Quotes of the week
Quotes of the week
Posted Feb 8, 2024 12:26 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252)Parent article: Quotes of the week
It's really funny how skewed Theo perception is: ultra-luxury, something that very-very-VERY few developers everywhere (both in software development and outside, too!) may afford is seen as “normal” by him.
Of course that was always the difference between academy research and production, but Theo and OpenBSD, nonetheless, pretend that what they are doing is not a research but actual production development… and there are even some rare people who actually use what he produces directly.
I wonder how many of them are out there (if you exclude ones who use OpenBSD research in the explicitly productized form, like usually happens with OpenSSH).
Posted Feb 8, 2024 13:03 UTC (Thu)
by timon (subscriber, #152974)
[Link] (48 responses)
> ultra-luxury, something that very few developers may afford is seen as normal by him
Posted Feb 8, 2024 15:02 UTC (Thu)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (47 responses)
The ability to apply change to tens of thousands of consumers and then, later, if needed, change it. Not even developers who are using the monorepo have such luxury, most of the time: if you add some new interface you then, usually, start long and arduous process of applying such change to consumers, one consumer at time. And if it was subtly wrong then you face decade or two of slow deprecation-and-replacement processes. Most of the time even APIs that are not formally defined, subtly wrong or incomplete they still can not be changed easily (here's just the recent example) and that is what is considered the norm by most developers. Look around you: how many adapters (between US and EU plugs, e.g.), various converters (which you know about and don't know about, too) and so on are around you? That's Linux-style development, not OpenBSD style for sure!
Posted Feb 8, 2024 16:07 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (45 responses)
And how many different EU plugs are there? AT LEAST three, and I think more. I gather us Brits actually tried to push for a uniform EU plug, so long as it protected our safety standards. At least one country has the earth pin in the socket, so you can plug a earth-requiring plug into a non-earthed socket ...
I think we're the only country that uses ring mains as a matter of course (so we can deliver 30 Amps over 16Amp wiring).
I'm fairly certain some other countries consider our setup a bit OTT, and they have decent setups of their own, but while we were happy to accept a "let's take all the best bits and start from scratch" approach the others weren't interested.
Surely it can't be that hard. All new wiring installations would use the new back end standards. It would be legal to use any of the old or new sockets, but supply of old sockets would quickly get choked off. Conversion to new sockets would be encouraged, but old plugs would continue to be available for appliances and setups that had not been converted.
Very soon pretty much everything available for sale would be the new standard, but the old stuff would carry on working. And stuff would be compatible across the EU.
Cheers,
Posted Feb 8, 2024 17:35 UTC (Thu)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (11 responses)
As someone who has spent time both on the continent and in the Celtic Isles, $DEITY bless the British Standard plug and socket. Every time, here in the Celtic Isles, I walk past a home router, or any other device that needs a wall-wart transformer, and my footsteps on the floorboard do *not* cause the wall-wart to wobble slightly and break the connection and shut off the device, I give thanks to the designers of the BS plug. Every time, here in the Celtic Isles, I plug a wall-wart in, and I do *not* have to spend minutes very gently poking it to find /just/ the right balance point for the weight of the wall-wart and the internal connection so it /keeps/ a connection once I let go, I give thanks to the designers of the BS plug. Nor did I ever to worry when my kids were little about them curiously sticking metal stuff into live sockets.
Plugs and sockets in the USA and China are also ridiculously flimsy and wobbly. And unsafe for small children.
$DEITY bless the sturdy, robust, reliable, safe, BS plug and socket.
Posted Feb 15, 2024 9:32 UTC (Thu)
by kragil (guest, #34373)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted Feb 15, 2024 10:40 UTC (Thu)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (9 responses)
But read my first paragraph carefully: "The European plugs are an utter mess. This mess has led to the abomination of the "euro plug" - the minimal, lowest-common denominator plug that fits in all European 2-pin sockets.".
