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Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

Posted Apr 7, 2022 7:30 UTC (Thu) by madhatter (subscriber, #4665)
In reply to: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr by mgedmin
Parent article: Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

And yet if I ever needed a clear illustration of why the muddled-consensus-and-agency-given-to-actors approach of Debian produces less-idiosyncratic and more-generally-usable software than the command-and-control approach of Ubuntu, comparing Debian and Ubuntu neatly provides it. I find Ubuntu awful to use by comparison.


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Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

Posted Apr 7, 2022 8:57 UTC (Thu) by atnot (subscriber, #124910) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't disagree, but those are far from the only models available.

Compare, say, the models used by Rust, Fedora and many other projects, where ownership is shared and changes are made through "change proposals" that are signed off on by a smaller group that determines if sufficient consensus exists in the community for them to go through. This means you keep the do-ocratic nature, heavy discussions and consensus building. However, crucially, once decisions have been made, they can be implemented (or reverted) by the change owners without requiring much work from anybody else. That is, imo, a much better approach than giving everyone a shotgun and their little patch of "don't tread on me" land to viciously squabble over.

Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

Posted Apr 8, 2022 10:46 UTC (Fri) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link]

… especially when the contested piece of land has a mandate to freakin' change, from Debian's equivalent of the "smaller group" you mention no less, while its owner persistently blocks that change.

So no it's not Debian that "has trouble" with merged /usr. IMHO it's the maintainer of the dpkg package who *causes* said trouble.

Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

Posted Apr 12, 2022 23:58 UTC (Tue) by ras (subscriber, #33059) [Link] (6 responses)

> And yet if I ever needed a clear illustration of why the muddled-consensus-and-agency-given-to-actors approach of Debian

Yes, watching it in action is for masochists. If you ever wanted an example of why you should not look at how the sausage is made, it's Debian. After watching it in action, I find myself surprised when it comes to a conclusion. Yet despite appearances, if you look how Debian has transformed itself over the years, it's made many fundamental changes to how it operates, and some like reproducible builds have literally set the pace for the rest of the software world to follow.

If you evaluate it by end results, then Churchill's quote summarises the situation well: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"

The technical committee is one of Debian's hidden gems. Not because it has power to force anything - as this illustrates it doesn't. All it's writings do is collect the facts, and organise the arguments. In doing so it makes it possible for the 1000 odd people in the project to assess the situation without having to wade through tons of emails, IRC chats, Debconf discussions, half or which are flamewars. The "power" of the technical committee is without it, the project would not reach an informed consensus in many cases. Instead the loudest voice would win.

It looks to be the best in class of any open source project. Sadly, it contrasts to how Debian handles other more personal conflicts. Debian like all large organisations works because on a whole, there is conflict is solved by consensus rather than one group ousting another. If it is to survive, the Debian project has to protect itself form such individuals who generate more heat than light by banning them from mailing lists, infrastructure, wiki's and even expulsions. It does that of course, but as a DD myself what happened behind the scenes to justify those decisions is so opaque (which is usually justified with "privacy" handwaving), it's impossible to feel comfortable with them. I wish we had a committee as diligent as the technical committee summarising those situations.

Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

Posted Apr 13, 2022 5:31 UTC (Wed) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link] (5 responses)

Debian unfortunately built itself around dpkg, and is being held hostage by dpkg package maintainer now. Normally the solution would be to transfer maintenance of critical package to new maintainer (or a group) and work with upstream to have the patches merged. But in this case, the upstream is the hostile maintainer himself!

How to prevent such conflicts? Banning maintainer from mailinglists achieves nothing. Don't use software you have no influence on as a critical part of distribution? Don't mix upstream and downstream maintainership? Have more active provenpackager group?

Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

Posted Apr 13, 2022 6:38 UTC (Wed) by ras (subscriber, #33059) [Link] (3 responses)

> Banning maintainer from mailinglists achieves nothing.

That sanction is used when people are behaving unpleasantly to each other. This is a technical disagreement, so it has no role here. If Debian started disciplining or banning people because they didn't agree with a technical decision the project would fall apart.

I was trying to make clear I think Debian's track record of resolving technical disagreements like this is very good. The article was written because to onlookers this resolution process it can look a little chaotic, but it's track record speaks for itself. I have no doubt this will be resolved well too.

Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

Posted Apr 13, 2022 16:01 UTC (Wed) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link] (2 responses)

Umm, IMHO this is no longer a technical argument.

The technical part has been settled, as far as Debian is concerned, by the CTTE, so the consequence for everybody else is to either go with the flow (under protest if necessary) or step aside and let somebody solve the problem who doesn't have a vested interest not to.

The fact that the dpkg maintainer apparently chose "none of the above" is … unfortunate. As in "Debian could do with less heated arguments, not more".

Disclaimer: I didn't peruse Debian's mailing list archives lately, so this impression might be wrong and/or outdated.

Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

Posted Apr 13, 2022 23:21 UTC (Wed) by ras (subscriber, #33059) [Link] (1 responses)

> Umm, IMHO this is no longer a technical argument.

There is another aspect to this. Someone has to do the work.

Debian is a volunteer organisation. It can't direct anyone to do something. If there is only one person offering to do something (such as maintain dpkg), then there are only two options: it's done as they want, or it doesn't happen. Someone not maintaining dpkg isn't a tenable option for Debian, obviously. So if this is the situation then there is no role for the technical committee, as there is no decision to be made.

There will be a role if the dispute becomes so heated another credible group stands up and offers to take over the maintenance of dpkg ongoing. But that's a big job, it's absolutely critical it be done well and the current maintainer has been doing it very well for a long while. So it's not surprising no one has stepped up to fill those very big shoes. Since no one has stepped up there is no role for the technical committee, yet.

But ... if goes on long enough passions will rise, and if they keep rising eventually someone credible will step up. Only then will we have the conditions where the technical committee can play a role - two people offering to do things that can't both proceed, and the project must choose which one will happen. That choice is made by the technical committee.

In other words Debian is not an autocracy. The direction the project takes isn't made at the head, by someone in power (say the technical committee, or the project leader) who then tells people to do their bidding. Debian is a do'ocracy. Progress is made by people electing to do things of their own accord, doing work that interests them. Inflection points like this, where what two people want to do conflict, are rare enough to warrant news articles such as this one.

The idea a large project with clear objectives could arise from such a chaotic system is surprising to some. I personally believe it delivers the largest Linux distro on the planet which is also among the most reliable, and it does so for the lowest cost.

Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

Posted Apr 14, 2022 6:39 UTC (Thu) by smurf (subscriber, #17840) [Link]

> There is another aspect to this. Someone has to do the work.

Somebody already did the work, or at least a reasonably-well-working PoC that could easily be the basis for a perfectly working solution to the problem IMHO, but was roundly rebuffed by the maintainer.

Stepping up to replace the current maintainer is a somewhat radical step, at least within Debian, that no wonder nobody has offered to wear that hat. It might yet come to that.

Debian still having trouble with merged /usr

Posted Apr 15, 2022 19:32 UTC (Fri) by amacater (subscriber, #790) [Link]

At one point Red Hat considered using dpkg themselves. I'm guessing you can't remember the reason we have package tools - dpkg is (almost) as old as Debian so more
than 25 years old now.


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