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Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

The GTK-based Anaconda installer has long been used to set up Fedora, CentOS, and RHEL systems. This Fedora Community Blog entry describes some significant changes that will appear in a future version of Anaconda:

We will rewrite the new UI as a web browser-based UI using existing Cockpit technology. We are taking this approach because Cockpit is a mature solution with great support for the backend (Anaconda DBus). The Cockpit team is also providing us with great support and they have significant knowledge which we could use. We thank them for helping us a lot with the prototype and creating a foundation for the future development.


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Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 11, 2022 17:07 UTC (Tue) by oldtomas (guest, #72579) [Link] (6 responses)

Gah.

Back in the 1990ies I was one of those proposing to use browsers as the "one GUI for all".

These days I do hope that there be one or two browser-free rocky islands out there where I can hide while I'm still around. Which, luckily, won't be for very long.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 11, 2022 19:01 UTC (Tue) by geert (subscriber, #98403) [Link] (2 responses)

When I first tried KDE (in 1997 or 1998), I was amazed by discovering the paths in the file browser were URL-based: you could open local files, remote files, and web pages, all in the file browser!

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 12, 2022 3:45 UTC (Wed) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]

KDE 1.x was a marvel.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 16:05 UTC (Thu) by mgedmin (subscriber, #34497) [Link]

Today's most popular web browser (Chrome) is a descendant of KDE's file browser (Konqueror's HTML rendering engine KHTML begat WebKit, which was forked into Chrome's current Blink engine).

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 5:38 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (2 responses)

Reminds me of this video: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-de...

TL;DW: It's a semi-comedic sci-fi/alt-future video essay describing the role of Javascript (whose pronunciation has apparently changed to "Yavascript" for some reason) as the new assembly language, in a brave new world where the DOM lives in the kernel (DOM = document object model - the data model used by modern web browsers in the real world to describe an HTML page together with its associated styles and scripts) and userspace lives in the Javascript VM (C stuff compiled via asm.js, non-C stuff transpiled directly into pure Javascript). However, a lack of foresight causes the speech to misidentify the calamity that began in 2020 as a war rather than a pandemic.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 6:24 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

> "Yavascript" for some reason

This is a pronunciation used in Russia (and some other countries), because that's how the name of the Java Island is pronounced.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 7:46 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

He slips up and starts to say "Javascript" (with a hard J) once or twice, so I'm fairly certain this is part of the fiction and not an accent or something. I suspect it has something to do with the supposed "exclusion zone" (displayed with a radiation symbol) around the Bay Area.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 11, 2022 18:25 UTC (Tue) by mss (subscriber, #138799) [Link] (13 responses)

Looks like now even a distro installer will run a copy of Chromium (or at least WebKit).

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 11, 2022 18:45 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (10 responses)

I imagine it will be WebKit or Firefox. But it also means that I can hook up remotely with a laptop instead of dragging in a monitor and keyboard to an otherwise headless machine.

Of course, if it's "fancy" enough and w3m works, then even ssh can be used to handle a Fedora install :) .

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 11, 2022 20:41 UTC (Tue) by bartoc (guest, #124262) [Link] (5 responses)

You could kind of do this with the GDK broadway backend, but it was weird. I really like cockpit and agree that that's probably one goal (and it's a good one).

It is unfortunate that a browser will be required, since even firefox (let alone chrome) is developed less out in the open than GTK.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 11, 2022 21:15 UTC (Tue) by dtlin (subscriber, #36537) [Link] (2 responses)

In principle, it should be possible to build alternative interfaces to Cockpit via websocket communication rather than embedding the full HTML/CSS/JS interface. Whether there's any interest in doing so, dunno.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 11, 2022 22:05 UTC (Tue) by adam820 (subscriber, #101353) [Link] (1 responses)

Cockpit themselves are building (have built) a desktop client that uses SSH to connect to the machine. So, theoretically you may not need a web browser to interact with it: "The server needs to have Cockpit installed, but the Cockpit webserver doesn't need to be enabled, and no extra ports need to be opened."

https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.cockpit_project.Cock...

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 11, 2022 22:15 UTC (Tue) by dtlin (subscriber, #36537) [Link]

https://github.com/cockpit-project/cockpit/blob/main/src/... uses WebKit to run all the HTML/etc, it just runs the web server itself.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 3:18 UTC (Thu) by epg (guest, #34047) [Link] (1 responses)

We had this in PGI!

