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A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

By Joe Brockmeier
April 5, 2024

The nominations have closed and campaigning is underway to see who will be the next Debian Project Leader (DPL). This year, two candidates are campaigning for the position Jonathan Carter has held for four eventful years: Sruthi Chandran and Andreas Tille. Topics that have emerged so far include how the prospective DPLs would spend project money, their opinions on handling controversial topics, and project diversity.

The DPL role

The project leader position is defined by Debian's Constitution, and has a one-year term. The DPL is elected by members of the Debian Project, the Debian Developers. The DPL has duties in two broad categories, external and internal duties. The external duties can include attending events and giving talks about Debian, as well as managing relationships with other projects. The DPL's internal duties include coordinating and communicating within the project, and appointing delegates to the various committees, including the Debian Technical Committee, Debian Publicity Team, Debian System Administration (DSA) team, and the Treasurer team, among others.

The DPL is empowered to make decisions that require "urgent action" and those decisions "for whom [no-one] else has responsibility". The DPL is also charged with making decisions about "property held in trust" for the project (such as hardware, or money), and can decide to authorize new "trusted organizations" to hold Debian assets, or to remove organizations from the list of trusted organizations.

The project lead co-appoints a new Project Secretary with the current secretary. If they cannot agree on a delegate for this position, then it is put to a vote by the Debian Developers. The Project Secretary is responsible for, among other things, managing project elections. The current secretary, Kurt Roeckx, has held the position since 2009 and was re-appointed to another term in February.

The Carter years

Carter, the current DPL, has held the position since April 2020 and is the first to hold the position for four consecutive terms. Last year, Carter ran unopposed. This year, Carter did not stand for election, but he posted a lengthy overview of his terms in his final "Bits from the DPL". He covered topics like the things that were accomplished during those terms, and things he felt could have gone better or still need to be done. It provides a great deal of insight for those who would hold the DPL role and for those who need to evaluate candidates.

Communication is at the top of Carter's list of things that could have gone better:

With every task, crisis or deadline that appears, I think that once this is over, I'll have some more breathing space to get back to non-urgent, but important tasks. "Bits from the DPL" was something I really wanted to get right this last term, and clearly failed spectacularly. I have two long Bits from the DPL drafts that I never finished, I tend to have prioritised problems of the day over communication.

His tenure as DPL had plenty of crises and deadlines. Carter's first term began in April 2020, just as COVID-19 began to spread globally and forced the project to hold DebConf20 as a virtual event. The project released Debian 11 and Debian 12 on his watch. He led the project during an episode of attacks on the Debian community by a former Debian Developer that began during Sam Hartman's term and continued into Carter's. But the most difficult period, said Carter, was the loss of Abraham Raji, who passed away during a kayaking trip during DebConf23. "There's really not anything anyone could've done to predict or stop it, but it was devastating to many of us, especially the people closest to him."

Carter said his number-one goal for his last term, which carried over from previous terms but failed to materialize, was for Debian to become a "standalone entity". Currently Debian is affiliated with Software in the Public Interest (SPI), a 501(c)(3) non-profit incorporated in the United States. In addition to SPI, Debian takes donations via Debian France (a French non-profit organization) and debian.ch (a Swiss non-profit). Carter included this in his 2022 campaign platform, citing "difficulties in setting up agreements with external entities, and creating problems in terms of personal legal liability within the project" as reasons Debian needs to have its own legal entity. Carter said it was "something that we need to seriously address together as a project and make a decision based on its merits", but it remains unaddressed.

The DPL winds up having a hand in many project initiatives by encouraging others to do the work, and delegating the authority to do so. In his final "Bits from the DPL," Carter recounted several initiatives that he helped along in this way, including founding the DebianNet Team to provide hosting services to Debian developers, nudging Steve McIntyre to propose the successful non-free firmware general-resolution, and encouraging the creation of the Debian Reimbursements system.

The candidates

Roeckx's call for DPL nominations went out on March 8. Candidates self-nominate for DPL and provide a platform with a biography and goals for voters to consider ahead of the campaign period. In addition to the two candidates who have chosen to run this year, Debian Developers always have a third option as mandated by the Debian constitution: none of the above. The project uses a variation of the Condorcet method for its general resolutions and elections, where voters rank the options instead of simply choosing one. If Debian voters rank "none of the above" over the two candidates, then the election process is started again and run until a winning candidate is selected.

