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Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

By Jonathan Corbet
September 29, 2023
On September 27, 1983, Richard Stallman announced the founding of the GNU project. His goal, which seemed wildly optimistic and unattainable at the time, was to write a complete Unix-like operating system from the beginning and make it freely available. Exactly 40 years later, the GNU project celebrated with a hacker meeting in Switzerland. Your editor had the good fortune to be able to attend.

An anniversary like this, one might think, would be an occasion for a fair amount of introspection and planning for the future. That was not the case here, though. There was almost no looking back at GNU project history, little evaluation of strategy or tactics, and no planning for the coming years. The GNU project, it seems, is happy with what it is and feels no need to talk about where it is going as a whole.

The one exception, perhaps, was Panos Alevropoulos, who works on the Free Software Foundation's efforts to end software patents. Some good things have happened in those 40 years, he said; free software exists for almost every purpose, free social networks (including the fediverse) are rapidly growing, the quality of the software is high, and it is supported by a community of passionate people. On the other hand, he said, many features and capabilities still come to proprietary software first, there is no 100% freedom-respecting hardware, no prospect of regulatory action against digital rights management or software patents, and free software is still either unknown to or misunderstood by the general public. In many ways, he said, the project has failed to meet its goals.

This failure, he said, shows that a strategy centered around the development of software is not enough. What is needed is a way to make free software the default for more users. That might be done by creating applications that achieve industry-standard status; VLC, he said, is a good example of how that can work. Working to ensure that software developed with public money is free (something that, as Matthias Kirschner emphasized earlier in the day, the Free Software Foundation Europe is pushing hard for) is another step. Eventually, he said, consideration could be given to banning proprietary software entirely; not everybody in attendance was convinced that the GNU project should venture into advocating for changes to copyright law, though.

The discussion moved on quickly and Alevropoulos's talk did not echo through the rest of the meeting.

The ostensible highlight was an address by Stallman himself. His appearance may have been a shock to many in the room; he disclosed that he has been fighting cancer, and he looks the way cancer patients often look. That fight, he said, is going well, and there is every reason to be optimistic; he added that the community is going to have to put up with his presence for many years yet.

Stallman's talk did not look back to his original announcement at all. Instead, he wandered over a number of topics, seemingly disconnected from each other. For example, Red Hat's changes with regard to access to (and redistribution of) source code were deemed to be "nasty", but he sees no basis for a copyright suit against the company. He said that he had no conclusive answer on whether Red Hat's policy violates the GPL, but it is clear that it is antisocial; Red Hat should change its approach.

He also spent a little time on generative artificial intelligence and the concerns that these systems might constitute a violation of the copyrights on the works used to train them. There are many uses of these systems that run counter to freedom, he said, and those uses should be illegal. But the way to get there is through legislation, not through licensing. Restrictions on activities should be the result of democratic processes and not one person adding rules to a license; no one person should have that power.

The part of the meeting that seemed to resonate most with the attendees, though, was the considerable amount of time given to the presentation of a number of projects that are being developed under the GNU umbrella. The utilities that the GNU project is most widely known for — Emacs, the compiler toolchain, command-line utilities — were notably absent from this gathering; there was almost no overlap with the attendees of the GNU Tools Cauldron, held just a few days before, for example. Much of the energy in the GNU project, today, is focused on rather different projects:

  • Martin Schanzenbach presented the GNU Name System, an attempt to create an alternative to the domain name system that lacks central servers and control points.
  • Florian Dold talked at length about Taler, an electronic payments system that is trying to solve current problems while avoiding many of the mistakes made by others. There are no offline payments, no blockchains, no unregulated radical privacy, no smart contracts, and no reliance on big tech companies. Taler is meant to provide buyer-side anonymity while maintaining transparency and auditability on the seller side. The talk featured cameo appearances from a member of the Swiss parliament who has tried to create an awareness of Taler in that forum, and from the founder of the NetzBon regional currency, which is looking at integrating Taler.
  • Luis Falcon discussed GNU Health, a hospital information system with active deployments worldwide. This project is working to make state-of-the-art capabilities freely available while, of course, adding protection for the privacy of medical information.
  • Sébastien Blin works on Jami, a communications platform focused on privacy and a distributed implementation.
  • Luca Saiu is developing GNU Jitter, a system for the creation of highly efficient virtual machines.
  • Tobias Platen presented Libre-SOC, a project that is working toward the creation of a fast, secure, and 100% free system-on-chip.
  • Mohammad-Reza Nabipoor was arguably closest to the GNU project's roots with his presentation of GNU poke, an editor for binary data that has been covered here in the past.

The conclusion to be drawn from all of this is that, without actually saying so, the GNU project has moved on from the task of creating a free operating system. That has been done, and done well. But there is a long list of other problems — urgent problems — that can be addressed with free software, and today's GNU developers are putting their effort into many of them.

There are plenty of easy criticisms to be made regarding the GNU project and its founder; those have been reiterated many times, and it is your editor's hope that readers will avoid doing so yet again in the comments here. But, those criticisms notwithstanding, it is true that, 40 years ago, Richard Stallman saw something more clearly than the rest of us did, expressed a compelling vision of a better world, and changed how we deal with technology. Perhaps free software would have eventually found success without the GNU project, perhaps not, but there is little doubt that it would have come much later. We have all benefited hugely from the GNU Project, and its 40th anniversary is worth celebrating.

Much of the GNU Project's stated mission is arguably obsolete, by virtue of having been accomplished, even if we never did quite get that Empire game that Stallman promised. But there is still a lot of work to do. The GNU Project needs to refocus itself on current problems while continuing to pursue its goal of software freedom. As can be seen, GNU developers are busily doing exactly that; arguably, they are leaving the GNU Project behind in the process. We desperately need freedom and privacy-protecting solutions to a wide range of problems, far beyond the operating system.

The GNU Project has laid a good foundation but, as Alevropoulos said early in the day, it has not created a world where free software solutions are the default. It has not, yet, made the case for free software to the world as a whole. Some new thought into how to solve that problem, along with an intensification of the energy being put into projects like those described above, could cause the GNU Project's next 40 years to far overshadow the last 40.

Meanwhile, we at LWN, like many others in the community, hope that Stallman's health situation continues to improve and that he is able to see the GNU project's course over the coming years.

[Thanks to the Linux Foundation, LWN's travel sponsor, for supporting my travel to this event.]


to post comments

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 29, 2023 17:43 UTC (Fri) by dullfire (guest, #111432) [Link]

Corbet, it sounds a bit like something you were looking forward to hearing about was lacking in the conference.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 29, 2023 19:00 UTC (Fri) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (71 responses)

> no prospect of regulatory action against digital rights management

DRMs and streaming have (barely) saved the entertainment industry so of course this is not going to happen any time soon. In free software la-la land most people pay for copyrighted content even when they can get it for free from their friends. In the real world most people pay for content only when it's much more convenient to do so.

> Eventually, he said, consideration could be given to banning proprietary software entirely

Did I mention la-la land?

> His goal, [...] was to write a complete Unix-like operating system [...] and make it freely available.

> many features and capabilities still come to proprietary software first

Like it or not, free software has almost always been "commodization". I don't see why or how that would change in the future.

> even if we never did quite get that Empire game that Stallman promised.

"... Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man” does not imply revolutionaries get the outcome they wanted. They typically don't.

> We desperately need freedom and privacy-protecting solutions to a wide range of problems, far beyond the operating system.

It's very nice the GNU is trying to help but this is far, far beyond _software_.

