Leaving python-dev behind

Posted Jul 21, 2022 14:26 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46)
In reply to: Leaving python-dev behind by farnz
Parent article: Leaving python-dev behind

> No - it's more nuanced. If the old guard want the new guard to join their project, rather than starting a new one in the same space or ignoring the problem completely, then the old guard need to make their project attractive to the new guard.

"attractive" meaning something more than "something I consider important / useful and I'd be put in a hard spot should it go away" ?

Otherwise you're basically saying that oranges would be more popular with folks that like bananas if they'd only change themselves into bananas first.

Leaving python-dev behind

Posted Jul 21, 2022 15:04 UTC (Thu) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (5 responses)

Attractive meaning "the new guard want to contribute to the existing project, rather than forking it or starting a new project to solve the same problem".

If the new guard's reaction to the old project being at risk of going away is to start their own thing, that's cool - but the old guard can't both complain that people are starting new projects in "their" space, and refuse to make the existing projects attractive to new guard contributors.

It's the combination of "I will not change my project to attract your contributions, but I will expect you to contribute to my project rather than start your own or go to a competing project" that's not OK. You have a choice:

Attract the new guard to contribute to your project instead of starting their own or going elsewhere
Accept that the new guard will do their own thing even if you think it'd be better to have them contribute to your project

Both of those choices are reasonable positions, and you may even prefer it if the new guard bypass you and build their own thing instead of contributing to your thing. Just be aware that if you're saying "we are firmly oranges here", you can't then demand that people who like bananas choose oranges instead to suit your desires.

Leaving python-dev behind

Posted Jul 21, 2022 15:15 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (4 responses)

> It's the combination of "I will not change my project to attract your contributions, but I will expect you to contribute to my project rather than start your own or go to a competing project" that's not OK. You have a choice:

How often does this actually happen, though? (Especially in a way where both old/new continue on in competition instead of one rapidly dying?)

What I see all the time is "competing" projects being driven by fundamentals such as the chosen license or implementation language.

Leaving python-dev behind

Posted Jul 21, 2022 15:29 UTC (Thu) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (3 responses)

See the complaints about uutils in https://lwn.net/Articles/857599/ for an example; there was also similar complaining about busybox in the past, since it distracted people from making the GNU utilities smaller.

Or the complaints about the "new guard" working on Wayland instead of X11.

There's plenty of people willing to complain about other people's use of time :-(

Leaving python-dev behind

Posted Jul 21, 2022 15:51 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (2 responses)

> Or the complaints about the "new guard" working on Wayland instead of X11.

The quotes make me think you're aware of this…but I thought that the Wayland developers *are* (heavily overlapped with) the X11 developers.

Leaving python-dev behind

Posted Jul 21, 2022 16:25 UTC (Thu) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (1 responses)

Indeed, which makes the complaints about people choosing to work on Wayland instead of X11 even less reasonable - in many senses, Wayland is X12, dumping the bits that need a complete redesign in the modern era of GPUs, and trying to get the core right.

Leaving python-dev behind

Posted Jul 21, 2022 17:47 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Actually, Wayland is X13 - there was an X12 already :-)

But yes, for many years X11 was effectively one developer, who has thrown his weight behind Wayland, and I think X11 long ago went into security maintenance cum Wayland compatibility mode.

Cheers,
Wol