tenses - doesn't mean there aren't any, I've just never heard of any...)

Cheers,
Wol

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 21, 2024 16:55 UTC (Sun) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (7 responses)

> But another reply tells me we have FOUR present tenses - I'm not aware of the fourth ... that's for just ONE Latin present tense ...

They are:
Present simple I work
Present continuous I am working
Present perfect I have worked
Present perfect continuous I have been working

These are common, e.g. equivalent in Spanish:
Yo trabajo
Yo estoy trabajando
Yo he trabajado
Yo he estado trabajando

(apologies if I am messing up the conjugation)

German also has present simple and present perfect, it is missing the continuous forms.

Anyway, as someone who has studied multiple foreign languages. English is by *far* the easiest to deal with.

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 21, 2024 19:11 UTC (Sun) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (2 responses)

This is complicated enough that linguists usually divide it up into three (or occasionally four) parts:

* Tense - Usually past, present, and future.
* Aspect - Simple ("perfective"), progressive (continuous), and perfect. Some languages have imperfect or other aspects, which English lacks.
* Mood or modality - Anything marked with a modal verb (the auxiliary verbs used for the progressive and perfect do not count as modal in this formalism). Sometimes subcategorized into indicative and subjunctive modalities (but we can further categorize into conditional, counterfactual, normative or deontic, etc.).
* Evidentiality - Not used in English, and for that matter not used in most/all Indo-European languages. Some languages mark verbs to indicate why the speaker believes the asserted fact to be true, for example distinguishing between something directly witnessed and something indirectly reported. Some authorities consider this an extension of modality.

One confusing thing about English is that English has no future tense in this formalism. The future is sometimes marked with the modal verb "will," so you could say that the future is a modality. But modalities are optional in a way that tenses are not, and so we can have sentences like "Tomorrow, I'm buying a new laptop," which is semantically happening in the future but has no grammatical marker indicating as much (and if you chop off the "tomorrow" prefix, it's a perfectly good present continuous sentence without a whiff of the future).

On the other hand, there are languages (such as Mandarin Chinese) that have only one tense in this formalism. Those languages either treat all time information as modal, or do not have grammaticalized time markers at all. Of course, speakers of those languages are perfectly capable of distinguishing between past, present, and future. Every language can do that. But in these languages, time information is truly optional. You can say "I buy a new laptop," as a discrete event (rather than the habitual or indefinite sense that English simple present would normally imply), without specifying when that happens.

Another "fun" property of English is do-support: There are some constructions in English which grammatically require a modal verb (e.g. turning a declarative sentence into a yes-no question), but modals are semantically optional in English, so the word "do" (or "does") is used as a placeholder when no modal is required. In general, English does a lot of fronting and other grammatical rearrangement when building different constructions, and I would imagine that this annoys speakers of Spanish just as much as Spanish verb conjugations tend to annoy speakers of English.

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 21, 2024 19:57 UTC (Sun) by donald.buczek (subscriber, #112892) [Link]

It fills me with great satisfaction that I am now receiving the prophesied English lecture after all.

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 21, 2024 20:31 UTC (Sun) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link]

I find https://www.ithkuil.net/ fascinating, not fascinating enough to actually learn it, but still interesting to what sort of concepts you can cram into a language.

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 21, 2024 20:55 UTC (Sun) by donald.buczek (subscriber, #112892) [Link] (3 responses)

> German also has present simple and present perfect, it is missing the continuous forms.

No, German has that, too. "I am working" would be "Ich bin arbeitend". Yes, this isn't used much and sounds a bit strange but it is valid. It strongly indicates "right at this very moment".

Now, to make things even more complicated: A male "worker" is a "Arbeiter" and a female worker is a "Arbeiterin". A worker or a group of workers with unknown, irrelevant or mixed gender would be "Arbeiter", too. But many people now reject the generic masculine.

So currently, several gender neutral forms compete with the old generic masculine and with each other. For plural, the substantivized form of the verb in the present continuous tense is often used: "Arbeitende".

