Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 15, 2024 17:28 UTC (Fri) by mb (subscriber, #50428)
In reply to: Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++ by Wol
Parent article: Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Oh wow. They "stole" it. Wow.
They "stole" and open source project. How? By making the original author step back? Oh pardon, by "expelling" him?
I guess many people then also stole my old projects that I don't maintain anymore and I stepped back from.

Maybe you want to read this?
https://www.theregister.com/2020/01/21/rust_actix_web_fra...

To me that reads more like: "One driver on the wrong side of the road? No! Thousands!"

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 15, 2024 23:41 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (22 responses)

> Oh wow. They "stole" it. Wow.

How else would you describe driving the original author out?

> I guess many people then also stole my old projects that I don't maintain anymore and I stepped back from.

There's a big difference between taking over an abandoned project, and muscling in on a project that the creator is actively working on.

Even your own quote supports paulj's claim that the author was "driven out". This project does NOT appear to be an abandoned project.

I've been there done that - I had a project taken over by someone else. Okay, I couldn't find time to work on it, this other guy did, and while I didn't like what he did I abide by "he who writes the code, calls the tune". But if it was this guy's project, and he was actively working on it, then I don't think "stealing" is wrong word for forcing him out.

Cheers,
Wol

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 15, 2024 23:55 UTC (Fri) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link] (1 responses)

>How else would you describe driving the original author out?

Renewal.
Obsolete opinions die.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 16, 2024 22:11 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

So, to put it bluntly, you don't care if your computer runs like sloth on tranquilisers?

Cheers,
Wol

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 16, 2024 0:28 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (19 responses)

> There's a big difference between taking over an abandoned project, and muscling in on a project that the creator is actively working on.

No one ever did that. The author refused to play by rules. And when pressure have reached the boiling level, instead of doing the sensible thing, he decided to destroy everything.

Later he acquiesced and instead of pulling QB64-style collapse just transferred maintainership to the people who do play by rules.

> This project does NOT appear to be an abandoned project.

It was abandoned at some point. By it's author. Only after that happened discussion about continuing maintainership by other people started.

The hope was always that he would decide to take rules seriously, not that he would abandon it's own (and quite successful) project, but, apparently, for him benchmark games were more important than safety.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 16, 2024 10:57 UTC (Sat) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (18 responses)

He abandoned it after being subjected to a campaign of _abuse_ and bullying.

That you and mb think that kind of behaviour is acceptable, indeed you appear to be _celebrating_ it, suggests the "Rust community" has learned _nothing_ from that episode - so far as your comments are representative.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 16, 2024 11:06 UTC (Sat) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link] (12 responses)

Stop it. Now.
I have *never* said that abuse and bullying is acceptable. Abuse and bullying is never acceptable, if course.

I just disagree with you whether this case *is* abuse or bullying.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 16, 2024 22:15 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (9 responses)

Then may I suggest you read the Register article you pointed the rest of us at!!!

That is quite clear that he was bullied - words like "unsafe shitstorm"?

Classic troll behaviour - to argue thing, and claim articles support you when in fact they say the complete opposite.

The fact other people found his project useful, does not give them the right to demand he change his priorities to suit them. If they want to fork it to achieve their personal objectives, then fine. That they think it acceptable to abuse him for disagreeing with them is not.

Cheers,
Wol

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 16, 2024 22:34 UTC (Sat) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link] (8 responses)

> Then may I suggest you read the Register article you pointed the rest of us at!!!

I actually read the article and also the communication he did on github.
That all confirmed that he is not a victim but rather a very unprofessionally acting person, to say it mildly.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 17, 2024 0:40 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (7 responses)

Care to give examples of this communication?

Also, given this was a personal project of his, and (AFAIK) he was doing this for his own enjoyment and fun, how can you characterise it as "unprofessional"?

You are projecting your own notions of what /you/ like for /your/ projects, onto the _personal_ time of other authors of Free Software, and you are _inventing_ obligations for said other Free Software authors that do not exist. They _do not exist_ in the licence, nor is it in any way sane to think that someone publishing some of their work as Free Software somehow encumbers them with /obligations/ to write the code the way /random others/ _demand_.

If you want to call the tune, pay the piper. Get a support contract. Pay them money. Put food on their table. _Then_ you have a _small_ and /limited/ right to expect something in return.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 17, 2024 0:43 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Oh, and most of all, whether a user has paid the author or not, the user of someone else's Free Software *never* has the right to be rude, never mind abusive, to that Free Software author.

