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30 Years ago...

On August 25, 1991, Linus Torvalds posted his famous message to the comp.os.minix USENET group:

I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones. This has been brewing since april, and is starting to get ready.

After all of these years, it still feels like it's "starting to get ready"; what a ride it has been.


to post comments

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 13:24 UTC (Wed) by andi8086 (guest, #153876) [Link] (1 responses)

For me it feels like it is quite ready nowadays :)

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 26, 2021 9:58 UTC (Thu) by cpitrat (subscriber, #116459) [Link]

Still not as big and professional as GNU though...

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 14:20 UTC (Wed) by pasch (guest, #153804) [Link]

Hi, everyone, my comments....
from nobody, to all big server of the big tech... that is a evolution!.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 14:27 UTC (Wed) by eplanit (guest, #121769) [Link] (16 responses)

Most people under-appreciate the depth of Linus's contribution. Imagine a world where there was no alternative to M$ or Apple -- it would be (even more) like the former Soviet Union.

We need a new Linus to create a viable, competitive alternative in the mobile space. Android is a good starting point, but so far no alternatives seem that viable.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 15:10 UTC (Wed) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

One of the things that made Linux possible is that PC:s at the time were a relatively standard and open hardware target. The first Linux kernels ran only on 386 -based ISA PC clones, and I recall Linus did not even plan to port it to other CPU:s initially.

The problem with Linux on mobiles is they are all very different, with proprietary and undocumented chips.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 17:32 UTC (Wed) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] (14 responses)

If Linus hadn't come along, one of the BSDs probably would have taken its place as the Free Software OS of choice. One of the things that gave Linux its opening was that the BSDs were still tied up in legal issues with ATT, but the first release of NetBSD was only about a year and a half later. Linus hadn't come along, the pent-up demand for an Intel-compatible, Free Software Unix clone would have latched onto BSD once it became available, and it likely would have filled the niche Linux does today.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 22:16 UTC (Wed) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

That'd be an interesting alternative history. I wonder what happens if the de facto standard PC Unix isn't under the GPL.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 26, 2021 0:18 UTC (Thu) by jmclnx (guest, #72456) [Link] (2 responses)

You are probably right, but I think it would have taking a lot longer to get to where we are now. IIRC hardware requirements for BSD back then required a lot more memory. So less requirements was probably also a factor with Linux. Memory was a lot more expensive then I believe.

Also I think the infighting that spawned the various BSDs may have slowed things down. But I wonder if we would be in a completely different world.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 26, 2021 3:13 UTC (Thu) by willy (subscriber, #9762) [Link]

I remember Alan Cox saying that whichever BSD he was interested in running initially required a 387. Linux didn't, so ...

Funny how Linus' aversion to floating point has served him well for 30 years :-)

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 26, 2021 16:57 UTC (Thu) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

One of the hard things with hypotheticals like this is whether people would have made the same kinds of decisions in the alternate universe. Would BSD have been more willing to work with less expensive hardware had Linux not been available? Would the same kind of fragmentation happened with a bigger userbase, or could the problems with fragmentation been even bigger? It's possible that the different flavors of BSD would have learned to work together better, to the point that they behaved more like Linux distributions behave today. It's a really fascinating hypothetical.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 31, 2021 6:12 UTC (Tue) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link] (9 responses)

And we'd all be using CVS, or, at best, subversion.. yikes.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 31, 2021 9:08 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (8 responses)

Not necessarily. Back when Linus was designing git, there were several other distributed VCS that were _almost_ up to git's level.

In particular, Monotone was _almsot_ ready: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotone_(software) - I was playing with it in early 2005 for personal projects, and it was awesome but buggy. Had the history turned out to be a bit different, we'd be using Monotone-based repos.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 31, 2021 9:50 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (5 responses)

Had the history turned out to be a bit different, we'd be using Monotone-based repos.

Or Mercurial.

The main reason Git took off outside the Linux kernel community is that ordinary programmers thought that if they just used Linus Torvalds's uber-hacker tool, they would themselves become uber-hackers like Linus Torvalds. Git was, in effect, the very expensive DSLR camera of the VCS world, which ordinary people buy because they believe that using a β€œprofessional” camera will make them better photographers. (Nowadays of course there is ancillary infrastructure like Github which is convenient and useful enough for people to put up with Git, and which doesn't exist for other VCSs.)

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 31, 2021 12:11 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

> The main reason Git took off outside the Linux kernel community is that ordinary programmers thought that if they just used Linus Torvalds's uber-hacker tool, they would themselves become uber-hackers like Linus Torvalds

I doubt this was a serious reason. Git performed much better for a while (I haven't compared them recently) and large influential (at that time) software projects including Ruby on Rails and later Android etc switched to Git. GitHub took off making adoption much more easier.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 31, 2021 13:21 UTC (Tue) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

From what I remember, git was much less opinionated at the time. We had some hg repositories internally and I ended up using git-hg to interact with them because I found mercurial so frustrating. If you were working on a few small patches at the same time you needed something like the mq extension which gives you sort of 2nd-class commits, with a completely different API. As soon as you pushed something to a server the commit got marked immutable, so you could never setup a buildbot to try-build your patches.

I never understood the point of "immutable changesets". It feels like working with one hand tied behind your back.

Git is a "stupid content tracker" and thus made it possible to fit it to a workflow that worked for us, rather than what the tool wanted. For me git vs hg was like night and day. Also, the git index is IMO was a real innovation, that you could build commits piecewise.

Looks like hg is less strict these days, but once you've got everything to git the barrier to switch back is huge.

30 Years ago...

Posted Sep 1, 2021 16:45 UTC (Wed) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link]

FWIW I started using git, and not the other alternatives, because I'd heard of git and not the other alternatives :) After all, Linus Torvalds has quite a big profile.