So the seldom-used tense got a little revival lately.

I don't like it, because to me the natural interpretation of "Arbeitende" would be "people, who work at this very moment".

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 21, 2024 21:14 UTC (Sun) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link] (2 responses)

> "I am working" would be "Ich bin arbeitend".

Mmmm, I believe arbeitend functions as an adverb, in this sentence. That is "I am something" and the something that I am is "working".

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 22, 2024 7:25 UTC (Mon) by donald.buczek (subscriber, #112892) [Link] (1 responses)

> Mmmm, I believe arbeitend functions as an adverb, in this sentence. That is "I am something" and the something that I am is "working".

After reading a bit I have to admit that you are more correct than I am. The word form 'arbeitend' is known as 'Partizip I' (Present Participle) in German, which functions as a hybrid between a verb and an adjective/adverb.

This is from the beginning of the German variant of the Wikipedia of "Participle" / "Partizip" page:

> A participle (Latin participium, from particeps "participating"; plural: participles) is a grammatical form (participial form) that is derived from a verb and thereby partially acquires the properties of an adjective, but also retains some properties of a verb. The term "participle" and likewise the German term Mittelwort express this characteristic of participating in two categories at the same time, namely verb and adjective. [...]
> German examples of participles are the forms ending in -end like spielend (to the verb spielen; called "Present Participle") and the forms starting with ge- like gespielt (called "Past Participle"). In traditional grammar, participles were often listed as a separate part of speech alongside verbs, adjectives, nouns, etc.; however, this view is not shared in modern linguistics, where participles are considered as words or even constructions that contain varying proportions of verbal and adjectival
components.

You are correct; the Present Participle ('Partizip I') is not typically used in natural speech as a verb to denote an 'immediate' tense. "Ich bin arbeitend" can be said to be wrong and is not listed in tables with verb tenses. At least, it sounds yoda-ish.

As you mentioned, The Present Participle is used as an adjective or adverb to describe a state. It's also used, a bit more verbish, to indicate simultaneous actions, for example, "Die Kinder kamen lachend aus der Schule" ("The children came out of the school laughing").

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 27, 2024 2:19 UTC (Sat) by gutschke (subscriber, #27910) [Link]

Just to throw another wrinkle into this discussion, I believe that in "ich bin arbeitend", the "arbeitend" would be a predicative expression, which is different both from an adverb and from a way of expressing what English would do with present continuous. It simply describes a state that you are in. For a better discussion, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicative_expression

I understand why it is tempting to say that the present participle is used to form a present continuous. That would feel very natural to an English speaker who is familiar with Latin. And it feels almost but not quite as if German should do the same. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some regional German dialects did this. There is a lot of cross pollination between all of these languages, but in the process grammatical concepts get repurposed and subtly change.

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 21, 2024 18:07 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (10 responses)

> I program, I am programming, I do program.

And where do you see different present tenses?

> Well, I was taught we have the same 6 tenses. It makes perfect sense to me.

Well… to some degree it even makes sense to me. Just different from what sense it makes to you. Please open that Wikipedia link, scroll down literally dozen of lines and read:

English has only two morphological tenses: the present (or non-past), as in he goes, and the past (or preterite), as in he went.

WHA… what happened to these “six tenses”? That's also explained right there, too:

The study of modern languages has been greatly influenced by the grammar of the Classical languages, since early grammarians, often monks, had no other reference point to describe their language. Latin terminology is often used to describe modern languages, sometimes with a change of meaning, as with the application of "perfect" to forms in English that do not necessarily have perfective meaning, or the words Imperfekt and Perfekt to German past tense forms that mostly lack any relationship to the aspects implied by those terms.
> I'm not aware of any other European language with multiple present tenses - doesn't mean there aren't any, I've just never heard of any...

English times are “different” for the same reason English inches, feet and miles are different from meters, that everyone else uses. Difference is not in language per see, it's in how it's teached. Just why you say that I am programming is separate time while I love programming is not?

