Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
Posted Aug 2, 2023 16:05 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341)In reply to: Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view by khim
Parent article: Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
An affordable, capable, available, well documented (thanks to being built out of commodity chips with manufacturer docs + fact that hardware programming docs were still normal back then) computer was simply inevitable.
There were several such computers in existence then for cris sakes, inc 2 different m68ks (and that there were some differences in supporting hardware, well same was true of PCs - particularly the PC-98, and that didn't stop Linux running on that)! The market picked one to become dominant. It could have picked any of them.
Posted Aug 2, 2023 16:34 UTC (Wed)
by jwarnica (subscriber, #27492)
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It's hard to predict the future, but even harder to predict alternative histories.
Posted Aug 2, 2023 17:01 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
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The i386 PC won, thanks to the fortunate events, and size, and execution, of IBM, Intel and Compaq from the 8086 PC on. But had that not happened, some other combination of manufacturers would have had mass market 32-bit, affordable (if not super cheap), MMU equipped computers.
Why imagine it, when Acorn, Amiga, Atari, etc., existed and had such machines on the market (the Amiga 3000 with the MMU equipped 68030, the Archimedes). That they didn't succeed against the PC is not an argument that the market would not have existed without the PC. Bizarre.
Posted Aug 2, 2023 17:15 UTC (Wed)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
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They would have existed. And they would have worked in the same fashion as smartphones worked: you only can run OS supplied with hardware and nothing else. Well, maybe community-made OS made specifically for this one, specific, device. If you are lucky. They still exist in some fashion. And that's how Linux would have existed in a world without PC: some kinda weird thingie used by some weirdos. Similarly to how VAX “still exists today” or Genera “still exists today”. People often wonder why we don't have common OS for all smartphones or all WiFi routers or all smart TVs… but that's natural state of affairs. It's PC platform that's weird: you can actually take one single image and run Linux on devices from many vendors. Why do you think it works? Why do you think there are half-dozen RISC-V images ?
Posted Aug 2, 2023 21:09 UTC (Wed)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
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In the early 1990s, Minix was available commercially for a variety of platforms including PCs and the Atari ST. It's true that Minix wasn't much of an operating system, but after all it is what Linus used to bootstrap Linux, so it wasn't entirely useless.
(IIRC Minix did work rather better on the Atari ST than on the PC (XT) because you had more RAM to play with, which in the absence of virtual memory was something of an advantage.)
Posted Aug 2, 2023 21:41 UTC (Wed)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
We had that on smartphones, too. I even remember few early Android games which would have different versions for HTC Dream, Nexus S and so on. At some point the zoo have grown so large that people stopped doing that and today most smartphones never get support for anything but what hardware manufacturer provides for them. Lack of that zoo is what made Linux viable and it's just pure luck that IBM lost control over IBM PC zoo precisely when it was passing from “programs talk to hardware directly thus hardware compatibility is required” to “hardware is now powerful enough to afford real OS”. DOS program were in wide use till XXI century and hardware manufacturers had to support compatibility all that time — and by the beginning of XXI century Linux was already established enough for server manufacturers to not ignore it (although they supported quite a zoo of different OSes back then, the important thing was that Linux was there already and no other free OSes were there, timing was critical for the viability of Linux).
Posted Aug 3, 2023 9:45 UTC (Thu)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
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I mean, "Well, maybe community-made OS made specifically for this one, specific, device. If you are lucky." - you're describing Linux.
The luck here was Linus and the other hackers he attracted around Linux.
The i386 PC is an unimportant detail. *MANY* companies were racing to build affordable, commodity, capable, 32bit, MMU with paging, machines and get them out into the hands of the mass market. It was inevitable one or more of the *MANY* companies who _had long_ seen this opportunity and were _rushing_ to fulfil it would in fact _do what they were already trying to do_.
Posted Aug 2, 2023 16:46 UTC (Wed)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
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And you are missing mine. And yet, if it's hardware would have been controlled by one, single, company — it wouldn't have mattered. Except market haven't picked just one of them. That's what happened. And that's incredibly rare thing. Yes. If market would have picked just any one of them — there would have been no Linux. Linus would still have wrote his terminal emulator, there are no doubt about that. But it would have never become an ubiquitous OS if not for the hardware from many competing vendors. Look on what happened with game consoles. Once upon time these, too, were “an affordable, capable, available, well documented” devices. Yet… what happened to them now?
Posted Aug 3, 2023 7:33 UTC (Thu)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
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The entire business model of game consoles has (at least historically) been to sell moderately powerful computers at slightly below cost, and make up the losses in game sales. If you can't sell (enough) games because you can't (sufficiently) control the OS, then you have to raise the price of the console above the price of a comparable gaming PC (or some competing console), and then consumers notice the price is too high and jump ship. That does not apply to generic commodity computers, which are normally sold above cost, the manufacturer does not care what happens after the consumer buys one, and there is (for the most part) nowhere else for consumers to go if the price is too high (aside from other manufacturers of the same product).
