Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
People's interests aren't constant and neither are their FLoC IDs. Currently, FLoC IDs seem to be recomputed every week or so. This means that if a tracker is able to use other information to link up user visits over time, they can use the combination of FLoC IDs in week 1, week 2, etc. to distinguish individual users. This is a particular concern because it works even with modern anti-tracking mechanisms such as Firefox's Total Cookie Protection (TCP). TCP is intended to prevent trackers from correlating visits across sites but not multiple visits to one site. FLoC restores cross-site tracking even if users have TCP enabled."
Posted Jun 12, 2021 12:35 UTC (Sat)
by ausserirdischesindgesund (guest, #152763)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Jun 13, 2021 18:45 UTC (Sun)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Cheers,
Posted Jun 14, 2021 9:45 UTC (Mon)
by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958)
[Link] (5 responses)
Interestingly, in chrome even if you disable all cookies in the settings, they will work as normal but be deleted when closing the browser or tab.
I know because I wanted to demonstrate to a student that without cookies login doesn't work. And he proved me wrong because chrome doesn't really disable cookie so logins keep working.
Posted Jun 14, 2021 11:28 UTC (Mon)
by eduperez (guest, #11232)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Jun 14, 2021 12:53 UTC (Mon)
by geert (subscriber, #98403)
[Link] (3 responses)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCP#Computing
All 3 character acronyms have been taken, multiple times...
Posted Jun 14, 2021 13:42 UTC (Mon)
by Kluge (subscriber, #2881)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Jun 14, 2021 21:25 UTC (Mon)
by eru (subscriber, #2753)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jun 17, 2021 17:15 UTC (Thu)
by nescafe (subscriber, #45063)
[Link]
Posted Jun 13, 2021 7:42 UTC (Sun)
by oldtomas (guest, #72579)
[Link]
Google is in that business. They'll defend it as well as they can, the soft way and the hard way.
We /should/ know those patterns from Big Tobacco, Big Chem and Big Coal. They don't hesitate to do law laundering or science laundering. In the end game (Google isn't there yet), there is character assassination, murder and other ugly things.
On another more geeky note -- what about Distributed FLoC? No, I don't think about making the calculations in a distributed fashion for Google -- that's what FLoC does already. I was rather thinking of a peer-to-peer exchange of FLoC vectors to report data which /look/ like FLoC but might be (a mix of) someone else's...
There was (many years ago) a field test in a little town in Norway. Customers at a grocery store got one of those cards which afforded them some discount if presented at the cashier.
The reaction? People set up a basket outside the shop, where they could throw in the card they just used and pick up another one at the next visit.
I think we need more of this.
Posted Jun 14, 2021 13:19 UTC (Mon)
by josh (subscriber, #17465)
[Link] (33 responses)
I'm trying to figure out why a Mozilla blog post would think that a sentence like this has any place in their conclusion. From Mozilla's perspective, this should just be viewed as one more form of tracking.
Posted Jun 14, 2021 16:06 UTC (Mon)
by flussence (guest, #85566)
[Link]
Posted Jun 15, 2021 2:16 UTC (Tue)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (31 responses)
Posted Jun 15, 2021 5:32 UTC (Tue)
by josh (subscriber, #17465)
[Link] (1 responses)
2) Why would I want ads to attempt to be *more* effective (typically badly)?
Posted Jun 15, 2021 10:17 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
1) They're ads
2) They're typically for more of the same eg
Cheers,
Posted Jun 15, 2021 12:12 UTC (Tue)
by oldtomas (guest, #72579)
[Link] (28 responses)
I can't even fathom how someone's brain can be wired in such a radically different way than mine (please, don't take it personally. I'm trying to understand).
Your question reminds me of Mark Zuckerberg's 2018 epic "Senator, we run ads" before congress.
To try to offer a bridge: if I don't want targeted ads, then they are in themselves a privacy issue.
Makes sense to you?
Posted Jun 15, 2021 14:51 UTC (Tue)
by madscientist (subscriber, #16861)
[Link] (27 responses)
Now, would you prefer these ads that you will see to be totally random and hence probably unrelated to anything you might be interested in? Or would you prefer these ads to be related to something that interests you and that you might find useful?
Posted Jun 15, 2021 15:15 UTC (Tue)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (18 responses)
Posted Jun 15, 2021 15:18 UTC (Tue)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (15 responses)
You've just described one form of targeted ads - targeting based on the environment the ad is within, which in turn is based on correlating the likely visitors to the website with the advertiser's target audience.
If targeted ads are not allowed, then targeting based on the expected audience of a website is part of that.
Posted Jun 15, 2021 16:55 UTC (Tue)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Jun 16, 2021 9:22 UTC (Wed)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (6 responses)
In which case, we're already moving on from "targeted ads are always a privacy problem" to "some forms of targeting are a privacy problem".