The problem is many devices will have the "Euro plug" (Type-C) I think. For wall-warts, this is moulded in and you can't just change the lead. The Type-F /theoretically/ might be as good, but when 90%+ of equipment comes with shitty Euro plugs (and 100% of retail electronics) that is kind of irrelevant. So when I give thanks for the BS plug and socket, that comment is made with *direct experience* of having lived in a country with Type-F "German" sockets!
I feel sorry for those who live outside of the Celtic Isles, wrt plug standards.
Posted Feb 15, 2024 13:18 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (8 responses)
Cheers,
Posted Feb 15, 2024 13:51 UTC (Thu)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (7 responses)
The problem is that the Type C plug fits Type E, Type F, Type H, Type J, Type K, Type L, Type N and Type O sockets to varying degrees of safety. There is thus no incentive to switch to Type F plugs for all devices for as long as the other socket types are in use somewhere in the world, since the Type C plug fits a Type F socket.
And this is basically the conclusion the EU has come to twice, when studying whether it should switch; if it was going to change, it'd standardise on Type N, but the cost of doing so is huge, and it will take a very long time to get to a point where you can insist on Type N plugs rather than Type C plugs on devices that want to be EU-wide.
Posted Feb 15, 2024 15:09 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (5 responses)
But you don't mandate a switch to type N plugs. Not yet at least. If they'd mandated a switch to type N *sockets* all those years ago, for all new installations, then we would be in a position to switch to type N plugs now. And how much would it cost, if the sale of all the old-style *sockets* were banned right now? Not much?
Pretty much all electrical stuff for the UK now seems to come with a BS and a C lead, give it 5 years or so before you mandate that all electrical stuff must include an N lead, and the shift would happen.
I've started (even without any government pressure - even with market anti-pressure) to switch my light fittings to ES - I just think it's so much more sensible, and physically (dunno about electrically) safer!
Put the *pressures* in place, and wait for the market to do its thing.
Cheers,
Posted Feb 15, 2024 15:27 UTC (Thu)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (4 responses)
If you don't mandate a switch to Type N plugs, then everyone will continue to use Type C plugs; the whole raison d'être of Type C (which is a plug without a matching socket) is to be usable with as many socket types as possible, and Type N is deliberately compatible with Type C as a design goal.
So, absent a mandated switch to Type N, we will have Type C plugs forever. There is no market pressure to switch away from Type C, because Type C plugs are safe by design with Type E, Type F, Type J, Type K and Type O sockets, and compatible at reduced safety with Type H, and Type L sockets. And Type N is the current best compromise standard; the only thing any other standard beats it on is safe support for undersized cables, where Type G does better.
Posted Feb 15, 2024 17:32 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (3 responses)
Everything (pretty much) remains compatible, N comes to dominate, then all the others vanish.
Cheers,
Posted Feb 15, 2024 17:57 UTC (Thu)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (2 responses)
But if you mandate a change to Type N sockets, then you require that anyone who has electrical work done replaces some of their appliances with new ones that have Type N plugs. So there's a strong reason to keep allowing people to use other types of sockets; but if you allow people to use other types of sockets, you can't mandate Type N without causing trouble for people who've not followed the mandate to move to Type N sockets (but have stuck with older socket types to keep using their existing appliances).
This means that you can't ban installation of other socket types in the home without upsetting people who can't keep their existing washing machine, vacuum cleaner, fan heater, or other appliance, since they don't have the skills to safely replace the plug or captive lead, and can't afford to pay both for new sockets and for new plugs installed by a professional. In practice, in the models the EU looked at 15 years ago, and the ones CENELEC looked at in the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s, you get a big "burp" of e-waste as people throw away perfectly good appliances because they've had a socket replaced, and so their 5 year old washing machine gets replaced early.
This is all well-studied - proposing things that the EU and CENELEC have both analysed in great detail is unproductive.
Posted Feb 15, 2024 18:10 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (1 responses)
Adapters exist... It's not like the voltage is changing.
Posted Feb 15, 2024 18:21 UTC (Thu)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link]
Firstly, adapters are not legal as a semi-permanent solution, for safety reasons; you could use one for your vacuum cleaner or fan heater, but your washing machine (which stays plugged in) needs a new plug.
