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Empowering users of GPL software

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 21, 2021 0:22 UTC (Thu) by faramir (subscriber, #2327)
Parent article: Empowering users of GPL software

Several times you write about the SFC as being a placeholder for all users and how that might cause a problem for standing to proceed with the lawsuit. IANAL, but I think SFC is deliberately not trying to to make that argument. Instead, they went out and purchased multiple Vizio televisions, determined they contain GPLed software, and requested the source to go with the binaries as required by the GPL license.
They are claiming standing for themselves as purchasers of GPLed software. That's probably why they are requesting performance under the license rather than monetary damages. It would be hard for a random purchaser to prove monetary damages, but much easier to show lack of performance of the license. If as you suggest, Vizio can't comply as they don't have the source; I don't know what SFC will request or the courts would require. Given SFC's history, I would guess one possibility would be an injunction requiring Vizio to verify they have the appropriate source for all GPLed binaries before releasing any new products. SFC might also request that Vizio cooperate with the SFC in bringing lawsuits against their suppliers. If Vizio were to violate such an injunction, I could see the courts supporting even more drastic punishments. But IANAL...


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Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 21, 2021 1:03 UTC (Thu) by Paf (subscriber, #91811) [Link] (8 responses)

I think the statement that they are placeholders is not intended to be a statement of their legal position (which I think you characterize correctly), it’s more just that they act as such in a more general sense, where the remedy they request applies to/benefits all users.

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 21, 2021 10:53 UTC (Thu) by kpfleming (subscriber, #23250) [Link] (7 responses)

Indeed, since Vizio is only obligated to provide the CCS to SFC (as the purchaser of the devices), it is not *required* for SFC to then distribute that CCS to the public, but of course they will do so, since that is the stated goal of the lawsuit.

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 21, 2021 16:49 UTC (Thu) by dxld (subscriber, #90530) [Link]

As far as the GPLv2 is concerned you don't actually have to have purchased a product to be entitled to the source code _if_ the vendor opted to use an "offer" of source code instead of physically including it with the product. https://copyleft.org/guide/monolithic/#x1-13400015.1.2

> [...] note that the last line makes the offer valid to anyone who requests the source. This is because v2 § 3(b) requires that offers be “to give any third party” a copy of the Corresponding Source.

Personally I've started to just send speculative GPL source requests to vendor's support contacts before even buying anything ;)

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 23, 2021 19:26 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (5 responses)

> Indeed, since Vizio is only obligated to provide the CCS to SFC (as the purchaser of the devices),

WHOOPS!!! That is ONLY true if Vizio supplied the software AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE!

Now that Vizio has failed to supply the software WITH the TV, the only way they can come back into compliance is to make it available to EVERYONE.

Cheers,
Wol

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 24, 2021 7:04 UTC (Sun) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (4 responses)

Could you please explain, with a specific numbered section reference, what part of the GPL(v2) you are citing? I cannot find that provision anywhere in the document.

It seems fairly obvious to me that:

* Vizio is not in compliance with any of the three options under section 3 (at least, based on the publicly-available information that I have seen about this case thusfar).
* Section 4 says that their copying is unauthorized and their license rights are terminated, because they failed to comply with section 3. But SFC does not have standing to sue over that, and isn't claiming it as a cause of action. So we can (probably?) ignore that.
* Section 5 states that Vizio has "accepted" the GPL by "modifying or distributing the program (or any work based on the Program)."
* SFC is trying to argue that this "acceptance" is a binding contract, and that Vizio must therefore comply with at least one of the three options under section 3.

I don't understand what part of this argument implies that Vizio must supply the software to everyone. Of course, it's a moot point, since anything given to the SFC will almost certainly be made public as soon as the litigation concludes. But if (for example) big tech companies start suing each other under this theory, they might behave differently, so this question really does matter and is not entirely academic.

I suppose you are arguing that they cannot "accompany" the binaries with the source, because the binaries were already distributed to the SFC? Contrary to popular belief, judges hate this kind of "well, actually" semantics hair-splitting argument. It is no longer possible to *literally* accompany the binaries with the source, but providing source after the fact is obviously the next-best thing. A judge would likely either order money damages to make up the difference (i.e. "Here's how much money the SFC lost by not having access to the source code for X months/years, and that monetary loss was caused by Vizio failing to provide source, so now Vizio has to pay the SFC that much in damages"), or just call it "de minimis" and rule that supplying the source after the fact is close enough (i.e. "The SFC didn't lose any money by not having access to the source code for X months/years, so Vizio doesn't have to pay them anything at all").

This may sound unfair, and perhaps it is, but a more interesting question, to my mind, is whether the SFC will even get as far as arguing this point in the first place. Before they can begin to argue over "accompanying" vs. "providing after the fact," the SFC first has to establish that *just* paying money damages would be inadequate to cure the violation all by itself. Money damages are usually favored as the clean and simple way to fix a contractual violation, and courts don't like ordering specific performance unless there's no reasonable alternative. So it's entirely possible that the court will rule as follows:

1. Vizio violated the contract.
2. SFC had rights under the contract, which were harmed by Vizio's breach.
3. But SFC is not in the commercial software business. They don't make software, they don't sell software, and they don't employ software developers. So they suffered no actual commercial damages as a result of the breach.
4. SFC "wins" and gets nominal damages of $1. Vizio is ordered to comply with the contract in the future, and they do so by pulling the specific product(s) that SFC purchased.
5. The end (at least until a company that *does* make software buys a Vizio product and sues over it, anyway).

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 25, 2021 19:30 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (3 responses)

Read GPL v2 s3.

It is YOUR choice whether you comply with 3a or 3b (Vizio does not have the option of 3c).

They did not comply with 3a (supplying the code with the TV), therefore they have to comply with 3b (supplying the code to ANYONE who asks).

Read 3b carefully - it says "ANYONE who ASKS ...", not anyone who bought a TV ...

Cheers,
Wol

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 25, 2021 19:33 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Note that SFC is claiming "specific performance", namely saying that "Vizio say they have a licence under the GPL. Please, Mr Judge, will you tell them that if they have a licence under the GPL, they have to do what it says, namely comply with Section 3b and give us (AND anybody else who asks) a WORKING and CORRECT copy of the code ..."

Cheers,
Wol

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 25, 2021 23:28 UTC (Mon) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (1 responses)

> They did not comply with 3a (supplying the code with the TV), therefore they have to comply with 3b (supplying the code to ANYONE who asks).

I already addressed this in my comment.

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 25, 2021 23:38 UTC (Mon) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

But to further elaborate: They did not comply with either 3a ("Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code...") or 3b ("Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years,...") because they did not accompany the TV with anything at all. So now they have to retrospectively comply with one of 3a or 3b in order to cure their violation (and they might also have to pay damages, but no judge is going to order them to invent a time machine). There is no term in the GPL which says it has to be 3b.

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 23, 2021 8:33 UTC (Sat) by shentino (guest, #76459) [Link] (2 responses)

If I'm not mistaken violating an injunction could result in sanctions or even visio being held in contempt.

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 23, 2021 9:59 UTC (Sat) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (1 responses)

Assuming the infringing goods aren't made in the USA, the normal sanction would be to hold up imports until the injunction is complied with.

I don't know where Vizio has their manufacturing facilities - or indeed if they just use contract manufacturers like much of the industry - but they could find themselves unable to import new product to ship, effectively killing the company.

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Oct 23, 2021 19:29 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

If the injunction covers the illegal component (not just Vizio TVs), it's a lot more than just Vizio with their imports at risk...

(And if Vizio has any sense, they WILL drag their supplier in to this - "comply or your American market will evaporate!")

Cheers,
Wol

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Nov 27, 2021 18:42 UTC (Sat) by mcortese (guest, #52099) [Link] (4 responses)

I think the "standing" argument is that there is no contract between Vizio and the end user, which SFC is or represents. The contract that's being voilated was established between Vizio and the copyright holder, so a court might dismiss the case because SFC is not one of the parties making the agreement.

In other words, A and B sign a contract where A gives something to A and B commits to give something to C, then B fails its part of the agreement. Has C any legal standing for sueing B?

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Nov 29, 2021 13:44 UTC (Mon) by geert (subscriber, #98403) [Link] (3 responses)

Let's find an analogous situation from the tangible world...

A rich benefactor dies. His will states that the local city inherits his big park, on the condition it must be open to the general public.
The city installs a big fence, which is always closed. Can the general public sue the city?

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Nov 29, 2021 16:52 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

In the UK, I think that would be called "Breach of Trust".

Quite what could be done about it, I'm not sure, but in UK law the town would not be the owner. I suspect, if asked, the courts would force the town to hand the park over to a committee who would run and open the park on behalf of the public (NOT the town). The problem with this, of course, is the town would be under no obligation to fund any of this.

This is quite a good analogy it looks like - the courts should force Vizio to hand over the source :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Dec 10, 2021 11:51 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

This has actually happened, with at least one London local authority fencing off a park deeded to it decades earlier (specifically for use as a park) on the grounds that it was used by drug dealers (ignoring, uh, all the non-drug-dealers who used it too). There was no need for a lawsuit: the torrent of outrage forced a rapid backpedal.

Empowering users of GPL software

Posted Dec 10, 2021 12:26 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Our local version of that is the NHS tried to close our local cottage hospital, with the intention of selling off the land.

Except that land had been given to the town explicitly for a hospital.

It's now a GP surgery, minor injury, and X-ray unit. I can't remember the history but the X-Ray unit is very interesting, being located in a bunker from the WW2/Cold War era. No danger of X-rays leaking from there ... :-)

Cheers,
Wol


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