Chandran had run for DPL previously in 2021, and her 2024 platform was updated from that year's platform. She described herself as "a librarian turned Free Software enthusiast and Debian Developer from India". She has worked on Ruby, JavaScript, Go, and font packages for Debian since 2016, though she mentioned that she is not very active at packaging these days. Chandran highlighted that she is a member of several teams and was chief organizer of DebConf23 in India.

Why is Chandran running? She wrote that she is concerned about "skewed gender ratios within the Free Software community (and Debian)" and is doing "whatever I can to better the situation". It may be worth noting that, if elected, Chandran would be the first woman to be DPL—a position that has existed since 1993:

I am aware that Debian is doing things to increase diversity within Debian, but as we can see, it is not sufficient. I am sad that there are only two women Debian Developer[s] from a large country like India. I believe diversity is not something to be discussed only within Debian-women or Debian-diversity. It should come up for discussion in each and every aspect of the project.

Diversity is a cornerstone of Chandran's platform. She stated that Debian spends "a good amount of money on diversity" but without achieving results. Therefore, her first task as DPL would be "to revisit the existing spending pattern to analyse why and where we are going wrong". She would "streamline" the Diversity Team's activities and appoint a delegated team to coordinate all diversity activities within Debian and help make decisions about related spending.

Chandran would also like to focus on outreach as DPL. Debian participates in Google Summer of Code (GSoC) and Outreachy, but she would like to see additional activities, such as a "Debian camp" similar to Free Software Camp, and review the efficacy of participating in GSoC and Outreachy.

She agreed that it may be time for Debian to become its own registered organization or foundation:

While organising DebConf23, I had to face some issues because Debian is not a registered organisation, That is when I started thinking about this concept seriously.

So, as a DPL, I would be definitely interested in exploring the possibilities, advantages and disadvantages of having Debian registered. I am not saying that this is my main agenda, but it will definitely be brought up if I am elected.

Tille wrote in his platform that he has been involved with Debian for more than 25 years, but this is his first run for DPL. Tille has a background as a physicist, which has given him "a keen interest in practical applications of IT solutions in science". He wrote that his primary involvement with Debian has been as a packager, and he is running because he feels "compelled to give back more to my friends and the community".

Keeping Debian "relevant in a changing OS ecosystem" is at the top of Tille's agenda. He wrote that Debian is a "victim of its own success" as "the most frequently derived distribution". If elected, he would like to work on making Debian more widely known by users who "do not consider themselves Linux experts" and try to learn from other Linux distributions to improve Debian. "Maybe we will be able to draw some conclusions, for instance, why ArchWiki is famous for good documentation but wiki.debian.org is not." He would like to encourage better packaging practices and to help address Debian's "smelly packages" (packages that need to be updated to meet newer Debian standards). The Debian Trends page has information about packages in need of refresh and lists of packages with the issues that need to be addressed.

Tille also emphasized outreach, diversity, inclusivity, and a need to foster "a friendly environment inside Debian" in his platform. He cites success in attracting contributors to Debian Med, a project to create a Debian Pure Blend tailored for "all tasks in medical care and research" with software for "medical imaging, bioinformatics, clinic IT infrastructure" and more. His platform includes ideas about lowering the barriers to contribution by "introducing tasks such as bug squashing, autopkgtest writing, and other short-term assignments that require minimal time commitments".

His platform includes an emphasis on shared work on packaging and improving the process of integrating new packages. In particular, Tille wants to see a Debian where "every crucial task" is handled by at least two people to "ensure comprehensive backup and support". Those who prefer a single-maintainer model, he wrote, "should probably rank me below 'None of the above'".

On controversial topics

It is customary for the prospective DPL candidates to take questions on the debian-vote mailing list during the campaign period. Thomas Koch jumped in on March 10, before the official start of the campaign period, and led with an observation that "more and more areas of our lives become political and controversies on such topics [become] more aggressive." He then asked, how would the candidates "try to lead a community that focuses on producing a great distribution without getting divided on controversial topics?"

