Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 17, 2023 15:12 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
In reply to: Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support) by farnz
Parent article: Debian adds LoongArch support

You're now arguing over the degree to which Loongson are responsible for the effects of complying with local military demands to allow them access to their technology, as opposed to the degree to which you are personally responsible for the effects of funding your local military via taxes, and the degree to which other semiconductor companies are responsible for complying with local military demands.

Yes, of course. But I can choose to collaborate (or not) with Loonson. I can't choose not to pay taxes unless I want to ruin my life. If I thought my taxes were funding something so heinous that I'd be willing to ruin my life, I'd stop paying them, but I don't.

And yes, it's not an easy dilemma. But I think it is unethical of developers to completely push aside the ethical questions by disavowing any control they have over who they collaborate with.

Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 17, 2023 15:22 UTC (Thu) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (4 responses)

You've already said that you can choose to not pay taxes, at a cost to yourself. But you are condemning Loongson because it (effectively) has not been willing to refuse to pay taxes.

Why are you permitted to say "the cost to me of not paying local taxes is too high", but Loongson is not permitted to say "the cost to us of not paying local taxes is too high"?

Similarly, why is it bad to collaborate with Loongson, but not to collaborate with IBM, SUSE or other companies in the US and Canada? The only reason Loongson is on the US EAR Entity List is that it's not willing to refuse to allow its local government to buy its semiconductors for military purposes - but many of the companies not on the EAR list are not only willing to allow their local governments to buy their products for military purposes, but also to actively work on military applications for those products?

As an ethical argument, this boils down to "my country is right, yours is wrong", and that's problematic. There may well be practical reasons to not collaborate with Loongson (e.g. "I live in the USA, and my local prosecutors will treat me as an enemy collaborator if I do so"), but that's not an ethical basis for that decision.

Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 17, 2023 18:17 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (3 responses)

The problem is that Loonsong is forced to collaborate with a dictatorship. It really has no choice whatsoever. Companies in the United States are of course subject to government rules and requests, but there is a legal framework in place for them to challenge requests they think are unconstitutional or improper.

And yes, it does boil down to the fact that the Chinese government is far more oppressive than governments in democratic countries, especially liberal Western democracies. I don't think anyone can credibly dispute that.

The argument you are making, IMO, is unethical, which is: We can't hold anyone to account because nobody is perfect. It's called Whataboutism.

Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 18, 2023 9:12 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (2 responses)

I think it is quite easy to dispute your claim about oppression. I think a strong case can be made that the USA is one of the most oppressive states on the planet the last 50 odd years, if we consider foreign policy and civilian body count.

Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 18, 2023 18:13 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (1 responses)

Despite some very bad things the USA has done, I do not think it's credible to rate it as badly as the Chinese Communist Party if we're talking the last 50-odd years.

Regardless, even if you think the USA is as bad as or worse than China, then that is an argument for not collaborating with the US government. It's not an argument for collaborating with the Chinese government.

Maybe this is getting too philosophical (was: Debian adds LoongArch support)

Posted Aug 18, 2023 22:23 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Regardless, even if you think the USA is as bad as or worse than China, then that is an argument for not collaborating with the US government. It's not an argument for collaborating with the Chinese government.

Here's the thing -- I have never collaborated with either, yet I'm only two degrees of separation from both.