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2022/global...

I just picked a random article, there are countless ones on this topic.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 29, 2023 20:41 UTC (Fri) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] (55 responses)

Like it or not, free software has almost always been "commodization". I don't see why or how that would change in the future.

I'm not sure that's entirely true. The areas where we see competition between proprietary and free software are almost all ones where the proprietary software came first and the free software tried to replicate it. When the free software came first, it's very common that proprietary software never gets written because there isn't a plausible way to make any money competing with a free implementation that already dominates the sector.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 0:04 UTC (Sat) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (54 responses)

> > > many features and capabilities still come to proprietary software first

> > Like it or not, free software has almost always been "commoditization". I don't see why or how that would change in the future.

> When the free software came first, it's very common that proprietary software never gets written because there isn't a plausible way to make any money competing with a free implementation that already dominates the sector.

With BSD-style licensed software you can add (brand new) proprietary features on top of free software. This seems pretty common to me. That's exactly what the "less free" GPL is designed to block. Yet BSD-style licenses and "truly free" software seem as popular as ever. Big Tech and Big Corp have totally embraced them while trying to keep a distance with the GPL (and with the "political" GPLv3 even more).

http://meta.ath0.com/2012/02/05/apples-great-gpl-purge/
https://www.embedded.com/arm-follows-apple-to-the-open-so...

So the world is both "more free" (BSD > GPL) and "less free" (more proprietary software). The real world is a varied and complicated place. Too diverse for idealists, dreamers and revolutionaries.

The Myth of the Lone Inventor is another, very common real-world simplification. There is no doubt that Stallman and GNU accelerated the adoption of free software. Like all other inventions, there is no doubt either that it would have all happened anyway.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 6:45 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (37 responses)

And outside of "tools for developers" - compilers, toolchains, the OS itself, the economics are just against free software.

If the community that wants to USE the software, and the community that are capable of WRITING the software, are disjoint, then you need some method of *paying* for the software. And the *effect* (if not the intent) of the BSD/GPL, is to cut off any mechanism designed to ensure software developers can eat.

The free/open software community is economically incapable of producing software for users other than itself.

Cheers,
Wol

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 9:21 UTC (Sat) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link] (36 responses)

Counterexamples say no.

I wouldn't call the OS a tool for developers. I know, and am aware of many more, users of OS's that are not developers...

Also, unless you decide "not having the most users means you have failed", there are plenty of free software projects that are very much not focused on developers that have managed upon an economic model that has sustained them for many years:

- GIMP
- LibreOffice
- Warzone2100
- Planeshift

All are moving along and still being updated. Do they dominate their "business sector"? No, but they are neither businesses, nor is failed domination a sign their economic model is "not working".

I do fear that sometimes we too easily embrace the silicon valley measures of success - do you dominate your industry? Is your marketing department so good, your brand is synonymous with your type of product? etc.

Then again, if many people embrace that philosophy, but open-source projects still succeed in building sustainable communities creating great software used by people anyway, it's fine too.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 14:34 UTC (Sat) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

Yes, a diverse and complicated world is perfectly fine. It's also the opposite of "banning proprietary software" and other GNU political goals where they try to fix problems people don't even understand they have.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 1, 2023 16:32 UTC (Sun) by jmalcolm (subscriber, #8876) [Link] (32 responses)

One thing Stallman has gotten right since his initial manifesto is the realization that most software is written by companies for their own use. The world of proprietary software designed to be sold is only a subset. This is why he changed his mind that Free Software would demand lower pay for developers as he first imagined.

This means, "tools for developers" actually includes vast amounts of middle-ware and libraries that companies can collaborate on in the creation of all this custom software. Collectively, this represents not only the bulk of the software written but of course creates an incredibly rich ecosystem of base code on which to build other solutions as alternatives to packaged software.

So, the economics of competing with proprietary software are not as bad as you think.

On top of that, there are other alternatives to the binary choice of "everybody works for free" and "we have found a way to monetize our free software". Quite a few projects are funded by their users via essentially a "charity" mechanism ( Patreon and others ). Also, well organized projects are often able to secure corporate sponsorships. This is essentially just marketing ( or potential longer term vested interest in the software itself ) for the companies doing the funding. It may not be consistent or dependable but it is a way of paying developers to work on software.

I watch the Ladybird browser project pretty closely. Most of the momentum and code contributed is "hobbiest" I would say but it is amazing what they have accomplished so far. The project leader has managed to make writing Open Source software his full-time job after getting enough support for the community to create what he considers an acceptable income ( again, via Patreon and the like ). What is interesting is that he has now started asking companies for sponsorships. These are, as far as I can tell, fairly no strings attached. One smaller backer hired him to make their own website look good in their browser but that is a pretty limited form of "corporate influence". He has managed to raise a few hundred thousand dollars so far and has, as a result, now hired I think two fully paid developers.

The point is, people are finding ways to build FOSS where the developers get paid even if there is no business model creating a revenue stream that funds those salaries. We really are seeing new models emerging.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 1, 2023 18:24 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (29 responses)

> So, the economics of competing with proprietary software are not as bad as you think.

How would you know what I think?

> This means, "tools for developers" actually includes vast amounts of middle-ware and libraries that companies can collaborate on in the creation of all this custom software. Collectively, this represents not only the bulk of the software written but of course creates an incredibly rich ecosystem of base code on which to build other solutions as alternatives to packaged software.

Yes, but this creates not a nirvana of FSF-envisioned world with no proprietary software, but more of “Android-style” model. Where developers pool the resources to jointly develop middle-ware and libraries but then carefully curate them to ensure they couldn't be used to create a competitor and ensure that what is actually delivered to end-users is proprietary and closed.

> The point is, people are finding ways to build FOSS where the developers get paid even if there is no business model creating a revenue stream that funds those salaries. We really are seeing new models emerging.

Yes, but these are all based on “free software as core for proprietary offerings”. There were few attempts to keep open core going (which FSF even, reluctantly supported at times… look on GNU GhostScript, e.g.) but companies that adopt a simple stance it's Ok to have some cooperation in the core libraries, but software that actual end-users are using should cost money and shouldn't be freely redistributable which is fundamentally incompatible with FSF goals and ideas.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 1, 2023 20:39 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (28 responses)

The Open Core model is unstable long-term. Either your core ends up being the whole product, or the core ends up shriveling into nothing. You're also vulnerable to "hostile takeovers" by other companies that simply re-implement your proprietary features (see: Elastic).

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 0:16 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (20 responses)

The original version (where someone may actually use open part as actual product) is unstable, yes.

Version where your actual product it never free is remarkably stable and useful (Apple uses it with clang and Darwin, Google uses it with ChromeOSM and Android, etc).

The trick, as I have already said, is just never-never bring that “core” to the state where is actually usable by anyone but extreme geeks.

For geeks (who are potential developers themselves) you can just use open source, there are no need to play games with licensing, and non-geeks (who couldn't write code) you just keep enough functionality in unusable state to make your “core” unattractive enough proposition.

This works fine if you are careful enough.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 0:37 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (19 responses)

> Version where your actual product it never free is remarkably stable and useful (Apple uses it with clang and Darwin, Google uses it with ChromeOSM and Android, etc).

Uhm... Open clang is basically identical to the Apple clang, except if you want to use it to compile for macOS or iOS. In which case, you'll need a macOS anyway. So it doesn't really matter either way. Chrome is pretty functional on its own, as witnessed by tens of forks that slap a bit of branding and functionality on top of it.