Tille held his response until the official start of the campaign period and provided a two-part response. Tille wrote that if Koch meant political controversies, "I have a clear statement: Make sure off-topic messages will be reduced to a bare minimum on Debian channels". He suggested a maximum of one, clearly marked, off-topic message that invites discussion elsewhere. Controversial technical topics, he wrote, are "no problem as long as participants of the discussion are following our Code of Conduct".

Politics, wrote Chandran are in "every aspect of our life", including Debian; "using or contributing to Debian itself is a political statement. I do not consider Debian to be 'just' a technical project, it has its social and political aspects too". Like Tille, she said there will be technical disagreements, which is fine as long as the discussions are constructive and do not violate the code of conduct.

Debian as an organization

Nilesh Patra wanted to know what the candidates plans were for managing Debian's finances and accounting. Patra wrote, "the finances in the project do not have a lot of transparency" though there are occasional updates on debian-private and via DPL talks. The candidates' platforms, complained Patra, "have only a (very) vague idea about it and I'd like to know more specifics about it" and if the candidates had ideas about where the money would be best spent.

Indeed, tracking Debian's spending is not as easy as one might hope. One might expect a project like Debian to have an annual budget with projected spending, estimated donations, and all of that to be tracked publicly. However, this is not the case. The bulk of Debian's finances are held by SPI, and Debian's spending via SPI is found in the SPI treasurer reports rather than on Debian's site. The most recent SPI report is from November 2023, and found here. According to that report, Debian held more than $649,000 in reserve.

Chandran said that "deciding in advance where to spend and where not to spend money in advance is not a great idea in our context", because Debian does not have a fixed budget. Her only plan right now, she wrote, is "to revisit the diversity budget and how to increase the efficiency" of spending on diversity. If elected, she wrote that she would spend time to evaluate whether a better system could replace the "delayed, manual and tedious accounting process" the project has today.

To this, Carter replied that "accounting processes have definitely been one of the stumbling blocks", but pointed to the new reimbursement system as a major improvement:

It's still under development, but it's shaping up nicely, so I think in the future, the financial administration will be far less of a burden to the DPL than it has been for years already.

Tille admitted that his understanding is "currently low and incomplete". However, he wrote that he would "love to be transparent about money" and is open to help on that front should he become DPL. He said he did not know how to "measure 'best' objectively" but listed events like DebConf, bug-squashing parties, and team sprints as important, as well as infrastructure hardware for the project. People were not, he said, donating money to Debian for the money to sit unused in a bank account and the project should consider new ways to use its money, including paying people to do Debian work:

Personally, I'm open to discussing whether to compensate contributors for important tasks that either nobody wants to do or lacks people with sufficient time capacity to undertake those tasks. I recall the various pros and cons raised during past discussions on this matter, but if people believe it's time to initiate a fresh discussion, I'm very receptive to that.

Joost van Baal-Ilić asked a related question: what do the candidates think about having a single legal entity to represent Debian worldwide? Pierre-Elliott Bécue, the treasurer of Debian France, followed that question with more detailed inquiries about statements in Chandran's platform.

In her platform, Chandran wrote that she would like to revisit the relationship with Debian's trusted organizations (TOs) that hold its funds and to explore having more TOs instead of a "dependency on one or two", which she identified as a problem while organizing DebConf23. Bécue wrote that he had a "certain memory" of a TO that "disappeared with Debian assets", and observed that it is already difficult managing three TOs. He wondered how more would be an improvement.

Chandran said that she was aware of the TO's disappearance and that "having TOs with just 1-2 people responsible is a warning sign". She wrote that if more TOs were appointed, "it would be ensured that there is a team of people and a good governing structure before committing," and agreements with TOs that "show signs of collapse" would be revoked. Regular reporting, she said, would be a requirement for any new TOs.

Bécue had complained that SPI held 90% of Debian's assets and that he spends "more than 30 to 50%" of his time as treasurer dealing with SPI because it is "very slow to process things". What, he wanted to know, "do we inten[d] to do about it?"

She responded that having the bulk of Debian assets in a single TO "is like putting all the eggs in one basket" and that her platform suggestion of more TOs would balance that. "I know this would be a herculean task, but I would like to at least get it started."