In practice everyone ignores this, but a professional would not be allowed to recommend an adapter for you, since you are supposed to unplug the adapter from the socket when the matching appliance is not in use; this then has risks like people going out and buying adapters that are unsuitable for the appliance (e.g. I have a "universal" adapter that's unfused, limited by design to a maximum of 8A safely, but that has Type G - 13A - and Type E/F - 16A - socket and plug support).
Using a low current adapter with a high current device is a recipe for a fire, and indeed one of the reasons we now mandate that appliances are supplied with matching plugs (rather than bare wires and install your own plugs) is that people put unsuitable plugs onto appliances, resulting in fires; put a Type C (2.5A) on a washing machine that draws 10A, and while it'll plug into your Type E (16A) socket, it'll get dangerously hot, whereas a "proper" Type E or a Type E/F hybrid plug would have been fine.
Secondly, there's an appreciable amount of e-waste generated already by people who discard appliances as trash because they are cosmetically bad, even when they're fully working; the CENELEC and EU analyses both suggest that there's enough people who would consider "my vacuum cleaner needs an adapter" as reason to replace a perfectly working device.
Posted Feb 15, 2024 16:25 UTC (Thu)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
It would be madness for the Celtic Isle nations to deprecate the BS plug, and descend into the Euro plug mess.
We have a great standard. Safe, sturdy, reliable. Keep it.
Posted Feb 8, 2024 17:46 UTC (Thu)
by cesarb (subscriber, #6266)
[Link]
> Very soon pretty much everything available for sale would be the new standard, but the old stuff would carry on working. And stuff would be compatible across the EU.
We went through that here in Brazil some years ago; we migrated from a mix of plug and socket types (round pins, flat pins, the "computer" plugs which were the USA ones, "universal" sockets which accepted all of these, the strange "Argentinian plug" for air conditioners, and so on) to a single standard plug/socket type based on the proposed EU standard. After a migration period (which already ended), all new domestic wiring installations have to use the new socket type, and all new appliances available for sale have to use the new plug type. There are adapters available for old appliances or old sockets, but other than that, there's basically no supply of old sockets or plugs.
Posted Feb 8, 2024 18:08 UTC (Thu)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link]
Several countries got together in the early 1980s to produce IEC 60906-1 (1986), which was going to be the global plug standard. There was then a lot of arguing in CENELEC and in the EEC/EU about whether or not it was practical to adopt this, which came to the conclusion in 1995 that it was too expensive to switch everyone for too little gain. And then in 2017, the European Commission studied whether harmonization was worthwhile, and came to the conclusion that if the EU were to harmonize, IEC 60906-1 would be the answer, but that harmonization is impractical and costly (especially in terms of waste product), so should not happen.
So far, South Africa has adopted IEC 60906-1, and is using it as designed, but expects the transition to take at least 20 years; Brazil has a horrendous adaptation of IEC 60906-1 for its own local oddities (127V and 240V power, both 10A and 20A sockets and plugs where IEC 60906-1 says 230V power, 16A plugs and sockets), and that's it.
Posted Feb 9, 2024 16:25 UTC (Fri)
by smurf (subscriber, #17840)
[Link] (30 responses)
Yeah, but that's also the reason why you need to put fuses literally everywhere. :-P
Posted Feb 9, 2024 17:06 UTC (Fri)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (28 responses)
What's wrong with that? And what's wrong with ring mains that they require fuses like that?
I think the feed from the street is typically 60 Amps. So we have fuses in the supply board where that's stepped down to 30 (or 16) Amps. What's that got to do with the fact it's a ring main? You don't want 60Amps going down a 16/20Amp cable. IT'S DANGEROUS.
Then every plug needs a fuse where it's stepped down to 13Amps (and spurs need a fuse where it's stepped down to 16Amps. Typically that's a 13Amp fuse for simplicity if it's off a ring main. The supply board would have a 16Amp circuit breaker for a spur). Lighting spurs have a 5Amp fuse.
Are you saying that other countries are quite happy with 60Amps being allowed to flow - with no safety mechanism - into a typical domestic appliance like a hoover, or an electric shower, or something like that? *O* *M* *G*.
