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Quotes of the week

Quotes of the week

Posted Mar 17, 2022 13:00 UTC (Thu) by mgedmin (subscriber, #34497)
Parent article: Quotes of the week

> It's like in Africa when you get bitten by a snake they rub cow dung into the wound.

Sounds like a made-up racist stereotype. Was it worth to elevate it to a QOTW?


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Quotes of the week

Posted Mar 17, 2022 13:18 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

> Sounds like a made-up racist stereotype. Was it worth to elevate it to a QOTW?

It is certainly not made up. It happens quite often and more than just in Africa. You can even find academic studies on it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3926357/

Note: Images can be disturbing.

Stereotype

Posted Mar 17, 2022 13:42 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (6 responses)

I picked this quote partly because I know that the developer being quoted lives in Africa and, presumably, is not speaking from complete ignorance.

Stereotype

Posted Mar 17, 2022 15:30 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (4 responses)

Plus it's quite possible that the voodoo *ACTUALLY WORKS*.

I'm not saying it does - just that modern (and not so modern) medicine has this nasty habit of poo-pooing anything it doesn't understand.

Case in point, people always used to wrap spider-webs round a wound. Modern Medicine said "oh what silly people ..." - then science discovered that cobwebs are a relatively large source of penicillin ... (yeah, nowhere as good as a modern pill, but before pills it was probably one of the best sources ...)

Cheers,
Wol

Stereotype

Posted Mar 17, 2022 17:05 UTC (Thu) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (3 responses)

I'm not saying it does - just that modern (and not so modern) medicine has this nasty habit of poo-pooing anything it doesn't understand.

Modern medicine has no problem with things it doesn't understand as long as these things are of proven efficacy. Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) was discovered in 1897 but it took us until the 1960s to figure out exactly what it does to one's body – by which time it had been a very successful pharmaceutical indeed for the best part of a century.

There are loads of “medical” interventions that have been studied and found not to work at all (such as homeopathy, acupuncture, …). These can obviously be poo-poo'ed with impunity. But OTOH, if homeopathy had actually been found to “work” in controlled trials even though it flies into the face of everything we know about chemistry and physics, that would just mean a bunch of Ph.D theses and Nobel prizes for chemistry and physics researchers as they're figuring out why, while the rest of us would happily be using homeopathic remedies against all our ills in the meantime.

Then of course there are lots of traditional treatments involving, e.g., herbs that do turn out to work under controlled conditions, and over time these tend to find their way into the medical repertoire. Aspirin, for example, is, after all, based on folk remedies involving plants or parts of plants rich in salicylate such as willow bark. Therefore it isn't the case that “modern medicine rejects stuff it doesn't understand” – we're happy to do the work to understand stuff but first of all we're interested in whether the stuff is any good!

Stereotype

Posted Mar 18, 2022 8:15 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

> > I'm not saying it does - just that modern (and not so modern) medicine has this nasty habit of poo-pooing anything it doesn't understand.

> Modern medicine has no problem with things it doesn't understand as long as these things are of proven efficacy. Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) was discovered in 1897 but it took us until the 1960s to figure out exactly what it does to one's body – by which time it had been a very successful pharmaceutical indeed for the best part of a century.

The problem isn't actually medicine, it's human nature. Aspirin is an example of a product where voodoo medicine clearly worked, so people set out to find out *why*.

I gave cobwebs as an example of voodoo medicine where modern medicine pretty much got rid of it as an "old wives' tale". I'll throw in another couple of examples - we now use greenbottle larvae to treat wounds, modern medicine got rid of that until they suddenly realised that actually it worked quite well. "leeching", blood-letting, likewise. All *looked* *down* *on* as voodoo, until suddenly someone realised that actually, they seem to work.

And actually, I think you'll find that Aspirin is the unusual one - because it was used in Western voodoo, and medics grew up with it, they accepted that it worked. When Western medicine moved into Africa etc, Western arrogance promptly dismissed local voodoo as, well, voodoo, and dismissed it without a second thought, without even *bothering* *to* *ask* whether or not it worked.

In actual fact, the original post stank to me of exactly that arrogance. That's why I took the bait ...

Cheers,
Wol

Stereotype

Posted Mar 18, 2022 10:01 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

"Bloodletting works sometimes" is not any kind of vindication of the historical procedure, though; the historical use of (and explanation of) bloodletting in medicine is entirely justified as being presented as the poster child for harmful and ineffective treatment grounded in utter nonsense.

(Hemochromatosis and severe acute polycythemia are not remotely common enough to justify the frequency with which bloodletting was prescribed, and post-operative venous congestion is a complication of clinical procedures that did not exist before the 1960s.)

Stereotype

Posted Mar 20, 2022 1:55 UTC (Sun) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

The problem isn't actually medicine, it's human nature. Aspirin is an example of a product where voodoo medicine clearly worked, so people set out to find out *why*.

Actually it was somewhat different: The willow-based folk medicines sorta-kinda worked, and earlier in the 19th century, people managed to extract the active ingredient, salicin. Later on, salicylic acid (which is what salicin is converted into in your body after you take it) was manufactured on an industrial scale and sold as a pharmaceutical, but it tasted terrible and had unpleasant side effects. Acetylsalicylic acid was researched and invented by the pharmaceutical industry (Bayer, to be exact) as a way to deal with these issues – so it was emphatically not “voodoo medicine” – and marketed very successfully, but it still took a very long time to figure out exactly why it works, even while it was being used in great quantities by satisfied customers.

All *looked* *down* *on* as voodoo, until suddenly someone realised that actually, they seem to work.

The problem with bloodletting, of course, is that in the good old days of pre-scientific medicine, it used to be pretty much the standard therapy for everything, and you could count yourself lucky if between the bloodletting and the mercury pills you didn't end up way worse than if you hadn't gone to see the doctor in the first place, so no, for the most part it didn't actually work. Homeopathy got off to a great start when it was new because it was basically a fancy way of doing nothing at all, which at the time from the patient's POV was an option that was preferable by far to being made worse or even getting killed by the barbaric therapies such as bloodletting that were the widely-accepted “standard of care”. (Remember also that the revolutionary idea of cleaning one's knife between patients hadn't got traction yet – that took until the mid-19th century, when bloodletting was already on its way out, and even then proved to be an uphill battle in the medical profession.) Nowadays we have remedies that actually make the patients get better instead of merely not killing them, and therefore homeopathy, even though not “folk medicine”, has ended up where it belongs, on the “voodoo” side of medical interventions, along with cow dung, acupuncture, and (for most diagnoses) bloodletting.

Stereotype

Posted Mar 17, 2022 21:40 UTC (Thu) by ejr (subscriber, #51652) [Link]

True, but given the current level of world-wide tension...

Quotes of the week

Posted Mar 23, 2022 2:20 UTC (Wed) by ghane (guest, #1805) [Link]

Hi, I am an Indian, but grew up in Africa, so I have some knowledge,

This is not as strange as it sounds. I do not know about snake bites, but rubbing loamy mud or clay on a wound is something I have seen both in Ghana and India. It was mostly people telling the kids to do it, so might have been a case of "doing something to calm the kid", but the practise was common in both areas.

When I read the quote, my first impression was that he was talking about India, where some aspects of cow dung are legendary. As in actual legends, where it's (proper) use stopped an invasion, a hurricane, saved someone whose head had been cut off (OK, I made the last one up).

--
Sanjeev, whose nickname in college, when I arrived from Ghana, was Ghané, which has stuck for four decades.


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