Tille did not respond to Bécue's questions, but did address the idea of Debian becoming a legal entity. He suggested that if a person or persons felt strongly that Debian should have its own legal entity, they should take the lead:

We are a Do-o-cracy. The person who does the job can decide what gets done. Those who really strongly believe that a legal entity is the answer to major problems in Debian might run this effort, find consensus to run a GR changing the [constitution] - whatever seems to be necessary. If we do not find competent volunteers this will not happen.

Personally I decided to become a [physicist] and not a lawyer since I consider the laws of physics simple, easy to describe and perfectly able to verify in practice. This is all very distinct to the laws we have given [ourselves] in society and I'm no expert in the latter. Thus I simply feel not comfortable in giving statements about things I do not full understand.

Instead, Tille wrote, he would like to focus on technical problems he sees and that he understands. His time to devote to being DPL is limited, he noted, so he would decide to focus on areas where he feels competent and more efficient. "I will not stop others solving additional problems and if those people manage to convince me that it is important for Debian I might support this."

Hardware and cloud

Thomas Goirand wanted to know if the candidates would consider, for example, spending $100,000 on "a new Debian cloud". In addition, he asked about spending a similar amount to provide more build servers and systems for reproducible builds.

Carter replied that he didn't want to take attention away from the candidates, but noted that the DSA team had recently filed a request for up to $160,000 for upgrades. He said that "every single hardware request over the last 4 years (whether from DSA or from a DD) has been approved".

Chandran expressed concern about having enough volunteers to take on maintenance of services like Goirand's cloud. "If we do not have a enough volunteers to handle them, it will result in burnout and eventually the services die." She suggested taking up the topic after the elections to evaluate pros and cons before making a commitment. She was more favorable toward spending money on hardware for existing teams and services, but suggested deferring to a discussion with DSA before making decisions.

For his part, Tille said that he had no use case for a Debian cloud but is "perfectly open" to a discussion but it would need to have a "real team" and not a one-person team to care for it. He said that he would be happy to spend money on hardware infrastructure, as long as there are people to "do the actual grunt work of buying, installing and maintaining the hardware". Paying a cloud provider directly for some services instead of trying to build a Debian cloud might be an answer to Tille's personnel requirements, although he said it would need to be discussed and what could be delegated to cloud providers and what needed to be hosted by Debian.

Bandwidth challenges

Patra had a second question for the candidates, this time about addressing bandwidth challenges. Patra observed that teams in Debian "struggle with limited developer time" and that many teams have as few as three or four people sharing the burden, in some cases only one person. This "can lead to exhaustion, burnouts" and can lead to stale packages and other work stagnating when people become busy with real life. Did the candidates have a strategy for addressing this?

Tille responded that he considered this "a crucial problem" and one of the tasks of the DPL to identify areas where work is not sustainable. Step zero, he said, was for one-person teams to admit there is a problem. He pointed out that this does not always work. He cited an example of asking for help with R packaging, but the only response was "two further confirmations of time constraints". But the first step had to be admitting there is a problem, and advertising it:

In general I believe that a DPL is limited in effectiveness if people don't [do] that step zero. It seems that within Debian, there are individuals with exceptional technical skills who may also experience a syndrome where they feel they are the sole individuals capable to do certain tasks. This might make step one even harder: Document what you are doing, seeking actively for more team members and teach them kindly.

This step is time-consuming, especially for individuals with significant time constraints. Investing time without a clear vision of success poses a challenge - ensuring that the new team member can effectively handle the pending tasks while also committing to the role for a long time to make it really sustainable.

He added that he had "no good idea" how to fully solve this problem within a volunteer organization like Debian. Tille did raise the idea of paying people from Debian funds to help take on important work, but said it would be better "if we could convince companies to pay Debian developers and permit them to use their [payed] time to spent on Debian tasks than paying single persons from Debian funds". Chandran has not yet responded to the bandwidth question.

