|
|
Subscribe / Log in / New account

Jumping the licensing shark

Jumping the licensing shark

Posted Mar 28, 2023 12:34 UTC (Tue) by josh (subscriber, #17465)
In reply to: Jumping the licensing shark by Wol
Parent article: Jumping the licensing shark

The US constitution says the purpose of copyright is "to promote the progress of Science and useful Arts". I don't need to justify why it should be "taken away"; there needs to be a justification for *granting* it for that long, and that justification must be in the form "here are works that wouldn't have been written and released otherwise".


to post comments

Jumping the licensing shark

Posted Mar 30, 2023 17:36 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (9 responses)

Linux is an INTERNATIONAL project, so while I think the US constitution - in this particular case - is a useful guide, YOU might not need a justification to seize other peoples' property, but *I* *DO*. I'm not a US citizen.

The other thing is, Linux is all about freedom, FAIRness, and EQUITY. Again, to me, that means *I* need a justification to seize someone else's property. We've seen the detrimental effects of "perpetual copyright" - I don't want to go there. But we've also seen the destrimental effects of The Pirates of Penzance <strikeout> New York, and I don't want to go there either!

Cheers,
Wol

Jumping the licensing shark

Posted Mar 30, 2023 17:48 UTC (Thu) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link] (8 responses)

Copyright is a privilege, not a natural right. It's granted by placing restrictions on what would otherwise be a natural activity, copying. It is emphatically *not* property, and no one has an inherent right to it. Society decides how much or how little of it is worth granting to get other things society wants.

To suggest how your position comes across to those who don't agree with you, consider if I said "you need justification for telling others they can't copy data on their own computers". (You *do* need such justification, but I didn't think it useful to phrase it that way.)

Copyright should be abolished entirely, but as a *compromise* I would settle for granting a few years. :)

Jumping the licensing shark

Posted Mar 30, 2023 21:52 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (7 responses)

> Copyright should be abolished entirely, but as a *compromise* I would settle for granting a few years. :)

I think you'd be shocked by the consequences ...

We've never had a situation before when things could be freely copied at minimal cost. Before the days of the printing press, copyists got paid good money. Once we had the press, authors got paid good money for scripts. Then we had bands and they got paid for recording sessions and stuff like that.

You've just destroyed authors, musicians, software writers, anybody's hopes of making money. Which means creatives will either have to be rich and do it for pleasure, or poor and if they're lucky get a job where somebody rich pays them. That puts music back to the 1600s, probably destroys the market for literature, ... painting and art will probably survive because artists will be able to sell originals, but basically anything that can easily be copied, won't be made.

> Copyright is a privilege, not a natural right. It's granted by placing restrictions on what would otherwise be a natural activity, copying.

Since when has it been normal - or even possible! - to copy quickly, easily, and at next to no cost? It's NATURAL for copying to be an expensive activity, not a cheap one - that's how it's been for pretty much all of recorded history. You may not be happy with "artificial scarcity" keeping prices up, but the alternative could be natural scarcity as the supply of new things to copy dries up.

Why, in the late 1800s early 1900s, were the Americans so eager to "steal" European culture? is there a lot of "turn of the century" American literature, American music? (Honest question, I don't know.) But if the culture of that time is mostly European, then it shows that the lack of protection stifles creativity.

Cheers,
Wol

Jumping the licensing shark

Posted Mar 31, 2023 8:12 UTC (Fri) by joib (subscriber, #8541) [Link] (4 responses)

> > Copyright should be abolished entirely, but as a *compromise* I would settle for granting a few years. :)

> I think you'd be shocked by the consequences ...

Maybe. But it isn't written in stone that the current scheme of "artificial scarcity" via copyright is the only way, or even the best way, to arrange things. That one cannot think of any other consequence than some kind of dystopia if the current regime is changed, belies a lack of imagination rather than a true lack of alternatives. Unfortunately we don't have alternative universes to perform experiments in, so nobody really knows for sure what the space of possible outcomes (emphasis on the plural!) are.

> It's NATURAL for copying to be an expensive activity, not a cheap one - that's how it's been for pretty much all of recorded history.

I'm genuinely curious how you can think of copying information being expensive is NATURAL. How do you define natural? Did cavemen pay royalties when they were retelling stories because that's the natural way to compensate whoever originally came up with the story?

And which is the NATURAL state of things? Before writing, disseminating information was very inefficient (telling stories by the fire?), though I guess back then there wasn't much of a money economy either so it's hard to say what the cost was. After writing was invented, when copying was very time-consuming, was that the natural state of things? Or after the printing press was invented, which dramatically reduced the cost of copying? Or the current state, where thanks to digital technologies the cost of copying has further reduced dramatically? I would claim that there is no 'natural' state, but rather the cost of copying is a function of the available technology. And further, our current copyright regime was something that was invented roughly in the age of the printing press, and worked passably in that world. There's zero evidence that it's the "optimal" for the current state of technology, or for that matter that it would have been better than what historically happened in the age before the printing press was invented.

