Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 18, 2023 13:24 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46)
In reply to: Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support) by dskoll
Parent article: Debian adds LoongArch support

> The general principle I'm applying is that Free Software developers shouldn't assist a government that actively oppresses its citizens, is committing genocide, acts as a loan shark to effectively take control over poor developing countries, and aggressively threatens its neighbors.

Those words have applied to the USA (ie my own nation) many, many shameful times over the course of its existence; even as recently as a few years ago -- and arguably still do to this day.

> No country is perfect, but we have to draw the line somewhere. I think drawing it using data from Freedom House's index and from resolutions passed by many democratically-elected legislatures is more defensible

This is at least a consistent position to take, and I think that's all that was asked for.

Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 18, 2023 23:26 UTC (Fri) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (4 responses)

It's off topic for this forum so I apologise, but like dskoll I find this implied moral equivalence between the USA and China to be repugnant. It is offensive to the Chinese people suffering under the CCP regime --- the Uyghurs, the organ harvestees, the persecuted churches, the Falun Gong, and the everyday citizens who have no say in their government and whose every communications medium is subject to strict and petty government censorship. (And like dskoll, I'm not American; I lived and worked in the USA for a time, a long time ago.)

Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 19, 2023 0:24 UTC (Sat) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (3 responses)

> It's off topic for this forum so I apologise, but like dskoll I find this implied moral equivalence between the USA and China to be repugnant.

It is only a moral equivalence insofar as the criteria that dskoll (originally) espoused would apply equally to most major nations, when in fact he was actually advocating for a more nuanced (and IMO morally defensible) stance.

That said, "nuanced" in this context is an acknowledgement that you believe freedoms should not be absolute. I find this ironic given the heaps of disdain being heaped upon Red Hat for placing some restrictions/consequences upon exercising freedoms.

Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 22, 2023 14:52 UTC (Tue) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (2 responses)

“My liberty ends where yours begins”

Even enlightment authors recognized that absolute freedoms are not workable in the real world. You can at best achieve some form of balancing act.

Arguing for absolutes is dangerous because it is real easy to get disilusionned and switch to a destructive since this can not be achieved nothing matters stance. Decent people compromise every day in life.

Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 22, 2023 15:27 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

> Arguing for absolutes is dangerous because it is real easy to get disilusionned and switch to a destructive since this can not be achieved nothing matters stance. Decent people compromise every day in life.

"Pick two of three. Any two"

And that includes freedoms. I'm well known I suspect for railing against freedom of speech. Not because I don't believe freedom of speech isn't a good thing (it is), but because freedom of speech destroys other things.

The American Constitution guarantees the freedom to seek happiness. But free speech and the pursuit of wealth means that America figures very low in the Western World's happiness index. From pizza's remarks it sounds like the Han Chinese quite possibly are higher up the happiness index than your typical American ...

Cheers,
Wol

Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 22, 2023 15:55 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> The American Constitution guarantees the freedom to seek happiness.

Not quite -- "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" is in the US declaration of independence.

The actual constitution doesn't state anything about rights, at least not until the bill of rights that comprised the first ten adopted amendments.

But even the bill of rights just says "No person shall [...] be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;"

Happiness (or the pursuit thereof) is conspicuously absent.