Decision time

The voting period begins on April 6 and ends on April 19. The term for the new DPL begins on April 21 and runs for one year. No matter who wins, the incoming DPL will have no shortage of work to be done.



to post comments

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 5, 2024 20:42 UTC (Fri) by jhe (subscriber, #164815) [Link] (23 responses)

Regarding Chandran's Platform: Judging people by their gender is insensitive, not cool. I'm sorry if people need more people of the same gender around to feel comfortable, but the resulting us-vs-other thinking is not helpful.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 5, 2024 20:56 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (6 responses)

> I'm sorry if people need more people of the same gender around to feel comfortable, but the resulting us-vs-other thinking is not helpful.

Us-vs-other is the foundation of nearly all human social interactions.

And it works great....until it doesn't.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 12:56 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (5 responses)

Actually, "us AND other" works much better.

I believe it's known as "forgiving tit-for-tat" in game theory, and it's pretty much the best strategy.

What seems to work quite well in my marriage is we both - openly - acknowledge that if just one of us has strong feelings about something, that automatically wins. And it resolves pretty much all of our disputes.

Where we both have strong feelings it can get tricky, but then we know we have to compromise. And it plays into my other comment about "win win" - we know we have a win-win marriage.

Cheers,
Wol

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 20:04 UTC (Sat) by Heretic_Blacksheep (guest, #169992) [Link] (2 responses)

The elephant in the room is in order to reach a compromise, both people have to also lose. When egos step in, any loss becomes a problem. Despite the western disdain for the concept of "saving face", that's exactly what's going on. People have to be able to compromise, and both lose something as well as win something, but not appear to do so in a way that's humiliating.

A person's gender or sexual preferences should have nothing to do with their capabilities to contribute to technical projects. Misogyny shouldn't be tolerated. "Don't be a jerk." Religion, politics, superstition, social norms, and tradition aren't excuses for being awful to other people. Ever. Forwards or backwards.

For an example of language being a vehicle for innate prejudices I leave you with a concept so rarely considered: in English "right" is often used as a synonym for "correct" and the correctness of behavior: "the right thing to do", "he did it right", "right honorable". "Left" often has negative connotations: "left behind", "left to themselves", etc. If you're right handed you may never have noticed the inherit social prejudice this implies, but if you're left handed, you may have contemplated it while having to deal with being left handed in a right handed world. FWIW, I'm left handed, and pointing this out as recently as 3 years ago in a mandatory college orientation "diversity" unit got me an "F" on an essay, but I stand by my assertion as handedness is one form of bias and superstition (mostly as a bad connotation) across many cultures, historical and current, including the US. With the ubiquity of electronic devices for note taking, neutral handed tables are more the norm in lecture halls, but you still see the unconscious handedness bias practically everywhere. My point is falling back on semantics fails to recognize inherent prejudices using language to reinforce itself. Living languages naturally change over time. Sometimes that's for the better. It harms no one to be nice to another person.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 21:01 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

> The elephant in the room is in order to reach a compromise, both people have to also lose. When egos step in, any loss becomes a problem.

Which is why you have to see it as a trade. I get something I value in return for something I don't especially value. And because you have different values, you get the same.

> For an example of language being a vehicle for innate prejudices I leave you with a concept so rarely considered: in English "right" is often used as a synonym for "correct" and the correctness of behavior: "the right thing to do", "he did it right", "right honorable". "Left" often has negative connotations: "left behind", "left to themselves", etc.

Unfortunately, this is where political correctness goes mad. Language is going to be prejudiced - it's just in the nature of things. If you ban talking about prejudice, you encourage it! And English especially enables massive amounts of prejudice. Because it's nicked so much language from elsewhere. You go on about right meaning correct - did you also know that left is sinister?

It gets even worse where words are perfectly okay in one dialect, and prejudiced/offensive in another ...

Cheers,
Wol

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 21:11 UTC (Sat) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> You go on about right meaning correct - did you also know that left is sinister?

It's like this in Arabic (and for Muslims in general) as well -- For example, one is supposed to eat with their right hand but (ahem) clean oneself with the left. Which makes sense when you consider this was proscribed in a culture where fresh water was scarce and soap was still very much a luxury.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 9, 2024 15:47 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (1 responses)

> I believe it's known as "forgiving tit-for-tat" in game theory, and it's pretty much the best strategy.