Cheers,
Posted Feb 9, 2024 17:52 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (25 responses)
Why? Only UK have fuses in the plugs. The majority of the world only have them in the place where 60 ambs is separated into thinner wires. Most other countries split 60 Amps into 3 or 4 lines 16Amps max. 20Amp for stove. And have 3 or 4 fuses there. One for each 16Amp line. That's it. Some devices have additional fuses (computers often have them), but it's entirely optional and not needed for safety.
Posted Feb 9, 2024 18:31 UTC (Fri)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link]
The wires have to be able to trip the nearest fuse on short circuit within a certain amount of time. And that must also happen without causing dangerous temperatures.
Posted Feb 9, 2024 19:12 UTC (Fri)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (23 responses)
> Why? Only UK have fuses in the plugs. The majority of the world only have them in the place where 60 ambs is separated into thinner wires.
So basically, it's EXACTLY the same as the UK. Everywhere you drop the ampage, you have a lower rated fuse. Oh - and in the UK once you leave the fuse box, everywhere is, I think, 20Amp wire until it leaves the house circuit.
And the reason for the ring main is, I can't remember the proof, but a ring main allows you to deliver more power, over a longer distance, with less copper.
> Some devices have additional fuses (computers often have them), but it's entirely optional and not needed for safety.
Try telling that to people who's houses have burnt down!
A portable radio needs, what, 0.2 Amps? What sort of damage is going to be caused by feeding 16Amps through it! These things are *supposed* to have a 3amp fuse (although often they have a 13). And they cause fires at regular intervals. One of the most famous examples being Windsor Castle. I think the Cutty Sark is another.
So it's very MUCH safety. Fires set furniture alight. Most furniture, if it burns, releases poison gas. Your sofa catches fire? You've probably got MINUTES to get out the house before you're dead from poisoning. Okay, most furniture is meant to be fire-resistant, but ...
Or what about expensive failures? You've gone away for a week, your radio in the kitchen fails (and they do), and takes out the fuse the day after you left. How much is that going to cost? You're probably looking at hundreds of pounds to fix all the damage.
You're welcome to think it's over the top. If I have an electrical problem, I'd rather it was confined to the smallest area possible, not taking out a large chunk of the house. I've had circuit breakers trip and take out a ring main. They cause grief. A LOT of grief. To me our regs give both safety and security. WELL WORTH IT.
Everything comes with fuses. We never even notice until something goes wrong. At which point, it's worth its weight in gold.
Cheers,
Posted Feb 9, 2024 19:44 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (22 responses)
How do you measure it? I couldn't find meaningful comparisons, but what I was able to find doesn't show UK superiority in that department. In fact most stats that could find say that fires are less of a problem for Norway or Germany than they are in UK. IOW: somehow “superior approach” with bazillion fuses everywhere that are designed to support wires that are too thin and weak to be usable in any other configuration don't provide extra-safety, but quite the opposite. Why would I have radio in the kitchen and why would it fail if I turn off power feed to my home when I'm leaving it for week?
Posted Feb 9, 2024 21:10 UTC (Fri)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
> Why would I have radio in the kitchen and why would it fail if I turn off power feed to my home when I'm leaving it for week?
You're clearly not married, then ...
Okay, I've got a tv in the kitchen, not a radio, but ...
You turn off the pwer to the house for a week ... what happens to contents of the fridge and freezer? What happens to the tropical fish? What happens to, well, I'm sure people can think of other things ... the insurance insists I leave my central heating on - which needs electric ...
(And no, most of that lot is not my choice. But I have a family. It's not my decision to make ...)
Cheers,
Posted Feb 9, 2024 21:19 UTC (Fri)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (20 responses)
> How do you measure it? I couldn't find meaningful comparisons, but what I was able to find doesn't show UK superiority in that department. In fact most stats that could find say that fires are less of a problem for Norway or Germany than they are in UK.