And Android is an example of slowly tipping over into a fully proprietary model, with the slow expansion of Google Play Services.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 8:26 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (18 responses)

The important thing is that in all these cases one may benefit from open development of the code (like, e.g., all these contributions from third-parties for RISC-V support in Google) and yet fully control the final product (yes, there are numerous third-party forks of Chrome, but Chrome is not a product, it's needed to keep users watching ads… ChromeOS is product and there are no forks AFAIK).

Android is actually very interesting case where the one who try to wrestle control from Google are not open-source liking hobbyists, but state actors (China, Russia) who want to wrestle control over platform from Google.

Would be interesting what would be the final result in the end.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 1:24 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (17 responses)

Chrome OS is just not interesting without the server-side components (which Google is not opening) and hardware. The OS itself is pretty trivial, and there are several forks, mostly by Chinese hardware vendors who use it within their own ecosystems.

> The important thing is that in all these cases one may benefit from open development of the code

The thing is, it just doesn't happen a lot with Open Core products. You do get small individual contributions here and there, but I don't know _any_ Open Core product that has a true open development ecosystem around it, with multiple companies contributing significant changes.

Android is developed behind the closed doors, and Google is pretty tight-lipped about its roadmap, for example. ElasticSearch for a time looked like an example of a project like this, but it resulted in a fork into OpenSearch.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 15:50 UTC (Tue) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (12 responses)

> > Android is actually very interesting case where the one who try to wrestle control from Google are not open-source liking hobbyists, but state actors (China, Russia) ...

https://lineageos.org/ has a couple millions of users and there are many forks like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//e/_(operating_system)

> The [Chrome]OS itself is pretty trivial,...

... if you ignore all the proprietary bits: Android apps, media codecs, DRM, DisplayLink, proprietary drivers, verified boot,

> ... and there are several forks, mostly by Chinese hardware vendors who use it within their own ecosystems.

I bet they use ChromeOS Flex which was acquired by... Google or some variation of it - cause why would they re-invent that wheel?
https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/16/google_chrome_os/

> The thing is, it just doesn't happen a lot with Open Core products. You do get small individual contributions here and there, but I don't know _any_ Open Core product that has a true open development ecosystem around it, with multiple companies contributing significant changes.

https://www.zephyrproject.org/project-members/

I lost track and I didn't understand why the LLVM suite does not qualify sorry.

It's interesting (and difficult!) to discuss trends but I bet you can find at least one significant counter-example for pretty much everything.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 19:05 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (11 responses)

> ... if you ignore all the proprietary bits: Android apps, media codecs, DRM, DisplayLink, proprietary drivers, verified boot,

Android apps are supported in the open source Chromium OS. DRM and verified boot are the main complications, but they are still pretty minor.

> I lost track and I didn't understand why the LLVM suite does not qualify sorry.

LLVM or Zephyr are not Open Core products.

Let's step back and discuss what "open core" is. It's a product that has a core under an Open Source license, but its functionality is very limited, and you need to buy a proprietary "extension" for it to become useful.

An example is Gitlab. It has an open source version, but you need to buy a proprietary license if you want integration with single sign-on, permissions, vulnerability scanning, etc. The proceedings from the sale of these proprietary licenses are used to develop the product.

LLVM, Zephyr, K8s are typical collaborative infrastructure projects. They are developed by multiple companies, who fund the development as an investment into their own infrastructure. These products don't generate any profits by themselves.

If LLVM were Open Core, it would have probably looked like this: you can download LLVM and clang for C for free, but you need to buy a license for the clang++ to compile C++ code.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 19:30 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (6 responses)

> LLVM, Zephyr, K8s are typical collaborative infrastructure projects. They are developed by multiple companies, who fund the development as an investment into their own infrastructure. These products don't generate any profits by themselves.

But that's the main, most stable, way Open Source is developed. In that case your “open core” is still open and it's still a “core”, it's just not core for one, single product.

If you limit “open core” to the artificially limited construct where only one company builds something on top of “open core” then what you have is very unstable and almost useless construct: the whole point of having “open core” is to ensure that it wouldn't be developed by just you, but would be developed by others, too, thus reducing costs and increasing quality… and if others couldn't build their own proprietary product then why would they invest into development of your open code?

I would say that “the elephant in the room”, the biggest and boldest achievement of “open core” approach is Linux (even if it wasn't started with that goal explicitly): it's developed by bunch of huge corporations jointly and then used on billions of devices… and overwhelming majority of these devices include a lot of proprietary addons. The fact that Linux can also be used to create FSF-approved, fully-free OS for someone is a sidenote in that process, that's not what Linux is developed for by most of participants.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 20:19 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (5 responses)

> But that's the main, most stable, way Open Source is developed. In that case your “open core” is still open and it's still a “core”, it's just not core for one, single product.

Well, yes. Collaborative Open Source projects developed by consortiums of companies is the most viable kind.

> If you limit “open core” to the artificially limited construct where only one company builds something on top of “open core” then what you have is very unstable and almost useless construct

I mean, I said exactly the same: https://lwn.net/Articles/946077/

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 20:36 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (4 responses)

> I mean, I said exactly the same: https://lwn.net/Articles/946077/

Maybe that's what you wanted to say. But that's not what you said:

> Either your core ends up being the whole product, or the core ends up shriveling into nothing.

Neither Kubernetes nor LLVM have become “the whole product” for Apple or Google or “shriveling into nothing”, yet both started as “open core” products.

IOW: you only have shown the “bad side” of “open core” model. There's also “good side” where others take your “core” and develop other products on top of it. At least that's how I perceived it.

Maybe you meant that as “your core ends up being the whole product”? But then it's hard to say that Rustc have turned into some kind of “product” for Mozilla…

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 4, 2023 3:13 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (3 responses)

> Neither Kubernetes nor LLVM have become “the whole product” for Apple or Google or “shriveling into nothing”, yet both started as “open core” products.

They are not: https://lwn.net/Articles/946380/

LLVM or K8s are most definitely not Open Core.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 4, 2023 11:16 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

> LLVM or K8s are most definitely not Open Core.

I wouldn't consider LLVM to be "open core" either, but the fact remains that there are numerous (long-lived) proprietary LLVM forks that provide functionality not available in the "open source" releases.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 4, 2023 11:56 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

For any individual project, the more companies you can get to "embrace, extend," the harder it is to add the "extinguish" onto the end.

Cheers,
Wol

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 5, 2023 2:49 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

It's more like the story with FreeBSD. A lot of vendors have long-running proprietary forks that are adapted for their particular needs. It's not Open Core, it's simply classic downstream consumption.

The largest user of LLVM with a closed-source fork is Apple, but in their case it's mostly neglect. They release a proprietary compiler in XCode, but it's not significantly different from the mainline.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 21:32 UTC (Tue) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (3 responses)

> Android apps are supported in the open source Chromium OS.

Do you have evidence of that? It wasn't the case in 2019:
https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/chromium-os-di...

If ChromiumOS supports it, then why does Flex not?
https://support.google.com/chromeosflex/answer/11543105?h...

I could be wrong but I strongly suspect there are still some proprietary bits to make Android apps actually "supported" - the Play Store being the elephant in the room. Even for LineageOS it's a grey area so good luck with ChromiumOS.

https://wiki.lineageos.org/gapps

> Let's step back and discuss what "open core" is. It's a product that has a core under an Open Source license, but its functionality is very limited, and you need to buy a proprietary "extension" for it to become useful.