That user has an *obligation* to be _polite_, and thankful. Especially if they havn't contributed a thing to said author.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 17, 2024 7:30 UTC (Sun) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link] (5 responses)

> Care to give examples of this communication?

Has already been posted here.

> If you want to call the tune, pay the piper.

So people who contribute their free time for the removal of unsafe code must pay money so that their pull request gets handled professionally?

> onto the _personal_ time of other authors

Do you realize that this is also true for the rejected contributors and the users?

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 17, 2024 12:09 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (4 responses)

They can pay money, if the author is amenable. Otherwise they can simply say "Thanks for writing the code! Here's a fork we've made with out changes. Thanks again!".

See? Just fork, and be thankful. How is that hard? How _anything but that_ the right answer?

In particular, how is "Launch a campaign of abuse, to pressure the author into withdrawing from their own, personal project" acceptable?

What khim calls "ostracism" is implementable only through online bullying in an online world.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 17, 2024 12:29 UTC (Sun) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link] (3 responses)

That's sane behavior, if you are living under a stone.

>Launch a campaign of abuse, to pressure the author

Please read the authors responses to the PRs.
The author is not the victim.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 17, 2024 12:33 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (2 responses)

Can you provide a link, so we can be certain we're looking at the same thing?

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 19, 2024 22:10 UTC (Tue) by ms-tg (subscriber, #89231) [Link] (1 responses)

Hi @paulj, I'm not the person you were responding to, but here are some examples I found by following other links, in case that makes is easier:

2019 - Originally rejected fix PRs that explain and remove UB or other soundness issues
https://github.com/actix/actix-web/pull/968
https://github.com/actix/actix-web/pull/822
https://github.com/actix/actix-web/pull/335 (note reverted after merged)

2018 - Original response to "why 100 uses of unsafe without clear documentation of safety"
https://github.com/actix/actix-web/issues/289

I make no guarantee that these are the best examples, just a few I turned up.

Also please note, for contrast, the many fixes that went in just after the maintainer transition on Jan 20 2020, e.g.
https://github.com/actix/actix-web/pull/1303
https://github.com/actix/actix-web/pull/1328

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 20, 2024 10:37 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

The author's replies do not seem unreasonable in any cases there. Unless you define "did not merge all of the changes" as unreasonable - which would be an unreasonable definition.

Anyway, let's leave it.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 17, 2024 0:34 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

I have to admit, I do not have the time - or inclination - to go back through all the reddit and github discussions.

However, the author's own characterisation of matters is that he received "abuse". Even summaries of what happened by /critics/ of the author that I find on reddit suggest "some" of the other criticisms (e.g. in reddit discussions) went too far. There is a suggestion that there were even "death threats" - by 2nd or 3rd hand sources I have read, I don't know how true.

Just in this LWN discussion - long after the fact, in a much more sober and considered and forum than reddit - the author has been described as an "offender", as "someone who refuses to follow the rules", and that "to do something about that". Admittedly just one commentator here, though it seems you also approve of the notion that "something" must be done to ostracise such people and expel them.

Again, we are talking about a guy who just published his /own/ software, to his /own/ Github account - who had nothing to do with any core Rust group. Who did nothing but give the world a high-performance web framework. And, events since (the author still maintains the code, now under another name, and it apparently beats the pants off the "community" [neutered?] version) suggest that this author actually knows something about making code perform.

I think the bullying was totally unacceptable, and I think some of the views being posted in this article in support of the campaign to "ostracise" an author of free software - i.e. effectively condoning abuse and bullying, even if you claim to be against it - are a stain on Free Software.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 17, 2024 15:45 UTC (Sun) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> Again, we are talking about a guy who just published his /own/ software, to his /own/ Github account - who had nothing to do with any core Rust group.

Comparing his _personal_ project to the city of Athens is indeed way beyond ridiculous. If the core Rust group wants to "ostracize" disrupting people then great. But policing the entire Internet is not ancient Greece; it's the KGB.

Having to share space and live together is hard. The beauty of "forking" and the Internet in general is: there is an infinite amount of space and freedom available. No need to artificially import limitations from the real world.

BTW this is why the decision to remove "thumbs down" on social media and other sites is so good. If you don't like something, explain why and create something better in _your_ space and try to convince users and get more "thumbs up". Don't come and pollute other people's space.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 16, 2024 11:12 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

> That you and mb think that kind of behaviour is acceptable, indeed you appear to be _celebrating_ it, suggests the "Rust community" has learned _nothing_ from that episode - so far as your comments are representative.