It sounds like your claim is that a similar business model (sell lots of software to subsidize your underpriced hardware) would have developed for commodity computers, but I find that difficult to believe. The whole point of games is that they are, to some extent, consumable. You play a game, and then, eventually, you stop playing it and go play something else instead. You may, eventually, return to an old game, but you're still going to want to play something new every now and then, so you keep buying new games. This is not how generic productivity software works - users buy the software they want, and then it may be many years between paid updates, particularly in the time period we're talking about (i.e. long before the subscription model became standardized). You simply don't have enough of a steady income stream to pay for all the hardware.
Posted Aug 3, 2023 8:29 UTC (Thu)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
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Nope. I'm just saying that attempt to close thing up is natural for the business. It's almost instinct. John Deere doesn't sell it's devices below cost, now, does it? Yet it locks them up. And the same thing is done by printer manufacturers (although in that case some models are sold below cost) and makers of anything complex enough to be locked up. Even if there are no actual, full-blown, crypto-key-enabled lock down there are no incentive to make things compatible with one, single, Linux image (look on these endless attempt to develop a way to create one, single, Linux kernel image for ARM devices). If PC market is an exception (and it is an exception) then there needs to be reason for it to behave differently from all other markets. Part of the reason is the use of software supplied buy third party developers. But even bigger reason is OS supplied by third-party. PC is unique not because it has lots of programs (smartphones or IBM servers have lots of software, too), but because OS and hardware come from different source (OS from Microsoft, PCs from hundreds of hardware vendors). This is what's unique in a PC world and this is result of lucky accident which happened when IBM lost control over IBM PC-compatibles market. But without Microsoft being big enough to force a single standard there would have been balkanisation and lock downs, anyway (witness development of Androd or smart TVs).
Posted Aug 4, 2023 1:33 UTC (Fri)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link]
John Deere has a business model where they charge you an arm and a leg for first-party repairs. Printer manufacturers have a business model where they pretend that their ink is more valuable than unicorn blood. Both of those business models are defeated by user tampering.
> Even if there are no actual, full-blown, crypto-key-enabled lock down there are no incentive to make things compatible with one, single, Linux image (look on these endless attempt to develop a way to create one, single, Linux kernel image for ARM devices).
Do you mean at the time, or now? Because now, if you try to sell a computer that doesn't run Linux, you'll find that the datacenter side of the equation is wholly uninterested in dealing with you, so you'll have to retail them to individual consumers, which is much more of a PITA than selling them in bulk directly to FAANG or whoever (not to mention, you probably get lower margins on retail than B2B).
At the time, of course, datacenters were less of a "commodity hardware" thing and more of a "nobody gets fired for buying DEC/IBM/what-have-you" thing. Nevertheless, I tend to imagine that, in a B2B context, you're inevitably going to have startups eyeing the cheap end of the market, and asking questions about exactly how much you get for paying the IBM tax. Under a balkanized hypothetical, you'll have companies picking the cheap arch, or even companies trying to use multiple arches and figuring "hey, they all speak TCP/IP, right?" Inevitably, the inefficiencies here will drive the more expensive arches to become more niche and specialized, and the cheap arches towards the mainstream. That's just the invisible hand of capitalism.
> (witness development of Androd or smart TVs).
The difference is, nobody is trying to build a datacenter out of phones or TV sets. Some people are buying Android in bulk for their employees, but they save money with BYOD rather than by buying cheap devices. So there's much less economic pressure on the inefficiency, and it persists.
Posted Aug 3, 2023 9:40 UTC (Thu)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
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One thing is certain though, when *many* companies _have already_ been working on building ever more capable, ever cheaper, ever more commodity computers; as most of society (even outside the actual people in the industry) are agreed computers are going to revolutionise things; it was _inevitable_ we were going to get *exactly the thing those many companies were already competing to provide*: A capable, affordable computer suitable for hobbyists to tinker on and write OSes that were never going to amount to anything.
tl;dr: Had Intel, IBM, Compaq - and the following army of cloners - not won dominance, Linus would have been hacking on an Amiga 3000, or an Atari ST, or an Alpha, or... etc. And we would still today have computers everywhere (from your pocket to your car to servers, to the moon) running Linux. Regardless of architecture.
And gosh, Linus *was* hacking on an Alpha by the mid-90s. ;) Maddog didn't mention he arranged that. (And the little Alpha 150 workstation DEC made was fairly cheap - almost affordable; I think Slashdot began running on one of those!).
Posted Aug 3, 2023 10:49 UTC (Thu)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
http://www.obsolyte.com/dec/multia/
Note the many OSes it could run. A bit later, but the path towards this was inevitable.
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
> That they didn't succeed against the PC is not an argument that the market would not have existed without the PC.
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
And they would have worked in the same fashion as smartphones worked: you only can run OS supplied with hardware and nothing else. Well, maybe community-made OS made specifically for this one, specific, device.
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
> You're missing my point really.
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
> It sounds like your claim is that a similar business model (sell lots of software to subsidize your underpriced hardware) would have developed for commodity computers
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
Hall: IBM, Red Hat and Free Software: An old maddog’s view
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