I said TO ME. I've never had a fire, and fires have never affected me (electrical fires, at least). I just don't want the entire house taken out, by an accident in, say, the garden. I would have thought that was obvious! And when that sort of thing DOES happen, it causes major grief!
So isolating a problem to the smallest possible area just MAKES SENSE. It makes sense for programming. It makes sense for electronics. Why shouldn't it make sense for household electrics!? (And with disabled people in the family, it's actually quite a serious issue - that HAS bitten me. BADLY!)
Cheers,
Posted Feb 10, 2024 17:15 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (19 responses)
Not always. It's all about the trade-offs. Same. It makes sense to do the sensible things and not to use, e.g. aluminium wires if you may afford copper. But putting bazillion fuses everywhere? That doesn't make sense. And it makes even less sense to insist that said fuses save anyone from anything unless we have proof. And no I feel myself safer when I have these is not an adequate reason: people's feelings about what is or is not working are, at best, unreliable and often flat out wrong.
Posted Feb 10, 2024 17:24 UTC (Sat)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (18 responses)
Come on. It's well understood how electricity works by 2024.
Posted Feb 10, 2024 17:37 UTC (Sat)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (17 responses)
It's only “that simple” when you ignore important parts of the problem. Then you have not one, but two solutions: And it's really not clear to me why do you believe having more potentially fallible protectors and thus more points of failure is superior solution. Bazillion fuzes… approach may be cheaper one, but it's entirely not clear to me why would it be more robust and safer. I know for a fact that in software design it often (but not always, it's all about trade-offs, as I have said) leads to more fragile and less reliable end result and I'm not sure why with household appliances it would be different.
Posted Feb 10, 2024 17:52 UTC (Sat)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (15 responses)
You should really really educate yourself about how energy distribution works and how the protection mechanisms work and (most important) what the job of those protection devices is.
Nobody is "filling the household with fuses" anywhere.
There are many different kinds of protection devices with many different characteristics.
Nobody is just randomly putting these everywhere.
Posted Feb 10, 2024 18:23 UTC (Sat)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
When you have disabled people in the house who rely on electricity, the LAST thing you need is a short in the garage (caused by rain) taking out the house circuit breaker for one example.
Or you go away for a week, something trips, and you've just lost the entire contents of your freezers. Plural. And your wife is up in arms because none of her favourite tv programs recorded. Etc etc.
At the end of the day, KISS. And every where the maximum ampage drops, we have a fuse to enforce that drop. JUST LIKE THE REST OF EUROPE.
And I'd much rather spend a few quid on a few fuses than hundreds of pounds on UPSs for all my vulnerable appliances. That's not even a theoretical. I'VE BEEN BURNED (figuratively) BY THAT.
I'm not talking about theoretical benefits to "the general populace". I think our system works BECAUSE I'VE SEEN IT WORK *FOR* *ME*.
Oh - and did I say "KISS"? Which is simpler - some fuses in some leads so people have to remember to use the right lead in the right appliance, or a fuse in every lead so you can't get it wrong? Or a wiring system that will allow you to put an earthed plug in an unearthed socket but not an unearthed plug in an earthed socket (which *encourages* you to mess up)?
Cheers,
Posted Feb 10, 2024 18:25 UTC (Sat)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link]
Posted Feb 10, 2024 18:43 UTC (Sat)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (12 responses)
Do we really want a *designed* current of 30Amps pouring from a socket - unfused - through a plug and wire designed for 13Amps? :-) Come to that, do we really want somebody having 30Amps flowing through their body if they touch a live wire! (Although a current of amps is actually less likely to kill you than a current of milli-amps - amps will burn but milli-amps will stop your heart.)
It would probably make more sense to insist on fused sockets, but that would then make them a lot more complex - especially if they're double sockets.
Cheers,
Posted Feb 10, 2024 20:08 UTC (Sat)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (10 responses)
There's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat.
In the US, what you described would be a violation of the National Electric Code. The circuit breaker must be sized for the lowest-rated portion of the circuit. Even if the wiring can handle 50A, if the socket(s) can only handle 15A, the breaker for that circuit must be no greater than 15A.
(This means that if two loads on the same circuit try to suck down 10A each, while that's fine from each socket's perspective, it's going to to pop your 15A breaker.)
Additionally, high-amperage circuits (water heater, HVAC, etc) are usually required to be dedicated to a single load.
> Which is cheaper, a couple of fuses at a couple of pennies each, or a hundred quid for another drum of cable (or more)?
At my local hardware store, 10/2 (30A) wire is nearly 3x the price of 14/2 (15A) wire ($0.92/ft vs $0.32/ft). So it's considerably cheaper to run two 15A circuits instead of one 30A.
Posted Feb 10, 2024 20:21 UTC (Sat)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
I should also point out that in the US, higher-amperage/voltage (>20A, >120V) plugs and sockets are physically incompatible with lower-amperage/voltage (<= 15A, 120V) ones. So you are physically prevented from plugging something only capable of safely handling 10A into a socket capable of delivering 30A.
Of course, nothing prevents you from buying a 240V 30A plug, using 26AWG (<2A) to connect a 120V electric kettle and setting your house on fire, but at that point it's darwinism.
Posted Feb 10, 2024 21:17 UTC (Sat)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (8 responses)
Different code, same purpose. Don't forget we have a ring, so we're delivering 30Amps over two (I think it's) 20Amp wires. So the socket will be designed to cope with 15Amps coming in either side, and delivering 13Amps to the socket. In fact, I think single sockets are designed to the same standard as doubles, so the socket has to be capable of delivering 26Amps.
Although I get your point - what happens if the ring gets broken? I don't actually know.
> At my local hardware store, 10/2 (30A) wire is nearly 3x the price of 14/2 (15A) wire ($0.92/ft vs $0.32/ft). So it's considerably cheaper to run two 15A circuits instead of one 30A.
So a 30Amp ring will cost roughly one third the price of a 30Amp spur. And I can have 2 x 3KW heaters in my room compared to your one if you have a 15Amp spur :-) At a cost almost identical to yours. Why I would want two 3KW heaters I have no idea :-)
Cheers,
Posted Feb 11, 2024 8:59 UTC (Sun)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (7 responses)
Sorry, but no. Different code, different purposes. Yes. That allows you to save some metal. And allows you to make things cheaper. But, in turn, that mean more points of failure. Which means less reliable protection and more chances of fatal failure. That means that UK have cheap and convenient yet dangerous setup. That's simple logic. And then you start preaching safety and when I become surprised you explode and, again, explain how you have convenient yet more dangerous setup. Because I'm not even sure what we are discussing here. Just what people are trying to tell me when they say you should really really educate yourself about how energy distribution works? I know how energy distribution works, but I also know how it fails. Fires happen not when protectors work but when they fail. Fuse doesn't blow up when it should (often because someone become tired of replacing it all the time and user piece of wire instead of fuse) or protector doesn't disconnect what it supposed to disconnect. And wire designed for 5A received 16A or wire designed for 16A received 60A. Then it overheats and burns. Now, there are, basically, two ways of designing things: “UK” and “everyone else”. UK way is to use thin wires and then put fuses everywhere to proctect them. That's convenient, cheap, complicated and dangerous design. Because these fuses are very much needed there and if any if them will not work and wouldn't break connection in danger you risk damage, including, but not limited to fire damage. “Everyone else” uses approach that's less convenient, more expensive, but simple and safe. Thick wires everywhere means there are less points of failure and less points of failure means more safety overral. Now, you may argue your preference for convenience or your preference for safety, but it's just stupid to praise safety if you have cheap and convenient, but dangerous setup, don't you think? Now, about practicality: “everyone else” approach doesn't preclude you to add more fuses if you wish. E.g. you may have connector to your garage which includes fuse and thus prevents your house from being powered-off after raid. But, and that's critical difference, that't convenience fuse, if it fails you are still safe. You house would be disconnected yet it wouldn't burn, because the main fuse would protect you.