Note the context where it is best: iterated prisoner's dilemma. Not all problems are analogous nor are they iterated.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 9, 2024 18:26 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

But in the context of this discussion (social interaction) it is proven to be the best strategy. It creates a cohesive society, even in the presence of bad actors.

Cheers,
Wol

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 0:01 UTC (Sat) by willy (subscriber, #9762) [Link] (2 responses)

https://twitter.com/mcuban/status/1775242637131350294

(While a volunteer organization is not a for-profit company, I believe the same dynamic is at play; a diverse set of opinions and experience leads to better decision making)

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 19, 2024 16:59 UTC (Fri) by sammythesnake (guest, #17693) [Link] (1 responses)

For the benefit of others who like me would target not visit another site to see a paragraph of text:

Mark Cuban
@mcuban
First of all my arguments are not abstract.

I own or invest in hundreds of companies. I know DEI is a positive because I see it's impact on bottom lines. Thats been reiterated by many CEOs.

My definitions of D,E and I are not theoretical. They are actually used. Are yours ?

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 19, 2024 17:00 UTC (Fri) by sammythesnake (guest, #17693) [Link]

Sorry, didn't catch the whole thing(!)

[continued]
You have sides. I don't.

I'm an entrepreneur and capitalist. I look for results. That's what I base my decisions on.

Every single person on Twitter could disagree with me. I would still follow the results I see in my portfolio.

Christopher and Jordan, you are running your businesses, building a community, and selling to it. This platform is a target rich environment for you.
You sell hard. As you should.

I respect your efforts. I may vehemently disagree with your positions, but I respect entrepreneurial grind and always will.

But Twitter is not reflective of the real world

Bottom line -
I'll keep on stating my positions on here specifically because they are the opposite of yours, Elon's and others

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 3:38 UTC (Sat) by Paf (subscriber, #91811) [Link] (1 responses)

Ah yes, well, you know - everything in society with regards to gender and gender relations is equal and there are, of course, no differences in outcomes or, really, anything based on gender, so we shouldn't talk about any of that. It's not cool, anyway, since asking why there aren't women around means you're saying men are bad. Ah well - it's OK, there's a whole world of people who think like you. They're nearly all men for some strange reason, but that's fine too. We shouldn't judge them on that basis.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 9:53 UTC (Sat) by jhe (subscriber, #164815) [Link]

Can you build your argument on something else than whatever you assume as my gender? This is what i was criticizing.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 6:52 UTC (Sat) by chris_se (subscriber, #99706) [Link] (5 responses)

I'm left-handed. Last I read up on that around 20% of the population are also left-handed. If I was part of an organization with a significant amount of people, but other than me only one or two other people were left-handed, I'd feel very weird about that, because to me that indicates that some type of bias is in play here. And while I don't think that every group needs to match the demographics of the entire population exactly, I believe that skews as extreme as this are indicative of some degree of unhealthiness.

Granted, some (or even many) of the reasons behind this might not lie within the group itself, but larger societal factors may be at play. I studied physics at university, and while there are certainly things to be improved within that field, my female classmates also reported that they experienced much more pressure to study something else from non-physicists than I or my male classmates ever did.

The way I see it, the fact that in tech in general women are so underrepresented is a problem. That doesn't mean that there's necessarily a cabal of evil men keeping women out, or that the people who are currently in tech are morally culpable - it just means that we should work on fixing that problem.

(Though to be clear, historically there have been tons examples of men keeping women out maliciously - think back to women having to fight to get the right to vote. And it's clear that you can still find some examples in tech where this is still happening to this day, though thankfully this has decreased over time. The point of my reply was that even when that type of explicit dynamic is not at play, you can still end up with unhealthy group demographics.)

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 7:07 UTC (Sat) by timrichardson (subscriber, #72836) [Link]

India is much more progressive. 50% of STEM graduates are women.
Linux market share is really high, in a big and economically growing country.
The observation that there are only 2 DDs from India indicates a missed opportunity, and if more Indian DDs arrive in the project and they don't include a fair share of women, the problem is with Debian, I'd say. On the facts, the Indian candidate is right to highlight this missed opportunity. So many problems are solved with more contributors, we read, and here is an answer apparently ripe for the picking. The Indian candidate sounds well networked in India too, and she seems to be a good communicator.

