Firefox 98 released

Posted Mar 10, 2022 8:39 UTC (Thu) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582)
In reply to: Firefox 98 released by rahulsundaram
Parent article: Firefox 98 released

Here's the difference: there was no free Unix in 1991. 386BSD came out in 1992, NetBSD in 1993, by that time Linux already had significant mindshare; and the BSDs were further hamstrung by the AT&T lawsuit as well as their own infighting. Linux is actually a great example of how a free but (at the time) technically inferior alternative can be preferable to a horrendously expensive proprietary system. And the BSDs are examples of why you can't compete by just being "the same but better". OpenBSD distinguished itself with its focus on security; but that wasn't really enough.

Firefox is competing with free-beer Chrome and free-speech Chromium. Many Firefox users, including me, use it because we like its UI better, and we put up with minor incompatibilities. If the UI is a clone of Chrome, I may as well use Chrome.

Firefox 98 released

Posted Mar 10, 2022 10:27 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (6 responses)

> Here's the difference: there was no free Unix in 1991

So imitation can be a competitive strategy depending on context. It is so wildly successful that it is used repeatedly.

> And the BSDs are examples of why you can't compete by just being "the same but better. OpenBSD distinguished itself with its focus on security; but that wasn't really enough."

Let's not kid ourselves, the lawsuit was far the major reason. If not, you will have to find an explanation of why FreeBSD didn't succeed.

> If the UI is a clone of Chrome, I may as well use Chrome.

Two things a) It isn't a clone 2) If UI is the only reason holding back, you might as well as switch and move on.

Firefox 98 released

Posted Mar 10, 2022 13:35 UTC (Thu) by rschroev (subscriber, #4164) [Link] (3 responses)

Yes, the lawsuit was the major reason (or at least a very important) for the success of Linux: the practical consequence of the lawsuit was that there was no free Unix in 1991, as rsidd said. You make it sound like the lawsuit is an argument against rsidd's reasoning, but as I understand it it's rather an argument in favor.

The lack of a free Unix allowed Linux to succeed, and the success of Linux made it difficult for other free Unix-y systems to flourish. The BSD's tried, after the lawsuit was over, but by then the segment of free unix-y systems was already filled.

Firefox 98 released

Posted Mar 10, 2022 13:52 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (2 responses)

> You make it sound like the lawsuit is an argument against rsidd's reasoning, but as I understand it it's rather an argument in favor.

What I don't buy his notion that "BSDs are examples of why you can't compete by just being "the same but better"

Firefox 98 released

Posted Mar 10, 2022 14:00 UTC (Thu) by rschroev (subscriber, #4164) [Link] (1 responses)

Well, the BSDs *are* "the same but (arguably) better" than Linux, and they couldn't compete. So I can only conclude they are a very good example.

Linux on the other hand was also more or less the same as the existing Unixes, but it was free while the others weren't and that was enough of an advantage for it to succeed.

Firefox 98 released

Posted Mar 10, 2022 14:07 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

> Well, the BSDs *are* "the same but (arguably) better" than Linux, and they couldn't compete. So I can only conclude they are a very good example.

I can look at Linux and say Linux is the same but better (part of the better is the licensing aspect - GPL (not just any permissive license) but not limited to that, plenty of other differences including the model of development) than Unix, so it serves a great counter example. So I conclude that they are a very good counter example. See my point? That's the problem with oversimplifying things and say imitating something isn't a competitive strategy.

Firefox 98 released

Posted Mar 11, 2022 1:57 UTC (Fri) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (1 responses)

Why didn't FreeBSD succeed? It's complicated but I would give several reasons (I used FreeBSD for a while in late 1990s/early 2000s on my laptop and work desktop).

1. As a desktop OS it was simply inferior to Linux, in terms of hardware support and also stability. It had a bug for years where you could panic the system by pulling out a mounted USB drive (or just jiggling it accidentally). Such bugs were simply not priorities for FreeBSD folks. On the server side with high-end hardware, FreeBSD is still a good choice.

2. The online community tended to be a bit hostile to new users, especially those who had Linux experience ("eww stop the linuxisms") which probably limited their developer pool. They also fetishized "real Unix" despite the GNU versions of many tools being much better/nicer/more user-friendly.

3. The fragmentation with NetBSD, OpenBSD, and later Dragonfly BSD (a direct result of FreeBSD's alienation of one of their most brilliant developers, Matt Dillon)

4. I think the Linux funnel-type model, where patches get piped via subsystem maintainers upstream eventually to a single point (Linus), has proved to actually be better than the FreeBSD collaborative model where dozens or hundreds have "commit bits" and can contribute directly. This resulted in less, not more, thorough vetting and inferior quality for FreeBSD. The recent FreeBSD Wireguard fiasco was evidence of it.

All that said, if there had been a free BSD system in 1991, Linux would not have happened, and if it had happened, it would not have gained the rapid popularity that it did.

Firefox 98 released

Posted Mar 11, 2022 10:33 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

> All that said, if there had been a free BSD system in 1991, Linux would not have happened, and if it had happened, it would not have gained the rapid popularity that it did.

Maybe. As I have noted before and as you have adequately illustrated yourself, there is a lot of factors involved so if any or combination of them would have made enough of a difference to outpace is hard to say. I will leave it at that.