Actually Rust community have learned which things work and which things don't work. Which means it has a chance to survive.

But I guess the majority of people in the first world just don't understand how things work.

Well, coming collapse of EU, rivers of blood in Europe and smaller pools of the same substance in US would reeducate them… I just wish there was an easier way to teach people… but it looks like nothing else works.

> He abandoned it after being subjected to a campaign of _abuse_ and bullying.

If you portray the demands not to disable security alarms and to keep fuses functional “abuse” then I don't even know what to say.

The analogue to what Kim did would be creation of bridge without safety rails or building major mall without regard to regulations which demand that it should survive an eathquake.

If you do that in real world you may easily go to jail, in virtual world Kim just had to step down and he still got keep it's own fork which he may still play with… how is that “abuse”?

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 16, 2024 11:20 UTC (Sat) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [Link] (3 responses)

I can't say how representive this is, probably more prevalent in the long tail than I'd like, but I at least have been silently reading this discussion with a mixture of bewilderment and disgust.

I feel like this sort of thing is an area where there is a huge disconnect between people actually involved with the rust project or any projects of note (like e.g. Steve Klabnik, who condemned this strongly in the blog post linked) and a certain genre of poster especially prevalent on places like reddit, where this kicked off. It's really the usual contept culture stuff we see all day in all programming communities[1], but it's really disheartening to see from a community that I feel should be able to do better. It doesn't help that people feel emboldened and righteous by how genuinely important of a cause memory safety is either.

[1] If anyone hasn't read it yet: https://blog.aurynn.com/2015/12/16-contempt-culture/

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 16, 2024 12:19 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (2 responses)

> I feel like this sort of thing is an area where there is a huge disconnect between people actually involved with the rust project or any projects of note (like e.g. Steve Klabnik, who condemned this strongly in the blog post linked) and a certain genre of poster especially prevalent on places like reddit, where this kicked off.

How do you know there's a disconnect? I'm pretty sure that Steve is genuine in his grief. He is just not the person who would do things like that. I don't think he ever objected to what Kim is doing, publicly or privately.

But how do you know what others are thinking? I know for the fact that many of them would be fired if they would say what Redditers easily say… and you want to say that people placed in this position are the ones words of whom we should trust?

I consider Reddit posts closer to what people actually think: on Reddit people may say things without fear of retaliation because Reddit doesn't give others an easy way to use DIE department of speaker's company to silence said speaker.

Yet Reddit does give an option to silence people who stray out of the line. And if you go against the majority you would be silenced. But that wouldn't be because one person who hates your guts used the evidence that your are not “tolerant enough” against you.

Thus that easy threat: be nice even to the guys who may destroy your community or else you would be fired? That's not possible on Reddit. Or LWN for that matter.

But that's only not possible for people who keep their real identity separated from your Reddit (or LWN) identity. Once someone knows who you are… DIE departments are always watching. These are the real uncontrollable Inquisition that accelerate the downfall of the modern society that they supposedly serve.

You couldn't trust a word of anyone who is under threat to DIE from his words.

P.S. That's why I celebrate what Rust achieved there. 20 or maybe even 10 years ago it wouldn't have been an achievement. But today, when voices of everyone who may act as authority and stop language abuse easily are forcibly silenced… to do what Rust community managed to achieve is not easy.

Herb Sutter on increasing safety in C++

Posted Mar 16, 2024 22:23 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> P.S. That's why I celebrate what Rust achieved there. 20 or maybe even 10 years ago it wouldn't have been an achievement. But today, when voices of everyone who may act as authority and stop language abuse easily are forcibly silenced… to do what Rust community managed to achieve is not easy.

So you're happy celebrating a witch hunt. The ONLY thing this guy did wrong was to publish his pet project in the hope that other people would find it useful. And he got loads of abuse from people who thought what he was trying to achieve was conpletely unacceptable. I sure as hell hope you enjoy being a witch-finder. Because hell is where witch-finders are likely to end up.

Unfortunately, this is just the "me me me" politically correct and toxic side of Free Software. I just wish we could kick that out ...

Cheers,
Wol

This might be a good stopping point

Posted Mar 17, 2024 6:29 UTC (Sun) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

This post suggests we're reaching (if not going beyond) the point where it might be a good idea to wind down this conversation. I don't think there's much more to be said that might change anybody's mind.