Anyway, two good and different candidates.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/jobs/hr-policies-tre...

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 8:46 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (3 responses)

> The way I see it, the fact that in tech in general women are so underrepresented is a problem. That doesn't mean that there's necessarily a cabal of evil men keeping women out, or that the people who are currently in tech are morally culpable - it just means that we should work on fixing that problem.

The fact that society does not see it as a woman's field is the problem. A lot of the pressure keeping women out of tech comes from *other women* as you say.

Okay, I'm going back years, but I was the only boy studying GCE Latin in my year. Languages was (still is?) seen as a girl's subject.

And in my brother's year (the one after me) it stood out massively, because it was the only year boys outnumbered girls in both Latin, and non-exam Dom Sci. My brother wanted to do them, and he didn't want to do them on his own, so he pressured his mates into doing it.

The big problem, is peer pressure at school. It's far too late to correct things after that.

Cheers,
Wol

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 18, 2024 12:20 UTC (Thu) by dvandeun (guest, #24273) [Link] (2 responses)

Studying the classics was of course the right and proper thing for boys to do for centuries, until science turned out to lead to better jobs in the modern age.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 18, 2024 15:09 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

Studying the classics still is the right and proper thing to do.

Philosophy (aka Science and Maths) so you can think straight. Classics so you can communicate straight. You need to be competent at both. Dunno the stats, but before Comp Sci was a thing, the majority of computer programmer people had Classics/Languages degrees rather than Maths degrees, I believe...

I might have mentioned this before, but somebody decided to do a study (in the light of all these "why do we still teach classics" news stories). They picked a school, and a random cohort, and contacted *every* classics student from the cohort they could track down.

Typical response rate from an "out of the blue" study like that is - what - about 5%? They got more like 95%. And pretty much EVERY response was along the lines of "classics is one of the most influential subjects I studied". That's true for me, too, by the way.

Another wonderful quote from the letters page of a national newspaper - "I didn't send my son to school to learn to cook. I sent him to school to study eg the classics, so he could read a recipe book and follow the instructions".

Cheers,
Wol

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 19, 2024 13:18 UTC (Fri) by dvandeun (guest, #24273) [Link]

I do agree with you on the value of the classics. I studied classics first, and computer science later myself. I just wanted to point out that attitudes had changed because of economic factors; our ancestors might find it quite strange that we nowadays think that "the classics are for girls and science is for boys".

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 9:52 UTC (Sat) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [Link] (2 responses)

You're the one who made it an us-vs-them here. What she said is very explicity us-*and*-them.

I don't know what it says that you think that's an attack on you. But in a way it does prove the point :)

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 12:50 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

The problem is far too many people think in "zero sum" terms. If you can change your mindset to "win-win", ESPECIALLY "how do I get what I want by giving you what you want", then everyone is much better off.

Cheers,
Wol

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 19:11 UTC (Sat) by jhe (subscriber, #164815) [Link]

Where did i use some group reference or othering? Were you replying to the right person?

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 14:16 UTC (Sat) by ianmcc (subscriber, #88379) [Link]

This kind of comment, obviously coming from someone who has never had cause to feel uncomfortable about the gender skew of people around them (until now?!), is why Chandran's cause exists. I wish her well. I suspect she has a thick skin, or she wouldn't be where she is now. But she will need it.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 8, 2024 9:01 UTC (Mon) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

Having spent 1 year in high school as the only male in class… I fully appreciate that it's not the most convenient situation to be in.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 6:09 UTC (Sat) by Curan (subscriber, #66186) [Link] (1 responses)

Trust is an important aspect of any election. And her I did meet Andreas and talk to him in person before. I am sure he will not remember me, but Andreas is an awesome person. When I saw he ran my decision was clear and obvious.

Hopefully I can meet Andreas again and talk to him.

I am sure Sruthi Chandran would be an awesome DPL too, but I never met him in person. Which is why I will pick Andreas.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 6, 2024 16:34 UTC (Sat) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link]

You never met "him"?

Owch.

No legal entity yet?

Posted Apr 6, 2024 8:26 UTC (Sat) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (9 responses)

I'm very surprised that Debian has lasted this long without it's own legal entity. Linux.conf.au was setup so the conference didn't have to run from Rusty's credit card. Yet Debian does and owns a lot more.