In reality most European languages may also use verbs to adjust time perception, they just don't [try to] pretend it's, somehow, grammatically different time and are [slowly] adopting the rules what actual linguistic designed and not [try to] pretend everyone is talking in a variant of Latin.

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 21, 2024 22:14 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (9 responses)

> > I program, I am programming, I do program.

> And where do you see different present tenses?

Because they have completely different meanings?

"I am a programmer, I program" - it's my job, I do it all the time, I may - OR MAY NOT - be doing it right now (I'm not - I'm busy writing right now :-)

"I am programming" - I'm not, I'm not doing it now, I'm writing.

"I do (not) act" - this variant is almost always either emphatic or negative - and when negative it implies "never".

So the first variant is the continuous present, I may not be doing it right now but it happens past present and future. (In the positive it also does not necessarily imply "right now".)

The second variant is the present - it's happening right now.

The third variant - I'm not sure what it's called - is almost always used to imply "never".

Three clearly different meanings.

To jump on your mention of "English has "he goes" and "he went"", what do you understand by the two sentences

"Jim is going to the gym" and "Jim goes to the gym". I was taught they are two - clearly different - present tenses. Because they have two - clearly different - meanings.

Cheers,
Wol

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 22, 2024 4:38 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (8 responses)

> And where do you see different present tenses?

Sure. And I love programming would be another meaning and I teach programming yet another one.

Does it mean there are bazillion times in English? Loving present, teaching present and so on?

No, there are two times and many verbs of which few selected ones are interpreted by teachers as “yet another time”.

English is not unique and not even particularly hard WRT to how it treats time (other languages have many other and different ways to talk about time passage, too). What is inique is absolute refusal to change anything anywhere for any reason in teaching of said language.

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 22, 2024 7:38 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (7 responses)

> No, there are two times and many verbs of which few selected ones are interpreted by teachers as “yet another time”.

Let's apply some very simple logic.

"I program" = "I am programming"

therefore true = false

Unless you live in Crete, these two cannot be same, therefore while they are both present, they have to be different present tenses. And I don't know about you, but this confusion is one of the absolutely standard ways by which we detect foreign speakers ... it's a VERY common mistake. (Coupled with the occasional giveaway of "I programming" which simply doesn't exist in standard English.)

Cheers,
Wol

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 22, 2024 10:29 UTC (Mon) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (4 responses)

This is one of the classic mistakes Dutch people with poor English make.

The phrase "ik ga naar school" in Dutch can mean either "I go to school" or "I am going to school (now)" depending on the context. For some reason Dutch people often throw in the "am" when it is unnecessary, but other Dutch don't pick up the problem either. Once you point it out to them it usually corrects fairly quickly, but it's fascinating that the same type of error keeps popping up.

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 22, 2024 11:00 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (2 responses)

I'm confused, how is the am in "I am going to school" unnecessary in English? "I go to school" in English - at least in most of the Celtic Isles - would sound a little foreign. Indeed, it sounds... Dutch. ;)

Also (and ICBW, I've never really had native /adult/ dutch, and it's been a long time since I had native child's dutch), but could a dutch person not be more precise with "Ik ga nu naar school" for "I am going to school now"? Also, "Ik ga zo naar school" for "I am going to school shortly"? Part of the problem with dutch is it has become very terse, and dropped a lot of constructs - even in my lifetime AFAIK. (??).

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 22, 2024 11:45 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> I'm confused, how is the am in "I am going to school" unnecessary in English? "I go to school" in English - at least in most of the Celtic Isles - would sound a little foreign. Indeed, it sounds... Dutch. ;)

My daughter goes to school - and she's 40. She's a deputy head :-)

The "am" is WRONG (not unnecessary, wrong) if it's school holidays :-) "I go to school" typically means "I am a student", while "I am going to school" means I'm on my way right now.