I think that's too narrow of a definition. Khim already answered the "one product" part. I don't agree with the "very limited" part for a simple, practical reason: where do you draw that line? You can't; it's a continuous spectrum with a wide variety of examples and companies trying a wide variety of business models.

> An example is Gitlab. It has an open source version, but you need to buy a proprietary license if you want integration with single sign-on, permissions, vulnerability scanning, etc.

There are numerous open source projects using Gitlab (including... Debian!) and I very much doubt they all pay a license. I think this proves Gitlab's "open core" is not so limited that a licence is required to do anything useful. Different projects have different needs so again good luck drawing "useful" or "very limited" lines there.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 22:04 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> There are numerous open source projects using Gitlab (including... Debian!) and I very much doubt they all pay a license

Not sure if Debian would get (or accept) some kind of license flexibility, but we also run the FOSS version of GitLab because, as an open source company, registrations are open and higher-level licenses are per-account. Which is…untenable.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 22:12 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

> Do you have evidence of that? It wasn't the case in 2019

It looks as if we are reading the same words on the screen but reach to opposite conclusions. From your link: the Android container itself has no plans to be released (which is basically just the rootfs of an Android system). everything else is already released, and as noted, is using standard Linux technology to isolate things (namespaces, etc...).

> If ChromiumOS supports it, then why does Flex not?

Licensing issues, mostly. Android support includes, among other things, the ability to run ARM code on x86-devices. License for that comes with Chromebook's hardware (via Intel and AMD, yes, not directly from Google), it doesn't extend to ChromeOS Flex.

> I could be wrong but I strongly suspect there are still some proprietary bits to make Android apps actually "supported" - the Play Store being the elephant in the room. Even for LineageOS it's a grey area so good luck with ChromiumOS.

How is that related to ChromiumOS? As long as ChromiumOS is concerned the whole Android VM is one big blob, you download it as whole and run it as whole. You use that blob as whole. And since licenses for binary blobs inside come with your ChromeOS device, not with ChromeOS itself you, most likely, not even violating any licenses (although you may need to contact some actual lawyer if you plan to sell Chromebooks with your ChromiumOS).

It should work on ChromiumOS just fine, you just don't get source for sources of that VM image, everything else should be in ChromiumOS.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 4, 2023 1:11 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> It looks as if we are reading the same words on the screen but reach to opposite conclusions.

This is very good summary.

> And since licenses for binary blobs inside come with your ChromeOS device,...

I was considering ChromiumOS _outside of Chromebook hardware_. I assumed the multiple references to Flex made that obvious. In that case I think we're in violent agreement that getting Android Apps is at best quite a technical challenge and at worst impossible for licencing reasons. So this seems to match the definition of "Open Core" pretty well.

The vast majority of people who use a Chromebook use ChromeOS, not ChromiumOS. Unless your Chromebook is very old and out of support, I don't see the point of "de-Googlifying" your Chromebook only to re-add the Google Play Store again. Which will most likely not work unless you already connected the OS to the Google mothership, in which case why really did you get rid of ChromeOS on your Chromebook?

> (although you may need to contact some actual lawyer if you plan to sell Chromebooks with your ChromiumOS).

I think this is getting even more "niche" and less relevant.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 15:58 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

> Android is developed behind the closed doors

Not really. You can find most changes that would be in future Android released in 2024 committed into AOSP branch right now, today. Except for Pixel-only proprietary addons, of course.

> Google is pretty tight-lipped about its roadmap

Not true either. Join the OHA, sign the NDA and you would get access to many roadmaps and would even be included in the planning of these roadmaps.

> ElasticSearch for a time looked like an example of a project like this, but it resulted in a fork into OpenSearch.

That's exactly what Google prevents by doing things the way it does. Code is free and always available but documentation for it only becomes available year or two after code is written. Enough of a headstart to create huge headache for someone who want to try to create hostile work. At least in theory.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 16:15 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> Enough of a headstart to create huge headache for someone who want to try to create hostile work. At least in theory.

And this is why innovation patents in general are also a bad idea. "First mover" advantage is almost always much more valuable than a patent.

Never mind the confusion behind what we think of as a patent, and a "design patent". A design patent may be a patent (as in "letters patent"), but it's effectively a 3D trademark.

Any ways, I'm digressing.

Cheers,
Wol

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 19:16 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> Not really. You can find most changes that would be in future Android released in 2024 committed into AOSP branch right now, today.

Really? Including the UI changes? I don't doubt that some low-level stuff is released earlier.

I remember messing around with AOSP tip on x86 many years ago, and the UI was definitely not the new UI.

> Not true either. Join the OHA, sign the NDA and you would get access to many roadmaps and would even be included in the planning of these roadmaps.

The NDA is called "tight-lipped".

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 19:41 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

> I remember messing around with AOSP tip on x86 many years ago, and the UI was definitely not the new UI.

Try Lineage OS one of these days without Google Apps package. You would be surprised to see how much if what one perceives as “Android UI” are, in fact, “Google Apps UI”.

> Really? Including the UI changes? I don't doubt that some low-level stuff is released earlier.

Parts that are ever released at all come early, together with everything else.

You have to remember that UI is something Android manufacturers like to tweak most thus every one of them have huge amount of proprietary thingies there. Including Google.

> The NDA is called "tight-lipped".

Not with dozens of firms in the consortiom. E.g. push for the RISC-V was started about two years before Google announced support. And RISC-V effort wasn't even started by Google!

Sure, they don't want for the general public to know about their plans early, but that's no different from any other, normal, company or consortium.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 10:51 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (6 responses)

Is there a term in use for the Gutenprint-style "open core" where releases become GPL after a time delay but are initially proprietary? That seems more inherently stable to me (enough to have a separate or more specific term available).

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 11:56 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm not sure if that's what I would call “stable”. Their web site [proclaims](https://gimp-print.sourceforge.io/), almost at the top, that to use it you need MacOS older than MacOS 10.15 “Catalina”. And MacOS 10.15 “Catalina” is four years old by now.

Looks to me like a typical open-source project with not enough people to even support some basic development.

And that's to be expected, of course: software are durable goods, it doesn't become bad with time. It may become obsolete (like Gutenprint example shows) but if you use it in a stable environment you can use it, unmodified, for years.

That means that the worst thing you may do is to make old releases open-source and to make them available for free.

Sometimes this may even work for a limited time, sure, but these attempts tend to gravitate to one of two attractors: either someone buys you and your product becomes part of some bigger proprietary product (at which point full open source becomes valid approach) or you need to find a way to “tighten the screws” and make you main product proprietary (there were numerous attempts to pain that road in different colors, but that's, essentially, what both RedHat and Artifex Software are doing (just in a different way).

Ultimately the only way to make open source sustainable is to make it “core” of some proprietary “you have to pay for it to use it” offering.

Open source guys are perfectly fine with that while free software camp is, of course, having fits just hearing that idea. Because for them “free software” is a tool which was supposed to eliminate proprietary software, but, of course, symbiotic “open source software” couldn't kill it's complement.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 12:33 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

>I'm not sure if that's what I would call “stable”. Their web site [proclaims](https://gimp-print.sourceforge.io/), almost at the top, that to use it you need MacOS older than MacOS 10.15 “Catalina”. And MacOS 10.15 “Catalina” is four years old by now.

This is because Apple keeps making changes to their development stack and deployment environments, so some software needs to be not just maintained but actively developed in order to work on newer platforms.