Posted Jun 16, 2021 11:09 UTC (Wed)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Jun 16, 2021 16:44 UTC (Wed)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (2 responses)
One challenge here is that there are about 3 (Google, Amazon, Facebook, can't think of any others) companies that have sufficient data on viewers as it is that they can do deeply personalised context-aware ads without taking part in the data markets. If we're not careful, we end up in a situation where the big established players can get far better results per $ than any other ad placement firm. I am not convinced that this is a net improvement.
Posted Jun 16, 2021 23:06 UTC (Wed)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jun 17, 2021 9:40 UTC (Thu)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link]
Personally, I think that a better starting point is to take some points from the EU's GDPR, and add in extras to make advertising companies squirm.
From the GDPR, I'd take:
I would then add the following:
The combination means that someone who's privacy conscious can put quite a lot of load on an advertising data collector by themselves - they're stopping you using their data, but they're demanding full details of what you learn about them. You're forced into radical transparency: I know not just what you collected about me, but also where you collected it from, and it's up to everyone in the chain to maintain provenance. Further, because of the joint and several liability rule, you're in bother if anyone in the handling chain didn't bother with provenance.
Finally, it's near-terminal to the data marketplaces, because of the liability rule; sharing data with another company means that you are now liable for their process failures around data, not just your own, and you can't shield yourself by creating a small disposable company to do the sharing. Thus, if I buy your data from Google, then breach the rules, you can get Google to pay you a %age of their annual turnover. That's a big payday for you, even if I'm small fry and couldn't even pay the minimum fine.
Posted Jun 17, 2021 19:32 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
But the distinction is clear. Ads targetting A PERSON are clearly a privacy problem - they involve processing PII.
Ads targetting a website, and its typical audience, have no PII involvement and as such can't be a privacy problem.
So the distinction is basically based on "what is the target?" - a webite or a person.
Cheers,
Posted Jun 17, 2021 19:54 UTC (Thu)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link]
But all ads target people, not websites. The target for advertisers on LWN is not LWN, but the advertiser's expectation of the group of people who read LWN; that may well include PII as part of making sure that certain people are in that group.
Posted Jun 17, 2021 20:56 UTC (Thu)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link] (6 responses)
Another really critical point is who profits from the targeting. Targeting ads at the right audience is very valuable, and whoever it is who knows how to do it will be the one who gets most of the advertising money. If the targeting comes from tracking individual users across the web, then the companies that do the tracking will make most of the money, and the sites where the ads are placed will get less. If the targeting is based on putting ads on sites that attract a target audience, then the site that attracts the desirable audience will make most of the money, and the ad broker will make relatively little.
IOW, Google and Facebook are fabulously profitable because their ability to track users means they get to keep most of the ad money. If you eliminate tracking, the big ad networks are suddenly a lot less valuable and the sites hosting the ads are more valuable. I think this would be a great thing. I'd love to see more money go to the people who are generating the content I like and less going to companies who track me across the web.
Posted Jun 18, 2021 7:43 UTC (Fri)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (5 responses)
The other risk, however, is that the big ad firms get a large proportion of the money because that's actually where the value is, and ad spend online would nosedive without the tracking.
However, the other possibility we have to account for is that the big three are keeping such a large slice because that's where the benefit is, and if you take out tracking, sites get the same revenue as today (or less), because the advertisers aren't spending as much now that they can't show a result via tracking.
Yes, that means the sites get a higher proportion of the total spend - but if (random numbers ahead) Google get 90% and the sites get 10%, but without Google's tracking, advertisers will reduce their online ad spend by 90% and it gets split 50/50 between the ad firms and the sites, then the sites are worse off despite getting 50% of the revenue, because they're getting 50% of a pie that's the size of their old income.
Posted Jun 18, 2021 11:12 UTC (Fri)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jun 18, 2021 14:42 UTC (Fri)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link]
You're depriving the ad tech industry *and* the sites of money - those that depend on ads are losing 50% of their revenue in this situation.
I too, would prefer to see less advertising and more spend on the products and services, but I fear that less money on ads and Internet sites means more money on executive bonuses and lobbying.
Also, I'm trying to point out the flip side - there is no guarantee that getting rid of the ad tech industry will benefit the majority. It could go either way, and if destroying the ad tech industry is the goal, then you need to be clear that you're OK if the fallout from that is damaging to currently free/cheap websites.
Basically, the current Internet ads system is evolved, not designed - and as with all evolved systems, changes may not have the intended effect.
