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Free software and fiduciary duty

Free software and fiduciary duty

Posted Mar 12, 2023 16:38 UTC (Sun) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183)
In reply to: Free software and fiduciary duty by nybble41
Parent article: Free software and fiduciary duty

> My concern is less about the defendants winning this particular case and more about the way this can lead to cryptoassets, and potentially other virtual "assets" such as game tokens, to become entrenched as a form of "property" despite lacking the requisite attributes (such as being rivalrous) to make that classification reasonable.

Why would this be a problem, if I may ask? Is it more a language thing? In Dutch law we use "property" only to refer to physical objects, everything else you can own is defined as "rights" (like intellectual property rights). When you buy an apartment you are not buying property, but rather a bundle of rights (like the exclusive right to live there and shared responsibility for shared spaces).

It seems to me obvious that a Bitcoin is a sort of right since it gives you access to something is exclusive that can be traded. It's not terribly useful though as it can't be used as collateral since a judge cannot take it from you without your cooperation. Is the reason you don't want it to be called "property" because of the possible confusion?

As for judges deciding what is property, that's Common Law for you.


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Free software and fiduciary duty

Posted Mar 12, 2023 18:46 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

We have the term "chattel" which I thought translated into your "property" (except it doesn't). The joys of English, "chattel" excludes property namely land and buildings, but does include rights and leases.

But I would have thought, if nobody has addressed whether bitcoin is property, then at some point a plaintiff or defendant could ask the judge to decide and say "there is no precedent, regardless of what other courts have assumed, please do the right thing". If other courts haven't ruled, the Judge is free to rule how he pleases.

Cheers,
Wol

Free software and fiduciary duty

Posted Mar 12, 2023 19:12 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Following up myself, using that definition of property, bitcoin is clearly chattel but not property :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Free software and fiduciary duty

Posted Mar 14, 2023 20:27 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (1 responses)

> It seems to me obvious that a Bitcoin is a sort of right since it gives you access to something is exclusive that can be traded.

Except it's not exclusive—that was the point of the explanation about it being non-rivalrous above—and bitcoins don't really exist either as a physical good *or* as a bundle of legal rights and obligations. What exists is one or more versions of the blockchain which say that a certain private key (identified by its public counterpart) can be used to sign a transaction which Bitcoin nodes following certain rules will recognize as valid and (probably, eventually) incorporate into future version(s) of the blockchain. Critically, they have no *obligation* to either to recognize that transaction as valid or to include it in the blockchain, even if it's properly signed. That's just a convention; the rules of a game, so to speak, in which no one is compelled to participate.

With that said, there can be rights closely related to the Bitcoin system which are not themselves bitcoins. For example if you have an account with an exchange then the exchange may have a contract with you to perform the service of signing and broadcasting a valid transaction according to the Bitcoin rules in response to your request to make a withdrawal. Alternatively, if you make a purchase with bitcoins the merchant agrees to provide you with goods or services in exchange for you signing and broadcasting such a transaction. Those contacts would classified as rights—having agreed to this exchange of goods and services (which does not include bitcoins per se, only the signed transactions) both parties have a legal obligation to uphold their end of the bargain.

Free software and fiduciary duty

Posted Mar 16, 2023 13:07 UTC (Thu) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

I don't see how the same argument doesn't apply to other fungible tokens, like shares in a privately-owned company. The shares are not numbered, the owners simply own a number of shares. The shares maybe be easy, or nearly impossible to buy/sell based on the statues of the company. Whether they afford you any rights is totally dependant on the statutes as well. Now, the valuation of the shares of private companies is a tricky business, but nobody would deny they are a form of property.

I guess at the very least they give you the right to say you own a share in the company.


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