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Three candidates vying for Debian project leader

Three candidates vying for Debian project leader

Posted Mar 24, 2022 10:19 UTC (Thu) by guillemj (subscriber, #49706)
In reply to: Three candidates vying for Debian project leader by tlamp
Parent article: Three candidates vying for Debian project leader

Rather off-topic thread in here, but oh well:

dpkg does not show any NEWS entry, just a warning on upgrade, that TBH I expect not many users to see anyway between the upgrade noise or from a GUI frontend, but the alternative of adding it into something like «dpkg --audit» was not acceptable as that is not supposed to have knowledge about specific pathnames. The way merged-/usr has been pushed into Debian, by its proponents, has been knowingly that it was breaking dpkg (as it does it behind its back in a hackish way), with promises that it could still be reverted before the previous previous release, then ignoring or downplaying that breakage.

The dpkg FAQ covers what can happen, I suppose I'll need to add explicit step-by-step reproducers for people to check, for every and each point, as I've already seen the FUD card played before…

The intention of the warning is to let users know what they've got, they can revert or keep it if they deem the risk to be fine, after all the Debian Social Contract mentions that "we will not hide problems", etc. And I'm afraid, unlike what some people might think, a ctte decision does not magically make code stop breaking after they have decreed so.

I'm really extremely exhausted about this topic, so I'll try this to be the last I mention here.


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Three candidates vying for Debian project leader

Posted Mar 24, 2022 10:44 UTC (Thu) by mbiebl (subscriber, #41876) [Link] (2 responses)

Yeah, your destructive and uncooperative behaviour is really exhaustive.

Three candidates vying for Debian project leader

Posted Mar 24, 2022 15:15 UTC (Thu) by anarcat (subscriber, #66354) [Link] (1 responses)

Oh dear. This escalated quickly. :)

Even if you disagree with guillemj here, maybe such a critic is a little unhelpful here?

Could we at least tone it down here? I understand we do a lot of this inside Debian mailing lists, but we're in public here, let's keep it civil please.

Three candidates vying for Debian project leader

Posted Mar 24, 2022 19:10 UTC (Thu) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

> I understand we do a lot of this inside Debian mailing lists, but we're in public here

Yes, we're in public here, much like the dpkg message was in public and shown to users, and is already causing support concerns by users who are confused why Debian seems to be self-contradictory.

It's entirely appropriate to call out a public action in public.

Three candidates vying for Debian project leader

Posted Mar 24, 2022 12:16 UTC (Thu) by bluca (subscriber, #118303) [Link]

There is no actual breakage. Apart from a few minor issues that were fixed long ago, everything else is purely theoretical constructions that nobody has ever seen outside of manually-crafted examples in the 3 years this has been the default for new Debian and Ubuntu installations across multiple major releases, and the year or so it has been forcefully enabled for all Ubuntu installations (old and new) starting with 21.10, plus all the manual switches (plus all the other distros that are doing the exact same thing).

The reality is that you personally don't like the change. Which is cool. And it appears you are using your position to try to block it and retroactively justify it using old dpkg bugs, giving yourself a veto over the technical committee. Which is not cool. I for one am happy to defend your constitution-given right not be forced into doing work you don't want to do (including giving support). Detecting and including as metadata in the bug report collecting tool (so that you can refuse support) would have been one thing, but this latest escalation with user-visible prompt on installation/upgrade goes way, way beyond that.

Three candidates vying for Debian project leader

Posted Mar 24, 2022 15:05 UTC (Thu) by foom (subscriber, #14868) [Link]

I don't really know about the specifics of what's going on here, so the following is general advice based on what I can see at a superficial glance --

It is really tough to have a technical disagreement with others on your team, and then to have a decision made to go with the option you strongly disfavor. I sympathize. I think this sort of situation likely happens to everyone at some point in their career.

It is certainly tempting to become a roadblock and prevent everyone else from continuing to make their obviously-wrong choice -- hoping that they'll see the error of their ways and ultimately come to agree with you. But, while tempting, being a roadblock is not a good choice. Continuing to fight once the decision has been made does not tend to have any good outcomes.

As you say, it is personally frustrating and exhausting to keep fighting, and, ultimately, it is likely to be destructive to the team/project you care so much about. Either you become burnt out from fighting and leave, or the inability to get anything done makes everyone else go away, or (at least in a non-volunteer org) you end up getting pushed off the project or fired. In all cases, this is a very negative outcome, and probably is disrupting WAY MORE than just the one issue under disagreement.

And what is important to realize is that it's not necessary. You don't need to keep fighting the fight. It's OK to sometimes lose an argument. Even if you are CORRECT in an absolute sense, it's still OK that your option was not chosen -- because it's OK for a project to sometimes make an incorrect choice. Think of the greater good: the continued health of the team/community is ultimately more important than getting your way on a technical choice. Making one sub-optimal technical choice is almost never a disaster, but breaking a team can be.

Ideally, you can "agree to disagree", but fully commit to implementing the chosen solution, doing as much as you possibly can to help the team make the solution the best it possibly CAN be under the constraints given -- even if you continue to believe your preferred option could have been even better.


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