30 Years ago...

Posted Sep 1, 2021 17:31 UTC (Wed) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link]

"The main reason Git took off outside the Linux kernel community is that ordinary programmers thought that if they just used Linus Torvalds's uber-hacker tool, they would themselves become uber-hackers like Linus Torvalds."

No, that was not the case.

30 Years ago...

Posted Sep 2, 2021 7:49 UTC (Thu) by gioele (subscriber, #61675) [Link]

> The main reason Git took off outside the Linux kernel community is that ordinary programmers thought that if they just used Linus Torvalds's uber-hacker tool, they would themselves become uber-hackers like Linus Torvalds.

My recollection of the events (I was in the bzr camp) was that people switched from hg/monotone/arch/bzr to Git because

1) Git was blazing faster (milliseconds vs seconds for `$VCS status` = it can be integrated in PS1)
2) Git was less opinionated (just use whichever branch workflow you want)
3) Git was more tolerant of errors (git rebase).

Point 3 was especially important for me. Git rebase gave you the ability to polish your final results, instead of forcing you to show "how the sausage was made".

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 31, 2021 14:46 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (1 responses)

Was it though? I remember trying to clone libpurple back in 2010 and it taking an *hour* to sync from nothing to a "let me work" state. It wasn't network connectivity either. Later I found a sqlite database "seed" that allowed the syncing algorithm to have a headstart, but if it was "almost" ready in 2005, I shudder to think on where it was headed.

Also, wasn't Monotone breaking repository formats regularly? (IIRC, 2005-era Git works on new repositories except for the packref format and new hash algorithms, both of which can be ignored if one wants to use ancient software to clone modern repos (of course you'll probably then have issues with TLS algorithm negotiations, but that's everyone).

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 31, 2021 16:50 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Monotone used file-level SHA-1 IDs, so it had way more overhead than git. Each file required a separate operation to sync. It also used SHA-1 for the whole repo for a version, just like git.

There were some obvious optimizations that were missed, but the development of Monotone more-or-less died after git.

It also turned out that an SQL database for VCS data storage was not a good idea in general, because of all the overhead it brings compared to plain files.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 15:03 UTC (Wed) by jpfrancois (subscriber, #65948) [Link] (1 responses)

Looks like there is a similarity between people and software project : there is more hype and excitement when reaching 20 than when reaching thirty.
Let's hope for a nice 50 years birthday :)

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 15:05 UTC (Wed) by jpfrancois (subscriber, #65948) [Link]

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 15:53 UTC (Wed) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link]

Happy birthday Linux! πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚πŸŽ‚

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 16:35 UTC (Wed) by jheiss (subscriber, #62556) [Link]

30 years? No, that must be a typo. It wasn't that long ago? Oh wow, time flies. (Although I didn't start using Linux until 1994, so it hasn't quite been 30 for me.)

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 17:57 UTC (Wed) by csigler (subscriber, #1224) [Link] (2 responses)

[... introductory music...]
"It was thirty years ago today,
Sergeant Torvalds taught the band to play..."

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 18:47 UTC (Wed) by teknohog (guest, #70891) [Link] (1 responses)

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 27, 2021 3:22 UTC (Fri) by csigler (subscriber, #1224) [Link]

Hilarious! Obviously had not seen that 10 years ago πŸ™„ Thank you πŸ™‚

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 19:27 UTC (Wed) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link] (3 responses)

Around 1992, or 1993, our neighbour in the converted convent school we were living in, in Haarlem, the Netherlands, gave us a stack of floppy disks.

He had done that before, but those floppies contained Nethack, and that hooked my wife.

This stack was SLS, and it hooked me... Using a calculator to compute X11 modelines. Trying to use that weird US universities attempt at re-discovering productivity software -- I don't even remember the name. Seeing Sun's OpenWindow GUI coming up, going down the Breestraat in Leiden to get the relevant O'Reilly books. Studying ncurses, xlib, gtk... Finding Qt.

And, then, ending up about thirty years later being the maintainer of a free software productivity application, that's Krita, which is being used by millions of people.

Only not on Linux.

Roller-coaster ain't the right epitheth.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 25, 2021 21:21 UTC (Wed) by noahm (subscriber, #40155) [Link] (2 responses)

Pretty sure that weird office suite you were using was the Andrew User Interface System from CMU. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~AUIS/

I remember giving that a try for a while on Slackware in the mid 90’s, but it didn’t really stick.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 26, 2021 7:06 UTC (Thu) by halla (subscriber, #14185) [Link]

Yes, that's the one!

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 26, 2021 9:16 UTC (Thu) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link]

I love the opening line: "sources for andrew-8.0 are now available (and in tarred-compressed form). However, they have not been completely tested" - and the linked files are timestamped 1997.

Snark aside, it is genuinely heartening to see decades-old web pages still up and (mostly) working.

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 26, 2021 1:38 UTC (Thu) by unixbhaskar (guest, #44758) [Link]

Wooohoo! what a ride I am having with it for the past 21 years ....first installed in on my desktop (IBM NetVista A22p) was on 15th of Jan , 2000 ....and voila!... never look back .

Loving it ....whatever little ...mundane ...ordianry...work I do with it day to day basis.

Plus ,running it on Desktop/Laptop for long without other OS'es presence ...sheer joy!

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 26, 2021 9:19 UTC (Thu) by edeloget (subscriber, #88392) [Link] (1 responses)

Mmmmm... Sounds interesting. Maybe I'll give it a try some day, when it'll be mature enough :)

30 Years ago...

Posted Aug 28, 2021 21:37 UTC (Sat) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link]

I'm using it to post this comment. It seems to be working fine. (:


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