Forty years of GNU

Posted Sep 21, 2023 11:38 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341)
In reply to: Forty years of GNU by mjg59
Parent article: Forty years of GNU

He may not be capable of what you want, and I don't disagree with your view at the end per se. That said, tolerance of and accommodation of disabilities is also a good thing. https://lwn.net/Articles/945187/

Forty years of GNU

Posted Sep 21, 2023 11:46 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (6 responses)

Taking this to a ludicrous extreme, I don't think we'd assert that someone who uncontrollably stabbed a small percentage of people they met was within the acceptable range of inclusion for a public-facing role.

Forty years of GNU

Posted Sep 21, 2023 12:00 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (5 responses)

Not using a pronoun, based on a (non-malicious) technical and aesthetic grammatical analysis and a reasoned preference for some other pronoun, is hardly the same thing. Indeed, it isn't any form of violence at all (sorry, but it's not - they're words).

A well-rounded person should be able to cope with a well-meaning autistic-type person using words in odd ways (inc. using pronouns in ways other than the well-rounded person would prefer).

Forty years of GNU

Posted Sep 21, 2023 13:59 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (4 responses)

The socio-political climate is such that it's not possible to separate a refusal to use correct pronouns for aesthetic reasons from a refusal to do so because you don't recognise the individual's gender. Is it as bad as literal physical violence? No, but denying it causes harm is ridiculous in the same as as asserting that people shouldn't be hurt by racial slurs is ridiculous. And, just to go back to my original point, you're deciding to argue this while having no personal experience of interacting with rms, and ignoring the fact that I was responding to someone claiming that he'd change behaviour if someone pointed out it was hurtful (which, in this case, he has explicitly chosen not to do).

Forty years of GNU

Posted Sep 21, 2023 14:48 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (3 responses)

I think it's fairly easy to see RMS' refusal has nothing to do with the other socio-political stuff. Yes, he should just go along with requests out of social politeness generally, but... this is his strong point and weakness: He sticks to what he thinks is technically correct. But a reasonable, well-rounded human being should be able to hear "pers" rather than "they" and not be terribly offended or hurt, given the person uttering them has an easy to find essay on their aesthetic and technical reasons for this (which probably was discussed directly, given you mention "at length" discussion with RMS on this).

On personal experience, again, a number of people have engaged in a campaign to paint RMS as unsuitable for any kind of visible role in FS, resulting in numerous tweets, blogs, and articles in various tech media (inc. here). To the extent that /any/ article touching on RMS now, inc this one marking the anniversary of GNU, has comments intended to further that campaign.

It is impossible for me - or any one else who participates in Free Software, and who has any kind of influence in things (inc., in paying dues) - to not have to read and form judgements. I, and everyone else, is being _encouraged_ to engage with this and form a judgement, particularly to condemn and excommunicate RMS.

And while in the beginning I took the accusations at face value, and was greatly disappointed in RMS and him being something of a low-level sex predator, the more I read the more it struck me the claims lacked substance. And when I interrogate those who are informed in the claims (and who I consider reasonable and good-faith actors - hence worth engaging with), and reading more of the falsehoods in some of the claims, I have since gone the other way. I have become very sceptical of this campaign. To the point I consider it mostly an unwarranted smear campaign, and maliciously so in some cases.

Again, I, and everyone else, was surely _invited_ to engage with those accusations and judge RMS by those who raise them (and keep doing so). That was the point of that campaign. We can't be blamed for doing so and digging into the evidence and interrogating things. And having done so, I find I am _required_ to push back against a lot of the accusations - as they lack substance, or they are simply false, or they indicate social-awkwardness issues in RMS *and* potentially /also/ some slight degree of a lack of tolerance, flexibility, and/or empathy from the /accuser/. I can't sit by, I just think - having followed this and dug in, that where one side is put forth someone should at least put the other side.

On the change behaviour comment: Can't say myself, don't have experience. Interested in data-points. That type of personality I can imagine would be willing to change on general social points when they were pointed out to them, but also that personality will dig in completely on any point where they have formed some "technically correct" view. ;)

Forty years of GNU

Posted Sep 21, 2023 14:50 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Oh, and obviously, they succeeded in that campaign. He has lost roles. And many presumably now think RMS is some kind of sex predator. Mud sticks.

Forty years of GNU

Posted Sep 21, 2023 15:00 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

And just on the pronoun issue, note that RMS is actually acknowledging the need for another pronoun (not doing the socio-political-battle thing of refusing and using he or she), just RMS then thinks on technical grounds he can /improve/ on the better pronouns. Being RMS, he's convinced of his own reasoned correctness and...

There surely is a difference and it should be possible to see the intent, and avoid being hurt?

Forty years of GNU

Posted Sep 21, 2023 16:27 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> There surely is a difference and it should be possible to see the intent, and avoid being hurt?

You're being rational. Most people aren't.

And, from my view, I'm sorry but my world revolves around me. What I call myself is IMPORTANT. What refers to ME is IMPORTANT. I can put up with people making mistakes, but I get seriously offended if they choose not to get it right.

Okay, I try to reciprocate that - I use your choice of name when referring to you, I use your choice of pronoun (if it doesn't grate too much with me), etc etc. I would be (and am) insulted by people not using my choice of name, therefore it's only right I should use your choice.

(But not least, it's important because if you don't refer to me on my terms, how am I supposed to know you're referring to me? :-)

Cheers,
Wol