"Alternatively, you can run the graphical interface even when the target machine's video hardware is not supported by the XFree86 X server; simply set the display boot parameter and run the installer on an X server elsewhere on your local network."

https://web.archive.org/web/20031218123658/http://hackers...

Pretty sure Branden Robinson came up with that idea when we were at the office way too late one night, and that we were the first to do it...

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 24, 2022 17:59 UTC (Mon) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link]

Aww, shucks. Thanks, Eric.

Reading through that manual (I think I wrote a lot of it?) brings back tons of memories.

It wasn't hard to do the remote X thing--that's one of the things the protocol was designed for.

I remember the main thing Ian Murdock having to say about our installer was that it looked like a "shoddy product". Good times.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 11, 2022 21:15 UTC (Tue) by epithumia (subscriber, #23370) [Link] (3 responses)

Anaconda has supported VNC for a very long time. I've done many thousands of Fedora installs, and RHL installs before that, without having to sit at the machines. You can also SSH in but as far as I know you can't actually use that to interact with the installer.

Perhaps soon you'll be able to connect with a browser, which I suppose is fine, but it doesn't really offer that much in the way of new capability. I imagine this is primarily an issue of simplification of code maintenance.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 12, 2022 5:36 UTC (Wed) by champtar (subscriber, #128673) [Link] (1 responses)

If I remember correctly once you are connected via ssh you can attach to the installer tmux session (tmux a).

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 2:00 UTC (Thu) by m4rtink (guest, #95458) [Link]

Oh, that's clever! While I don't think this is officially supported (or even documented) it makes sense. The Anaconda TUI runs in a tmux session, so if you can connect to that somehow, you are good to go. :)

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 1:58 UTC (Thu) by m4rtink (guest, #95458) [Link]

Current remote GUI support via VNC has several serious drawbacks:

- rendering happens on the machine, so slower machines (cheap ARM SBCs, etc.) might struggle
- all the graphical deps need to be on the image, making the image larger
- the rendered bitmaps are then transferred over network, which is not very efficient
- VNC traffic is not encrypted and VNC has a low maximum password leangth (!)
- lastly, you need a VNC client installed, while almost anyone will likely have a browser

In comparison a modern remote Web UI renders on client, transfers very little and all data goes over HTTPS.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 1:53 UTC (Thu) by m4rtink (guest, #95458) [Link]

We plan to use cockpit-desktop to run the Web UI locally:

https://cockpit-project.org/guide/latest/cockpit-desktop.1

This works very well so far and IMHO already quite well used and tested.

Its Python/GTK wrapper over Webkit, so it actually does not drag in any extra stuff on the installation image as all three are already present.

And of course if you wanted a really small image, you can make a headless one and still have a nice remote GUI support. :)

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 23:46 UTC (Thu) by gerdesj (subscriber, #5446) [Link]

"Looks like now even a distro installer will run a copy of Chromium (or at least WebKit)."

All the installers I use in anger are console based. Yes, I have seen the pretty ones but I can't be arsed with them in general. Linux (and of course the BSDs etc) lends itself to a very simple install model: partition the disc and slap on enough code to get an interface up and running that can be used to get more stuff as needed.

I want my servers to be minimal and my desktops to be maximal.

Linux installers are streets ahead of Windows which has improved somewhat itself. I love the Debian and Ubuntu pretty jobbies way of slapping code on the box whilst still asking questions. Sadly Windows then fucks up by asking for permission to intrude on your life every time you create a new user profile. It's so needy that it is becoming embarrassing and quite hard to explain to end users.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 12, 2022 13:00 UTC (Wed) by ddevault (subscriber, #99589) [Link] (4 responses)

Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. This is completely ridiculous. Rewriting something which already works rather well just to shove an entire web browser into installer ISOs, ruin the performance on low-end hardware and dramatically reducing it for everyone else... just stop. This is an awful idea.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 12, 2022 13:46 UTC (Wed) by amacater (subscriber, #790) [Link] (2 responses)

Yes: Cockpit seems as step too far - if on Intel hardware, maybe we should outsource it to the embedded Minix ... Embedded attack surfaces, anyone?