Posted Feb 11, 2024 9:25 UTC (Sun)
by mgb (guest, #3226)
[Link] (5 responses)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
P.S. Unlike US breakers, UK fuses do not sometimes fail to blow when overloaded - too much current through a thin wire vaporizes it reliably, quickly, and safely. However replacing a blown fuse takes a couple of minutes longer than flipping a tripped breaker.
Posted Feb 11, 2024 10:09 UTC (Sun)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
If no one ever mixes them up, no one puts some piece of wire “to make the damn thing work, because I need it now” and so on. Well, maybe UK citizens are living in a different universe and they never make any mistakes, but then why do they need these fuses in the first place? I don't even use ani-virus (except what Microsoft shoves down my throat) and I don't see the point of it (that abomination Microsoft calls protector only ever acts on me when I compile programs with non-standard settings and I've never seen it acting upon real threat). But it's like “convenience fuse” on the extender in non-UK setup: it may help you if you are not careful enough, but if you built your whole security system on the assumption that anti-virus never fails and always protects you… then you are doing it wrong.
Posted Feb 11, 2024 12:24 UTC (Sun)
by mgb (guest, #3226)
[Link]
Oddly enough, since this is LWN, I don't have Microsoft pushing anything on me - none of our laptops, servers, or virtual servers run Windows.
Posted Feb 11, 2024 14:57 UTC (Sun)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (1 responses)
...Have look at some of Loius Rossman's rants on fuses that aren't what they claim to be. If you think UK plugs aren't full of similarly dodgy fuses then I have a bridge in London to sell you...
FWIW I grew up in a place that used UK-style fused plugs (on radial, not ring circuits), and have personally witnessed plenty of fuses/plugs/sockets that *melted* but didn't blow, only "failing" when something melted to the point where the contacts no longer contacted, or causing a short that tripped the upstream breaker/fuse.
So personally, I place far more trust in dual-action circuit breakers [1] than fuses.
[1] A thermal component that trips if the sustained current is too high for too long, and a magnetic component that trips if the current suddenly spikes. Then there are the Ground Fault and Arc Fault breakers that add additional protections.
Posted Feb 11, 2024 16:47 UTC (Sun)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
You'd be surprised then ...
Okay, from what you've said about dodgy Chinese suppliers, you could be right, but your typical UK plug nowadays is a sealed unit where if the fuse blows you just replace the cable. Your typical UK consumer today wouldn't have a clue how to cut off and replace a moulded plug. Even where you can replace the fuse, they wouldn't have a clue how to do that!
(And we did have a bridge in London we sold to you :-)
Cheers,
Posted Feb 11, 2024 17:11 UTC (Sun)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link]
UK fuses also fail to blow when overload - too much current through a thin wire heats it, yes, but it does not always vaporise; and even when it does vaporise, it can do so by coating "non-conductive" parts of the fuse in metal, resulting in the fuse carrying more current than it was designed to do (since the new coating is shorter and thus thicker than the wire was).
Both of these are rare failure modes, but they exist; there's a reason why BS 7671 now recommends breakers over fuses, because breakers (when well-constructed) are more reliable than fuses.
Posted Feb 11, 2024 10:27 UTC (Sun)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link]
No.
Posted Feb 10, 2024 21:14 UTC (Sat)
by songmaster (subscriber, #1748)
[Link]
Posted Feb 10, 2024 18:28 UTC (Sat)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
> You have fill your household with fuses, or…
Changing the wire setup means adding extra wires to achieve the same carrying capacity.
Which is cheaper, a couple of fuses at a couple of pennies each, or a hundred quid for another drum of cable (or more)?
Cheers,
Posted Feb 9, 2024 18:01 UTC (Fri)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (1 responses)
In the US (where mains power coming in is typically split-phase 200A 240V @ 60Hz), individual branch circuits have their own current-limiting circuit breakers, typically 15 or 20A when feeding general-purpose outlets. Individual devices rarely [1] have additional fusing/protection on top of that, except to protect *itself*.
Circuits in wet/damp areas (kitchens, bathrooms, etc) are required to have Ground Fault Current Interruptor (GFCI) protection as an additional safety measure. This can be on the device itself, the outlet, or a special breaker in the power distribution panel.
