Rewriting ancient code
Rewriting ancient code
Posted Feb 9, 2023 20:28 UTC (Thu) by lostwizard (guest, #57225)In reply to: Rewriting ancient code by abacus
Parent article: The future of Thunderbird
Posted Feb 9, 2023 20:55 UTC (Thu)
by ggiunta (guest, #30983)
[Link] (8 responses)
Technical debt? Hell yeah, any codebase decades-old is bound to have a huge amount of that. Bring on the refactoring!
UI debt? This is definitely more controversial....
For sure, the current UI is inconsistent as hell. The Calendar component is way less functional (and more ugly) than what Google manages to do in pure JS. The AddressBook looses out big time when compared to managing the data in a huge spreadsheet. The chat... I have no idea - I never used it ;-)
And, monthly releases: how can someone think it is a good idea, for a mature product? The only reason I can think of that being necessary is if A) there's a constant stream of security issues being found, or B) the devs expect to be trashing around a lot the UI and functionality. Is that what users really want?
Back on the topic of the video: for all the declarations that it contains, of love for the community and for the product, it reminds me strongly of similar situations I lived through with other OSS projects, when new UI experts and Product Managers were brought onboard who, for all their good will, were clearly less competent than the unruly/incoherent/unvisionary bunch who preceded them, but were too stubborn and proud to acknowledge it, and tanked the product hard.
Posted Feb 9, 2023 21:37 UTC (Thu)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link] (1 responses)
If nothing else, Thunderbird includes Gecko, which is constantly being updated. They would probably need to release on a regular schedule just to make sure users are getting an up to date version of that, even if they didn't have their own fairly ambitious plans for changes to the rest of the program.
Posted Feb 23, 2023 13:14 UTC (Thu)
by mrugiero (guest, #153040)
[Link]
Posted Feb 23, 2023 13:30 UTC (Thu)
by mrugiero (guest, #153040)
[Link] (5 responses)
Quite the contrary, open source geeks focus too much on tech debt and too little on making sensible UI/UX choices. In fact, your own comparison with GNOME is evidence of this: GNOME is one of the most corporate (and thus client focused, because that's what makes money) led DEs we have. It's often called a Red Hat project, even. Compare that to everything community led and see how often those change. The only real example I can think of is when KDE switched to Plasma. Otherwise, everything looks and feel more or less the same than it felt 15 years ago. Even with Wayland, most compositors are more or less clones of some existing X11 window manager rather than something completely new. Open source geeks surely like their UIs to stay the same over time.
> For sure, the current UI is inconsistent as hell. The Calendar component is way less functional (and more ugly) than what Google manages to do in pure JS. The AddressBook looses out big time when compared to managing the data in a huge spreadsheet. The chat... I have no idea - I never used it ;-)
You say this as if dumbing down is really that bad. Those clients are, apparently, _very_ _practical_. Thunderbird was always meant to be for the general user. If it allows for configuration, extensions, or whatever mods for power users to suit their needs better, then great. If it doesn't, then find something aimed for power users. But if you aim for general public, your defaults should be what a regular user would expect. And most users don't cherish their mail management experience, they mostly see it as a tool that needs to get out of the way as soon as its work is done.
> And, monthly releases: how can someone think it is a good idea, for a mature product? The only reason I can think of that being necessary is if A) there's a constant stream of security issues being found, or B) the devs expect to be trashing around a lot the UI and functionality. Is that what users really want?
People don't like waiting 6 months for a trivial but annoying bug to be fixed.
> Back on the topic of the video: for all the declarations that it contains, of love for the community and for the product, it reminds me strongly of similar situations I lived through with other OSS projects, when new UI experts and Product Managers were brought onboard who, for all their good will, were clearly less competent than the unruly/incoherent/unvisionary bunch who preceded them, but were too stubborn and proud to acknowledge it, and tanked the product hard.
Unvisionary is probably good, visionary is risky and it could end well or it could end miserably. Visionary can also be reverted if failed, tho, while unvisionary will always remain static.
Posted Feb 23, 2023 15:54 UTC (Thu)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (4 responses)
The "general user" will just use gmail (in-browser or phone app), outlook (desktop, in-browser, or phone app), and so forth.
The only ones left using something like Thunderbird are so-called "power users" and folks that started using it a decade or two ago and don't want _anything_ to change. And the needs of those two groups are nearly diametrically opposed.
Posted Feb 23, 2023 16:38 UTC (Thu)
by mrugiero (guest, #153040)
[Link] (3 responses)
Which may very well be a case of cause and consequence :^)
Posted Feb 23, 2023 16:58 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
Things like regular expression mail header parsing and filtering. I'm sure that's probably available in things like mutt and milter and esoteric :-) mail processing tools, but Turnpike was a simple, easy-to-use client with all this power lurking just below the surface. And it drew you in - you started using the simple features and thought "hey that looks nifty", and next you knew you were digging into this cool-looking power feature. Bit like WordPerfect really.
Nowadays either these features don't exist, or they're so undiscoverable nobody realises they're there until they are broken for lack of use ... :-(
Cheers,
Posted Feb 24, 2023 9:22 UTC (Fri)
by smurf (subscriber, #17840)
[Link]
until they need to switch webmail providers – and realize that half their accounts won't work anymore and can't be switched over because the confirmation email is sent to the old address.
In other words, returning control of their email back to users is a matter of education and awareness, not of whether Thunderbird is built on top of Gecko or Webkit.
Posted Feb 23, 2023 18:27 UTC (Thu)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
"common folk" won't ever use Thunderbird, because it represents a completely different paradigm to everything they've ever experienced, and there's no way to meaningfully bridge that gap without defeating the entire purpose of using it to begin with.
In other words, to appeal to the "common folk" Thunderbird would have to become yet another hosted email service, accessible via a web site (possibly with a "desktop app" aka electron wrapper for the web site) or mobile app that can only talk to the Thunderbird servers. Oh, and it would have to be completely free, because who pays for email anyway?
You might as well be saying "Bananas should make themselves to be more like oranges, so that folks who like oranges will
Posted Feb 9, 2023 22:01 UTC (Thu)
by Vipketsh (guest, #134480)
[Link] (18 responses)
A few wonderful examples to learn from: Gnome 2->3, KDE 3->4, X->Wayland (about *10 years* to start being usable).
Posted Feb 9, 2023 22:26 UTC (Thu)
by cyperpunks (subscriber, #39406)
[Link]
Indeed, and when the product finally works as it should after a decade of work, the entire thingie is seen as technical debt :-)
Posted Feb 10, 2023 12:45 UTC (Fri)
by rschroev (subscriber, #4164)
[Link]
Posted Feb 13, 2023 13:08 UTC (Mon)
by rsidd (subscriber, #2582)
[Link] (12 responses)
Posted Feb 13, 2023 13:45 UTC (Mon)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (11 responses)
It's true that Wayland is not a rewrite of X, but it is intended to replace X. As such, it needs to do a bunch of things that X currently does (though it does them in quite a different way.)
Posted Feb 13, 2023 14:49 UTC (Mon)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (10 responses)
Cheers,
Posted Feb 23, 2023 13:34 UTC (Thu)
by mrugiero (guest, #153040)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Feb 23, 2023 16:03 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (8 responses)
Can't remember where I got the information from, but I was discussing X, Wayland, and network transparency iirc, probably here on LWN! Probably from someone in Wayland.
Cheers,
Posted Feb 27, 2023 19:57 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (7 responses)
(I am not aware of an X12, FWIW. But I'm just a random nobody.)
Posted Feb 28, 2023 1:48 UTC (Tue)
by mrugiero (guest, #153040)
[Link] (6 responses)
It never got to a proper planning phase, but was just some discussion as to what a successor for X11 would require. Eventually the people involved (I think) ended up creating Wayland instead. From what I gather, the name was just to mean "what's next from X11" rather than actually an official successor.
Posted Feb 28, 2023 11:10 UTC (Tue)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Feb 28, 2023 12:12 UTC (Tue)
by jem (subscriber, #24231)
[Link] (3 responses)
I really don't recognize Wayland in that text. The first part is a list of general requirements, nothing specific to X or what Wayland was to become. The latter part is just a list of X11 limitations, like "XIDs are too small", "[X11 protocol] extension space is too small", "Strings for [X11] Atom names", and so on, none of which have any meaning for Wayland.
Posted Feb 28, 2023 14:27 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
X11 has fundamental design flaws in an insecure world, and having "designed" X12, they presumably decided they couldn't evolve X, so they took all that into account and started again.
Cheers,
Posted Feb 28, 2023 14:30 UTC (Tue)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Feb 28, 2023 14:31 UTC (Tue)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
That there exists a very early planning document in that process, a very incomplete wiki doc, that viewed the future in an X11 context, doesn't mean Wayland is not that next protocol after X11.
Posted Mar 1, 2023 20:30 UTC (Wed)
by mrugiero (guest, #153040)
[Link]
Posted Feb 19, 2023 20:24 UTC (Sun)
by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Feb 19, 2023 20:44 UTC (Sun)
by smurf (subscriber, #17840)
[Link]
However, the adage "to convert an estimate to something realistic, multiply by two and go up one order of magnitude" certainly holds true.
Posted Feb 23, 2023 13:36 UTC (Thu)
by mrugiero (guest, #153040)
[Link]
Rewriting ancient code
Any decades-old application is bound to have reams of users who internalized all its quirks and will be completely upset and unwilling to accept even the slightest change. UI is the bike-shedding topic par excellence for open-source geeks. Just ask the Firefox devs...
But email management? I think that was nailed years ago. And that's what every current user is most likely afraid of - seeing the cherished mail-management experience be dumbed down to the levels of, say, Gmail or android clients.
I guess many people around here will have got similar "gnome devs" vibes...
Rewriting ancient code
And, monthly releases: how can someone think it is a good idea, for a mature product?
Rewriting ancient code
Rewriting ancient code
>
> UI debt? This is definitely more controversial....
> Any decades-old application is bound to have reams of users who internalized all its quirks and will be completely upset and unwilling to accept even the slightest change. UI is the bike-shedding topic par excellence for open-source geeks. Just ask the Firefox devs...
Regarding users who internalized the quirks, maybe some projects are interested in actually attracting _new_ users that have higher standards than adapting themselves to software. Software is meant to serve the user, not the other way around. Only geeks and people with very specific needs (e.g. privacy conscious not trusting the proprietary alternatives with better UX) are interested in sacrificing usability to serve the whims of a decrepit email client.
Firefox didn't lose the browser wars because it changed UI, it lost way before that. It lost the browser wars because of several other factors, one of them being too static to catch up with the competition. The change was probably good except for power users, but it came too late.
> But email management? I think that was nailed years ago. And that's what every current user is most likely afraid of - seeing the cherished mail-management experience be dumbed down to the levels of, say, Gmail or android clients.
> I guess many people around here will have got similar "gnome devs" vibes...
The other qualities tend to do poor UX. I dislike PMs just as much as the next programmer, but UI experts exist for a reason. Programmers tend to write code for other programmers in the best case, and for the code itself in the worst case. That doesn't lead to something most people will want to use. Just look at most TUI MUAs and how many users (even among geeks) they have compared to Thunderbird or webmails or Outlook. Sane defaults and a little bit of usability could make it at least an order of magnitude more popular than they are today, but leets gonna leet.
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> The only ones left using something like Thunderbird are so-called "power users" and folks that started using it a decade or two ago and don't want _anything_ to change. And the needs of those two groups are nearly diametrically opposed.
If Thunderbird keeps being unsuitable for common folk, of course common folk won't use it.
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Wol
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want to eat bananas."
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Wol
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Wol
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