Seriously, there need to be really good, small, quick, text only / preseeded / Kickstarted
type installs that are lightweight enough that they can be gone through in five minutes
/ scripted. If RHEL etc. really want this - it does need to be so secured from remote misuse as to be hard to use.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 12, 2022 14:18 UTC (Wed) by adam820 (subscriber, #101353) [Link] (1 responses)

> there need to be really good, small, quick, text only / preseeded / Kickstarted type installs that are lightweight enough that they can be gone through in five minutes

Why do you think that's disappearing? If it's still making use of Anaconda's core on the backend, I would presume all of that would still work, including the text-only installation mode and passing a remote URL and Kickstart URL as installation parameters on boot?

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 2:06 UTC (Thu) by m4rtink (guest, #95458) [Link]

Exactly - no impact from the Web UI on the current text UI [0] (in current form since Fedora 18) or Kickstart[1] support (available since before FC1) is really expected.

[0] https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/24/html/Insta...
[1] https://anaconda-installer.readthedocs.io/en/latest/kickstart.html

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 15:04 UTC (Thu) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

Going from 20+ years, I find that yelling stop rarely works in the Fedora world. I find it usually gets various parties to double down on whatever was not liked. . In the end, when changes like this happen the only workable solutions are:

1. Move to another OS. The Ubuntu and Debian installers have remained text only. Arch is good for people who really like to dig down into the internals of a system.
2. Fork and take over the older installer you like. Very few seem to ever take this route in the Fedora world compared to the 100 deviations of Debian there. I think it is because it is an enormous amount of work.
3. Stick with the last version of the OS you liked. Lots of people take this route with systems from Fedora 8 still showing up daily.
4. Watch them either accomplish what they set out or learn lessons about why they couldn't.
5. Just write a kickstart and use that to do the installs.
6. Use a different tool to build images that you will run.

I can also say that for the most part low-end systems are not a target for Fedora anymore. The current installer needs things like 2.5 GB or more at times.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 12, 2022 14:26 UTC (Wed) by wtarreau (subscriber, #51152) [Link] (4 responses)

Does this mean users will face a chicken-and-egg situation when trying to install or replace a browser ?

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 12, 2022 14:31 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (3 responses)

> Does this mean users will face a chicken-and-egg situation when trying to install or replace a browser ?

The linked comments on that post indicates that they are planning to use WebKit that calls into the existing Anaconda backend via D-Bus (retaining the separate TUI, kickstart etc) and works similar to the existing Cockpit desktop (https://cockpit-project.org/guide/latest/cockpit-desktop.1) Don't see a chicken and egg issue here.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 12, 2022 14:54 UTC (Wed) by wtarreau (subscriber, #51152) [Link] (2 responses)

OK thanks for explaining, because I had never heard about that cockpit thing before and am still not very clear about what it is, despite the link. So with this out of the equation suddenly the comments bring much less exploitable info :-)

Also reading "its just a simple Python wrapper over Webkit" isn't exactly something that triggers a "wow looks rock solid then" feeling inside me, but they explain they're already relying on this so it shouldn't add any extra weakness nor dependency at least.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 12, 2022 17:25 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (1 responses)

> OK thanks for explaining, because I had never heard about that cockpit thing before and am still not very clear about what it is, despite the link

https://cockpit-project.org/ is a web interface for administering servers. Think Webmin but much more modular and sane interface with support for a wide variety of things -> https://cockpit-project.org/applications.html

A glance at https://cockpit-project.org/blog/ will give you an idea of what they support as well. Sounds like the installer team wants to leverage all the work done within Cockpit project instead of maintaining their own GTK based interface.

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 2:12 UTC (Thu) by m4rtink (guest, #95458) [Link]

Yes, then plan is to use the existing - and IMHO well proven by this point - Cockpit and PatternFly[0] components to build the Anaconda Web UI.

[0] https://www.patternfly.org/v4/

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 13, 2022 23:09 UTC (Thu) by Russell (guest, #1453) [Link]

User button press -> xserver -> browser -> cockpit -> anaconda ……

This team is building a job for life. Perhaps the team needs to be smaller

Anaconda is getting a new suit (Fedora Community Blog)

Posted Jan 21, 2022 20:58 UTC (Fri) by Devinprater (guest, #144011) [Link]

Well, if it's accessible, that may make it a little easier. And if something isn't, HTML should be easier to change than a whole GUI.


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