OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

Posted Mar 31, 2022 21:33 UTC (Thu) by HenrikH (subscriber, #31152)
In reply to: OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct by nybble41
Parent article: OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

On the other hand it lessens ambiguity since the items that _are_ on the list are non-debatable while everything "not limited to" has to be determined from case to case. If rules between peers worked as beautifully as "just don't be rude" then there wouldn't have been a need for a CoC in the first place.

OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

Posted Apr 1, 2022 4:00 UTC (Fri) by milesrout (subscriber, #126894) [Link] (9 responses)

The items on the list are frankly ludicrous. Level of experience? Should every conversation be aimed at a beginner level in order not to exclude beginners? Doesn't that effectively exclude people with a lot of experience? And personal appearance? Is one expected to tolerate people that haven't had a shower?

What's more it includes items that are clearly simple matters of personal choice: body size, education, familial status, gender expression, immigration status, level of experience, personal appearance, pregnancy, religion, socioeconomic status and veteran status.

The whole point of 'protected characteristics' is that they are things that we do not have any control over, and which (as far as we know) do not influence our abilities or merits. There is emphatically no evidence that sex or skin colour have any influence on one's abilities, and we do not control these things. So it is considered morally wrong to discriminate on these sorts of bases. The whole justification for the concept falls away when you include in the list things over which we have control (or which we control *completely*) and things that are directly relevant to merit, like level of experience and level of education.

I remember when these lists were a few items long: sex, race, skin colour, sexual orientation. They've expanded and expanded over time and are getting absurd. What next, level of intelligence? I mean come on, this list includes *genetic information*. So the intent is for OpenSUSE to be welcoming to people regardless of *any* traits with a genetic component. That includes conscientiousness, intelligence and agreeableness.

People seem to want a world in which everyone is expected to treat absolutely everyone identically regardless of his or her personal choices or personal characteristics. That's frankly stupid.

OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

Posted Apr 1, 2022 9:14 UTC (Fri) by timon (subscriber, #152974) [Link]

> items that are clearly simple matters of personal choice: body size, education, familial status, gender expression, immigration status, level of experience, personal appearance, pregnancy, religion, socioeconomic status and veteran status.

From my perspective, you are arguing in bad faith here. I am certain that these things are not "simple matters of personal choice". Or to put it in your words: The items on the list are frankly ludicrous.

OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

Posted Apr 1, 2022 14:17 UTC (Fri) by eduperez (guest, #11232) [Link] (3 responses)

> What's more it includes items that are clearly simple matters of personal choice: body size, education, familial status, gender expression, immigration status, level of experience, personal appearance, pregnancy, religion, socioeconomic status and veteran status.
>
> The whole point of 'protected characteristics' is that they are things that we do not have any control over, and which (as far as we know) do not influence our abilities or merits. There is emphatically no evidence that sex or skin colour have any influence on one's abilities, and we do not control these things. So it is considered morally wrong to discriminate on these sorts of bases. The whole justification for the concept falls away when you include in the list things over which we have control (or which we control *completely*) and things that are directly relevant to merit, like level of experience and level of education.

Would you be OK if pregnant women were banned from participating in discussions, then?
Because being pregnant is a choice, and we all know pregnant women have hormonal issues, don't they?

/s (in case it's needed)

OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

Posted Apr 1, 2022 23:21 UTC (Fri) by milesrout (subscriber, #126894) [Link] (2 responses)

Who said anything about banning anyone from participating in discussions?

But if there is some sort of event that, say, involves the consumption of alcohol (like a Linux Users Group meeting held in a pub), there will be people that claim that this 'excludes pregnant women' and 'excludes muslims' and 'excludes people who don't want to be around alcohol'. And yes, it does, in a way. So what? If you choose to subscribe to an ideology that forbids something many people enjoy, that's a choice you make. If you choose to become pregnant and can't drink alcohol, that's your choice. If you choose to abstain, that's your choice. You aren't being excluded, you exclude yourself.

OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

Posted Apr 4, 2022 7:25 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (1 responses)

So what? If you choose to subscribe to an ideology that forbids something many people enjoy, that's a choice you make. If you choose to become pregnant and can't drink alcohol, that's your choice. If you choose to abstain, that's your choice. You aren't being excluded, you exclude yourself.

Leaving aside the obvious issue that for some women pregnancy isn't an active choice, the last time I checked (which admittedly is some time ago) even in a pub it wasn't mandatory to consume alcohol. Presumably letting the non-drinkers in a group dictate that the rest mustn't drink around them is exactly as bad, from a CoC POV, as lettings the drinkers dictate that the rest must. But a reasonable CoC should not try to control what people have in their glasses in the first place.

OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

Posted Apr 4, 2022 18:00 UTC (Mon) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> Presumably letting the non-drinkers in a group dictate that the rest mustn't drink around them is exactly as bad, from a CoC POV, as lettings the drinkers dictate that the rest must.

No, the latter is much worse. The drinkers can always drink their preferred alcoholic beverages some other time, but the non-drinkers can't just hold off on *not drinking* for a while. Forbidding alcoholic beverages during an event is a commonplace requirement, if only to avoid dealing with the aftermath of over-consumption, while requiring all participants to drink alcohol really would be exclusionary.

Also, while one can in principle always choose not to drink even when the venue for the gathering is a customary drinking establishment such as a pub, some (such as recovering alcoholics) would reasonably consider that an unnecessarily hostile environment. It's fine if everyone interested in participating consents, but if not then there are other, more inclusive, options.

OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

Posted Apr 1, 2022 17:21 UTC (Fri) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (2 responses)

> Should every conversation be aimed at a beginner level in order not to exclude beginners? Doesn't that effectively exclude people with a lot of experience?

No. But if a beginner asks a "basic" question, you should perhaps answer it rather than brushing them off. Such an answer might consist of "go read the documentation" - but it should also contain a link to the specific document which answers their question. In some cases, you might find that such a document does not, in fact, exist.

At my job (Google), we have found that beginners typically do not ask enough questions, specifically because they think they should "look it up" first. This doesn't work very well, both because a significant portion of our documentation is inadequate or outdated, and because our systems are so large and complicated that it's difficult to know where to start. We have to actively encourage them to ask more questions, or even proactively ask questions on their behalf (when we know someone just used an unfamiliar term in their presence). I'm not going to claim that the internet definitely trained newcomers to behave this way... but it's a possibility that I'm seriously entertaining.

> People seem to want a world in which everyone is expected to treat absolutely everyone identically regardless of his or her personal choices or personal characteristics. That's frankly stupid.

The CoC does not actually say you have to treat everyone the same, merely that you should strive to give everyone a "positive experience." Indeed, failing to recognize that some people have unique life circumstances and need to be treated differently could itself be a violation of the CoC.

OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

Posted Apr 5, 2022 12:11 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

> > People seem to want a world in which everyone is expected to treat absolutely everyone identically regardless of his or her personal choices or personal characteristics. That's frankly stupid.

> The CoC does not actually say you have to treat everyone the same, merely that you should strive to give everyone a "positive experience." Indeed, failing to recognize that some people have unique life circumstances and need to be treated differently could itself be a violation of the CoC.

I've just had my review at work. My boss specifically called out my ability to talk to people at THEIR level. That's actually a very difficult skill to learn ... (I think I've had too much experience of people NOT speaking to me at my level, that it's rubbed my nose in it pretty hard ...)

Cheers,
Wol

OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

Posted Apr 11, 2022 21:52 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

That's a real skill, and a valuable skill, and one I lost long ago (if I ever had it). I wish I could get it back again...

OpenSUSE adopts a new code of conduct

Posted Apr 1, 2022 20:59 UTC (Fri) by HenrikH (subscriber, #31152) [Link]

Even if we would accept your list of things as being matters of personal choice I still fail to see your argument for why people partaking in personal choices should not be allowed to have a "positive experience" within the openSUSE community.

Did you actually read the CoC that you are so upset about or is this just a standard SIC outrage?