A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 2, 2023 10:44 UTC (Fri) by zorro (subscriber, #45643)
In reply to: A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco by NYKevin
Parent article: A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

> at the end of it all, JeanHeyd was asked/told "how do you feel about demoting your keynote to a regular talk?"

A reasonable answer could have been "Sure, no problem, but may I ask why?" instead of all the drama.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 2, 2023 12:46 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (28 responses)

You've missed the point. JeanHayd was MASSIVELY insulted, on MANY levels.

You do not give a formal invite, to someone who hadn't planned on even attending, to be a keynote speaker AND THEN WITHDRAW THE INVITE, JUST BECAUSE.

And that's probably not even the biggest insult. I don't blame him for just walking. Maybe I wouldn't have, but insults at that level go very deep.

Cheers,
Wol

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 2, 2023 21:01 UTC (Fri) by tbird20d (subscriber, #1901) [Link] (27 responses)

I disagree. While there was an offense, and an insult, it wasn't "MASSIVE". Jean wasn't uninvited to speak. He was asked if he would mind downgrading his keynote to a regular talk. This is simply not the end of the world. He could have pushed back, saying he was offended, and a possible outcome would be that they let the talk be keynote anyway (since they already asked him), and let the complainers deal with it. This much hew and cry over whether a talk is a keynote or not is disproportionate.

It is too much drama for this level of insult. Many members of leadership are falling on their swords and walking away, over a relatively minor slight, IMHO. See https://hackmd.io/p3VG_bK9TXOvtgh1oA2yZQ?view for Josh Triplett's account of what happened. The amount of angst and self-recrimination here (not just by Josh, but by a whole lot of people) is just too much.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 2, 2023 23:18 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (26 responses)

Again, you miss the point. THE ONLY REASON he was giving the talk, was because he had been formally invited. How would you feel, if you were asked OUT OF THE BLUE to be your mate's best man, only to be told later his parents had given the job to someone else? It's a huge snub.

I'd certainly be questioning whether I even wanted to be at the wedding after that, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

You don't give someone an honour they weren't expecting, then just withdraw it for no reason, without expecting consequences.

Cheers,
Wol

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 3, 2023 9:09 UTC (Sat) by zorro (subscriber, #45643) [Link] (20 responses)

> You don't give someone an honour they weren't expecting, then just withdraw it for no reason, without expecting consequences.

They did not withdraw it for no reason. There was a reason: his chosen keynote topic was controversial.

Was this a SNAFU from the RustConf side? Absolutely. Very amateurish. But the hysteric reactions look straight from an elementary school yard.

And what is the biggest consequence of all this? That JeanHeyd burned his Rust introspection work to the ground. I'm sure the Rust project is really upset about this.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 3, 2023 9:49 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (15 responses)

Rust: Would you like to give a keynote?

JH: Yes, the topic will be "reflection", but beware it could be controversial.

Rust: That's great, no problem, let's get it organised.

Rust: We don't like your topic - it's too controversial. Would you downgrade your talk?

WHERE in that is a genuine reason? Rust ASKED him to give a keynote on reflection, then asked him not to. Rust changed their mind for no valid reason whatsoever.

> Was this a SNAFU from the RustConf side? Absolutely. Very amateurish. But the hysteric reactions look straight from an elementary school yard.

Unfortunately, SNAFUs have consequences. On a personal level that sort of snafu destroys trust. On a professional level that sort of snafu destroys trust. You talk about "elementary school yard" - imho the kid who is prepared to overlook a snafu like that is the unloved kid who is desperate for any attention, even abuse ...

Cheers,
Wol

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 3, 2023 14:18 UTC (Sat) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link] (14 responses)

They changed their mind. That's it.

There are two possible reactions to this: Deal with it or act like a preschool kid.

Welcome to real life, where people do stupid decisions that we all have to deal with it. It's part of growing up to deal with these things.

I really don't see the big "fiasco" here.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 3, 2023 15:55 UTC (Sat) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (13 responses)

> They changed their mind. That's it.

Sure, Google "just changed their mind" when they dropped Google News or any of their innumerable products. Fast forward to today, where hardly anyone trusts Google to keep any new service running for more than a year or two (or even services that have been running for a decade!) which severely hurts uptake and adoption of anything they try to launch (most recently Stadia, which became a self-fulfilling prophecy!)

So no, there are very real _consequences_ for the folks in charge of Rust "changing their mind", especially in light of the sub-par reputation they're continuing to show is well-earned.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 3, 2023 16:38 UTC (Sat) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link] (12 responses)

> Google
> which severely hurts uptake and adoption of anything they try to launch

https://www.google.de/search?q=google+yearly+revenue

Does not look like a company that has trouble with product adoption to me.

> So no, there are very real _consequences_ for the folks in charge of Rust "changing their mind",
> especially in light of the sub-par reputation they're continuing to show is well-earned.

Yes. There are consequences for everything. And we simply have to live with the consequences. People usually learn how to do that when growing up.

But this is a tempest in a tea cup.
This is about re-categorizing a talk from Keynote to Regular Talk.

Yes, this is annoying. Yes, they could have done better.
But this is not the end of the world.
Get over it.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 4, 2023 1:43 UTC (Sun) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (10 responses)

> Does not look like a company that has trouble with product adoption to me.

Google has one profitable product: Advertising. Everything else is funnels eyeballs (and/or user data) into that.

Meanwhile, despite being wildly profitable, Google has killed (as of this counting) 285 products, most of which had sizeable userbases.

https://killedbygoogle.com/

> Get over it.

The folks directly affected by this "got over it" by ending their involvement with the Rust project altogether.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 4, 2023 7:08 UTC (Sun) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link] (9 responses)

> Meanwhile, despite being wildly profitable, Google has killed (as of this counting) 285 products,
> most of which had sizeable userbases.

Companies start and terminate products all the time. That's just a normal thing to do. It's not specific to Google.
The purpose of a company is not to provide a product forever, but to make revenue.

> The folks directly affected by this "got over it" by
> ending their involvement with the Rust project altogether.

Exactly.
Ending their involvement just because a talk has been changed from Keynote to Regular is just the behavior I would expect from children.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 4, 2023 12:05 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

*Asking* for a keynote talk, and then downgrading it to a regular talk, is exactly the behaviour I would expect from bullies.

"Sometimes the only way to win, is to refuse to play". When dealing with hormone-laden pre-teens like Rust, I think that's a pretty adult response ...

Cheers,
Wol

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 4, 2023 13:30 UTC (Sun) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link]

>*Asking* for a keynote talk, and then downgrading it to a regular talk,
>is exactly the behaviour I would expect from bullies.

Wow. You are saying that they asked him for a keynote talk with the indent to downgrade it just to bully him?
Seriously?

>"Sometimes the only way to win, is to refuse to play".

If writing a big blog post is defined as not playing.

>When dealing with hormone-laden pre-teens like Rust

Do you think this is polite?

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 5, 2023 5:07 UTC (Mon) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> Companies start and terminate products all the time. That's just a normal thing to do. It's not specific to Google.

No it's not specific to Google. But there is something specific to Google: doing things on a massive scale!

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/04/googles-constant-...

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 6, 2023 17:36 UTC (Tue) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] (5 responses)

Here, the childish behavior was clearly on the Rust side (read: they were behaving like schoolyard bullies), and not on the side of the insulted person.

Well, I'm not part of the Rust community and have not used that language and ecosystem once. I just observe the toxic atmosphere and the fanatiscm of that community, and that makes me want to don't touch it with a ten-feet pole.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 6, 2023 18:42 UTC (Tue) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link] (3 responses)

>they were behaving like schoolyard bullies

They were inviting him with the intent to downgrade the talk just to bully him?
What facts you you base this bold claim on?