Jumping the licensing shark

Posted Mar 31, 2023 10:25 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> > It's NATURAL for copying to be an expensive activity, not a cheap one - that's how it's been for pretty much all of recorded history.

> I'm genuinely curious how you can think of copying information being expensive is NATURAL. How do you define natural? Did cavemen pay royalties when they were retelling stories because that's the natural way to compensate whoever originally came up with the story?

Okay, to pick on this particular example, but let's separate "performance" from "copying". Telling a story by the fire is a performance. The guy may have been paid with food, with status, whatever. But the performance probably hasn't been recorded, hasn't been copied, *hasn't been memorised!*

Your bard, on the other hand, has invested a lot of time and effort training his memory to retain all this stuff. Okay, back then, their memories may have been better thanks to regular usage - what evidence we have suggests that such copying was actually pretty accurate! And that includes down the centuries!

In the past, the making of accurate, durable copies, has always involved significant investment of one sort or another. Today, we copy like kleptomaniacs, because it's so cheap (I do, too, ...).

Cheers,
Wol

Jumping the licensing shark

Posted Mar 31, 2023 11:32 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (2 responses)

The history of copyright is interesting. Least in England. Copyright was predated by a system of licensing of printing, to prevent seditious or blasphemous material being published. This ended up effectively creating a small class of monopolist publishers, with publishing regulated by their guild - the Stationers' Company. As other sections of society became increasingly disgruntled with this censorship, and this licensing law became untenable, the Stationers' Company came up with the notion that authors' should have a moral right to control the copying of their works - a right they, the publishers, would largely be the beneficiaries of. And so copyright was borne.

Interesting... ;)

Jumping the licensing shark

Posted Mar 31, 2023 14:03 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

The Statute of Queen Anne, I believe?

Cheers,
Wol

Jumping the licensing shark

Posted May 3, 2023 9:04 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

The point in my comment is to note that the "moral" argument for copyright was largely of convenience, made by a cartel as a way to argue for the reinstate of legal enforcement of their cartel powers. Not that moral really.

Jumping the licensing shark

Posted Jun 14, 2023 15:09 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

I know it's months later, but...

> You've just destroyed authors, musicians, software writers, anybody's hopes of making money.

In context (that you were proposing lifelong copyright terms, renewable for the lives of heirs, indefinitely: i.e. infinitely long copyright terms, in effect), this is ridiculous. Almost all income from almost all copyrighted works occurs in the first decade: after that it's minimal except for a very few very famous works (think LOTR or Charles Dickens or something like that). For computer software it is effectively nil -- but that won't stop corporate owners, in particular, from automatically renewing just in case and because it's the way it's always been done and because it might just possibly hurt some competitors somehow. And meanwhile you just destroyed what little remains of the public domain, while providing more or less zero incentive to authors to create new works.

In any case, why do you need an infinitely-long income stream to provide incentive? Why isn't a much shorter stream adequate? I don't know about you, but in my job I don't expect to get paid forever for work I do only once, and definitely I don't expect my heirs to ever get paid for work I did. Nor should anyone. That way lies increased concentration of unearned wealth, feudalism and the divine right of copyright holders, not a democratic society. IMHO it should be *impossible* to pass on copyrights to your heirs, not the default state. Tough luck on writers who die shortly after writing a book, but, well, it's not like they're going to be incentivized any more, they're *dead*, so that argument falls at once.

Now maybe indefinite renewal is acceptable if coupled with an exponentially-rising renewal cost, but even that runs the risk of lobbying to eliminate the cost rise while keeping the indefinite renewal. Simply banning it and limiting copyright (particularly of software) to something sane (10, 15 years, something like that) seems a lot more sensible, and a lot more in line with how people *actually* treat it (very few people think that grabbing still-in-copyright 1980s software off abandonware sites is in any way unethical, even if it's technically illegal: it's not on sale any more, you can't buy it, it's of archaeological interest).

Jumping the licensing shark

Posted Jun 14, 2023 16:02 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> I know it's months later, but...

> > You've just destroyed authors, musicians, software writers, anybody's hopes of making money.

> In context (that you were proposing lifelong copyright terms, renewable for the lives of heirs, indefinitely: i.e. infinitely long copyright terms, in effect), this is ridiculous. Almost all income from almost all copyrighted works occurs in the first decade: after that it's minimal except for a very few very famous works (think LOTR or Charles Dickens or something like that).

Except that what I was proposing is WEAKER copyright than today.

"Heirs alive at creation" - hardly "infinitely long". Given that a fair few places now have "life plus 95", it will be noticeably shorter in most cases. Especially as most people are most prolific when they are young, when they are trying to impress the females ... In a LOT of cases, it will be less than "life plus 50", and quite likely the heirs will not be able to renew because the copyright was born before they were.

And it should cost to renew copyright. Which means that many copyrights will be abandoned long before then. Which is the idea ...

Replacing copyright with trademark will also make legal copies much easier, even if it is "only for personal use" - the more copies, the more likely stuff is to survive.

Don't try to get Utopia today. One step at a time.

Cheers,
Wol


Copyright © 2025, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds