The Linux Foundation's report on diversity, equity, and inclusionin open source

Posted Dec 23, 2021 0:16 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
In reply to: The Linux Foundation's report on diversity, equity, and inclusionin open source by mcatanzaro
Parent article: The Linux Foundation's report on diversity, equity, and inclusion in open source

> no reasonable maintainer would care about a contributor's gender

No reasonable human would care about anyone's gender under most circumstances, but sexism exists anyway. I think the extraordinary claim would be for free software to be somehow immune from it.

The Linux Foundation's report on diversity, equity, and inclusionin open source

Posted Dec 23, 2021 1:01 UTC (Thu) by mcatanzaro (subscriber, #93033) [Link] (6 responses)

OK, fair enough. But you're saying the problem rises to such an exceptional level of severity that multiple maintainers would routinely ignore pull requests from your partner, except when submitted under male names? And this problem is so widespread and extreme that your partner decided to stop contributing to *all* software projects maintained by other people? That goes way beyond typical unconscious bias. It only makes sense if free software maintainers are -- collectively -- excessively and irredeemably sexist.

I'm not saying it's impossible for a single maintainer to do this. Anecdote: back in college, somebody thought it was a good idea to inform my friend that she should be starting a family rather than pursuing a chemistry degree. This person sincerely believed that women should not hold STEM jobs or even pursue higher education. That's about as sexist as can be. But I highly doubt that it was *typical*: I only remembered this event because it was sufficiently shocking and outrageous, far from something that regularly happens. My anecdote involving extreme behavior is only believable because it describes an isolated occurrence: if I had said that happened regularly, you'd probably suspect me of disingenuity. It would be one thing to say that free software maintainers collectively exhibit *some* unconscious bias against women, but trying to argue that maintainers are collectively *extremely* biased to such a degree they would ignore good pull requests seems like a tough position.

The Linux Foundation's report on diversity, equity, and inclusionin open source

Posted Dec 23, 2021 1:10 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (5 responses)

It doesn't need to be universal (or even typical), just to happen enough times that someone feels that there are better ways to spend their time. I don't think most maintainers exhibit anywhere near this degree of bias (consciously or unconsciously), but a small number of strong negative experiences can have a disproportionate impact on which spaces people choose to participate in.

The Linux Foundation's report on diversity, equity, and inclusionin open source

Posted Dec 24, 2021 13:26 UTC (Fri) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (1 responses)

It's the classic 1% screwing it for the 99%. Even if only 1 in a 100 is a bad egg, eventually every woman/trans/etc is going to run into one and for everyone else unless they're there at that moment paying attention, they'll not see it. Online it may be totally invisible to anyone else.

On the other hand, strictly positive interactions are probably just as rare (most interactions are neutral) so the bad interactions can easily outweigh the good ones.

It's a Hard Problem, with no easy solutions.

The Linux Foundation's report on diversity, equity, and inclusionin open source

Posted Dec 29, 2021 12:15 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

And, looking back at my younger self, I can see that behaviour, although I was oblivious to it at the time.

And I doubt I've improved much, I just don't make those particular mistakes any more ...

Cheers,
Wol

The Linux Foundation's report on diversity, equity, and inclusionin open source

Posted Dec 28, 2021 15:59 UTC (Tue) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> It doesn't need to be universal (or even typical), just to happen enough times that someone feels that there are better ways to spend their time

As brilliantly shared by a friend recently:
- Is it all men?
- No, of course not. But it's all women!

The Linux Foundation's report on diversity, equity, and inclusionin open source

Posted Dec 29, 2021 12:13 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

The problem is, there is a real "how do we square the circle" problem here.

It is *natural* for us to modify the environment to suit us. Women don't feel comfortable in a male environment because, well, it's male. And vice versa!

(I was a card-carrying Girl Guider for a while :-) but I had pretty much nothing to with it, other than assisting my wife, for which I needed to be security-checked, for which I need to be card-carrying ... so while they made me welcome I didn't want to join in ...)

But the reaction of the sexes to this scenario is different - men are quite happy to let women get on with it. Women aren't. But this isn't sexism, this is Power Politics - most politics plays out in those men-only environments, and there's a vocal minority of women who want to be heard. I don't blame them - MEN DON'T HAVE THIS PROBLEM.

But men don't like it because their male-only environment is under threat. So at the end of the day, it is the blokes' problem, and we need to create an environment where women feel heard. Made all the more difficult because gender alters the definition of "heard"!!!

How DO you square the circle?

Cheers,
Wol

The Linux Foundation's report on diversity, equity, and inclusion in open source

Posted Dec 29, 2021 21:58 UTC (Wed) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

> How DO you square the circle?

You create a story - a mythology - which uses heroic deeds of the past to teach how much we need each other, how we as individual are weak but that by lending our strength to the weak around us - and only by doing that - we can collectively be strong. You include tales of rewards and punishments, of glory and ignominy, to help motivate the reluctant to act when they are comfortable because most of us ignore the reality that by the time we become uncomfortable, it is too late to act.
You teach this story to your children, and to your peers. You get reminded of it at various community events. You even spend time on a regular basis studying the implications of the story and seeing how they apply in your life today.
You create rituals and holy-days which serve as constant reminders of the core truths - "you need your neighbour" "stronger together".

You might think this looks a lot like religion, and you would be correct. Though the actual stories told by most current religions are not as fit-for-purpose as they once might have been, the unifying power of a shared story that they all attempt to realize is just as powerful as ever.

We in the FLOSS movement has a shared story about the value of openness and that story works. Unfortunately we don't have a shared story about the value of every contributor. We hear whispers of that idea, but we have no story.
To square the circle we need to write that story, and tell that story.

Which chapter will you write?