Additionally, MacOS has drastically changed their printer driver model, going all in with an IPP-only approach, making "legacy" CUPS drivers functionally useless, so there's probably no point in even trying to support the current MacOS versions.

> Looks to me like a typical open-source project with not enough people to even support some basic development.

Gutenprint no longer has a MacOS maintainer, but from a purely linux perspective it's doing just fine, and doesn't _need_ much ongoing development.

> Open source guys are perfectly fine with that while free software camp is, of course, having fits just hearing that idea. Because for them “free software” is a tool which was supposed to eliminate proprietary software, but, of course, symbiotic “open source software” couldn't kill it's complement.

When expressed that way, Gutenprint is very much "Free Software" -- It's largely displaced proprietary software in two niche industry verticals that I know of.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 12:20 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> Is there a term in use for the Gutenprint-style "open core" where releases become GPL after a time delay but are initially proprietary? That seems more inherently stable to me (enough to have a separate or more specific term available).

Point of order: You're thinking of _Ghostscript_.

Gutenprint is an entirely different project, and has always been released solely under the GPL (v2 or later).

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 12:30 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

D'oh, indeed. Sorry for the confusion.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 20:01 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

> That seems more inherently stable to me (enough to have a separate or more specific term available).

Why? This is an even worse proposition. The GPL-ed version will eventually be good enough for almost everyone.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 13:57 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

When you deal with hardware-interfacing software, some places need support for hardware released tomorrow to be available yesterday. That seems like a fine place to extract an income if the vast majority of people won't need it until next year (or so). Given how hardware companies tend to work, there's sure to be some fancy new hardware someone else will need by that time.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 10:16 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

Thanks for pointing out https://LadyBird.dev - didn't know about that project. Great to see someone have the energy and confidence to take on writing a whole new web browser stack from scratch. The web could certainly use another fully-featured stack, to challenge the big 2 (well, really the big one [inc. its spawn and siblings] + the minority one).

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 5, 2023 23:30 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

> The web could certainly use another fully-featured stack

Which is impossible to achieve in practice: with 200 new specifications added per year on average your web browser would always be a niche offering similar to links or any other archaic browser.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 1, 2023 18:14 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

> I wouldn't call the OS a tool for developers.

You are missing the forest for the trees. Yes, OS is not a tool just for developers, but all free popular OSes were written by developers for developers.

Other users have come later.

This doesn't work for other types of software where users and developers are disjoint groups.

Superb DOTA player is very rarely (I would even say “never” but there are rare random exceptions) is a software developer capable of modding DOTA (let alone writing something like DOTA from scratch).

> Also, unless you decide "not having the most users means you have failed", there are plenty of free software projects that are very much not focused on developers that have managed upon an economic model that has sustained them for many years:

And all of them are in areas where dominant players make billions while free software developers subside on 0.1% of that. If area is large enough that even 0.1% is enough to pay for development then voila: you get something. Much less capable and very much “me too” something, but you get it.

If area is more specialized, then not it just doesn't work.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 5:49 UTC (Mon) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]

You pulled one quote out of context, and wrote a paragraph in rebuttal. Forest for trees, indeed.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 1, 2023 14:36 UTC (Sun) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link] (15 responses)

"Like all other inventions, there is no doubt either that it would have all happened anyway." is quite presumptuous, since none of us can see into alternate histories. The Boeing 2707 never came to fruition, and the same forces that got it canceled could have canceled the Concorde and Tupolev Tu-144. We haven't seen a spaceship with an Orion Drive, either. There wouldn't be APL or Forth without their respective creators.

Those are big technological inventions; when we're talking about sociological inventions, I'm a lot more questioning. Would communism have taken off without Marx, without Lenin? Certainly not in the same form.

Without the GNU project, I can imagine a world where open source isn't a thing. There's the BSD-style licenses, and various more restrictive licenses, but there's not a line around a group of licenses to call them Free. POV-Ray and Fractint are good examples of programs that were community built, and would have been GPL if they had been later (in fact, POV-Ray was rewritten to be AGPL), but instead they were under non-commercial licenses, because their creators didn't have the idea of the GPL.

I can see a world where you have the BSD systems (slower to develop, as they didn't have GCC and other GNU code to depend on) for the real techno geeks, but GNOME and KDE never got started, and many community-written programs that would be GPL by default now are instead under non-commercial licenses, that there never got the mainstream idea that community projects release their code under what we would consider free licenses. It'd be a world where far fewer people use open source systems.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 1, 2023 16:50 UTC (Sun) by jmalcolm (subscriber, #8876) [Link] (14 responses)

I think it is plausible to say that Free Software may not have happened but certainly Open Source would have. It was happening already even before Stallman.

The BSD lawsuit, which arguably cost BSD its chance to be what Linux has become, also cleared the legal path required for Open Source to exist.

Free Software and Open Source have very different goals philosophically but result in very similar outcomes when measured by the software produced. Almost all Open Source software is also Free Software whether its authors cared about software freedom or not.

The success of Open Source has created a world rich in the ubiquitous and relatively high--quality software that allows the Free Software movement celebrate a lot of the success cited in the article. However, as Richard Stallman himself warned in his essay on the differences between Open Source and Free Software, the success of Open Source begins to hurt Free Software at some point as the success of more permissively licensed software impedes the ability of the Free Software movement to move people to the more extreme commitment to what the FSF considers Freedom. As the article also cites, the universe of software governed by copyleft is a fraction of the overall Free Software pool. Many projects may even use the GPL but either water-down or even reject many of the political or philisophical objectives of the Free Software movement ( such as the Linux kernel itself I would argue ).

I guess my question is, even with the tireless efforts of RMS, how successful has Free Software been independent of Open Source. I think Open Source would have happened anyway. How much further has Free Software been able to take us and how much further is GNU and the FSF ( two different things in my mind ) able to take us still?

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 1, 2023 20:17 UTC (Sun) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link] (13 responses)

The concept of open source wasn't happening before Stallman. The phrase didn't come around until 1998, and OSI's Open Source definition is based off Debian Free Software Guidelines. I would be very surprised to discover that in a world without Stallman, there was a concept that covered the same set of licenses, instead of just BSD-like licenses or broadly including non-commercial and/or non-source-available packages.

I don't see that the BSD lawsuit changed anything. People have always had broad freedom to license their copyrights, and when AT&T removed the copyright notices on BSD software, they not only violated the license, they committed a crime (Title 17, Section 506(d)); at the time in the US, copyright notices were a BFD.

Many projects use the GPL, and if it weren't for Stallman, I think many of them would use non-commercial licenses. The license on Perl 1.0 was "You may copy the perl kit in whole or in part as long as you don't try to make money off it, or pretend that you wrote it." The Artistic License 1.0 is still somewhat non-commercial; the fact that it was always used with the GPL is the reason the FSF and Debian didn't worry about it. Linux 0.01 says "You may not distribute this for a fee, not even "handling" costs." Besides the GPL and its predecessors, I'm not seeing any early copyleft licenses, so without RMS, I think any "open source" movement would have lost anyone who was unwilling to write code that could be taken proprietary and commercially sold.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 1, 2023 21:13 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (8 responses)

> The concept of open source wasn't happening before Stallman.

The original BSD license was created in 1988. The modern 4-clause BSD in 1990. GPLv1 was released in 1989.