Posted Jun 18, 2021 15:49 UTC (Fri)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link] (2 responses)
I accept this is a possibility, but I think it's unlikely. The companies doing the advertising know they need to advertise, and they need to advertise where the people are, which is online. There's no indication that overall advertising has gone up drastically with the promise of tracking, so it's hard to believe it will crash without it. Spending online has gone up drastically, but that's because the amount of time people spend online has gone up drastically. There's also a strong indication that companies are still interested in old-fashioned targeting, e.g. sponsored content on YouTube. The latter is a good example, because everything I've seen says sponsored content is more profitable for content creators than YouTube's ads.
Posted Jun 19, 2021 1:55 UTC (Sat)
by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jun 20, 2021 19:50 UTC (Sun)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link]
I don't think that's necessarily the right comparison. The question is what will happen if ad tracking becomes legally or technically unavailable. We know that advertisers were willing to advertise before there was tracking, and we know that they continue to advertise in ways that don't depend on online tracking. That suggests they would likely continue to advertise even if they lost their ability to track. They would just go back to their old, less effective ways of targeting and figuring out which ads are effective.
Posted Jun 15, 2021 21:18 UTC (Tue)
by JanC_ (guest, #34940)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jun 16, 2021 1:10 UTC (Wed)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link]
Posted Jun 15, 2021 15:27 UTC (Tue)
by excors (subscriber, #95769)
[Link]
I think it's not just a binary choice of seeing ads vs not seeing ads - it's more like a choice between:
1) Seeing 1000 targeted ads per day, where each ad has a 0.1% chance of being interesting enough for you to click on it and maybe spend some money.
Online advertising doesn't seem lucrative enough (except for the ad networks) for many sites to do a 1:1 swap from targeted to untargeted ads and remain sustainable - instead the ads will become more numerous and more intrusive to make up for their lack of effectiveness. In that context, choice 1 sounds a lot less annoying.
Posted Jun 15, 2021 15:55 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Or - choice 3 - do you want to see a load of ads that are "close but no cigar" and pretty much guaranteed to piss you off?
If I see ads that are related to the site, no probs. If I see ads that are clearly aimed at me but miss, it's likely to put me off both the ads and the site ...
Cheers,
Posted Jun 15, 2021 16:44 UTC (Tue)
by josh (subscriber, #17465)
[Link] (5 responses)
Then I report a bug on my adblocker's filter list.
> Now, would you prefer these ads that you will see to be totally random and hence probably unrelated to anything you might be interested in?
Yes, because that makes it even easier to give them less attention and treat them as the noise they are.
Posted Jun 15, 2021 18:12 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (4 responses)
Cheers,
Posted Jun 17, 2021 1:45 UTC (Thu)
by kenmoffat (subscriber, #4807)
[Link] (3 responses)
More than 99% of online advertising is counter-productive for the advertisers.
Posted Jun 17, 2021 22:15 UTC (Thu)
by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75)
[Link] (2 responses)
The worst use of advertising money is when they keep trying to sell you something you already bought. I could understand if Company A doesn't know what I bought from Company B, but when a company keeps trying to sell me something I bought from them, it makes me think they don't know their business.
Posted Jun 18, 2021 8:23 UTC (Fri)
by farnz (subscriber, #17727)
[Link] (1 responses)
Related to that is companies not noticing that they can't sell me a $thing, but could sell me $thing accessories - if you've spent $2,000 on a new camera body, you won't be in the market for another camera body soon. But you might be in the market for a $800 lens that fits your camera body.
Posted Jun 18, 2021 8:52 UTC (Fri)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
And you WON'T be in the market for an £800 lens that DOESN'T fit your camera body.
That's what I mean about ads that are very good at grabbing your attention, but instantly piss you off ...
Cheers,
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Wol
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
2a) Presents I bought someone so I have no clue whether the new ads are for stuff they have or haven't got already
2b) They're badly targeted, encouraging me to buy Canon accessories for my Nikon Camera(s)
2c) I've already bought one, why on earth would I want a second?
Wol
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Given: there is no privacy issue with ads.
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Wol
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
The other risk, however, is that the big ad firms get a large proportion of the money because that's actually where the value is, and ad spend online would nosedive without the tracking.
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
> Given: there is no privacy issue with ads.
>
> Now, would you prefer these ads that you will see to be totally random and hence probably unrelated to anything you might be interested in? Or would you prefer these ads to be related to something that interests you and that you might find useful?
2) Seeing 5000 untargeted ads per day, where each ad has a 0.02% chance of being interesting enough for you to click on it and maybe spend some money.
3) Not seeing ads, but all the ad-supported sites shut down because they're not getting enough revenue from each visitor, and very few sites are able to survive off subscription revenue alone.
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Wol
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Wol
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Privacy analysis of FLoC (Mozilla blog)
Wol