Cheers,
Wol

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 22, 2024 21:04 UTC (Mon) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

Yeah, I guess I'm not explaining myself very well. It's not that the "am" is unnecessary in general, but that most of the time they mean the variant without. So you get conversations like:

A: What do you do during the day?
B: I am working.
A: (confused) Clearly you are sitting here having a drink? Oh you mean "I work".

It's not that some languages cannot express certain tenses, given enough words you can express any tense in any (sufficiently advanced) language. It's whether certain tenses have a special status in the grammer of a language. Generally similar concepts in different languages are linked in different ways which leads to people learning the language using words in ways a native speaker finds confusing.

But yes, this is a post about Gentoo, so better leave it at that.

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 22, 2024 13:48 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

> Once you point it out to them it usually corrects fairly quickly, but it's fascinating that the same type of error keeps popping up.

What's fascinating about that? You are using less flexible language and are forcing someone to pick between two choice that to him (or her) are almost undistinguishable. Of course there would be mistakes!

It's like an attempt of someone to write perl program for the first time. Learning when should you use `$` and when should you use `@` with arrays names is non-trivial, to say the least.

Gentoo bans AI-created contributions

Posted Apr 22, 2024 13:43 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't know whether continuing is constructive at this point. You are sprouting the same kind of nonsense that you sprouted when undefined behavior was discussed and ignore everything except what you believe to be true. Even if your believe don't even remotely match the reality.

> Let's apply some very simple logic.

If by now “logic”, in English, means “random sequence of letters without any clear meaning”, then I guess I learned some kind of wrong English.

> "I program" = "I am programming"

therefore true = false

Unless you live in Crete, these two cannot be same

Sure, they are not the same, but so are sentences “I am”, “I like”, “I like programming”, “I teach”, “I teach programming” and many others.

> therefore while they are both present

Yes. And they are present in most other human languages. Or do you believe other languges couldn't distinguish without person who is programming for living and person who programs something right now, this very second? They can, that's not a reason to introduce some nonsense bazillion present tenses.

Why does it may surprise that not all things that may happen in present have the same meaning… or why have you decided that alls these sequences of words should be split into three semi-randomly picked present times?

> they have to be different present tenses

Why? Why “I like programming” or “I teach programming” don't need different present tenses, but “I am programming” needs it?

> And I don't know about you, but this confusion is one of the absolutely standard ways by which we detect foreign speakers ... it's a VERY common mistake.

Yes, but is it because English have more “more present tenses” or… because has it “less present tenses”? I would say that it's because it has less.

It's the same story as with articles: similarly to how most of the time difference between “a” and “the” is meaningless (can be picked from the context easily and can be easily conveyed if needed) difference between “I program” and “I am programming” exist but it's not useful! Of course other languages can distinguish between these two forms if needed, it's just most of the time there are no need to distingush them.

Worse: the form that is conveying more often needed meaning (that I'm programming right now) is longer and more complicated.

English is similar to BASH here: like in BASH you may want to write $* or "$@" and, most of the time, short form is not needed and not used so English insist on use of longer form where difference between two forms are meaningless (e.g. on a programmer's forum saying that you know how to program is not useful but saying that you are in process of writing program is useful).

> Coupled with the occasional giveaway of "I programming" which simply doesn't exist in standard English.

Indeed. English grammar is extremely inflexible, rigid and, I would even say, “strange”. It takes a long time for a speaker of some other language where words don't come in a sentence in any particular order to adjust to it.

English, of course, have no choice because it has words that may sound identically when used as noun and as verb, but, again, problem arises not when English offers you more capabilities (you may just ignore them) but when it doesn't have capabilities that other languages have (similarly to how translating program from statically-typed language to dynamically-typed is easy but going in the other direction is not).

On continuing

Posted Apr 22, 2024 13:57 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

Indeed, this conversation has gone fairly far afield, and it seems like a good time to wind it down.

Remember Gentoo? ... this is an article about Gentoo ...


Copyright © 2025, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds