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Distributions quotes of the week

The X.org display server is deprecated, and will be removed in a future major RHEL release. The default desktop session is now the Wayland session in most cases.

The X11 protocol remains fully supported using the XWayland back end. As a result, applications that require X11 can run in the Wayland session.

Red Hat is working on resolving the remaining problems and gaps in the Wayland session.

Red Hat

If you look at openSUSE's own statistics, there is absolutely no evidence that more users can lead to more contributors.

Our highest contribution numbers [were] when we had the least users. All of our periods of user growth have seen either a decline or stagnation in our contributor numbers.

Looking outside of our little bubble, this is not an isolated phenomenon.

Fundamentally, Projects that work hard to appeal to contributors, gain contributors.

Richard Brown

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X.org display server is deprecated

Posted May 12, 2023 9:39 UTC (Fri) by geert (subscriber, #98403) [Link]

> Red Hat is working on resolving the remaining problems and gaps in the Wayland session.

Thanks a lot, I am looking forward to see these improvements trickle down through the ecosystem!

After coping for +100 days with the user experience regressions in Xwayland[1] (none of the bugs reported to Ubuntu (I know, not Red Hat) seems to have been fixed), I switched back to Xorg.
After 3 weeks, I don't regret switching back.

[1] https://lwn.net/Articles/910027/

Distributions quotes of the week

Posted May 12, 2023 10:20 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

Eh, removing X.org is not a great idea, given there are still significant useability regressions in Xwayland.

Distributions quotes of the week

Posted May 28, 2023 12:15 UTC (Sun) by Henning (subscriber, #37195) [Link]

Considering RHEL9 will be supported until around 2032 and we assume the next RHEL-version (without X.org) may come in 2025 with support until 2035 I think it is a sound decision.
X.org will need to be maintained (at least minimally) until around 2030 for current enterprise distros, and unless someone is prepared to keep maintaining it after that, you should drop it from any coming distro with long term support.

Distributions quotes of the week

Posted May 18, 2023 9:10 UTC (Thu) by callegar (guest, #16148) [Link] (4 responses)

Maybe this is seen as a way to push so that the Wayland/XWayland issues are finally fixed. Many bugs seen using a Wayland session may ultimately be in the toolkits, the desktop environments and the application themselves, so forcing everything to Wayland may also make urgent the fixing. However, I expect it to be a big pain for the users, something bringing back memories of the KDE 3->4 transition, when distros stopped shipping KDE 3 forcing everyone on 4 "when it was obviously too early for the switch".

As of today I am still personally better served by Xorg. In my usage case there is really nothing "visible" that is so broken in Xorg to make it hard to use in the day to day experience (yes, I know about the invisible, security, etc), while there are many little and larger broken things that make using Wayland not impossible but certainly more painful, so the choice is obvious. I may be wrong, but I expect this to be the same for all those users not having special needs that make them crash against insurmountable problems of Xorg and I expect them to be still the majority. Maybe the problem is that, notwithstanding the criticism, Xorg still works too well ;-).

Again I may be wrong, but I get the impression that at least some of the real issues (as well as perception problems) of Wayland are, at least to some extent, self inflicted. From the beginning, Wayland gave the impression of delimiting a surface for the project much smaller than what X11 was covering and not proposing "one obvious way" to do all the rest that was needed (to say it in a Pythonic way). So, at least at the beginning, one either remained: with no way at all to do something; with one way of doing something reimplemented in 10 different ways in different projects, often in incomplete, incompatible ways; with things that had to be done relying on "pieces" of X11; with things abandoned altogether.

As a few examples, think:
- of the management of a session (application prompting to save work before logout, restoring of applications on login (gnome does it in one way, KDE does it only for X11 applications, some other DE, boh?);
- of the way to access individual applications remotely (until not long ago, the only reliable thing was to start apps in X11 mode and use the X11 wire protocol);
- of deciding whether to start an app in X11 or Wayland mode (every toolkit has its own different environment variable for this... or has this changed recently?)
- of deciding when more computer power is needed and the GPU frequency should be scaled up (which seems to be the reason for very weak performance on low end CPU/GPU combos, in comparison to Xorg)
just to mention a few things...

Distributions quotes of the week

Posted Jun 2, 2023 9:58 UTC (Fri) by daenzer (subscriber, #7050) [Link] (3 responses)

> - of deciding when more computer power is needed and the GPU frequency should be scaled up

Neither Wayland nor X are directly involved in that, it's mainly down to the kernel (CPU clocks can matter just as much as GPU ones) / drivers.

> (which seems to be the reason for very weak performance on low end CPU/GPU combos, in comparison to Xorg)

Any pointers to data backing that claim? Offhand, there's no obvious reason for the same desktop environment to perform worse with Wayland than X. (In terms of anecdotes, I find GNOME Wayland snappier than with Xorg, and I've seen others say the same)

Distributions quotes of the week

Posted Jun 2, 2023 11:40 UTC (Fri) by geert (subscriber, #98403) [Link] (2 responses)

To add more anecdotal evidence: I had the impression my mouse pointer was sluggier under high (compile) load, and sometimes mouse clicks were lost, when I was running Wayland (not on a real low end CPU/GPU combo, although an "aging" i7-8700K with integrated graphics).

Distributions quotes of the week

Posted Jun 2, 2023 14:30 UTC (Fri) by daenzer (subscriber, #7050) [Link]

That's an issue of the particular Wayland compositor you were using, not an inherent problem of Wayland.

Distributions quotes of the week

Posted Jun 2, 2023 15:25 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

That COULD be the scheduler. There's so many things it could be. Is the scheduler biased towards throughput, or responsiveness? Under normal circumstances it might not make any difference, until a compile puts the system under heavy load.

My system is a complete pain-in-the-arse on login, and I *think* baloo is the culprit. I don't want the system randomly scanning my hard drives, and baloo seems worse than Mr Clippy! My drives are check-summed up the wazoo, and the last thing I want is some stupid indexer trying to optimise my system for a bunch of apps I don't even know if they exist on my system!

(dm-integrity, raid-5, no hidden disk corruption tricking raid and damaging my data.)

If I hammer my disks that's down to me - my normal working set fits fine into 32GB, but why is my DE knackering my system for 5 minutes and stopping me working ... ???

Cheers,
Wol

Distributions quotes of the week

Posted May 19, 2023 8:18 UTC (Fri) by gwg (guest, #20811) [Link] (1 responses)

Wayland doesn't support color management, and won't for the foreseeable future.

Lack of an X11 display option makes a distro a non-starter for anyone needing
accurate display color, i.e. photography, desktop publishing etc.

Distributions quotes of the week

Posted May 19, 2023 12:53 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Wayland doesn't support color management, and won't for the foreseeable future.

Wayland has supported basic "color management" for many years -- As I type this, all of my various GNOME desktops have per-display calibrations applied, all of which were generated using the GNOME tooling under Wayland.

What Wayland lacks currently is the ability of specific clients/applications to specify their working colorspace and HDR capabilities and have the compositor automagically handle everything, but that's not a regression -- X11/X.org requires individual applications to handle all of this manually anyway. and most don't.

Here is the current documentation that shows the state of affairs (including how X11 and Wayland handle color management) and what is being worked on for Wayland:

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr

They're trying very hard to make sure they get this right before they deply anything.


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