So Open Source was definitely a thing before Stallman, though the term itself became popular a bit later.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 0:18 UTC (Mon) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

The EMACS General Public License predates the GNU GPL, so probably predates any 1988 BSD license. I would certainly expect that there are broad permissive licenses (at the very least, dedications to the public domain) that predate any copyleft license, though.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 1:12 UTC (Mon) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link] (5 responses)

There have been freely licensed programs for a long time. What I'm talking about is the idea itself, the idea of something that includes permissive and copyleft licenses, but excludes no-commercial, no-source and shareware licenses. I think that's crucial to the modern FOSS ecosystem; a lot of the people who switched from a no-commercial license to a GPL license (Perl, POV-Ray, Linux) wouldn't have switched to a BSD license, whereas they would have seen no reason to in many cases if no-commercial licenses were generally acceptable.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 1:21 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (4 responses)

Perl was available for commercial use before the license switch. Linux might not have existed, but BSD certainly would have.

The computing world would have been different, but I doubt that it would have been radically different. Open Source is still the best development model for large-scale projects (especially in infrastructure).

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 13:57 UTC (Mon) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link] (3 responses)

The license on Perl 1.0 was "You may copy the perl kit in whole or in part as long as you don't try to make money off it, or pretend that you wrote it." You can't sell it, and it's ambiguous if you can even use it commercially and in what ways.

BSD would have existed, but I don't think it would have stepped into Linux's shoes. Again, you lose the people not interested in BSD licensing. More subtly, Linus Torvalds went on to lead an open source kernel project; Bill Joy and Keith Bostic went on to sell proprietary versions of BSD.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 3, 2023 0:51 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

Perl 1 was licensed under Artistic License: https://opensource.org/license/artistic-1-0/

It allowed:

> c) rename any non-standard executables so the names do not conflict with standard executables, which must also be provided, and provide a separate manual page for each non-standard executable that clearly documents how it differs from the Standard Version.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 4, 2023 19:35 UTC (Wed) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link] (1 responses)

It's hard to find, but if you look at the Perl 1.0 source, e.g. https://github.com/AnaTofuZ/Perl-1.0/blob/master/README.orig , the license is

Perl Kit, Version 1.0

Copyright (c) 1987, Larry Wall

You may copy the perl kit in whole or in part as long as you don't try to
make money off it, or pretend that you wrote it.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 5, 2023 18:11 UTC (Thu) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

Thanks for setting the record straight. This is important.

rms involvement in other licenses

Posted Oct 2, 2023 19:56 UTC (Mon) by Hobart (subscriber, #59974) [Link]

http://techrights.org/o/2020/09/15/rmsf/#:~:text=Bostic%2...

> ...a quote directly from Bostic himself. I asked him about it, after reading this FSF page: "People sometimes ask whether BSD too is a version of GNU, like GNU/Linux. The BSD developers were inspired to make their code free software by the example of the GNU Project, and explicit appeals from GNU activists helped persuade them..."

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 8:05 UTC (Mon) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link] (3 responses)

The concept of open source wasn't happening before Stallman.

I is my understanding that code sharing was common before 1983, but we have to remember that sharing code was not so easy before the Internet was in widespread use. As an example, the "DECUS Tapes" was a distribution format that was used to share software to users of DEC hardware.

In fact, wasn't the decline in source code sharing that was happening in the early 1980s that motivated Richard Stallman to start the GNU Project?

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 13:38 UTC (Mon) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link] (2 responses)

Code sharing was common, but little was done under any formal license. And I'm talking about the concept of open source, this box we put around certain licenses excluding others, that says copyleft licenses are okay but e.g. non-commercial licenses aren't.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 14:57 UTC (Mon) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link] (1 responses)

It sounds like you are talking about the definition of Open Source, not the concept.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 5, 2023 19:21 UTC (Thu) by dvdeug (guest, #10998) [Link]

No, the concept of Open Source, that there is something that includes BSD style licenses and GPL style licenses and not no-derivatives or no-commercial-distribution. The precise definition doesn't matter, but excluding GPL style licenses or including ND or NC licenses makes for a very different concept that would drive very different communities.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 6:39 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> > even if we never did quite get that Empire game that Stallman promised.

> "... Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man” does not imply revolutionaries get the outcome they wanted. They typically don't.

In your typical revolution, revolutionaries are typically the first people against the wall once the revolution starts to settle down. How many Russian Revolutionaries were still alive in the early 1920s? And how many were executed *by the revolution*? Same goes for the French Revolution. I don't think the American Revolution was anywhere near as bloody as most in that sense.

Cheers,
Wol

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 13:07 UTC (Sat) by ghodgkins (subscriber, #157257) [Link] (5 responses)

> DRMs and streaming have (barely) saved the entertainment industry so of course this is not going to happen any time soon

With regards to DRM, what's your evidence for this? That sounds like something a lobbyist would say lol

As for streaming, it seems to me that it mostly saves the industry from passing on an appropriate share of profits to the creators of the entertainment.

> It's very nice the GNU is trying to help but this is far, far beyond _software_.

Yet, software is an important part of discussions of freedom in today's highly digitized and interconnected world, since it can be a very useful tool to alternately enable or subvert authoritarian goals. This would be why the report you linked includes "protecting a free and open Internet" as one of its action items.

While I think it's up for debate whether the FSF does this advocacy *effectively*, I don't really understand your condescension towards the basic idea that software freedom contributes towards greater freedom in general.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 14:46 UTC (Sat) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> With regards to DRM, what's your evidence for this?

My evidence is revenues which tanked massively during the Napster era and climbing back up significantly when (legal and DRM'ed) streaming took over. Pretty simple really.

> As for streaming, it seems to me that it mostly saves the industry from passing on an appropriate share of profits to the creators of the entertainment.

That is not mutually exclusive and true too, if you pay attention I wrote "barely". Though Hollywood writers just claimed a massive victory after months of strike, so stay tuned.

> That sounds like something a lobbyist would say lol

If you actually care about these topics and freedom in general then don't get your information from comment sections like this one (even though it's one of the best) and pay a few subscriptions to some reputable press instead. With information more then anything else, "if it's free you're the product" and the world needs journalists even more than entertainment IMHO (although the lines are getting blurred...)

> I don't really understand your condescension towards the basic idea that software freedom contributes towards greater freedom in general.

No idea what gave you this idea sorry.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 4, 2023 5:51 UTC (Wed) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (3 responses)

> As for streaming, it seems to me that it mostly saves the industry from passing on an appropriate share of profits to the creators of the entertainment.

Copyright was explicitly designed to do that from the moment (in the 18th century) it was enacted. Publishers tried to position the Statute of Anne as "protecting" the "rights" of authors, but the moment the ink was dry on the law, they immediately turned around and started demanding that authors sign nearly all of those rights away in order to publish anything. The real purpose of copyright is, was, and has always been to give publishers a government-sanctioned oligopoly, to the detriment of creatives and art in general (aside from the small number who manage to "break out" and make names for themselves - they get to meaningfully profit from their works, and so if you ask them, they'll all tell you the system is great).

It is probably too late for wholesale repeal at this point. But we should stop talking about publishers taking all the money as if it is unusual - it is how the system was explicitly designed to work. Technology has not changed a thing.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 4, 2023 14:41 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (1 responses)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights are supposed to mitigate that a little but (by design) they don't seem to make any economic difference and they seem mostly unknown in English speaking, Common Law countries that dominate the content industry (among others).

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 4, 2023 23:03 UTC (Wed) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

The American approach to fixing this problem consisted of two different methods:

First, Congress tried splitting the copyright term in half, and requiring authors to "renew" their copyrights for the second half. The idea was that the author would get a new copyright term and negotiate a new contract with the publisher. This did not work, because publishers just put renewal rights into the first contract, so there never needed to be a second contract. A large number of works inadvertently fell into the public domain when their copyrights were not renewed, but I don't think very many authors benefited from any of this.

In 1976, Congress rewrote the entire copyright law. Under the current system, renewal is no longer a thing. Instead, 35 years after you sign the contract, you have a five-year window in which you (or your immediate family if deceased) can terminate the license. You can then try to renegotiate the contract, either under threat of termination, or after it has already been terminated. This seems to work better, but it has led to a wide range of unintended side effects.

For example, the statute as written contains an exception for transfers "by will" (i.e. by a person's last will and testament), but many estate lawyers will tell you to put intangible property like copyrights into a trust before you die (presumably for tax reasons?), and that transfer is not a transfer "by will" and so it is not subject to the exception. Adding insult to injury, the termination rights themselves are inalienable and even a will cannot set out who holds them (the statute provides a fixed schedule of inheritance). Have an estranged child who hates you? They get your termination rights when you die, like it or not. It has also been suggested that any software engineer who has ever written FOSS could potentially repudiate their copyright license in this manner, but I don't think that one has been litigated yet.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 4, 2023 19:48 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

Thanks for the reminder.

Resellers are more business-savvy than creators and makers and smarter at lobbying, drafting the rules and gaming the systems. What's new? Not specific to copyright at all. It's the essence of their job after all.

Probably the most hilarious twist is extending copyright 70 years... _after the author's death_ Because authors are clearly motivated by making rich their grand-children who don't exist yet! :-D

Probably the most cunning twist is this recent one: letting e-book readers return books they've read and get their money back:
https://www.npr.org/2022/06/27/1107109243/amazon-kindle-e...
The most brilliant part is making some readers feel like they've outsmarted Big Tech.

> Technology has not changed a thing.

Once upon a not so distant time, some dreamers expected the Internet to help make more direct connections between people, shortcut all kinds of "evil" intermediaries and generally make the world a better place. Now we know what actually happened.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 7, 2023 6:46 UTC (Sat) by da4089 (subscriber, #1195) [Link] (7 responses)

>> Eventually, he said, consideration could be given to banning proprietary software entirely

> Did I mention la-la land?

Well, maybe.

I can see a path where some jurisdictions might ban closed-source software from government projects, for instance.

The question for free-software advocates then becomes: is this something that should be pursued?

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 8, 2023 2:11 UTC (Sun) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (6 responses)

Anyone and anything (gouvernement, administration, company,...) is already free to demand source code (under a variety of licences) as part of any deal and many already do. Probably more expensive (at least in the short term) but definitely the smartest thing to request and hopefully more and more common for obvious security, reliability and sustainability objectives.

Banning proprietary software entirely is a whole different level and it's not necessary to achieve these objectives. It's a much more ideological than practical goal. It's a much more extreme solution to "protect" consenting parties against their own will.

I'd much rather activists to focus on less conflictual and actually achievable goals like the Right to Repair (on which a lot of actual progress is being made). For instance a law could require any company shutting down any product line to open the corresponding code.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 8, 2023 9:17 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (5 responses)

> Banning proprietary software entirely is a whole different level and it's not necessary to achieve these objectives. It's a much more ideological than practical goal. It's a much more extreme solution to "protect" consenting parties against their own will.

Please define "consenting". At the consumer level, nearly everything is assumed to be "big company, individual consumer" and consent is deemed impossible, hence all the (European) consumer protection legislation.

Deals between individuals are deemed to be easily negotiable, hence the law doesn't go there.

The problem is (in Britain certainly) deals between businesses are deemed to be between equals, therefore easily negotiable, therefore the law doesn't go there. Unfortunately a mega-multi-national is deemed to be the equal of a sole trader, which clearly isn't the case, and therefore many businesses should be protected but have none.

At an absolute minimum, "take it or leave it" contracts should be subject to the "Unfair Clause" legislation.

Cheers,
Wol

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 8, 2023 12:08 UTC (Sun) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (3 responses)

> The problem is (in Britain certainly) deals between businesses are deemed to be between equals, therefore easily negotiable, therefore the law doesn't go there. Unfortunately a mega-multi-national is deemed to be the equal of a sole trader, which clearly isn't the case, and therefore many businesses should be protected but have none.

This is however exactly the problem certification is trying to solve. In contract negotiations or tenders it's much easier to demand some certification from a supplier than trying to negotiate individual terms. For example, as a buyer you can insist on Class A bananas and as a small business you'll get the same bananas as the big supermarkets. You don't have to worry about the terms suddenly changing during contract renegotiations. If the supplier refuses to give you the same terms even though they do give it to others, it's easier to declare unfair.

It's not all roses though. As a small business you might not have the ability to make the supplier certify themselves, so you'll need bigger businesses to push the suppliers first so you get the benefits too. One of the intended effects of the CRA is that businesses can include terms about cyber-security in their contracts without the seller just striking them out. It will take time to work through all the supply chains though.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 8, 2023 12:22 UTC (Sun) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

Sometimes, the small business is the supplier and the big business is the one making demands.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 8, 2023 13:55 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

> If the supplier refuses to give you the same terms even though they do give it to others, it's easier to declare unfair.

Unfortunately, in UK (and presumably European) law, there is no concept of "unfair" in commercial contracts.

Cheers,
Wol

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 8, 2023 20:52 UTC (Sun) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

> Unfortunately, in UK (and presumably European) law, there is no concept of "unfair" in commercial contracts.

Actually, in NL law, "reasonableness and fairness" is one of the foundations of Dutch contract law. All parties required to negotiate in good faith at all times. So yes, you can get unreasonable terms struck from a contract if the effect is deemed to be too detrimental to you (but you have to do your homework too).

Note that the impact of this is strongly determined by the relative strength of the parties and how much they paid lawyers in the drafting. If two multinationals with armies of lawyers negotiate, it's expected they thought of everything. If your small business is dealing with Microsoft, then you can absolutely get manifestly unfair clauses struck down. (Obviously Microsoft doesn't put them in in the first place, because they know they won't hold.)

I can't speak for the rest of Europe, though Wikipedia suggests that at least in the German speaking area and EU-law as a whole this is a thing, where it forms the basis of consumer protection law. Common law jurisdictions have tended to be averse to using the concept in the broad sense (though Canada may be the exception).

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 8, 2023 15:17 UTC (Sun) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

Lack of competition, intense lobbying and unbalanced relationships are of course the main biases in free markets but these are problems much larger than software! This is exactly the FSF problem: biting much more than software can chew. This can upset even software people who don't disagree with the political goals but who prefer software licences to be only about software and to deal with politics _separately_ and on a much wider and more efficient scale. This is IMHO also why the FSF has stayed mostly unknown by the general public[*]: software is hard enough to understand alone, good luck drawing attention to political ideas in software (?!) that solve problems people don't understand they have. It's just too weird and obscure. The Right to Repair has a lot more traction because it starts from a simple problem that everyone understands and software is just one part of that larger and well identified problem.

[*] Nice try with "GNU/Linux"

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 29, 2023 21:23 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (11 responses)

> Luis Falcon discussed GNU Health, a hospital information system with active deployments worldwide.

Here's a quest: try to find the reference to their source code repository from the https://www.gnuhealth.org/ website.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 29, 2023 21:53 UTC (Fri) by jkingweb (subscriber, #113039) [Link] (9 responses)

Indeed, it's not exactly front-and-center; were it not GNU you might be forgiven for thinking there is no public repository.