Changing mind is maybe rude and is certainly not what they should have done, bit it's far from intentional bullying. (There is no such thing as unintentional bullying).

Bullying is a criminal offense.
Downgrading a talk is rude.

>and have not used that language and ecosystem once

I doubt it. Used Firefox or Android or Windows or ...?

>I just observe the toxic atmosphere and the fanatiscm of that community

You are overreacting a lot. Really.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 6, 2023 23:05 UTC (Tue) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] (2 responses)

> >they were behaving like schoolyard bullies

> They were inviting him with the intent to downgrade the talk just to bully him?

Of course, nobody did this as a plan. But, obviously from the reports, nobody put a minute of thought into thinking what this degration means to an accomplished expert. There was a link to a post from somebody named "JT" who resigned, who put it into words: He asked around if anybody he knows has ever experienced something like this -- and the answer was "no".

Schoolyard bullies don't plan their actions, they see something they dislike, see an opportunity, and take it. That's why they are called "bullies", they don't act strategically, but on an emotional whim.

> > and have not used that language and ecosystem once

> I doubt it. Used Firefox or Android or Windows or ...?

This comment makes me question your willingness for discussion. IMNSHO it was obvious that I wrote this as a software developer. I wanted to make clear that I'm not involved in software development with Rust. I.e., that I'm impartial to the internal struggle in that project. I'm solely active in the TeX community -- and I'm proud that we don't have as much quarrels as is reported here.

That makes me ask -- just for interest: What is your involvement?
Are you active in the Rust Project?
Were you active in that conference?
Do you have connections to the people that we talk about -- whom I don't know?

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 7, 2023 6:52 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> > > and have not used that language and ecosystem once

> > I doubt it. Used Firefox or Android or Windows or ...?

*I* haven't used it. Software I use (I use all three you mention) obviously do.

> That makes me ask -- just for interest: What is your involvement?
> Are you active in the Rust Project?
> Were you active in that conference?
> Do you have connections to the people that we talk about -- whom I don't know?

I have my own projects to be involved in (md-raid, ScarletDME). That said, I read the back-story, which is a bit horrific. That, and posters here saying "Oh it's nothing" and I found it hard to keep out. "Don't feed the trolls" and all that. I think there's a couple of posters here who know how to press my buttons ...

Cheers,
Wol

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 7, 2023 19:38 UTC (Wed) by mb (subscriber, #50428) [Link]

I'm not posting anonymously here.
It's easy to find out who I am and what I am involved in.
So if you really mean it, go for it.

I just don't think it matters.

> This comment makes me question your willingness for discussion.

I have a different opinion than you have and all that is left is a personal attack from your side.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 6, 2023 22:47 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

I like the sound of Rust the language, I really do. And it seems (as always) the people doing the work are simply putting their heads down and getting on with it.

It's the others that seem rather disfunctional. At the end of the day, they need to grow up and get some sort of formal structure in place (and not do what another organisation I was involved with did - they got what I charitably described as "organisational Alzheimers" :-)

Cheers,
Wol

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 4, 2023 1:48 UTC (Sun) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> But this is not the end of the world.

Maya Angelou said something that is quite relevant:

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

...This wasn't the first time.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 3, 2023 22:12 UTC (Sat) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (3 responses)

Reading JeanHayd's post closely, I think his attitude is basically "Rust should be better than this, and if I don't go public with it, then they won't improve." Characterizing that as "hysteric" feels quite unfair to me.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 11, 2023 1:15 UTC (Sun) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (2 responses)

It's certainly not hysterical but the consequences seem disproportionate.

We've become deaf due to the necessity to ignore all the people from all sides constantly whining with a megaphone on Twitter. But when you complain with a megaphone about people who (for a change) do care about their mistakes then you get mega consequences.

> "... and if I don't go public with it, then they won't improve."