(I just finished a major remodel that included a _complete_ re-wire. What it replaced was mostly from the early 1950s with some kitbashed-redneck-engineered stuff from the late 80s tacked on. It was _much_ scarier than it sounds)
[1] The main exception are things that are typically _used_ in wet areas, eg hair dryers. These often have a dedicated GFCI module on their power cord.
Posted Feb 9, 2024 19:33 UTC (Fri)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
> (I just finished a major remodel that included a _complete_ re-wire. What it replaced was mostly from the early 1950s with some kitbashed-redneck-engineered stuff from the late 80s tacked on. It was _much_ scarier than it sounds)
I had my old house rewired maybe 30years ago, and the current house 20 years ago. "Modern" fuse boxes (which go back at least that far) typically have the feed coming in to a 60Amp breaker. Then we have four lighting rings coming off with 5Amp breakers. After that it goes through an RCD (Residual Current Device, effectively your GFCI) before we have 8 rings on 30Amp breakers. You can get smaller or larger boxes, but that's the basic layout.
So the whole house is protected by our RCD. Basically, it makes sure that the current flowing out is the same as the current flowing in. Your typical breaker will trip on a difference of 30mA. In my old house, the sockets by the door had in-built RCDs, and because they weren't the standard 30mA - they were are far more sensitive 10mA - boy did they cost a lot more. But because electrical accidents are far more likely in the garden, this protected the house from garden accidents - if I cut through the cable with my mower or something stupid like that, the socket would trip before the house circuit realised anything was happening. (Having tested it, if you test your standard plug-in protector in a house that's also protected, your socket protector will trip, and so will the house protector!)
Oh - and my electrician (who was also a mate) told me the story of a house he rewired. It had old 1930s wiring, which he said (apart from the age) it was in perfect nick. The problem of course, even being in perfect nick, it was severely perished through age because it was rubber.
Cheers,
Posted Feb 9, 2024 17:47 UTC (Fri)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link]
No it's not - the underlying reason we need fuses in all plugs is that it was permissible to sell a device with a cable that will burn if it carries more than 3A, but with a standard mains plug. Other countries dealt with this concern by requiring all devices to have a cable that could carry the full current needed to blow the fuse (trip the breaker) in the consumer's main panel without catching fire, but we chose to have fuses instead so that we could save metal in the post-1945 reconstruction of the country while still having one plug and socket type for all circuits.
The predecessor system had different plugs for 5A and 15A nominal limit, and did not need fuses even with ring mains; you just had to have the right fuse protecting the circuit so that a cable rated for 5A would be protected if on a 5A socket.
Posted Feb 15, 2024 13:57 UTC (Thu)
by sionescu (subscriber, #59410)
[Link]
Quotes of the week: Theo de Raadt
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Wol
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Wol
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Wol
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Wol
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Wol
> Then every plug needs a fuse where it's stepped down to 13Amps (and spurs need a fuse where it's stepped down to 16Amps.
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Wol
> To me our regs give both safety and security. WELL WORTH IT.
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Wol
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Wol
> It makes sense for programming.
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If the wire setup (which includes its environment) can't carry the max short circuit current, we need a fuse in front of it, to drop down the max short circuit current.
It's that simple.
> It's that simple.
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They are added at places which follow certain rules. These rules are based on electricity physics and thermal physics.
Fuse != fuse.
Breaker != breaker.
RCD != RCD.
etc. etc...
Not even the UK style of putting them into every connector is random by any means.
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Wol
At this point, I'm thinking that this conversation has gone pretty far afield and that there's little to be gained by continuing it. Maybe it's time to stop?
I think we've blown the fuse
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Wol
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Wol
> Different code, same purpose.
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> Unlike US breakers, UK fuses do not sometimes fail to blow when overloaded - too much current through a thin wire vaporizes it reliably, quickly, and safely.
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Wol
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Can you please stop it? Thanks.
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> You may change the wire setup
Wol
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Wol
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The effect of not having such a policy is that Linux is a dumping ground of half-baked APIs that cannot be changed any more, even if deficiencies are found after being used in production.