Anyway, It didn't take _that_ much digging, honestly. Go to the documentation, look at the "technical" section of the table of contents and see "Contributing" at the bottom. This last is jargon, of course, but not uncommon. Eventually you're taken, unsurprisingly, to Savannah.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 29, 2023 21:56 UTC (Fri) by gray_-_wolf (subscriber, #131074) [Link] (8 responses)

And you cannot find any of that without javascript. And it does not bother to tell you to turn it on. Awesome.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 0:24 UTC (Sat) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (7 responses)

> And you cannot find any of that without javascript. And it does not bother to tell you to turn it on. Awesome.

This sort of comment is why Free Software activists are routinely dismissed as nutcases.

Whether you like it or not, Javascript is necessary if you want (or need) to participate in society.

Meanwhile, I'd wager that you can't actually _use_ GNU Health (much less actually "compile" and deploy it) without the use of Javascript.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 9:28 UTC (Sat) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link] (6 responses)

Well, you missed some salient context

- The hypocrisy of a _GNU_ project requiring JavaScript

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html

- I have yet to see a single compile toolchain that requires JavaScript... ?

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 17:53 UTC (Sat) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (5 responses)

> - The hypocrisy of a _GNU_ project requiring JavaScript
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html

Did you actually _read_ this page? It's all about _proprietary_ software running in your browser; it's _completely_ irrelevant if the actual javascript is free software. Lots of Free Software applications utilize or are written entirely in javascript, and IIRC this includes several GNU packages. (Notably anything relating to the fediverse, but I'm sure there are others)

So no, it's not remotely hypocritical for GNU to rail against proprietary javascript on web sites, while simultaneously utilizing or even requiring Free Software Javascript for various GNU applications or websites.

(Folks that refuse to use javascript at all because "it's proprietary" reminds me of Orthodox Jews that can't do any "work" on the Sabbath, which in practice means getting non-Jews to get stuff done for them.)

> - I have yet to see a single compile toolchain that requires JavaScript... ?

You mean other than everything implemented with node?

GNU health is a web-based application. The odds are _very_ high that it utilizes Javascript on the frontend, as Javascript is hands-down the best way to implement dynamic and responsive web applications. It may also utilize Javascript in the backend too.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 1, 2023 7:00 UTC (Sun) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link] (3 responses)

The page includes several Javascript snippets. Only one is a minified version: https://www.gnuhealth.org/js/jquery-3.4.1.min.js . The file has a link to the license, but not to the full source.

All others are not minified so the source code is available.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 1, 2023 12:18 UTC (Sun) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

> The page includes several Javascript snippets. Only one is a minified version: https://www.gnuhealth.org/js/jquery-3.4.1.min.js . The file has a link to the license, but not to the full source.

...yeah, so?

The fact is that jquery 3.4.1 is undeniably free software, and its MIT license does not specify copyleft-style "full source" redistribution provisions much less specify mechanisms for obtaining said source. That said, if you want the "full source" it is trivial to obtain. [1] [2]

So, please explain how this inconsistent with (much less hypocritical wrt) the GNU's "javascript trap" essay about the pitfalls of *proprietarty* javascript on the commercial internet?

I repeat myself, this sort of objection/demand just makes Free Software advocates be dismissed as unreasonable zealots that you're best not engaging with. It's no wonder that "open source" has decisively won the ongoing battle for developer mindshare.

[1] License link in min.js, products, jquery, past releases, all versions, find 3.4.1 on the page, uncompressed. [3]
[2] It seems to me that jquery could put a direct link to the unminified version if they wanted to, but clearly they think their users are smart enough to figure this out on their own.
[4] If you think this is too haaaard, it's fully GPL compliant to require writing a snail mail letter accompanied with a small amount of money, and waiting for potentially weeks.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 5:47 UTC (Mon) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link] (1 responses)

Um. No. You missed the point. Again.

The point was the article was written by your "Free Software Zealots"

You've taken it upon yourself to defend the FSF, which was founded by a zealot, and probably consists of many who would probably happily describe themselves as free software zealots, from... themselves?

No one in the FSF needs you to defend them against.. FSF zealots.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 12:42 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Um. No. You missed the point. Again.
> The point was the article was written by your "Free Software Zealots"

And you're the one attacking GNU for being hypocritical. [1]

> No one in the FSF needs you to defend them against.. FSF zealots.

So.. you consider yourself an FSF zealot?

(What's the saying; with friends like that, who needs enemies?)

So, in the interest of clarity, please explain to us how it's hypocritical for the GNU web site to contain an essay railing against proprietary javascript on web pages, while "allowing" GNU software project to require Free Software javascript in order to function properly.

[1] To quote you, "The hypocrisy of a _GNU_ project requiring JavaScript"

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 5:51 UTC (Mon) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]

>You mean other than everything implemented with node?

nodejs projects aren't compiled. Minified. Maybe transpiled if you're playing around with Typescript. But not compiled.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 7:40 UTC (Sat) by lkundrak (subscriber, #43452) [Link]

Tried, failed.

It's a shame. Especially nowadays that the search engines don't work anymore and and every search for a git repository leads to a GitHub mirror.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 3:27 UTC (Sat) by ccchips (subscriber, #3222) [Link] (3 responses)

I once told my uncle, who was in the construction business, that proprietary software was like his owning a house but being denied access to the blueprints. He told me his gated community denied him access to his house's blueprints.

He wound up reverse-engineering his house, so he could remodel it. The HOA didn't complain; in fact, he always had the right to "studs-in" changes. He just had to figure out about the "studs-out" part.

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Sep 30, 2023 14:20 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

Thing is, how accurate were those blueprints? Had the previous owner changed things?

I guess that may be the problem there, they didn't want to give him information that could well have been wrong, and they wouldn't have known it was wrong. (Plus, of course, did the builders stick to the blueprints?)

Cheers,
Wol

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 1, 2023 18:40 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

I think you have missed the important part of that story. FSF fought for the world where software is like any other commodity and comes with blueprints.

What have we got instead? A world where software is like any other commodity and nothing comes with blueprints.

A common argument used by free software advocates sounds as “would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?”

But guys born in XXI century don't even understand the question! Yeah, sure, why not? I don't ever open the hood of my Tesla, anyway, why would I be offended if it's welded shut or not?

Impressions from the GNU Project's 40th anniversary celebration

Posted Oct 2, 2023 14:00 UTC (Mon) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

> What have we got instead? A world where software is like any other commodity and nothing comes with blueprints.

Alas I think you nailed it.

Empire -- the game - was released as Free Software in 1998

Posted Oct 6, 2023 12:09 UTC (Fri) by ber (subscriber, #2142) [Link]

> even if we never did quite get that Empire game that Stallman promised.

In the 90s I was playing the original game empire and approached the developers to change the license to release it as Free Software. I could convince them to use the GNU GPL as license, so we've got the promised game. :)

To quote from http://web.archive.org/web/20041214042630/http://www.wolf...

> Changes to Empire 4.2.0 - Thu Oct 29 06:27:15 PST 1998
> * Bumped rev to 4.2.0 since this is a major release
> (the server [..] is released under the GNU GPL.)
> * Put in official licensing information.

Here is the archived last page for "Wolfpack Empire", which it was called to avoid clashes with other games which "empire" in their name: http://web.archive.org/web/20041204144607/http://www.wolf...


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