The important thing is that the legal structure needs to serve the organisation, not the other way round. An afternoon with a financial advisor can be very illuminating.

From my experience I'd imagine a foundation, that has a number of wholly owned "working businesses", one for each region (US, EU, APAC, etc) as necessary. The parent foundation has the money and income, and the working businesses the assets and contracts. These working businesses would have "directors" appointed by the DPL and an administrative office to handle all the legal and financial filings.

The word "director" conjures up visions of large paychecks but that doesn't have to be the case. In these kinds of constructions the director would be merely acting as the legal proxy of the parent foundation and is sometimes a volunteer position. You could in theory appoint the same person everywhere (the Project Secretary perhaps?) but for various reasons it's useful to have someone local.

In any case, I think the open source community has some experience in this area. This seems like a perfectly feasible goal.

No legal entity yet?

Posted Apr 6, 2024 9:47 UTC (Sat) by pm215 (subscriber, #98099) [Link] (2 responses)

Wikipedia says Software in the Public Interest "was originally created to allow the Debian Project to accept donations" in 1997, so it seems to me there's already a legal entity here doing the kind of things the project would want one for -- it just happens not to be project-exclusive.

No legal entity yet?

Posted Apr 6, 2024 20:32 UTC (Sat) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (1 responses)

So if SPI was setup for the purpose of supporting Debian, why isn't it working anymore? Surely their role in this is relevant?

No legal entity yet?

Posted Apr 6, 2024 21:07 UTC (Sat) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

SPI is still holding fund for Debian. There are also other similar organizations in other countries that holds fund for Debian to avoid international money transfer.

No legal entity yet?

Posted Apr 6, 2024 11:24 UTC (Sat) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (5 responses)

There are several legal entities holding funds for Debian in different countries.
However a Debian foundation would be a political nightmare. Developers living in the country
where the foundation is registered would be at a big advantage over others.

No legal entity yet?

Posted Apr 6, 2024 12:13 UTC (Sat) by gioele (subscriber, #61675) [Link]

> However a Debian foundation would be a political nightmare. Developers living in the country where the foundation is registered would be at a big advantage over others.

Do KDE developers in Germany have big advantages over other developers because KDE e.V. is registered in Berlin?

No legal entity yet?

Posted Apr 6, 2024 16:14 UTC (Sat) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link] (3 responses)

Lots of projects have foundations or other legal entities in specific countries. I'm aware that sometimes this limits contributions or interactions (e.g., if an entity is in the U.S., it may be reluctant or very careful about accepting contributions from people in a handful of other countries), but I'm not really aware of any "big advantage" for developers. Could you elaborate?

No legal entity yet?

Posted Apr 7, 2024 2:33 UTC (Sun) by PengZheng (subscriber, #108006) [Link] (2 responses)

The move of the Eclipse Foundation to Europe is not for no reasons.

No legal entity yet?

Posted Apr 7, 2024 15:29 UTC (Sun) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (1 responses)

Near as I can tell they did that because most of the business was already in Europe and they saw that domiciling themselves in Europe gives them an edge in areas they would not have in the US.

They also explicitly note that for *developers* it doesn't matter very much, and most people won't even notice since most of the actual work was already done by Eclipse Foundation-USA and Eclipse Foundation Europe GmbH. It mostly affects the members.

So, mostly a marketing ploy with practical benefits?

No legal entity yet?

Posted Apr 8, 2024 2:59 UTC (Mon) by PengZheng (subscriber, #108006) [Link]

My point is exactly what you said, i.e. it affects employers of developers, considering the current tense geopolitical relations. Of course, for foundations like Apache, which encourages more individual rather than corporate participation, it does not matter very much for developers.

A look at the 2024 Debian Project Leader election

Posted Apr 11, 2024 14:41 UTC (Thu) by peb (subscriber, #123687) [Link]

Small correction:

I'm not spending 30% to 50% of my time dealing with SPI, but I spend 30% to 50% of my Debian Time dealing with Debian France treasurer's activities. And SPI's slowness is part of the reason I have to spend that much time, because contrary to them I try to handle stuff as promptly as my free time permits.


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