This is the key, unsubstantiated claim.

Loudly but _privately_ complaining to the Rust leadership about the "opaque governance" could have resulted in more productive changes. _Private_ discussions is how millions of people routinely discuss mistakes and conflicts every day. The megaphone is for when all private channels have all failed. Please correct me but I haven't seen these private discussions mentioned anywhere.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 11, 2023 1:56 UTC (Sun) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> Please correct me but I haven't seen these private discussions mentioned anywhere.

I believe the original post referenced multiple attempts to have the situation explained (if not resolved) privately. Attempts that clearly failed.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 11, 2023 5:27 UTC (Sun) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> I believe the original post referenced multiple attempts to have the situation explained (if not resolved) privately.

Which original post? I don't see that mentioned at https://thephd.dev/i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 7, 2023 11:46 UTC (Wed) by milesrout (subscriber, #126894) [Link] (4 responses)

Quite recently a friend of mine was invited to be a groomsman at a wedding. At the rehearsal he was the best man. It was not suggested to him that it would be any different on the day. Come wedding day, he was informed that someone else was best man.

This is basically the scenario you are describing. And guess what? He played his role with good grace because he's a nice guy.

"ThePHD.dev", on the other hand, is one of the biggest drama queens on the internet and has demonstrated through all of this to all sensible people that working with him is to be avoided if you want to live a calm and simple life. Let's remember that this is the same guy that has written blog posts boasting about how he has infiltrated the C standards committee in an attempt to destroy the C programming language from the inside because he hates C.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 7, 2023 12:59 UTC (Wed) by rschroev (subscriber, #4164) [Link]

When I go to a wedding of friends of mine, I don't care much about what function I'm going to be in. I'm happy to help out in any way, or be just a guest, doesn't really matter. I'm happy to be there.

When I'm invited to some event I wasn't planning to attend, only because the organizers really want me to do the keynote, that's a different story. Doing the keynote is the only reason for going. If I'm then told not to do the keynote, then that reason doesn't exist anymore. I probably wouldn't attend either (I wouldn't be pissed either; just not going). Offering me a talk wouldn't help: I had never intended to give a talk at that event.

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 7, 2023 13:33 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Quite recently a friend of mine was invited to be a groomsman at a wedding. At the rehearsal he was the best man. It was not suggested to him that it would be any different on the day. Come wedding day, he was informed that someone else was best man.

...Did he (and his colleagues) spend a year working on wedding tasks before he was asked to be the best man?

Meanwhile, to carry your analogy forward to what actually happened; he was asked to be the best man by the groom, re-arranged his plans to make that possible, and then at the last minute the bride demanded he be replaced with someone else. At minimum, that _strongly_ implies that he was not actually as welcome at the wedding as he was lead to think.

(And for the record, I've been put in this situation. Suffice it to say she is now my ex-wife)

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 7, 2023 13:50 UTC (Wed) by mikebenden (guest, #74702) [Link] (1 responses)

> Let's remember that this is the same guy that has written blog posts boasting
> about how he has infiltrated the C standards committee in an attempt to destroy
> the C programming language from the inside because he hates C.

While so far all other replies to your comment focused exclusively on rebuttals to your "best-man-at-wedding" analogy, and didn't touch this part of your post with a 10-foot pole, I think this is the actually useful information. Do you happen to have a link to one of said blog posts? That would be even more interesting!

A post on the RustConf keynote fiasco

Posted Jun 7, 2023 17:04 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

I'm not sure how an editor of the C standard could be considered to "hate C". Parts of it, sure. But I don't think such a position (at least based on my C++ ISO experience) is one of supreme power or financially rewarding to overshadow any such "hate". It could be that some "I'm going to make C better even if it means burning it all down to build it better" kind of language got taken the wrong way. But that approach also seems a far cry from getting anywhere with ISO voting rules (as I'm sure JeanHeyd is well aware).